Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: nate617 on June 28, 2012, 03:10:53 AM
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Just thought some of you guys would be interested. Taken a long time for this to come around mainly because of ethical issues, now the guys are getting the recognition they deserve!!
http://www.rafbf.org/1794/bomber-command-memorial.html?gclid=COWmuqu98LACFYwQfAod_GkLvA (http://www.rafbf.org/1794/bomber-command-memorial.html?gclid=COWmuqu98LACFYwQfAod_GkLvA)
US and UK/ commonwealth crews laid it down for us all so really happy to see this.
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Never understood the ethical side of bombing the Narzzie cities because they bombed your cities first :old:
Bomber command :salute
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2 wrongs don't make a right, but who dictates what is right?
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2 wrongs don't make a right, but who dictates what is right?
Geneva
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War is horrible and cant be forgotten. Even if i cant accept what the Bomber Command did, the ones who paid were only simple people like me or you. On both sides.
:salute
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2 wrongs don't make a right, but who dictates what is right?
Dont make a visit to that mermorial, Amstadam,Warsaw and say that.
You probly get a belt of a 90 year old.
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I did visit a memorial for some local 122 civilians last Sunday.
One poor sod was down the beach sunbathing when a Luft raid came in. Little did he realise that he would get more than just a tan that day.
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http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00086/F_200507_july11ed-im_86853a.jpg
Lancaster dropping poppies with a veteran on board.
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http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00086/F_200507_july11ed-im_86853a.jpg
Lancaster dropping poppies with a veteran on board.
Looks like a bleeding whale.
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2 wrongs don't make a right, but who dictates what is right?
The winner.
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The winner.
Out of curiosity, Nagasaki and Hiroshima must have been mistakes then?
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IN
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Never understood the ethical side of bombing the Narzzie cities because they bombed your cities first :old:
Bomber command :salute
+1
"war is a continuation of politics by other means"...
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Evil triumphs when good people do nothing. The Allies could have sat home defending their homes as the Axis took more and more territory. But they went into harms way for people they never met. The fight against Dictators is not over and freedom loving people must be ever vigilant.
It's doubtful another World conflict like that will happen now but you never know. The Silent Dictators are at work though trying to subdue thier citizens until all freedoms are rationed by government. The British Crown trusted it's People to defend England but won't trust them with a Gun at home now.
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Just thought some of you guys would be interested. Taken a long time for this to come around mainly because of ethical issues, now the guys are getting the recognition they deserve!!
http://www.rafbf.org/1794/bomber-command-memorial.html?gclid=COWmuqu98LACFYwQfAod_GkLvA (http://www.rafbf.org/1794/bomber-command-memorial.html?gclid=COWmuqu98LACFYwQfAod_GkLvA)
US and UK/ commonwealth crews laid it down for us all so really happy to see this.
Ethical issues? :huh The enemy was turning entire populations into soylent green.
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Never understood the ethical side of bombing the Narzzie cities because they bombed your cities first :old:
Bomber command :salute
What part of war is ever ethical?
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:salute unsung heros of a bygone era..
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Been quite a respectable build-up to this on Aussie TV over the last few weeks.
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What part of war is ever ethical?
To stop people murdering other people is ethical :old:
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To stop people murdering other people
By murdering them.
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You jack tulips can't drag the men from any side of that war through the mud.
Just stop it now.
:salute
To the men that fought and died as Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, Marines And whatever else special labels handed out.
Remember that guy that snatched The Duece from that mountainside in a Storch?
That was bad Pie right there.
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You jack tulips can't drag the men from any side of that war through the mud.
Just stop it now.
:salute
To the men that fought and died as Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, Marines And whatever else special labels handed out.
Remember that guy that snatched The Duece from that mountainside in a Storch?
That was bad Pie right there.
Saying war is not ethical is not dragging anyone through the mud.
Sometimes its necessary. I agree.
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:salute
Bomber Command
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By murdering them.
Yes they started it.
So did Japan or is that different?
The narzzies started it and they got what was coming to them.
Bomber command were brilliant at destroying the infrastructure of the Narzzie empire well done.
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Bomber command were brilliant at destroying the infrastructure of the Narzzie empire well done.
Well done indeed.
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Bomber command was indeed Heros. The woman and children who dies from their bombs were victims of the Nazis tyrrany. Not the British, or the Yanks. We didnt have "smart weapons" back then. Only racist, genocidal enemies who had to be stopped at any cost.
Ive always thought Bomber Command never got the credit they deserved for both their contributions and their losses during that terrible war. Maybe this memorial is a beginning step to give the honor RAFs Bomber Command deserves in History. I myself blame higher education for this situation. To many ex-flag burning Professors take perfectly normal kids and mindscrew them into hating the generation that saved all their Lives.
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The only really questionable raids were Dresden and Hamburg I think, and that was decided at a higher level than the men who had to fly the operations. I recall seeing an interview with a German civilian who described being at a Joseph Goebbels rally in which Goebbels was extorting the crowd that they needed total war to win and getting the crowd to shout back that yes, they wanted total war. The German gentleman finished his comment by saying that Goebbels got his total war, just not like he expected it.
As to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, well, I think those saved Japanese culture and perhaps even prevented the Cuban Missile Crisis from going hot. We were expecting 1,000,000 American casualties and 10,000,000 Japanese casualties during the first part of the invasion of Japan. The Japanese knew exactly where we were going to land and had hoarded huge amounts of fuel, aircraft and other weapons for the final stand. They had tried to turn Japanese civilians into untrained, unequipped soldiers telling them to attack our men with anything they could. The Soviets would have invaded from the north as well, leaving Japan split into North Japan and South Japan as Germany was split into East Germany and West Germany. It would have been horrific.
Additionally, the full horror that nuclear weapons cause when used on people and cities instead of just unoccupied desert was made glaringly apparent to the world and, perhaps, that helped the Soviets and Americans in 1962 to find other means of resolving the crisis.
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Personally I don't question the ethical arguments of the raids made by Bomber Command.
Thousands of incendiaries were dropped on London.
Civilians were burnt alive and trapped in firestorms created by the German raids on us.
The young brave people who served with Bomber Command were told where to be and when.
It's long overdue that full recognition is given.
It should also be remembered that the German pilots and crews were equally as brave
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Personally I don't question the ethical arguments of the raids made by Bomber Command.
Thousands of incendiaries were dropped on London.
Civilians were burnt alive and trapped in firestorms created by the German raids on us.
The young brave people who served with Bomber Command were told where to be and when.
It's long overdue that full recognition is given.
It should also be remembered that the German pilots and crews were equally as brave
:salute
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:salute Bomber Command - including my late uncle.....
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,327325
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You know you have joined the right community when a topic like this is discussed from alternate view points without becoming a slagging match.
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I breifly read somewhere that the first air raid on civilians was in WW1 by the Germans, and that the effects of this raid on the local populace were taken into account for the later divising of the strategy in the Spinish civil war (Gurnica) and WW2 (Drensden, London Blitz etc.). But I think everyone can agree that the bombing of civilians is wrong and never broke a country's morale as the strategy intended.
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If one side is evil (you know which one im talking about), if the other one is doing the same in a bigger scale, that justifyes it all?
Nope. There were horrible deeds on both sides. That German mother in Dresden was just as innocent as the one in London or Coventry. The sin just remains a sin. This should never happen again.
The soldiers were heroes on both sides: they got orders, they did it, sometimes they paid with their lives. Respect and salute to them. But not to those who ordered them to do those deeds. On both sides!
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I'm afraid this does not address the issue that the Nazis had to go. This was not a war about slightly differing ideologies or squabbling over resources. The Nazis endeavoured to exterminate and subjugate according to their own criteria with no foundation or balance and what Jonathan Meades has described as the 'tragically obedient' Germans of that time had to suffer the consequences for facilitating that endeavour.
In the R.A.F. Museum of Duxford is a vert stab off a Halifax I think, painted on it by the crew are the words 'You reap what you sow'. In the inter-war years the spirit was anti-war and progressive. Hitler and his bullyboys saw this as a job opportunity to further their sick ideals. With this as a backdrop there is no moral recourse to criticise the allied bombing campaign.
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But I think everyone can agree that the bombing of civilians is wrong and never broke a country's morale as the strategy intended.
That's not quite true. After the Germans blitzed Rotterdam (which caused 30,000+ civilian casualties), the threatened to do the same to Utrecht and other cities like The Hague and Amsterdam convinced the Dutch government to surrender.
ack-ack
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If the war in Europe had not ended when it did Berlin would have been nuked first instead of Hiroshima :old:
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If one side is evil (you know which one im talking about), if the other one is doing the same in a bigger scale, that justifyes it all?
Nope. There were horrible deeds on both sides. That German mother in Dresden was just as innocent as the one in London or Coventry. The sin just remains a sin. This should never happen again.
The soldiers were heroes on both sides: they got orders, they did it, sometimes they paid with their lives. Respect and salute to them. But not to those who ordered them to do those deeds. On both sides!
Im not going to argue this but I'll sat that in no other time in history was the balance of right and wrong so clear as in WW2. The perfect storm that put the Nazis in power, and the fact that "most" Germans werent Nazis, and if asked, probably preferred peace doesnt matter. This isnt from a moral perspective but from a practical one. The simple fact is the German Govt. started a war of aggression and then followed an official policy of enslavement and genocide on a scale never before seen in history. Theres nothing to "moralize" here cause the facts are clear and does anybody truly have any illusions about what kind of world we'd be living in had the Axis won?
Most of all Germany. A modern Industrialized state made even more powerful by its slave labor force and resources stolen from occupied countries. There was no recourse but to use the same tactics Germany herself first used, and then pursued, and that was the bombing of cities. Kill the worker and burn the factory and you have less output. Whether it worked or not you cant say it didnt force Germany to pour huge resources to stop the bombers. Resources they'd have preferred to use elsewhere.
Ive never been to Japan but if you go to Germany today its almost impossable to believe this country started such a destructive war. And that "most" of its citizens backed Hitler as long as they were winning. But they did and none of this is an Intellectual exercise ; It really did happen. The Brits and Bomber Command did what they had to do to stop them, its as simple as that.
Theres never been even close to such a destructive war since. Even with nukes all over the world. Maybe humanity finally learned its lesson. Or maybe saving the dream of Democracy and freedom prevented it. :salute To the crews of Bomber Command.
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I love discussions like this but they get heated way too quick. :bolt:
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To stop people murdering other people is ethical :old:
I thought we had laws to protect people who murder others? Well, maybe not protect, but deal with them when they do.
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We must be careful, as a community, because our hobby skirts around a period which brought out the very best and the very worst of the human race. No civilised thoughtful person wants a war. These quotes from an elderly Gentleman who recently passed away are quite thought provoking and sobering, especially since he is speaking of the First World War:-
'War is the calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings'.
'Two civilised nations, English & German, fighting one another. Why? Why did we do it?'.
'How was it settled? Over an office table. Well why the devil can't they do that, before they involve half a million lives'.
- Harry Patch. WWI veteran, the last Tommy, speaking at the age of 109 years old.
You can watch a documentary about this here if you like:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXoj_9gnMpA
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I love discussions like this but they get heated way too quick. :bolt:
I haven't seen any heated posts. I think this thread and the people who have posted have been very sincere and well behaved.
:salute
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Its only post 40 give it some time.
200 Got heated pretty quick last night.
I personally love conversations of this sort because it gives one a wide open view of all opinions.
Something that most in this game cant be bothered with having. :salute
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200 Got heated pretty quick last night.
About this topic Doctor B?
I personally love conversations of this sort because it gives one a wide open view of all opinions.
Something that most in this game cant be bothered with having. :salute
:salute
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Finally a memorial.
Its a pity that the guys who survived didn't get to see as they should off.To think what they went through night after night at there young age makes me proud but makes me ashamed of the youth of today.
Most have no pride in there country or them selves or any respect I don't see them being able to do what these young airman did.
The past must not be forgotten and the lessons are still to be learned
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About this topic Doctor B?
:salute
It was first brought up about this topic and then lead on to what you would figure immature adults to take it too.
:salute DrShida
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Its only post 40 give it some time.
200 Got heated pretty quick last night.
I personally love conversations of this sort because it gives one a wide open view of all opinions.
Something that most in this game cant be bothered with having. :salute
There are people who play games to relax and get a break from reality and seriousness. It's alot tougher now than it was before but 'Dave' never flew AirWarrior or Aces High, fuze and fuzeman did, respectively.