Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fbEagle on June 26, 2012, 12:13:36 AM
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Just bought a brand new 30-06 remington model 770. was out shooting and couldnt get a group. Put it in a vice and still couldnt get a group. Im thinking it has to be the scope, im still using the one that came with it and it was only $300. I was wondering if anyone else has been having an issue with this particular gun? We were drawn for bear permits for this fall and i certainly want to know that i can rely on the gun when Yogi decides i look tastier than a picnic basket lol
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Just bought a brand new 30-06 remington model 770. was out shooting and couldnt get a group. Put it in a vice and still couldnt get a group. Im thinking it has to be the scope, im still using the one that came with it and it was only $300. I was wondering if anyone else has been having an issue with this particular gun? We were drawn for bear permits for this fall and i certainly want to know that i can rely on the gun when Yogi decides i look tastier than a picnic basket lol
Unfortunately the 770 is variable in terms of quality. That scope it came with could very likely be drifting but the rifle is notorious for having issues. Go ask on any gun or hunting site.
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ya the rem 770, ruger xs7/xl7 and savage axis are not good economy rifles. if you were going to buy an economy rifle you would have been better off with a mossberg 100atr or stevens 200.
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When you say "cant get a group" exactly what do you mean? What happens on your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5'th shots?
Tell us what kind of ammo are you using? What kind of scope? And mounts? But we really need to know exactly whats going on group-wise.
OK, I did some searching since Im not familiar with the model. Most of my scopes are Leo Varix-lll's but I do have one Varix-ll and consider that a starting point. Generally if the bad groups are repeatable its the rifle. If there is no rhyme or reason to the grouping its the glass or mounts. Most of all when different loads are used. I'd NEVER take a cheap Bushnell scope out Bear hunting. I'd never take one out deer hunting cause I dont believe in cheap glass. The thing is Ive seen this rifle for sale for $284, and Bro, anytime a rifle/scope combo goes for $284, especially from Remington, they are cutting corners. And with this one the "corner" is the glass. I'd have to see the targets to tell you for sure tho.
Crip a 400 lb Black Bear and as your going into the wood after it then tell me the cheap rifle/glass was worth it. Im sorry to lay it out like that but there it is.
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savage axis
A lot of folks around here have had good luck with the Savage Axis with decent glass. It's a clunky, ugly rifle but they are supposed to do well from what I've read on the Texas Hunting Forum and The High Road.
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A lot of folks around here have had good luck with the Savage Axis with decent glass. It's a clunky, ugly rifle but they are supposed to do well from what I've read on the Texas Hunting Forum and The High Road.
short range ~200 yards not much of a problem but out to 300-400 yards, they are inconsistent. not fond of the workmanship on them either.
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Need more info to be sure, but if there isn't any pattern at all, like it puts one round on center target, the next is on the top right corner, the third is lower right, fourth is an inch above canter, and hitting far left, then we can narrow it down to a couple things.
1) you can't shoot for hell
2) its the scope/mounting
3) you've accuired Franken-rifle, and the makers just cobbled together an assortment of Ill-fitting parts, stuck the trigger assembly from a Mossberg shotgun in there for good measure, and packaged it up as a 770.
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I am assuming you know how to sight a rifle. But just incase.......
1- bag your rifle or put it in a bench rest.
2- remove bolt
3- sight the target through your barrel......looking throught the barrel at the target.
4- then look through your scope to see where it is sighted in at.
5- adjust scope with out moving your rifle to were it is centered on bulls eye.
6- shoot and adjust your scope from there.
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short range ~200 yards not much of a problem but out to 300-400 yards, they are inconsistent. not fond of the workmanship on them either.
No doubt about that.
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I can assure you I know how to sight in a rifle lol. I'm also s decent shot.I'm using remington core lock 180 gr. Shells. There is no reason behind the patern. Its just plain all over.
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I was looking at the 770 about eleven years ago when I was looking for my first deer rifle. I was in good with the Owner of the Gun Shop I bought it from. He talked me into the Sigarms SHR-970 in 30-06. Consistent groups and a smooth action comparable to a Weatherby stood out as bonuses.
Edit: I hunt with the exact ammo. It makes me wonder if they skipped over bore-sighting it for you.
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I switched mid day to rem cor loc after running outta my hand loads. they were shooting high and left...about a foot from my hand loads. three shots of hand loads all touching in center.....three remi's touching high left. The only difference was my loads were 168 grain and the remi's were 165 grain. I can understand high from the factory ammo but to the left about eight inches? Made me scratch my head.
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Just bought a brand new 30-06 remington model 770. was out shooting and couldnt get a group. Put it in a vice and still couldnt get a group. Im thinking it has to be the scope, im still using the one that came with it and it was only $300. I was wondering if anyone else has been having an issue with this particular gun? We were drawn for bear permits for this fall and i certainly want to know that i can rely on the gun when Yogi decides i look tastier than a picnic basket lol
Trade it in and get a Browning . It wil run you a few more hundred but You will never go back . It sound's to me to be scope . If you have to shot iron sights untill you an buy a good scope .
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i have a 300 win mag shooting 180 gr sierra spt boattails loaded with 70 gr IMR 4831, I get like 4 inch groups at 100 yards but out at 600 I can get the same groups. I dont shoot from a bench I lay down and use the sling to steady, that way I see what "I" am shooting and not the gun. I dont worry too much what my groups are like at 100 because at 600 they are way tight. :D I never could figure out why this is though.
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i have a 300 win mag shooting 180 gr sierra spt boattails loaded with 70 gr IMR 4831, I get like 4 inch groups at 100 yards but out at 600 I can get the same groups. I dont shoot from a bench I lay down and use the sling to steady, that way I see what "I" am shooting and not the gun. I dont worry too much what my groups are like at 100 because at 600 they are way tight. :D I never could figure out why this is though.
I ues to have a 300 winchester but got tired of my arm being back and blue so I traded it for the Browning 270 I have now . I shot the rem 742 for years in a 30-06 and the only thing I did not like about it was if you did not clean it after ever hunt it will jam and all Rem are the same know to jam . I have 4 of them now and there all alike . JAM
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Flench, believe it or not, but quite a few folks clean their gun more often than every third hunting season. Don't blame the equipment if the problem is really operator negligence.
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I can assure you I know how to sight in a rifle lol. I'm also s decent shot.I'm using remington core lock 180 gr. Shells. There is no reason behind the patern. Its just plain all over.
Try different ammo. Try different weights and loads. Some guns just randomly throw one type of ammo but are solid with a different bullet, load, weight, or manufacturer. At what, $20 per box, it's an expensive way to figure out if you need to take the gun back to whoever sold it to you, but it may be the only real solution.
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Flench, believe it or not, but quite a few folks clean their gun more often than every third hunting season. Don't blame the equipment if the problem is really operator negligence.
REALLY ? I just dip mine in a mud hole and it's good to go .
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Like others have mentioned, the 770 is not generally regarded as a very accurate rifle, but hey, for the price you can't complain. If you want better accuracy in a Remington you'll have to shell out twice the $$$ for a 700.
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I second the idea about getting a Browning. I like my stainless A-bolt in 7mm rem mag. It has the BOSS dingus on the barrel which reduces the recoil (a welcome feature with 7mm ammo) and lets me tune the barrel to each individual type of ammo, but it also adds about half a pound and 3 inches of barrel length. If I was to do it again, I would probably skip the BOSS even though the anti-recoil function is greatly appreciated.
Still, the gun shoots great, no question about it. I used the factory recommended BOSS setting for another similar type of ammo (same bullet weight) and right out of the box it was shooting 1 inch 5-shot groups at 200 yards, hand-held braced on a sandbag benchrest. I have had some good shooting instructors which helped a lot, but it is nice to have a gun that is at least as accurate as I am.
One thing I did learn - you never use the first shot or two after cleaning to sight in the weapon, and when hunting the gun should be "dirty", with a couple of shots fired through it before going to the field. That way every shot you take on any given day of hunting will go to the same spot, the "dirty" gun aimpoint. This is especially important if hunting game that is usually shot at great distances. The difference between the first clean bore shot and the next 5 or so shots can be several inches at even 200 or 300 yards, depending on the gun and type of ammo.
Regarding guns that throw rounds... My .223 mini-14 shoots a randomly dispersed 5 inch group at 100 yards unless I shoot heavy grain bullets generally intended for SWAT teams. The gun hates lightweight bullets, and group size drops to a more reasonable 3 inches at 100 yards if I use the heaviest bullets I can find. So trying different ammo can be important if you really want to make a quirky gun perform better.
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I'll third the Browning A-bolt as well, shot one in .300 RUM quite a bit and love it. But just like a Remington 700 it's going to cost about twice what the 770 cost.
It's true you get what you pay for, especially in firearms.
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I have always shot a auto but my hunting Buddy shoots the A-bolt and has for year's fine gun .
The BOSS system is very nice . I have one on mine . You can Dial your lead right in . The only thing I do not like about the BOSS is the blow back . make sure you got ear plug's in when you shoot it . I hunt allot and don't where them and after the 3rd shot you don't want to shoot again ear's be ringing so bad . I have had it to break a mirror on my truck and peal the paint off it from shooting off and in it .
EDIT: I'm going to add to this . What is bad is when the scope cost more than the gun but let me tell you after hunting with a army of men I have seen it all and road tryed so to speak and a good scope make a big differnce .
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I switched mid day to rem cor loc after running outta my hand loads. they were shooting high and left...about a foot from my hand loads. three shots of hand loads all touching in center.....three remi's touching high left. The only difference was my loads were 168 grain and the remi's were 165 grain. I can understand high from the factory ammo but to the left about eight inches? Made me scratch my head.
If you are putting pressure or tension on the rifle while holding it, you are probably getting a harmonic vibration as the bullet travels down the barrel and (for example) if you use a sling looped around your left forearm which snugs the forestock down and left into your hand, then there will be both vertical and horizontal vibration. If you hold the gun exactly the same but the bullet weight, powder load or burn rate, or any number of other factors change even a bit, then the gun's natural harmonic vibrations will place the end of the barrel at a different spot for the different types of rounds.
In other words, the barrel could still be vibrating left when one type of bullet leaves the barrel, while the barrel is vibrating right when the other type of round leaves the barrel. That is the big deal with the browning BOSS tuning system, that you can not only tune the barrel harmonics to your round, but the muzzle is consistently at the peak or trough of the vibration wave where for an instant, the barrel tip is motionless before it cycles the other way in the vibration cycle. That can dramatically improve accuracy and it's why careful hand-loading matched with a floated or perfectly bedded barrel and consistent grip pattern can make all the difference in competition shooting. You want the bullet to leave the muzzle in the instant when the barrel is paused between cyclical vibration movements. The BOSS makes it easy, because it is really just a weighted tip that you adjust to make the barrel a tiny bit longer or shorter to adjust the vibration period to match the instant when the bullet leaves the muzzle. Each type of round has a setting (or more than one setting) that is perfect for just that round, but which may cause other rounds to throw quite far in any direction.
Back to your situation, if you are holding the gun in such a way as to have ANY lateral pressure or tension on the gun or the barrel is improperly mounted so the stock touches only one side of it at any point along the length of the stock, it could easily cause a horizontal vibration component that will throw shots left or right when changing rounds. Gunsmiths who tune guns for competition shooters spend hours or even days glassing and bedding each barrel to its own stock, to either leave a consistent gap (fully floating barrel) or bed it down so the stock exerts an even pressure on the barrel along the entire length of the stock. That symmetry is important in managing vibration harmonics not just of the barrel but of the whole gun.
Most shooters won't notice or care, but if you're one of those people who hate shooting guns that are less accurate than you are personally, then those little details can really make a huge difference. After a year on the USAFA pistol team and 22 years shooting USAF weapons, I have a pretty good idea how accurate I "should" be in any particular situation and it bugs me when the gun doesn't throw the bullets where I am pointing them. I expect the vast majority of dispersion to be from my technique, so when it's the gun that is tossing the shots then I get irritated pretty quickly.
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I have no experience with the 770 (I have Rem 700's, and Winchester 70's), but what eagl wrote about matters a WHOLE LOT. If you don't/can't use and experiment with reloads, it could easily pay big dividends to go out and buy several different loads/brands to test. I've seen that take a horrendously ugly group and fix it immediately.
Another point worth mentioning (because I see it almost every year with people sighting rifles before deer season) is your rest set-up. You can take a perfect rifle, perfect scope, and perfectly matched rounds and make them shoot bad by having an ineffective rest, or in particular a poor rest material. In my case, I took a beautifully-grouping rifle and caused myself all sorts of headaches by padding the front and rear rests with a bit of 1" foam (it seemed like a good idea at the time). My groups went bad immediately, but i didn't realize the rest was the cause until around 50 rounds later (and a lot of time spent investigating my scope mounts, scope, cleaning (I thought maybe I had fouling of some sort causing problems). I even made up several new reload combinations... No luck... Then I took the foam off, and bingo, good groups again.
I've seen the same effect when people yank the foam out of a case to use as a rest at the range, or rolled up towels, or a soft case folded in half, etc...
I brace both the fore stock and toe of my rifles when sighting them in, because I don't want any movement at all.
You may have a good rest already (I find good ol' sand bags to be best/easiest), but if not, I'd look into that first, since it's such an easy and overlooked component. It may not be a problem for you though, because you mention using a vice to hold the rifle. Depending on the vise, using it may have already eliminated the scope and mounts from the equation. If' that's so, I'd go back to what eagl mentions.
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Here is some work with the Browning X-Bolt in 7mm-08 at 100 yds. :D
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/TurkeyHunter65/Hunting/DSC_5341.jpg)
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The man already said he's an experienced rifle shooter. First thing I'd do is get some dent glass and good mounts. If the rifle still shoots bad I'd return it. Without being able to see your groups I couldnt tell you whats wrong but even if it is the rifle you can then buy a better one and already have the decent glass to put on it.
I may go thru life wearing old jeans and khaki but my rifle glass is always first rate, as are my rifles, "just like a redneck". And like a redneck I'll skimp on eating before I'll skimp on my rifle/glass.
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I went through 6 different scope's before I found one that would hold up to way I hunt .
I was having trouble with the scope's getting off throeing the rifle around on the fore wheeler in and out of the truck and so on . I went with the Leupold Red Dot Scope and have had it on there for the last 6 year's and have not had to mess with it at all just change the battery and your good to go .
Here is a good site for Leupold scopes you can check out and give you an idea of price then you mite find one at a pawn shop cheeper .
http://www.opticsplanet.com/leupold-rifle-scopes.html
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If you are putting pressure or tension on the rifle while holding it, you are probably getting a harmonic vibration as the bullet travels down the barrel and (for example) if you use a sling looped around your left forearm which snugs the forestock down and left into your hand, then there will be both vertical and horizontal vibration. If you hold the gun exactly the same but the bullet weight, powder load or burn rate, or any number of other factors change even a bit, then the gun's natural harmonic vibrations will place the end of the barrel at a different spot for the different types of rounds.
In other words, the barrel could still be vibrating left when one type of bullet leaves the barrel, while the barrel is vibrating right when the other type of round leaves the barrel. That is the big deal with the browning BOSS tuning system, that you can not only tune the barrel harmonics to your round, but the muzzle is consistently at the peak or trough of the vibration wave where for an instant, the barrel tip is motionless before it cycles the other way in the vibration cycle. That can dramatically improve accuracy and it's why careful hand-loading matched with a floated or perfectly bedded barrel and consistent grip pattern can make all the difference in competition shooting. You want the bullet to leave the muzzle in the instant when the barrel is paused between cyclical vibration movements. The BOSS makes it easy, because it is really just a weighted tip that you adjust to make the barrel a tiny bit longer or shorter to adjust the vibration period to match the instant when the bullet leaves the muzzle. Each type of round has a setting (or more than one setting) that is perfect for just that round, but which may cause other rounds to throw quite far in any direction.
Back to your situation, if you are holding the gun in such a way as to have ANY lateral pressure or tension on the gun or the barrel is improperly mounted so the stock touches only one side of it at any point along the length of the stock, it could easily cause a horizontal vibration component that will throw shots left or right when changing rounds. Gunsmiths who tune guns for competition shooters spend hours or even days glassing and bedding each barrel to its own stock, to either leave a consistent gap (fully floating barrel) or bed it down so the stock exerts an even pressure on the barrel along the entire length of the stock. That symmetry is important in managing vibration harmonics not just of the barrel but of the whole gun.
Most shooters won't notice or care, but if you're one of those people who hate shooting guns that are less accurate than you are personally, then those little details can really make a huge difference. After a year on the USAFA pistol team and 22 years shooting USAF weapons, I have a pretty good idea how accurate I "should" be in any particular situation and it bugs me when the gun doesn't throw the bullets where I am pointing them. I expect the vast majority of dispersion to be from my technique, so when it's the gun that is tossing the shots then I get irritated pretty quickly.
You're just a wussy. Real men handle recoil - just like this guy here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkgfrS9FanU
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I was just wondering, if it's not a derailing of the topic, what is the history of the term 30-06 or 30-aught six as I sometimes hear. I don't see the significance of the additional zero and I understood the bullet diameter was 0.308 of an inch :headscratch:
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I was just wondering, if it's not a derailing of the topic, what is the history of the term 30-06 or 30-aught six as I sometimes hear. I don't see the significance of the additional zero and I understood the bullet diameter was 0.308 of an inch :headscratch:
Here ya go!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield
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:headscratch: but the bullet diameter is 0.308 of an inch, why do they not round up to 31? And the 06 refers to what exactly?
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:headscratch: but the bullet diameter is 0.308 of an inch, why do they not round up to 31? And the 06 refers to what exactly?
think .30 caliber 1906...
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Ah the year. How strangely irrelevant. Thank you for the information. :salute
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The man already said he's an experienced rifle shooter. First thing I'd do is get some dent glass and good mounts. If the rifle still shoots bad I'd return it. Without being able to see your groups I couldnt tell you whats wrong but even if it is the rifle you can then buy a better one and already have the decent glass to put on it.
I may go thru life wearing old jeans and khaki but my rifle glass is always first rate, as are my rifles, "just like a redneck". And like a redneck I'll skimp on eating before I'll skimp on my rifle/glass.
I agree with you about the glass, and I saw that he's had some experience with shooting. He definitely doesn't come across as a beginner.
Even so, he did ask for input, and the advice given is relevant to experienced shooters. I know LOTS of very experienced shooters and hunters, and I've seen most, if not all (including myself) make very similar mistakes, so I hate to rule anything out.
If I had to spend money on one aspect of a scoped rifle set-up, at the expense of the rest, it'd be the glass for sure. In reality, there aren't many modern rifles out there that shoot worse than the VAST majority of even very experienced shooters. In my experience, unless it's bargain-basement stuff, the hardware will generally out-perform the shooter. That said, I've seen guys that could work magic with crap, and guys that shot like crap with the best stuff out there. In the end, it generally comes down to the jerk on (or behind :D)the trigger. You can't buy skill, experience, or technique, and that's almost always where the real problems lie (even though we all like to blame the equipment first).
If he's looking to just swap out his new gear for different new gear, I'd agree, the scope is the most logical choice.
Then again, that may do nothing, in which case he's back to trouble-shooting. I prefer to trouble-shoot first, and have found that to be quite successful.
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Ah the year. How strangely irrelevant. Thank you for the information. :salute
What is the common term used to describe the colt .45 acp? 1911. Why? That was when it was adopted by the military.
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could be just a shot out barrel, although it should take a LONG time to shoot out a barrel of a 30-06, but it has happened. bad batch of ammo? I have seen that before with winchester silver ballistic tips with the nickel cases, got shots all over with them and switched to winchester regular soft points and got a 2 inch group with the wifes 300 wsm.
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Ah the year. How strangely irrelevant. Thank you for the information. :salute
What's even more irrelevant today is the nomenclature for rounds like the .30-30, .30-40, and .45-70. The first number is the caliber and the second is the powder load, except that refers to way back in the day when they where black powder loads. They all use modern powders today which means the powder charge is much smaller/lighter, but for some reason we still call them the same way. :headscratch: even though 30g of most modern gunpowders in a .30-30 shell would be disastrous, we still call it .30-30 etc...
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What is the common term used to describe the colt .45 acp? 1911. Why? That was when it was adopted by the military.
I thought the pistol was assigned the U.S. military id M1911? I just assumed the numbers would say something meaningful about the bullet dimensions.
What's even more irrelevant today is the nomenclature for rounds like the .30-30, .30-40, and .45-70. The first number is the caliber and the second is the powder load, except that refers to way back in the day when they where black powder loads. They all use modern powders today which means the powder charge is much smaller/lighter, but for some reason we still call them the same way. :headscratch: even though 30g of most modern gunpowders in a .30-30 shell would be disastrous, we still call it .30-30 etc...
Interesting, thanks for all the information. Clearly an awful lot of historical background. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as you know which is which for your gun. :banana:
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I thought the pistol was assigned the U.S. military id M1911? I just assumed the numbers would say something meaningful about the bullet dimensions.
The military ID was M1911, but it was given that ID because it was designed (or maybe first produced not sure) in the year 1911 by the great John Moses Browning :salute There are other common firearms that use the year as the name as well, like every Winchester rifle from the 1800's.
1911 is the gun, .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) is the round. Not all 1911's today are .45 though. Many manufacturers have no made 1911s in .40, 10mm, 9mm or even .22lr.
When it comes to firearm cartridges (just like with almost everything else) the metric system is much clearer and easy to understand. ie 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm tells you 2 clear dimensions instead of just .223 or .308.
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Yes I know a lot about John Browning, his work, but more importantly his working method is well worth studying if you are interested in Industrial Design.
Other firearms have that nomenclature too, one of my favourites is the Steyr Mannlicher M1901, same business about the date. I've just always wondered about the apparently uniquely American 'thirty-aught eight' description. We'd only refer to that one as a 7.62-mm. :salute