Facts aye? The Germans won WW2, by your thinking since I said they won this is a fact?.?.?.?.?.
Last night I tested the idea of a P51D turning with a G2 against Rud3Boi, right off the merge the P51 had a huge advantage since it has better high speed handles(Merge alt 5K, well below P51s preforming alt). I used flaps only when needed to get around on stalls and ended up getting a few shot ops per a fight(only ran 2) As the fights decreased in speed of course the 109 started handle and out climbing the pony very easily....but in the first fight I had enough time to sneak away and get good separation.....which I didn't utilize because I wasnt going to waste Ru3es time, turned back in for more fighting time.
Second fight we got in a downward spiral with eachother after merge, Pony was owning but I can't close....Ru3e did the right thing and pulled vertical once we were slow, I made a "Mistake" (notice the mistake) and got my ride too slow pulling for a shot.
I stand by my original statement, Pony shouldn't lose fight....but will possibly not get kill on 109 either(if said sticks are equal in flight ability)
Nice flights Ru3e 
Re: P51 Vs 109
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 09:35:06 AM »
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
I have looked at the charts of the P51. but has any one ever known that the deceleration rate for the 51 is crap ? In real life the P51 could hold it's speed in a tight turn way better than a 109. AND every one talks about climb, but it seems to be 2 different types of climb, zoom climb and vertical. in my opinion the vertical climb and the deceleration rate in a turn to me is not what the Pony should be. NOW with the 109 every thing is the opposite. IT holds it speed way to well both fast and low speeds and can vertical climb almost as good as a Mark 9
Vendetta, Be prepaired to back up your claims with some data. Right now everything that you've quoted as being fact is Anecdotal at best. Do you have some actual test data and some examples of what you're describing? Lets start with this one first. "In real life the P51 could hold it's speed in a tight turn way better than a 109" What does that mean? Do you mean that the 51 is bleeding speed faster than the 109 in a tight turn? If that's the case you might need to consider the following. Anecdotally speaking the 109 should be able to out turn the 51 in "what you call a tight turn" So we will get into an area called Best Corner Speed. Do you understand what best corner speed is in the 51? Do you know what corner speed actually is?
Here is the definition so that you can really understand the concept.
Corner speed is an important factor of maximum turn performance. Corner speed is defined as the minimum airspeed at which the maximum allowable g can be generated. At corner speed,the aircraft can attain its maximum turn rate. For our purposes, 280 KIAS is the T-2C cornerspeed. Below this speed, if you attempt to pull more "G", the aircraft will enter buffet and stall at its aerodynamic limit. This results in an increase in the turn radius and a decrease in the turnrate. On the other hand, if the aircraft is maneuvered above the corner speed, the max allowable"G" becomes the limiting factor. The excess airspeed (above corner speed) will result in a turnradius increase and a turn rate decrease.Knowing and flying the corner speed and the appropriate AOAs will give the fighter the most bang for the buck: the best turn performance for the minimum amount of energy loss
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
to better explain: About the P-51 stalling much sooner in a turning fight, not true.
The fact is the 51s low speed handling is going to be worse that the 109. The 51 was one of the first planes to have a laminar flow wing and very high wing loading. The 51 will stall out before the 109. The 109 also has high lift devices (leading edge slats) which open and low speeds. Notice where they are. They are in front of the Ailerons which provide roll at very low airspeeds and critical AOA. The 51 was designed to fight very high and with a lot of speed. The 109 was adapted over time from the 30s when Dog Fighting was important and later modified to defend and kill Bombers. Late war on, the 109 was considered to be inferior in a lot of ways to the 51. In game that's still pretty consistant with what was true in RL.
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
Our museum flies P-51Ds and Spanish Casas (Me 109G with a Merlin). The Casa loses energy quickly in hard turns. The P-51D doesn't.
Again this is a very Anecdotal statment. I suspect this is someone telling you this and you don't have any real data. If you do please share.
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
In flight, the P-51D will easily turn with the Casa and close except at very low speeds, and low speeds are not included in combat maneuvers. So ... if the speed DID get very low, then yes, the P-51D will stall a few mph sooner. The message is clear to the Mustang pilot, don't turn with a 109 at 140 mph or less. Mustang pilots learned that early.
The only real advantage the Casa has is sustained rate of climb. In a zoom climb, the P-51D is better.
the 109 should have it's turn acceleration lowered.
Again no data... So far I don't see any evidence to support this claim. Here is another way to put it. Initially the 51 should be able to turn with the 109 however in a prolonged sustained turn if each pilot was flying Best Corner Speed the 109 will out turn the 51. For me that's how it is in game. The 51 will reach it's stall quicker than the 109 and lose the turn fight. The key is understanding the concept of Best Corner Speed.
A second quote:
History Channel's Dogfights is not a reliable source of information. Also, I think you are under a strange assumption that horsepower alone determines energy retention in turns. If you are thinking about acceleration, it might be better to look at a figure like the power to weight ratio. The Bf-109 is so much lighter than the P-51 that it will obviously be able to accelerate better. A good climb rate is a given for a light plane with a powerful engine like the Bf-109.
The people who say that the Bf-109 turns better are what you could call "experts." People like Mark Hanna. I'm sure you know who that is. He flew that REAL restored Bf-109G-10, not a Spanish faux 109 that has a different, weaker engine and a lot of extra drag from its modified airframe, cowling, etc. With him having flown the P-51s so many times, I trust his opinion when he says that the Bf-109G could easily outturn the P-51 at low and medium speeds (typical dogfight speeds). He noted that because of the P-51's speed, it should be able to stay safe from the Bf-109 by keeping its speed up, extending, and refusing to dogfight, where the G-10 would have an advantage.
To me its pretty clear, unless a 51 enters a dogfight with abundant of speed (i.e diving from 5k above) it has no chance to beat a 109g.
