Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on July 06, 2012, 02:13:24 PM
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Hello,
At least weekly I run into a pilot so good in an A20 that my jaw is dropped. E retention as good as any late war fighter. Can turn inside a Spit. Dive with me. Climb with me. I mean wow!!!!!!!!! :eek:
When I encounter such a pilot in this plane it is night and day.
1. Has anyone else encountered this?
2. Were there really any A20's in WWII that could compete so completely with a late war fighter?
3. If not, is this bird really that exploitable?
Thanks for educating me,
Slade :salute
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Western allies did not use this aircraft in this manner they would run as they had been trained to do if threatened.
The Russians how ever did use it as fighter/night fighter & sketchy reports of it being used in dog fights with kills to it's credit.
I think it depended on who flew it & how they were trained to do so?
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for one...the slower plane will often out turn the faster plane.....like a pony out turning a zero when the zero is to fast....
for two....the driver of the A20 is very used to that plane...and knows how to fight, a deadly combo :aok
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Some guy named "cobra" something? Don't worry, hes an aberration, with a few knock-offs. The rest are just targets.
Boo
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2. Were there really any A20's in WWII that could compete so completely with a late war fighter?
3. If not, is this bird really that exploitable?
Thanks for educating me,
Slade :salute
2. No
3. Yes. The reason why is that the restrictions placed on the A-20 (USAAF pilots were ordered not to do aerobatics or fly inverted) aren't in place in game. In reality, under USAAF service the A-20 never had any A2A kills from dogfighting, the only A2A kills were scored by the P-70 (night fighter variant of the Havoc) and those numbered less than half a dozen and was pretty much considered ineffective as a night fighter.
ack-ack
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Cobia38 is very good in the A-20 if that's who it is.
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Cobia38 is very good in the A-20 if that's who it is.
Yes Cobia38 & others who use differential throttle controls to slow the inside turn and speed up the outside turn. They do a similar trick in Lancs & other big gangley birds. :aok saw one beat several fighters in a row down deep in a canyon one day. :salute
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must be the best fighter in the world , first it out turned my A8 EASY (most planes can do that flying slow, including some 4 engined buffs though (!) , shooting with its rear gunners through the whole high G turn losing one aileron , after that ,on my six, i just gasped in dismay, taking some hits killing oil tank from behind at 800 yards, then dived away, seeing the bloody thing drop its 3 tons of ordnance on the town below (more than my plane total weight at 25% fuel).
Now someone tell me, is this for real ?
Im not the best pilot in the game by far, but something ainīt right.
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It can't fight uphill. Go up and it loses.
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must be the best fighter in the world , first it out turned my A8 EASY (most planes can do that flying slow, including some 4 engined buffs though (!) , shooting with its rear gunners through the whole high G turn losing one aileron , after that ,on my six, i just gasped in dismay, taking some hits killing oil tank from behind at 800 yards, then dived away, seeing the bloody thing drop its 3 tons of ordnance on the town below (more than my plane total weight at 25% fuel).
Now someone tell me, is this for real ?
Im not the best pilot in the game by far, but something ainīt right.
there is nothing wrong at all...Cobia is a master of his aircraft...that is all......
I wish I had 5 dollars for every time someone told me......I cant do what I was doing in the plane I was in. :aok
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well I would not try outdistance an a20 going uphill in an a8 with 4*20mm at 8k, A8 does much better outaccelerating fighters going downhill.
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well I would not try outdistance an a20 going uphill in an a8 with 4*20mm at 8k, A8 does much better outaccelerating fighters going downhill.
It isn't even close. Go up:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=68&p2=9&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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It isn't even close. Go up:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=68&p2=9&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
The chart reflects full internal fuel. With 25% fuel, the A-20G climbs much better. Typically, 50% fuel is the most I will load. When fighting defensively, I take 25% (that's good for about 15 minutes).
Then there's that physics thing... Inertia. We tested the A-20 along side a Yak-9U. Level at 350 mph with the A-20 just 400 yards behind, the Yak goes pure vertical, and the A-20 follows. What happens? The A-20 closes to 200 yards and the Yak stalls first (about two seconds difference). Compared to the best climbers, Spit 16 and 109K-4, the A-20 maintains pace long enough to kill the fighter (again, in the pure vertical). So, if you're flying a fighter, you had better have a significant E advantage, or be higher to begin.
The A-20 is not a fighter, but you can catch many players flat-footed and give them a beating. This results from decent performance, and the fact that most players do not expect an A-20 to be very aggressive and certainly not flown by a very dangerous and capable pilot.
So, how does one cope with an expertly flown A-20? Well, you have to exercise sound judgement.
I fly the A-20 as a fighter frequently, and when not flying from a capped field (which I do just for fun), can often maintain a 4/1 K/D with it. Here's my advice.
1) Never assume that the A-20 is not piloted by an expert stick until proven otherwise.
2) Treat the A-20 with respect. It's far more capable than any other medium bomber, and a can give some fighters a very hard time.
3) Be prepared to unload and get separation if you find yourself Co-E with an aggressive A-20.
4) Maintain your E state to begin, get above the A-20 if possible without allowing the range to close to gun range.
5) Never go pure vertical with an A-20 that has a similar E state, especially if it's already within or close to effective gun range. If you are going to go up, spiral climb. Never do a straight climb Co-E. A spiral climb causes the A-20 to turn tighter to pull lead. The associated induced drag will quickly eat into the A-20's E faster than that of the fighter (especially, a late-war, high performance fighter).
6) Watch out for the over-shoot. It's easy to scrub speed from the A-20.. A common defensive maneuver for A-20 sticks is to enter a gradual turn, slowing tightening the radius. As the faster attacking fighter pulls harder to get lead, the A-20 will roll level and pull up into a big barrel roll, ending up on your six, guns blazing.
7) A-20s are vulnerable to front quarter shots, especially from above. There's no pilot protection from the upper front (windshield is not armored) and not much from other nose-on angles.
8) A-20s have external views, which means that sometimes, they can see you when you can't see them. They are very hard to sneak up on, with no blind spots.
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Those charts must assume 100% fuel then?
I'm in an A20 now at about 12k and I'm got a ROC over 2 until 10k or so. with about 35% fuel no bombs
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Roll with them? :noid
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I agree it is not a perfect representation of what would happen, and I am assuming per the OP that the Fw190A-8 starts with the initiative. In any sort of sustained uphill maneuvering the Fw190A-8 will have a major advantage, regardless of their respective fuel loadings.
And yes, when I say go up I definitely mean in a spiral. Don't hand your tush to the A-20G.
I always approach them with respect as I know that some very good sticks like to use them as fighters.
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Roll with them? :noid
They don't roll well, but using rudder speeds up roll rate considerably, at the cost of E (adverse yaw).
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They don't roll well, but using rudder speeds up roll rate considerably, at the cost of E (adverse yaw).
Never had a problem with an A20. Like I said roll with them, and they're not the only one with rudders. :aok
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I agree it is not a perfect representation of what would happen, and I am assuming per the OP that the Fw190A-8 starts with the initiative. In any sort of sustained uphill maneuvering the Fw190A-8 will have a major advantage, regardless of their respective fuel loadings.
And yes, when I say go up I definitely mean in a spiral. Don't hand your tush to the A-20G.
I always approach them with respect as I know that some very good sticks like to use them as fighters.
At 4k, an A-20G with 25% fuel is climbing at 2,600 fpm. Not too bad... If the 190A-8 doesn't have adequate separation, it could get ugly. More so if the A-20 has an E advantage.
Every engagement is unique, we can generalize to some degree, but I have never been much worried about a Co-E 190 when in an A-20. Compound that with the skill level of the average pilot....
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Widewing,
On the performance spreadsheet I've been doing I have been setting fuel to as close to 30 minutes as I could get it as that is the level I generally target for short offensive hops.
Do you think that is a good level to be testing at?
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Never had a problem with an A20. Like I said roll with them, and they're not the only one with rudders. :aok
Don't worry, sooner or later, you will have trouble with an A-20. Eventually, you'll be low and slow and run into someone like Cobia and things will get tense. Many really good sticks have not shown the A-20 due deference, and have been caught flat-footed. Remember that the good A-20 stick will exploit any lackadaisical flying or lack of urgency. These guys do what they do because what they do is usually unexpected.
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Widewing,
On the performance spreadsheet I've been doing I have been setting fuel to as close to 30 minutes as I could get it as that is the level I generally target for short offensive hops.
Do you think that is a good level to be testing at?
Yes, if you plan on being airborne for more than 15 minutes, you'll need 50% fuel. Add bombs and performance is reduced accordingly. Defensively, 25% is preferred. This assumes you survive the horde long enough to land kills.
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Don't worry, sooner or later, you will have trouble with an A-20. Eventually, you'll be low and slow and run into someone like Cobia and things will get tense. Many really good sticks have not shown the A-20 due deference, and have been caught flat-footed. Remember that the good A-20 stick will exploit any lackadaisical flying or lack of urgency. These guys do what they do because what they do is usually unexpected.
Exactly, good sticks don't get killed by A20s. They can certainly get picked by one though. :aok
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and for some reason the A20 also has bomber class resistance, soaking 30mm's like lancaster
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and for some reason the A20 also has bomber class resistance, soaking 30mm's like lancaster
Hmm, I've noticed that, but then most of the time, you can latch on their 6 and just use the MGs instead of wasting your cannon rounds. Nothing they can do. If they hop in the rear gun, flying straight and level, take your time and line up the shot. :)
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I don't know what you mean "bomber class resistances". This isn't an RPG where different things get different damage reduction values or some such.
Do you mean that it just has a lot of hit points? That is generally true of larger aircraft in AH.
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Hmm, I've noticed that, but then most of the time, you can latch on their 6 and just use the MGs instead of wasting your cannon rounds. Nothing they can do. If they hop in the rear gun, flying straight and level, take your time and line up the shot. :)
You're thinking about the average MA A-20 pilot... Not the experten, who will never, ever man the rear turret. However, sometimes the experts do bring a gunner, which can complicate things. Getting on the 6 of a top A-20 stick isn't easy. If you're at similar speeds and altitudes, you may find the that you are the one with someone latched on your 6. I can see you haven't dueled against a top A-20 stick yet....
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F3 view makes the A20 4 times the ride it should be :aok
Just saying :O
:bolt:
JUGgler
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F3 view makes the A20 4 times the ride it should be :aok
Just saying :O
:bolt:
JUGgler
I don't know that I agree with 4X better... However, it is a very big advantage, especially in a multi-con fight. In addition, with practice, you can shoot with good accuracy from the F3 view. I've always advocated that you should not be able to shoot the forward guns when not in the cockpit. Just gotta convince HiTech.....
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You're thinking about the average MA A-20 pilot... Not the experten, who will never, ever man the rear turret. However, sometimes the experts do bring a gunner, which can complicate things. Getting on the 6 of a top A-20 stick isn't easy. If you're at similar speeds and altitudes, you may find the that you are the one with someone latched on your 6. I can see you haven't dueled against a top A-20 stick yet....
I'm game for an A20 duel.
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It can't fight uphill. Go up and it loses.
19/20 AH pilots have no idea what fighting uphill is. I see spits and 109s split-Sing all the time ...
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You're thinking about the average MA A-20 pilot... Not the experten, who will never, ever man the rear turret. However, sometimes the experts do bring a gunner, which can complicate things. Getting on the 6 of a top A-20 stick isn't easy. If you're at similar speeds and altitudes, you may find the that you are the one with someone latched on your 6. I can see you haven't dueled against a top A-20 stick yet....
I have brought in a gunner while turn fighting before instructing them not to fire until I lock them into a turn fight, to appear as if there is no rear gunner.
You'd be surprised, I've gunned a few times in the SBD and shot down a few people that were unprepared.
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Best way to learn how to beat an aircraft is to learn to fly it, and fly it well. :aok
:salute
BigRat
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I flew the A-20 tonight, defending A63 against a large Bish air and ground attack.
Arriving in A63's tower. I counted at least 7 enemy aircraft near the base, and another 4+ off shore. Two Mustangs were vulching, so I had to do something about that first. I grabbed a field ack and killed both. I then upped an A-20 with four 500 pound bombs, 25% fuel and rolled. Unimpaired, I flew to the town where I found a gaggle of GVs. I started out alone, but help eventually arrived. Over the next 30 minutes, I killed seven M3s, a C-47, four Panzers, an M4 and an M16. Meanwhile, I had to deal with harassing fighters. In doing so, I shot down an La-7, a Spit8, Spit9 and a P-51D. I got assists by finishing off a Niki, P-47N, P-51D and a low flying Lancaster as well as knocking out a Wirble's turret.
In exchange, I lost one A-20, which was the result of snapping the wings pulling excessive g. I hadn't taken a single ping up until then. The proxy went to an M3, which I killed a few minutes later. I might want to add a little more Damping to my joystick settings when flying the Havoc. I landed three times for a fresh A-20 (rearming was too slow a process when trying to save the base) when I had expended all ammo. We saved the base, and had a lot of fun.
I doubt that there is a more effective multi-role aircraft in the game..... The score as of now is 23 kills for 1 death (unrelated to enemy fire).
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I was flying an A-20 as a fighter at the beginning of last camp. Although I'd never done that it's better than most would think.
About a week later I ran into cobia38 while in my Spit VXI. He's very very good in the A-20 and after a several minute fight friendlies interjected. I was really hoping to conclude our fight on our own because I knew who was behind the stick. :salute cobia. Hope to run into you again one day.
Glad I had a little experience dogfighting in an A-20 before we met because I never fully exploited my Spit's advantages keeping it low, slow and tight. It was much more fun that way.
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Do you mean that it just has a lot of hit points? That is generally true of larger aircraft in AH.
thats what I mean. Take a bf110, it is made of paper and will die with a well placed 30mm shell. Take an A20 and suddenly you have a plane that can take a few of them and fly away! I know the A20 is bigger than a bf110, but does it warrant the radical change of hit points?
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most a20 are easy meat with an a8 shooting from high 12,
Im talking about what its limitation should be IRL compared with AH.
I just waiting to get outturned by an b29 doing advanced aerobatics , shooting with its 20mm guns at the time
In "another sim" gunners stop shooting at G load, in here what is the limitation ?
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They don't roll well, but using rudder speeds up roll rate considerably, at the cost of E (adverse yaw).
Doesn't rudder during the roll counter adverse yaw?
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Widewing,
What, in your opinion, stops a Bf110G, P-38J or L, P-47N or Mosquito VI from being as effective as the A-20G? It seems that the performance edge goes rather drastically to the fighters, even with bomb and rocket racks cluttering up the airframes.
Noir,
Not sure. I'd have to test it, but I do recall the A-20 being much larger than the Bf110.
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F-3 mode make a world of difference just go to the DA. F-3 gives the advantage of fantastic deflection shots that could never be made other than by accident. Go look at the air kills of the IL-2 after it lost it's F-3 mode privileged.
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If you're getting outfought by an A-20, you are doing it wrong.
(Trust me, I do it wrong most of the time. :D)
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Hmm...who wants to duel, A20 vs any fighter plane? :noid
Though something tells me A20 > P40, P39, P51 (in a turn fight), maybe Emil (assuming I can hit anything with those cannons :uhoh).
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Yes Cobia38 & others who use differential throttle controls to slow the inside turn and speed up the outside turn. They do a similar trick in Lancs & other big gangley birds. :aok saw one beat several fighters in a row down deep in a canyon one day. :salute
I have a single throttle, and have never used split throttles. But that would be a good idea to test,I wonder if it would make any differance :headscratch:
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i,m game Titanic just say when and where
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Hmm...Today if you're on, 2 or 3PM EST? I'll be the MA, PM me and I'll go if I'm not in the middle of a sortie.
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Hmm...Today if you're on, 2 or 3PM EST? I'll be the MA, PM me and I'll go if I'm not in the middle of a sortie.
ok i should be free
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Hmm...who wants to duel, A20 vs any fighter plane? :noid
Though something tells me A20 > P40, P39, P51 (in a turn fight), maybe Emil (assuming I can hit anything with those cannons :uhoh).
Knowing who you are up against makes a huge diff. You have go train your mind that each ac you are up against is being flown by the best. Complacently is not your friend.
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Good thing we took the F3 view away from the IL2. It was truly a Monster of air to air combat. :huh
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/a20-IL2climb.jpg)
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/a20-IL2speed.jpg)
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Knowing who you are up against makes a huge diff. You have go train your mind that each ac you are up against is being flown by the best. Complacently is not your friend.
I've been asking people to DA me almost everyday since I've started playing. :) Trust me, I know. I've met pilots of all caliber.
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last time i was in DA A-20 wasent available, is it still this way ?
if so we have to find a secluded area in MA
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last time i was in DA A-20 wasent available, is it still this way ?
if so we have to find a secluded area in MA
Simply put up your own custom arena.
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Simply put up your own custom arena.
that would make sence,we can not have that :furious
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Widewing,
What, in your opinion, stops a Bf110G, P-38J or L, P-47N or Mosquito VI from being as effective as the A-20G? It seems that the performance edge goes rather drastically to the fighters, even with bomb and rocket racks cluttering up the airframes.
Noir,
Not sure. I'd have to test it, but I do recall the A-20 being much larger than the Bf110.
Widewing will probably have the correct answer but I'd say the differnce is "lack of F3 view"
F3 view even during ground attack is far superior to cockpit view!
JUGgler
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Good thing we took the F3 view away from the IL2. It was truly a Monster of air to air combat. :huh
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/a20-IL2climb.jpg)
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/a20-IL2speed.jpg)
The ridiculous advantages afforded by F3 view have nothing to do with "plane performances" :aok
You have been around long enough to know this reality!
JUGgler
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Widewing will probably have the correct answer but I'd say the differnce is "lack of F3 view"
F3 view even during ground attack is far superior to cockpit view!
JUGgler
If that is the case it seems that F3 view should be removed from the A-20G.
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They don't roll well, but using rudder speeds up roll rate considerably, at the cost of E (adverse yaw).
this might be a typo but to clarify some aerodynamic stuff..
adverse yaw happens any time you move the ailerons and is countered by adding in rudder. by doing this you stay coordinated and retain more energy.
by not countering the effects of adverse yaw with the rudder you are flying uncoordinated and producing more drag.
.........
oh yeah disable the friggin external view in the a20. not just for its dogfighting exploits but the fact it carries 8 bombs and its the prefered bomb every vehicle into oblivion while killing enemy fighters overpowered dweeb mobile that eclipses the il2 external view tards.
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ohhh no !!! please dont remove F3, I wont be able to turn the plane or retain E any more :cry
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Del tried dual throttles for his 38 and said that it had very little effect. He could do a better hammer head, but that was about it. The rest of the maneuvers didn't change enough with split controls to be worth it.
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If that is the case it seems that F3 view should be removed from the A-20G.
Not so sure removing it is the way to go. No use of any weapon or bomb from F3 view may be a start, I would also add a 2 second delay when switching from or to external view.
Then again, when F3 was removed from the IL2 it adversly affected "base defense" in my opinion. It was the only reasonable plane left to fight the vermin when the fighter hangars went down. Now the vermin have free reign :mad:
Anyway "F3" is a long standing debate in AH, there has been several ideas but the only one ever accepted was the one that supported the vermin! IMHO
:cheers:
:bolt:
JUGgler
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Widewing will probably have the correct answer but I'd say the differnce is "lack of F3 view"
F3 view even during ground attack is far superior to cockpit view!
JUGgler
Absolutely agree. F3 Allows you to see far better than any of the types Karnak listed. Granted, the very short vehicle icon range makes a big difference over what it used to be, but the advantage still means you don't have to bank left and right to watch for tell tale signs of enemy GVs.
A second advantage is eight 500 pound bombs... That's 8 opportunities to kill vehicles. 8 bombs on a town, etc. No fighter can kill as much armor as effectively in a single sortie, and we still have to consider the six .50 caliber MGs packed tightly into the nose. One quick pass will kill most lightly armored vehicles, largely due to the concentration of firepower.
The third advantage is the that the A-20 excels at dive bombing, due to outstanding low speed handling and virtually no nose bounce.
Let's compare the A-20 to other medium bombers...
Boston: An earlier version of Havoc (A-20C). Very similar speed and climb, actually turns better than the A-20. Carries only 4 bombs and has much lower forward firepower (four .303 MGs in nose). The Boston has fabric control surfaces, which are much less effective at speeds above 225 mph. To get a Boston turning at speeds above that, you will need to add a lot of up elevator trim. Juggler knows what I'm speaking about, he was one of those who liked to go dogfighting in the Boston.
B-25: Much heavier than the A-20. The C model is the more agile. Good bomb load and forward firepower, but the limited maneuverability, much less speed and climb make it far less survivable in a fighter-rich environment.
Ju 88: Good bomb load, decent agility. Much slower than the A-20, and pathetic climb in comparison. Nearly worthless firepower forward. An A-20 will literally fly circles around the Ju 88.
All of the above have the F3 option. All have multi-man aircrews. The A-20G has a 3 man crew, pilot and two gunners (the ventral gun is missing in the AH A-20 as they had no photos on which to model it at the time). The Boston has a four man crew. Both the B-25s and Ju-88 have four or more crew members. The A-20 is not afforded anything other bombers don't have. All bombers, single engine, twin engine and four engine have the F3 option, essential for any chance at survival in the MA. A lone pilot cannot effectively man a bomber without F3.
The IL-2 lost that option because was not being used nearly as much for ground attack as for field defense as a fighter against fighters. The 23mm cannons are extremely effective against aircraft, relying on the F3 view to pray and spray. You can still use it as a fighter, but now you are limited to using the gunner's position to see behind, which you can key-map or map to a joystick switch. The problem is that as soon as you switch to the gunner position, you lose the ability to maneuver. I disagree with this last change, feeling that limiting forward gun use to the cockpit view only would have been enough to limit the Stormovik scourge. I believe that the best solution is this: No forward shooting or bomb release if in F3 view. That will eliminate much of the gaminess associated with F3 use.
Castrating bombers by eliminating F3 would have a major adverse impact on game play. Isolating the A-20G for this treatment is solely based upon the fact that it is the best performing air to air bomber, and hence gets score of complaints from average (or lesser) players whose level of suckage is such that they can't cope with it in a fighter when the A-20 is flown my an expert. My advice is to improve your skills. Almost any fighter can beat the A-20 if the fighter's pilot has some basic ACM skills and adequate situational awareness.
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If that is the case it seems that F3 view should be removed from the A-20G.
Short sighted... What about the B-25s, Boston, B-26, TBM, BN5 and Ju 88? All can be and are used the same way.
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Simply put up your own custom arena.
It's much easier to go to the TA... You don't get shot down, but you will certainly recognize when you're getting hammered....
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this might be a typo but to clarify some aerodynamic stuff..
adverse yaw happens any time you move the ailerons and is countered by adding in rudder. by doing this you stay coordinated and retain more energy.
by not countering the effects of adverse yaw with the rudder you are flying uncoordinated and producing more drag.
True. A little rudder in the direction of the bank counters adverse yaw associated with the bank. However, when using the rudder to induce a roll you get adverse yaw into the roll. This is because you use full rudder displacement, which leads to adverse yaw in the direction of the bank. Big twins often suffer from worse adverse yaw than a single-engine aircraft due to the thrust lines being off center to the axis of flight.
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Widewing,
Do you use the F3 view for dogfighting in the A-20G?
I am not really concerned with air-to-ground.
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Well, the results are in:
A20 vs P51D - cobia
A20 vs P40N - cobia
A20 vs 109G6 - titan
A20 vs A6M3 - titan
A20 vs A6M5 - titan
A20 vs P38J - titan
Then we did A20 vs A20 twice, it was a tie (would've done more, but I had to log).
With the exception of the P40s and Zekes, I basically won by going vertical. The Zekes outclasses the A20 completely (as it should), though I was talking to cobia, and like I said before, he killed Zekes/Hurris by BnZing them but with an altitude advantage, in an equal E fight, Zeke wins hands down. The 51D fight was interesting. At first I was going vertical with him and although he couldn't get a shot on me, neither could I due to the crappy low speed handling. Once I started TnBing with cobia, the A20 won eventually after I used up all my E. 51D just kept snap stalling everytime I made a move under 100mph.
:salute Cobia, fun fights all around.
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Widewing,
Do you use the F3 view for dogfighting in the A-20G?
I am not really concerned with air-to-ground.
I use F3 to check my six... You can't see directly behind you at all in the A-20.
In a dogfight, I stay in the cockpit view. Switching to F3 doesn't get you anything unless the enemy is directly on your six.
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True. A little rudder in the direction of the bank counters adverse yaw associated with the bank. However, when using the rudder to induce a roll you get adverse yaw into the roll. This is because you use full rudder displacement, which leads to adverse yaw in the direction of the bank. Big twins often suffer from worse adverse yaw than a single-engine aircraft due to the thrust lines being off center to the axis of flight.
Wouldn't that be better described as excess yaw since adverse yaw has a specific meaning unrelated to rudder use?
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I use F3 to check my six... You can't see directly behind you at all in the A-20.
In a dogfight, I stay in the cockpit view. Switching to F3 doesn't get you anything unless the enemy is directly on your six.
I disagree Wide, the use of F3 during dogfights is far superior and we haven't even talked about the "below the nose" shots afforded by F3
JUGgler
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Well, the results are in:
A20 vs P51D - cobia
A20 vs P40N - cobia
A20 vs 109G6 - titan
A20 vs A6M3 - titan
A20 vs A6M5 - titan
A20 vs P38J - titan
Then we did A20 vs A20 twice, it was a tie (would've done more, but I had to log).
With the exception of the P40s and Zekes, I basically won by going vertical. The Zekes outclasses the A20 completely (as it should), though I was talking to cobia, and like I said before, he killed Zekes/Hurris by BnZing them but with an altitude advantage, in an equal E fight, Zeke wins hands down. The 51D fight was interesting. At first I was going vertical with him and although he couldn't get a shot on me, neither could I due to the crappy low speed handling. Once I started TnBing with cobia, the A20 won eventually after I used up all my E. 51D just kept snap stalling everytime I made a move under 100mph.
:salute Cobia, fun fights all around.
As I said before, "almost any fighter can beat the A-20 if the fighter's pilot has some basic ACM skills and adequate situational awareness".
Of course, the Zero can out-fly the A-20. In a duel, that is readily apparent. In the MA, it's different as the A-20 can disengage and run from any Zero quite easily below 5k.
The way to beat the A-20 is to get the pilot to dump his flaps to maneuver. That's when you push the fight up hill. I'm sure you discovered that today. :salute
P-40s, F4F-4, P-39D and the like can have a tough time because the A-20 is as fast or faster, climbs better and holds E better (again, inertia at work). Once the P-40 bleeds off his E, the A-20 then takes the fight up hill. The P-39Q is another beast altogether. It's as fast as the P-38J/L at 10k, and climbs very well in WEP.
Once more, the A-20 succeeds in the MA because, "a good A-20 stick will exploit any lackadaisical flying or lack of urgency. These guys do what they do because what they do is usually unexpected."
The A-20 relies on the other guy helping it to win... Poor flying, low skill level, lack of SA, etc... Yet, even in a 1v1 duel, the A-20 can be very surprising.
Since you've now dueled against and in the A-20, I imagine you now know how good A-20 sticks do so well. It's a pretty capable ride for a bomber and can take advantage of any lapse to kill opposing fighters.
Now, when I can get some time, perhaps you can meet me in the TA and we'll explore the A-20 further and the ridiculous low-speed maneuverability of the Boston. :O
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I disagree Wide, the use of F3 during dogfights is far superior and we haven't even talked about the "below the nose" shots afforded by F3
JUGgler
I should have been more specific.. I was referring to a 1v1 fight. In a furball, F3 is a huge advantage. Then again, in a furball, the A-20 is a huge target... Also, I don't shoot from F3. I try to practice what I preach. :D
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Wouldn't that be better described as excess yaw since adverse yaw has a specific meaning unrelated to rudder use?
Yes, excess yaw is the correct term. The result is still the scrubbing off of speed.
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An a20 is roughly 2meters longer and larger and weights 2 tons more than a bf110, nothing that can justify it to be MUCH tougher.
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As I said before, "almost any fighter can beat the A-20 if the fighter's pilot has some basic ACM skills and adequate situational awareness".
Of course, the Zero can out-fly the A-20. In a duel, that is readily apparent. In the MA, it's different as the A-20 can disengage and run from any Zero quite easily below 5k.
The way to beat the A-20 is to get the pilot to dump his flaps to maneuver. That's when you push the fight up hill. I'm sure you discovered that today. :salute
P-40s, F4F-4, P-39D and the like can have a tough time because the A-20 is as fast or faster, climbs better and holds E better (again, inertia at work). Once the P-40 bleeds off his E, the A-20 then takes the fight up hill. The P-39Q is another beast altogether. It's as fast as the P-38J/L at 10k, and climbs very well in WEP.
Once more, the A-20 succeeds in the MA because, "a good A-20 stick will exploit any lackadaisical flying or lack of urgency. These guys do what they do because what they do is usually unexpected."
The A-20 relies on the other guy helping it to win... Poor flying, low skill level, lack of SA, etc... Yet, even in a 1v1 duel, the A-20 can be very surprising.
Since you've now dueled against and in the A-20, I imagine you now know how good A-20 sticks do so well. It's a pretty capable ride for a bomber and can take advantage of any lapse to kill opposing fighters.
Now, when I can get some time, perhaps you can meet me in the TA and we'll explore the A-20 further and the ridiculous low-speed maneuverability of the Boston. :O
Sure, DA, TA, MA, whatever works for you. :aok Although I don't think I know your IGN.
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If that is the case it seems that F3 view should be removed from the A-20G.
Not enough GV'ers whining about getting kilt by them, and then turning into MR. Hyde and saying the real reason is cause F3 gives to much advantage in ATA combat. Its a simple matter to take out Ords and 8 0.50s aint gonna kill a Tiger.
If they could you can bet the hordes of the righteous would indignantly demand F3 be taken away from the A20 and it be sent to the FH cause, "Its to deadly an ATA fighter". :x
I used to show restraint against GVs in IL2s. No messing with GV bases and most of the time no bombing them. Now I say blast them, and their cunning denizens, into smithereeens. OOPs! Kinda raged off topic didnt I? Apologies. :D
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Sure, DA, TA, MA, whatever works for you. :aok Although I don't think I know your IGN.
It's TredLite...
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The ridiculous advantages afforded by F3 view have nothing to do with "plane performances" :aok
You have been around long enough to know this reality!
JUGgler
\
He may have been around long enough but Richie Boy isn't smart enough to know the difference.
ack-ack
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\
He may have been around long enough but Richie Boy isn't smart enough to know the difference.
ack-ack
:rolleyes:
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Widewing will probably have the correct answer but I'd say the differnce is "lack of F3 view"
F3 view even during ground attack is far superior to cockpit view!
JUGgler
The ridiculous advantages afforded by F3 view have nothing to do with "plane performances"
You have been around long enough to know this reality!
JUGgler
Weve both been around long enough to see a contradiction when we see it. In every concievable way F3 assists in your SA. Which affetcs your plane performance, at least in every statistical measurement. Even Ack boy can figure that one out. Maybe.
Fibe an airframe with far better plane performance, like the A20, F3 view and you get.....even farther better plane performance. Tho frankly, to this day, I cant fathom how anyone can actually shoot while in F3. That is if AH hasnt fixed that yet, which is what they should have done before gelding the flying bathtub.
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Never had a problem with an A20. Like I said roll with them, and they're not the only one with rudders. :aok
FYI by cranking back on the stick and applying full rudder you can snaproll an A20, and it's completely controllable. beware :t
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FYI by cranking back on the stick and applying full rudder you can snaproll an A20, and it's completely controllable. beware :t
shhhhhhhh
:noid
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An a20 is roughly 2meters longer and larger and weights 2 tons more than a bf110, nothing that can justify it to be MUCH tougher.
You can not justify an airplanes toughness by comparing it to a completely different aircraft design.
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^ this guy is getting pretty good in the P20 too :uhoh
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Widewing, please do not discuss the ridiculous low-speed maneuverability of the Boston, or your going on the list :D :D ;)
Not flying much at the moment, but taking the boston up in fighter mode is such fun, and gets people all riled up.
Wurz
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Weve both been around long enough to see a contradiction when we see it. In every concievable way F3 assists in your SA. Which affetcs your plane performance, at least in every statistical measurement. Even Ack boy can figure that one out. Maybe.
It will not change a plane's climb rate, speed, turn rate, roll rate, etc.
ack-ack
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The best thing about the A-20 is the gun package, very faw aircraft have that "lazer gun" effect the A-20 has, Save the p38. And even that trades one .20mm for x2 .50's with mixed ballistics.
I use to fly my A20 to defend air bases already* under heavy attack, after the fighter hangers were all gone. Once you get air born,even if you cannot defend yourself by menuver,you can still jump to the turret and do SOMETHING to help your cause. NEVER underestimate the power of jumping into a turret and hitting your auto climb buttons (.speed 150-200),then use rudder for a slight turn, it makes you a climbing,very hard target..with teeth. (oh how i wish we could have the .30 in the belly (crys))
Little tricks with snaprolling and auto climb with rudder can make a A20 even under distress a rough target to down. Back in the day the a20 had a MAJOR flaw with its hit box,where any hit the main body would end up in a instant fireball/kill, now that..that was corrected, it is STILL a very formitable aircraft
Sorry for the spellking arors and such, iv beeen drinking.
P.s. all hail the widewing and ack-ack, these guys know what they are doing, so pay attention. and please..always remember that the Training arena is always a great place to become a vertual god..in any air frame,so long as you have at least 1, forward firing gun.
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Not enough GV'ers whining about getting kilt by them, and then turning into MR. Hyde and saying the real reason is cause F3 gives to much advantage in ATA combat. Its a simple matter to take out Ords and 8 0.50s aint gonna kill a Tiger.
F3/F5 should be removed from EVERY plane.
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F3/F5 should be removed from EVERY plane.
Agreed! :aok
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Leave it for planes on the ground.
I like going into F3 and getting a rear view of my plane so I can see the control surfaces move when I'm setting my joystick scaling or checking my convergence visually by going to a head on view from d400 and watching the shells as they come past.
For flying, I don't think any plane needs F3 mode.
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F3/F5 should be removed from EVERY plane.
I agree for any plane not a straight bomber.
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F3/F5 should be removed from EVERY plane.
Agreed. :aok
Also, forward firing guns should be disabled on bombers when in F3/F5 mode. No more Tie Fighter bombers.
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Agreed. :aok
Also, forward firing guns should be disabled on bombers when in F3/F5 mode. No more Tie Fighter bombers.
+1, if for no other reason than to take it away as a source of complaint. :)
Wiley.
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F3/F5 should be removed from EVERY plane.
I think F3 has a legitimate use in modeling the ability of four to ten crew members all scanning the sky. Otherwise you've got a four-engine bomber with a crew of one with the pilot having to leave the controls and physically jump to a gun position to have any idea what might be in that sector of sky, which is absurd.
What should be removed is the ability to fire any guns or drop any ordnance in F3 mode - F3 is for looking only. As a compromise, F3 could be disabled if you fly an attack sortie.
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I think F3 has a legitimate use in modeling the ability of four to ten crew members all scanning the sky. Otherwise you've got a four-engine bomber with a crew of one with the pilot having to leave the controls and physically jump to a gun position to have any idea what might be in that sector of sky, which is absurd.
What should be removed is the ability to fire any guns or drop any ordnance in F3 mode - F3 is for looking only. As a compromise, F3 could be disabled if you fly an attack sortie.
that works too, still doesn't need to be in IL2, A20, 110, etc.
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F3/F5 should be removed from EVERY plane.
You've played for a total of less than 3 hours over the past three tours and you expect anyone to give a hoot about your opinion? LOLOLOL
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You've played for a total of less than 3 hours over the past three tours and you expect anyone to give a hoot about your opinion? LOLOLOL
What reasons do the IL-2 need F3 mode as well as A20? Both are classified as attack planes, A20 could be debated but frankly a good stick will win with the plane either way, why does it need f3?
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You've played for a total of less than 3 hours over the past three tours and you expect anyone to give a hoot about your opinion? LOLOLOL
i've played more than 3 hours, but time sitting in field guns killing vulchers doesn't count :)
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What reasons do the IL-2 need F3 mode as well as A20? Both are classified as attack planes, A20 could be debated but frankly a good stick will win with the plane either way, why does it need f3?
Aside from a the standard rule of having all bombers with 3 or more crew members having F3, the fact remains that the A-20 is completely blind to the rear. It is, after all, a bomber. A very high performance bomber, but a bomber nonetheless. The Boston, just as fast and even more agile at low speed has F3....
The problem here is that this is a very slippery slope. What criteria would HTC use? How do we decide which aircraft lose F3? What about the TBM, the SBD and the D3a? All have forward firing guns. All can out-turn most fighters...
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While we're at it - remove F3 in the DA as well. I hate pray & spray, BnZ Tempests who make impossible under-the-nose shots while doing Mach 3 from their atmosphere re-entry while I'm fighting five of their buddies.
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While we're at it - remove F3 in the DA as well. I hate pray & spray, BnZ Tempests who make impossible under-the-nose shots while doing Mach 3 from their atmosphere re-entry while I'm fighting five of their buddies.
LOL it would be nice actually, I used to love DA lake until ^ became the only way people play now a days.
Bad as the MA gets it is no where near as bad as a dozen tempys doing mach 3 in F3 mode.
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LOL it would be nice actually, I used to love DA lake until ^ became the only way people play now a days.
Bad as the MA gets it is no where near as bad as a dozen tempys doing mach 3 in F3 mode.
You know, I hate being a tin foil hat - wearing paranoid, but it's just so blatantly obvious.
Sorry for the hijack :angel:
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What reasons do the IL-2 need F3 mode as well as A20? Both are classified as attack planes, A20 could be debated but frankly a good stick will win with the plane either way, why does it need f3?
I think all 3 should have F3 IF nothing is done to mitigate "hordeswaggle vulchfests" :aok
OR
Have 2 types of hangars, 1 type being "aircraft" hangars, ALL planes can up from them and vehicle hangars
Otherwise I don't see a need for F3 in these planes :D
JUGgler
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Its very simple, allow f3 mode for bombers, just make it so no one can shoot while in 3rd person. :salute
Moving right along.
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Well, tour 150 is nearly over and I thought that I'd check my A-20 stats...
74 kills, 4 deaths.
Against aircraft, 39 kills, 1 death. I believe the one death resulted from a collision with a P-51. All air to air kills were in defense of an airfield (all kills, both air and ground resulted from defending a base).
A6M5b: 1
B-17G: 3
B-24J: 1
Bf 109F-4: 1
Bf 109G-14: 1
Brewster B-239: 1
C-47A: 1
F4U-1: 1
F4U-1A: 2
F4U-1D: 2
F6F-5 : 5
La-7: 2
Lancaster III: 2
N1K2: 5
P-47N: 1
P-51D: 4
SeaFire: 2
Spitfire Mk IX: 2
Spitfire Mk VIII: 2
I'm usually below 5k, frequently on the deck.
So yeah, if flown intelligently, the A-20 is a potent adversary. IMHO, it's single greatest advantage is that few opposing pilots take it seriously... At least until they find themselves in the tower.
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Well, tour 150 is nearly over and I thought that I'd check my A-20 stats...
76 kills, 4 deaths.
Against aircraft, 41 kills, 1 death. I believe the one death resulted from a collision with a P-51. All air to air kills were in defense of an airfield (all kills, both air and ground resulted from defending a base).
A6M5b: 1
B-17G: 3
B-24J: 1
Bf 109F-4: 1
Bf 109G-14: 1
Brewster B-239: 1
C-47A: 1
F4U-1: 1
F4U-1A: 2
F4U-1D: 2
F6F-5: 5
La-7: 2
Lancaster III: 2
N1K2: 5
P-38L: 1
P-47N: 1
P-51D: 4
SeaFire: 2
Spitfire Mk IX: 2
Spitfire Mk VIII: 2
Spitfire Mk XVI: 1
I'm usually below 5k, frequently on the deck.
So yeah, if flown intelligently, the A-20 is a potent adversary. IMHO, it's single greatest advantage is that few opposing pilots take it seriously... At least until they find themselves in the tower.
Updated the above....
I had time to fly one A-20 sortie this afternoon... Added a Spit16 and P-38... Neither had a clue what to expect.... :D
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Maybe it is because I read these forums, but I always approach and A-20 with caution and assume it will be able to fight back effectively. I'm not particularly good at the game, but I've yet to lose anything to one. I did meet one the other day while flying a Mossie, but I was well above him and he'd recently been engaged with another fighter. The A-20 was pretty tough and he managed to ditch in the ocean.
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As a joke I upped an A20 few times today ended up with this:
Late War Tour 150
Kills by Butcher in an
A-20G by model type
Model Type Kills Percent
A6M5b 1 10.000
Bf 110G-2 1 10.000
F4U-1A 1 10.000
Fw 190A-8 2 20.000
Hurricane Mk I 1 10.000
P-51D 1 10.000
SeaFire 3 30.000
One was a CV obviously, other I was simply hunting at 12k - I was killed once by a Seafire off the CV, and second sortie by a wirbl that the P51D dragged me too.
10 kills, 2 deaths not a bad run :)
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figured i would give it a try too :airplane:
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/150b.gif)
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:D :aok
edit : 20 ponies ... that must be roughly 20 rage-quits ... for that you get a :rock
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:D :aok
edit : 20 ponies ... that must be roughly 20 rage-quits ... for that you get a :rock
Ponies are generally an easy kill :D
If they think their plane is superior to yours (overall) they'll typically try to turn with you for the quick kill.
The problem is...a pony doesnt turn so well compared with almost anything :lol
Unless the pony is using BnZ and to a lesser extent energy fighting, they are a very limited threat, something you can usually determine as soon as you merge.
It seems that the typical mustang driver figures he has the best plane and therefore can do whatever he wants because well...its a P-51! Regardless of tactics and any knowledge about what his opponent is flying.
After the merge if a pony breaks hard, he either really knows what he's doing (unlikely most of the time) or he's thinking he'll get a quick kill, or unfortunatley....thinks he's going to get the best out of a turnfight.
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One of my duels with cobia, 51D vs A20 in an equal E merge was probably the most fun. The Pony will turn with the A20, it just doesnt have the acceleration push the A20 into a vertical fight. Once you lose that E turning, it's gone. Impossible to get it back without running/extending. In that fight, I could keep cobia from getting guns on me but I couldn't get my guns on him either. We kept going in this vertical scissors and was going nowhere. I broke off to try and flat turn but that didn't work out too well. :lol
The few times that I tried to get guns on cobia, using hard rudder movements, I could only get maybe 1/10th of a second before snap stalling and then I'd have to reset for another 1/10th second shot. If a Pony pilot can keep it from snap stalling (I'm no Pony expert and couldn't do it myself), he'd definitely win in a vertical scissors. I just couldn't control that snap stall.
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Yeah, P-51Ds are tasty to the Mossie as well. Many of them think they can just out turn the big twin and by the time they realize otherwise it is too late.
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P-51D as well as the spitties are the rides of the clueless. New players fly the most famous planes - not only they are not very familiar with their own ride, they know even less about what they are up against. With the spitties they can often get away with simple stick pulling. Not so much with the P51.
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Hey, I'd rather have a fight with 10 clueless noobs and get shot down than 1 "fight" with a vet who turns and runs. ;)
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Think about this... The first block of A-20Gs delivered had four 20mm Hispanos in the nose... Many of these were delivered to the Soviets, who used them very effectively.
When HTC redoes the A-20/Boston, aside from incorporating the missing ventral gun, I'd like to see the 20mm cannon option... With that, I image the the howls about perking the A-20 would be epic, but keep in mind that the Mossie 6 had four 20mm and four .303 MGs in the nose....
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/551/pics/1_5.jpg)
A-20G-1...Lacks the power turret.. Useless to me as it is. I'd love the lighter, 20mm (and 2 .50cal) nose gun -1 version..
(http://www.americancombatplanes.com/images/13-60n.jpg)
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Think about this... The first block of A-20Gs delivered had four 20mm Hispanos in the nose... Many of these were delivered to the Soviets, who used them very effectively.
When HTC redoes the A-20/Boston, aside from incorporating the missing ventral gun, I'd like to see the 20mm cannon option... With that, I image the the howls about perking the A-20 would be epic, but keep in mind that the Mossie 6 had four 20mm and four .303 MGs in the nose....
The only problem I have with that, Widewing, is that the 10% of A-20Gs that had the four 20mm would then make up about 95% of the A-20Gs used in AH. If the four 20mm option is added I'd like to see the loadout perk system with it and do a light 1 or 2 point perk cost.
Guys have pointed out that the Mossie VI has the same armament, so what's the big deal, but 100% of Mossie VIs had the cannons.
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The only problem I have with that, Widewing, is that the 10% of A-20Gs that had the four 20mm would then make up about 95% of the A-20Gs used in AH. If the four 20mm option is added I'd like to see the loadout perk system with it and do a light 1 or 2 point perk cost.
Guys have pointed out that the Mossie VI has the same armament, so what's the big deal, but 100% of Mossie VIs had the cannons.
No different than the LA-7... Only a handful of 3 cannon La-7s saw combat, but you almost never see anyone take the two gun option...
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No different than the LA-7... Only a handful of 3 cannon La-7s saw combat, but you almost never see anyone take the two gun option...
I agree with you there. I'd like to see the three cannon option get the same light perk treatment. The four cannon Ki-84 would be another possible example. Perhaps the two cannon, four .50 F6F as well.
That said, there is less of a difference between the two cannon and three cannon La-7 than there is between the six .50 and four 20mm armed A-20G.
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I agree with you there. I'd like to see the three cannon option get the same light perk treatment. The four cannon Ki-84 would be another possible example. Perhaps the two cannon, four .50 F6F as well.
That said, there is less of a difference between the two cannon and three cannon La-7 than there is between the six .50 and four 20mm armed A-20G.
I don't disagree with a small perk on optional gun and ordnance packages. The problem, I think, is that this would require a very big programming change...
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I don't disagree with a small perk on optional gun and ordnance packages. The problem, I think, is that this would require a very big programming change...
It is something HiTech has said he wanted to do in the past. It was the reason the F4U-1C was not initially updated graphically with the other F4Us as it was going to become a perked ordnance option for the F4U-1D.
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That's because the F4UC's guns make it unbalancing in the MA. Unless HTC has changed their minds the last couple of years, historical factors should not, and are not, relevant to HTC's perking system. An A-20G with cannons won't be more unbalancing than the Mossie is today, or in other words, not unbalancing at all. A gun/ord perk system would probably be more convenient for HTC, but that's all. However, a system for deactivating certain gun and ord options would be nice for historical events.
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I would rather see eny change or what htc did with C hog. Same plane just perked. Though if C hog is just a f4ud with 20mm why does it have different ords loadout? But -1 for perked ords.
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I would rather see eny change or what htc did with C hog. Same plane just perked. Though if C hog is just a f4ud with 20mm why does it have different ords loadout? But -1 for perked ords.
Why don't you like the idea of perked ords? It wouldn't be all ord options.
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I have nothing to add Just upping my post count :bolt:
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I really hate the idea of dropn ords and losing perks for it
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I really hate the idea of dropn ords and losing perks for it
It wouldn't have to work that way. It could still be a "land the airplane and get the perks back."
Also, how do you drop 20mm cannons, which have been the subject of each suggested perk loadout here?
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Maybe when ammo runs out, you throw the barrels at the enemy ? :rofl
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I really hate the idea of dropn ords and losing perks for it
1) In the current perk system you deposit perks when getting the plane out the hangar. You get them back if you return it (See Karnak above).
2) What do you use your perks for? they are next to useless, unless you are a 262 griefer.
3) Not all ord are suggested to be perked. Smaller bombs will be free.
Perked ordnance is one of the best suggestions that are not implemented yet.
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It wouldn't have to work that way. It could still be a "land the airplane and get the perks back."
Also, how do you drop 20mm cannons, which have been the subject of each suggested perk loadout here?
was always talk of perking ords ei the 40 500lb on b-29, 1000lb load outs on US fighters ect. thats only reason i says no to perkn ords even if its a gun package. + i think would be easier for them to just take a20 add 20mm and have new plane thats perked. vs adding a perked ords system. but im now 100% on that but it does seem that way
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why should it be perked with 20mm cannons , mosquito are still a better fighter with same options as the A20.
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why should it be perked with 20mm cannons , mosquito are still a better fighter with same options as the A20.
maybe but it doesn't have 3 lives, F3 views, and 8*500lb bombs
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maybe but it doesn't have 3 lives, F3 views, and 8*500lb bombs
A-20s don't have bomb sights, and hence, don't have a formation option. Bostons do. However, Bostons only carry four 500 lb bombs and only have four .303 MGs in the nose. Bostons (an older version of the A-20) have fabric covered control surfaces, which are not nearly as effective as the A-20G's metal covered surfaces.
The advantage of the A-20, aside from better control forces, is the six .50 cal MGs in the nose. It hides E better than any other aircraft that can dogfight. They simply don't look like they're carrying as much speed as they can be. When the red icon guys goes vertical, they're often very surprised to find the A-20 still there and sometimes.... Closing. Yet, the A-20 can scrub E very quickly. I dropped in behind a fleeing Dora last evening, about 600 yards behind. The Dora pilot did the worst thing he could have done... He chopped power and maneuvered to force an over-shoot. If you could make fly a Dora backwards, it still couldn't burn off E quicker than the Havoc.
I've said it before... If one engages an A-20 and the Havoc pilot has good skills and knows his airplane, the other guy can not afford to fly lazy or he will get hammered.
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why should it be perked with 20mm cannons , mosquito are still a better fighter with same options as the A20.
Because if it isn't perked then all the A-20Gs you see will have the quad 20mm cannons, completely drowning out the historically significant armament of six .50s. The Mosquito is not comparable as 100% of Mosquito Mk VIs had four 20mm cannons compared to less than 10% of A-20Gs.
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I've said it before... If one engages an A-20 and the Havoc pilot has good skills and knows his airplane, the other guy can not afford to fly lazy or he will get hammered.
:headscratch: I agree, I was commenting on the A20/mossie comparison.
IMO the only overpowered part on the A20 is the hit points. I just can't find a reason for it to be able to soak 40mm hits, while other twin engined planes like the 110 can't take any.
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Yes Cobia38 & others who use differential throttle controls to slow the inside turn and speed up the outside turn. They do a similar trick in Lancs & other big gangley birds. :aok saw one beat several fighters in a row down deep in a canyon one day. :salute
Has nothing to do with differential throttle.
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Yeah, as a guy who used dual throttles for years - I can tell you it does not help your turning ability one bit. It will help you roll slightly quicker and it allows you to execute cleaner hammerheads.
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I wouldn't like to see the a20 with cannons perked just lower eny
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Yeah, as a guy who used dual throttles for years - I can tell you it does not help your turning ability one bit. It will help you roll slightly quicker and it allows you to execute cleaner hammerheads.
I set a button for Select Engine on my joystick for the times I flew a 38 just so I could hammerhead so perfectly. I could count on my hands how many times in my whole flying career it actually payed off, but it was always fun to do.
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With this analogy 3 * 20mm LA7 would be perked too .
Because if it isn't perked then all the A-20Gs you see will have the quad 20mm cannons, completely drowning out the historically significant armament of six .50s. The Mosquito is not comparable as 100% of Mosquito Mk VIs had four 20mm cannons compared to less than 10% of A-20Gs.
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With this analogy 3 * 20mm LA7 would be perked too .
If we ever get to see perked ordnance and loadout options (:pray), then yes.
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Why?
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With this analogy 3 * 20mm LA7 would be perked too .
Indeed, and so I have argued in this very thread.
Other candidates that I have listed would be things like the Spitfire Mk Ib, F6F-5N and Ki-84-Otsu.
Why?
The vast, vast majority of La-7s to see combat were armed with two 20mm cannons whereas in AH almost all La-7s carry the three 20mm armament.
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Is that a good reason to perk the guns? The MA is not a historically correct arena.
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Is that a good reason to perk the guns? The MA is not a historically correct arena.
From my perspective, I'd like the versions of units most used in the MAs to be the common versions historically. This is a game using WWII equipment and it seems to be that the most representative models should be the most common.
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I agree, but only for semi-historical arenas like the AvA and historical scenarios. The MA should IMHO be a no holds barred arena where only the unbalancing units and options get perked.
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I agree, but only for semi-historical arenas like the AvA and historical scenarios. The MA should IMHO be a no holds barred arena where only the unbalancing units and options get perked.
quad cannon A20 would be unbalacing for sure, and if the la7 had 2 cannons maybe you'd see more 109's and 190's....
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No I don't think so. The La-7's performance at low alt is why ppl fly it, not its guns, and a cannon armed A-20G would be no more unbalancing than the Mossie or 110G is now; in other words, not unbalancing at all.
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sure, 4 cannons, 8x500lb bombs, made of titanium, F3 view, it wouldn't be unbalancing at all :rolleyes:
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No I don't think it would.
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Unbalancing, no, but it would almost certainly see more use than the Bf110G-2, Me410, Mosquito Mk VI and B-25H combined.
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How are its usage numbers now?
As a light/medium bomber/attacker the A-20 is very good, but against fighter its performance falls short of the Mossie and 110G. So you have to sacrifice a lot to get those extra three-to-four eggs.
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How are its usage numbers now?
I could create a more detailed comparison later, but the A-20 is indeed seeing a lot of usage as the games' #1 airborne GV killer
2011 numbers: (excluding LVT / PT)
A-20 44,553 GV kills
Il-2 31,769
P-51D 25,410
(...)
B-25H 10,199
Bf110G 9,103
Mossie VI 7,467
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So it seems the A-20G already see more use than the Bf110G-2, Me410, Mosquito Mk VI and B-25H combined, at least in the anti-GV role.
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So it seems the A-20G already see more use than the Bf110G-2, Me410, Mosquito Mk VI and B-25H combined, at least in the anti-GV role.
Adding a quad of 20mm cannons to it will reduce the incentive to use those other aircraft even more and thus reduce diversity.
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Here we go:
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5060/twinattackers2011.jpg)
A2G category includes kills of an deaths by PT and LVT, and also deaths by (ship or field) gunner
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How good could it be if a Stuka can kill it?
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/Aces%20High/Stuka1.png)
:devil
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Adding a quad of 20mm cannons to it will reduce the incentive to use those other aircraft even more and thus reduce diversity.
People aren't choosing the A-20G for its guns or performance now, so it must be the large payload and F3 view. Giving it better guns won't change much I think. People choose the Mossie and 110G for their performance in addition to great guns and good payload. I don't see that changing much either.
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How good could it be if a Stuka can kill it?
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/Aces%20High/Stuka1.png)
:devil
Well, even a blind pig finds the corn now and then.... ;)
The other evening, I spent the better part of the evening using and A-20 to furball at A39 on the Trinity map. Lost three to fighters (mostly picks by the guys otherwise afraid to get into the fight). I lost two more to a Wirbel and an Osti while furballing near the enemy GV spawn. And, I lost three on the rearm pad to vulchers. I guess because that's the low risk way to get kills when you're a nervous bowl of Jello. One offender, after strafing me on the rearm pad in his Spit14, had the nerve to send me a <salute>!! No salute for you..... :rolleyes:
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But Widewing, I'd happily strafe ya on the rearm/runway :devil Ok, maybe not, much more fun fighting in the air - win or lose (I generally lose, but have fun doing so)
Wurz
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One offender, after strafing me on the rearm pad in his Spit14, had the nerve to send me a <salute>!! No salute for you..... :rolleyes:
"I dove on an A20 for the attack. It wad very low and slow, practically 0 speed and alt just going over the rearm pad in its base (hiding in the acks the coward). The A20 pilot even pulled the dirty trick of lowering the gear to slow down even more - must be an ace flying this one I thought. I kicked full rudder and while fighting Spit14s accelerated stall, buzzer whining in my ears, I managed to get a shot in just before over shooting. He reversed me! I pulled up hard nearly hitting the structures next to the rearm pad. I looked back in fear, expecting to see the A20 zooming after me like a UFO, but I must have hit the cockpit because to my relief I saw it explode. Then came the happy text message:
System: you have show down Widewing #1
I gave him a salute for the brilliant trick with lowering the gears, but he did not <S> back the snob. Probably rage quit."
This is his side of the story. Just tell it like it was.
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"I dove on an A20 for the attack. It wad very low and slow, practically 0 speed and alt just going over the rearm pad in its base (hiding in the acks the coward). The A20 pilot even pulled the dirty trick of lowering the gear to slow down even more - must be an ace flying this one I thought. I kicked full rudder and while fighting Spit14s accelerated stall, buzzer whining in my ears, I managed to get a shot in just before over shooting. He reversed me! I pulled up hard nearly hitting the structures next to the rearm pad. I looked back in fear, expecting to see the A20 zooming after me like a UFO, but I must have hit the cockpit because to my relief I saw it explode. Then came the happy text message:
System: you have show down Widewing #1
I gave him a salute for the brilliant trick with lowering the gears, but he did not <S> back the snob. Probably rage quit."
This is his side of the story. Just tell it like it was.
I don't fly as Widewing, haven't for two years... I fly as TredLite. As I saw the Spit angling in to strafe, I firedwalled the throttles and kicked rudder in an attempt to throw off his shot. I barely got off the rearm pad before I got clobbered...
Same guy, a bit later... I rearm, and roll to the runway. As my wheels lift, I see a Dora heading straight at me. I haven't the speed to have any chance to evade, get clobbered again. Later, I was smacked on the rearm pad again by a different guy.
Now, if this was a base capture attempt, I would not complain. That's the price one pays trying to get airborne under those circumstances. What we had here was the typical in-between base furball, that moved back and forth from the edge of one base to the other. Getting picked in a target rich environment is prime hazard of furballing. I can live with that, it goes with the circumstances. However, diving past a dozen red icons to vulch is simply bad form, IMHO.
Note, I have not mentioned the offending player's handle. However, he's a regular on these boards... I won't mention his name either. It would serve no purpose.
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Widewing, you need not explain, that was a joke.
I need to install a new humor plugin.
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However, diving past a dozen red icons to vulch is simply bad form, IMHO.
I've done that before out of pure frustration although it's been several years.
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As I saw the Spit angling in to strafe, I firedwalled the throttles and kicked rudder in an attempt to throw off his shot. I barely got off the rearm pad before I got clobbered...
You were on tarmac, why didn't you just .ef ?
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You were on tarmac, why didn't you just .ef ?
I had evaded an inept vulcher earlier, and figured I might get lucky and evade that one too... Besides, it never occurred to me to just tower... My stupid.... ;)
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Yeah, I always try not to give vulchers a free kill. Wait until they're engaged by ack and then I .ef immediately. ;)
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Tonight, I flew the A-20 in a furball again. Was great fun until the Knits decided to horde it up. Nonetheless, I went 15/1 air to air, and four T-34s earlier as well. The one lose being the result of clipping a tree, while evading an HOing spit, a K-4 and some dweeb in a P-38. The HOing Spit pinged me up a bit and got the kill. I immediately re-upped another A-20, found him and shot his backside down.
Another character loses two P-40Cs to my A-20. He writes on 200: "TredLite, I'm filming this..."
LOLOL. I wrote back, "good, you need to learn why you suck!"
This guy (firebal6), was incredulous. I explained that the A-20 is nearly 20 mph faster on the deck and with just 25% fuel (actually, about half that at the time), easily out-climbs the P-40C (3k per minute vs about 2.2k per minute). He replied, "Yeah, but can the A-20 out-turn the P-40C?"
"Yes." In a manner of speaking... The P-40C cannot sustain a turn on the deck with the A-20, which has a significant power advantage.
His problem was more along the line that he had no ACM skills of note... Fighting a Co-E, Co-alt A-20 in the vertical is a bad idea in most fighters, much more so when you're flying a P-40C. Our second fight was the same, with the same result, despite dodging a picking P-51D flown by some guy named Heavy... I shot down Heavy's P-51 too, and three Lancasters, which those other two were trying to protect. It's hard to protect bombers when you can't protect yourself... So, firebal6, if you read the BBS, go and watch that film. You'll see why you fared so poorly.
Anyway... Three Spits, 3 P-40s, 3 Lancs, a P-51D, La-7, B-25H, Niki, 109G-14 and an IL-2.
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Sounds like firebal6 is jumping into the P-40C before he is ready to try to compete in the LWA in as challenging a ride as the P-40C.
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I reckon fair play to him for trying something a bit more challenging than the usual late war monsters :aok
(hes a squaddie so I may be biased ;))
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I reckon fair play to him for trying something a bit more challenging than the usual late war monsters :aok
(hes a squaddie so I may be biased ;))
firebal6 wasn't lacking for spirit, that's for sure. Karnak is right, he should be prepared for a rough flight flying the P-40C into an LWA furball. He needs some practice and training, but he's certainly not timid.
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I reckon fair play to him for trying something a bit more challenging than the usual late war monsters :aok
(hes a squaddie so I may be biased ;))
I don't think the P-40C counts as "a bit more challenging." :p Frankly, I think it is likely the single most challenging fighter to succeed in.
Good on him for being willing to jump into the deep end, but maybe something halfway like a Bf109F-4 or Ki-61 might be a better place to start.
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I should also mention that we have an ongoing EW plane squad challenge - so expect to see us in completely uncompetitive rides every now and then :D
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Well, even a blind pig finds the corn now and then.... ;)
The other evening, I spent the better part of the evening using and A-20 to furball at A39 on the Trinity map. Lost three to fighters (mostly picks by the guys otherwise afraid to get into the fight). I lost two more to a Wirbel and an Osti while furballing near the enemy GV spawn. And, I lost three on the rearm pad to vulchers. I guess because that's the low risk way to get kills when you're a nervous bowl of Jello. One offender, after strafing me on the rearm pad in his Spit14, had the nerve to send me a <salute>!! No salute for you..... :rolleyes:
You shouldn't get a credit for shooting a plane with it's wheels on concrete. No name in lights or perks IMO. You should still be able to kill it, just no credit.
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(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg)
:noid
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:rofl :aok
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(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg)
:noid
:rofl :noid
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Had a 1v1 with an A-20 against my 190d. I purposely turned fight and I believe if I didn't miss a key shot I could have had him. But he flamed me at the end as those guns do some damage. Was a fun turn fight against a good stick and though I lost I learned the A-20 should not be toyed with. :joystick:
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Cobia shot my Hog down in a turn fight one time. :cry
I got mad. :bhead
I PM'ed Cobia and explained that he should not do that again, as I would sneak into the hangar and blow his precious Havoc up on the ground. I then rethought this, believing I had made a tactical error in letting the enemy know what I was going to do before I did it. I made haste to the nearest Knight hangar and did what I had to do.
(http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozcrashes/qld231-03.jpg)
I believe this is the best way to deal with this A20 issue we're having.
:D
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You have to wonder why the flight manual warns against aerobatics.
Yet you can do it easily in AHII with out to much danger of anything breaking.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/103229465/Douglas-a-20-G-amp-J-P-70-a-amp-B-Flight-Op-Inst-Nov-1944-C?secret_password=4x4px705gknvo04aej2
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You have to wonder why the flight manual warns against aerobatics.
Yet you can do it easily in AHII with out to much danger of anything breaking.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/103229465/Douglas-a-20-G-amp-J-P-70-a-amp-B-Flight-Op-Inst-Nov-1944-C?secret_password=4x4px705gknvo04aej2
(http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/74otz6ee0w1rhypy/images/32-3e347cd7bf.jpg)
Note the G limit restriction... As weight goes up, the limit drops correspondingly. It's still easy to break wings at less than 25% fuel without bombs... 6g is the restriction, but I don't know what HTC has modeled.
What bugs me about the A-20 is that single ping pilot deaths from the front indicate to me that HTC has not modeled cockpit armor (including the armored windshield).
(http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/74otz6ee0w1rhypy/images/7-64db9580dc.jpg)
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What bugs me about the A-20 is that single ping pilot deaths from the front indicate to me that HTC has not modeled cockpit armor (including the armored windshield).
All twin engined fighters seem to suffer this much more than single engined fighters. Is the A-20 noticeably worse about it than the P-38, Bf110 and Mossie?
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All twin engined fighters seem to suffer this much more than single engined fighters. Is the A-20 noticeably worse about it than the P-38, Bf110 and Mossie?
The A20 Can take some punishment but not alot
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The A20 Can take some punishment but not alot
name another plane in the game of similar size that can take multiple 30mm hits
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name another plane in the game of similar size that can take multiple 30mm hits
I said not alot of damage but i have lost some critical parts and still flew
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The A20 Can take some punishment but not alot
name another plane in the game of similar size that can take multiple 30mm hits
Widewing and I were both talking about the ease of pilot hits and nothing more.
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yeah sorry for the hijack, I have a thing against the A20's :t
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yeah sorry for the hijack, I have a thing against the A20's :t
A20s would 'play' a more realistic role if f3 was disabled on them.
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A20s would 'play' a more realistic role if f3 was disabled on them.
Dream on,disabling F3 wont stop dedicated havoc pyschopaths like me :devil
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Dream on,disabling F3 wont stop dedicated havoc pyschopaths like me :devil
:rofl :rofl Oh au contraire my pixel-nemesis, when I played, I loved running into you... twas fun! :cheers:
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All twin engined fighters seem to suffer this much more than single engined fighters. Is the A-20 noticeably worse about it than the P-38, Bf110 and Mossie?
Yes, single ping pilot deaths... Lost 5 A-20s this tour to this. Obviously, there's no armor modeled forward of the pilot. Clearly, the manual shows extensive armor protection on the A-20G.
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name another plane in the game of similar size that can take multiple 30mm hits
With the A-20 it depends a lot on shot placement. Hitting anywhere on the fuselage aft of the cockpit, the A-20 can absorb a lot of damage because of the large empty space and lack of critical components. Aim for the cockpit area, wing root or tail section and you'll see the A-20 really doesn't take that much amount of ammo to bring down. The wing root area is quite susceptible to damage.
ack-ack
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With the A-20 it depends a lot on shot placement. Hitting anywhere on the fuselage aft of the cockpit, the A-20 can absorb a lot of damage because of the large empty space and lack of critical components. Aim for the cockpit area, wing root or tail section and you'll see the A-20 really doesn't take that much amount of ammo to bring down. The wing root area is quite susceptible to damage.
ack-ack
I FOUND Out the Hard way not to pull back on the stick with 2 500lbs bombs on the wings :rofl :cry
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I FOUND Out the Hard way not to pull back on the stick with 2 500lbs bombs on the wings :rofl :cry
it carrys bombs ? :headscratch: you sure ? :headscratch:
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Dream on,disabling F3 wont stop dedicated havoc pyschopaths like me :devil
:D
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it carrys bombs ? :headscratch: you sure ? :headscratch:
:rofl :bolt:
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I think if the A-20 was remodeled it would loose a lot of its bite, remember it is a Ah1 flight model and damage model.
It would also gain the ability to use the .30 in the belly (that is not modeled correctly right now) so it would have a bit more defense.
The A-20 USE to have a huge bug where any hit would be instantly redirected to the cockpit area leading to a dang near instant -poof-. When it was fixed the AC became a monster, before people would take the time to pounce you using .30cals because they knew any hits would lead to the flying gas tank going kaboom, now is no longer the case. The wings have become much more brittle In the past years, as before you could carry 50% fuel full ords and still pull back heavy on the stick pulling out of a high alt dive over targets. Now unless you hit backspace and release those wing bombs first before pulling out of a high speed dive, your looking to make yourself a lawn dart.
What bothers me the most about this AC is the stick forces, for some reason the ac "bounces/jerks" around alot, even with minor stick imput, that left people the ability to "jerk" the planes nose around without stalling or loosing much energy (trust me, its one of the reasons i love it so much) You also have the ability to hit page up to a high gun angle that left little in the way of guess work. Compound that with six .50's packed close together in the nose, left a AC that could rapid redirect its cone of fire without sacrificing much in the way of speed and energy, could LAZER targets out of the sky and has a ton of ammo to do it with.
I would LOVE to see the A-20 remodeled, the .30 added the x4 20mm option added (with perk points) and the option to take the rear turret off. (possible?) It always bugged me to have the weight of a person equipment and a fully loaded .30cal that could never be used or seen. Even if the gun could be removed,that's another 300+ lbs in crew/equipment and ammo in itself.
This bird just needs a face lift, it would change like night and day.
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I appreciate ingenuity and clever ACM. However, I am for anything that ensures the A20 is NOT a fighter killing monster (as was the case in WWII). :old:
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I appreciate ingenuity and clever ACM. However, I am for anything that ensures the A20 is NOT a fighter killing monster (as was the case in WWII). :old:
it's not...it is quite easy to kill....even when Cobia is in it.....although he makes it a bit more difficult.
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it's not...it is quite easy to kill....even when Cobia is in it.....although he makes it a bit more difficult.
I agree.
I have seen some A20's do things that defy physics it seems. If this is what they could do in WWII then more power to those pilots otherwise it should be fixed.
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I agree.
I have seen some A20's do things that defy physics it seems. If this is what they could do in WWII then more power to those pilots otherwise it should be fixed.
Then you would have to change every plane in the game. In real life there were rules and limitations they put on planes for safety, or to not over stress parts to have an aircraft last longer. The maneuvers we do in most fighters would not have been used in the real world due to these limits and rules. Structurally the aircraft COULD do it, but they didn't want you to do it. With the ability to get another clean and ready plane, or just another life, we can push those limits.
To limit the A20 because they didn't do it in real life means you would have to limit everything else.
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Good points Fugitive.
To limit the A20 because they didn't do it in real life means you would have to limit everything else.
How about we just tweak the A20 to inhibit it to be able to fly like a Tie Fighter? No need to change the entire game. The context of this thread is just to tweak the A20 into normalcy with respect to it being able to be flown as a fighter plane. Thats it.
I am not stuck on this. If there are overwhelming people that pay their $ in major part to be able to fly an A20 as a Tie Fighter so be it.
It is just a preference. Like Ink says...you can still shoot them down!
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Good points Fugitive.
How about we just tweak the A20 to inhibit it to be able to fly like a Tie Fighter? No need to change the entire game. The context of this thread is just to tweak the A20 into normalcy with respect to it being able to be flown as a fighter plane. Thats it.
I am not stuck on this. If there are overwhelming people that pay their $ in major part to be able to fly an A20 as a Tie Fighter so be it.
It is just a preference. Like Ink says...you can still shoot them down!
In what way do you feel it is like a "tie fighter" :headscratch:
Most late war rides will outrun it,some will out turn it,most will out climb it.
The only thing it has going for it is great guns,outstanding zoom climb,and one of the best rudders in the game.
ohhhh and rumor has it that it can carry 8 500 lb bombs too
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In what way do you feel it is like a "tie fighter" :headscratch:
Most late war rides will outrun it,some will out turn it,most will out climb it.
The only thing it has going for it is great guns,outstanding zoom climb,and one of the best rudders in the game.
ohhhh and rumor has it that it can carry 8 500 lb bombs too
and 2 lives, and F3
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and 2 lives, and F3
please explain how F3 makes it manuver better,IA out turn/out run/outclimb/ect.
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please explain how F3 makes it manuver better,IA out turn/out run/outclimb/ect.
its still part of its capabilities
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In what way do you feel it is like a "tie fighter" :headscratch:
Most late war rides will outrun it,some will out turn it,most will out climb it.
The only thing it has going for it is great guns,outstanding zoom climb,and one of the best rudders in the game.
ohhhh and rumor has it that it can carry 8 500 lb bombs too
The problem that some people have is that the A-20 in game is that it's capabilities in game sometimes don't mesh with reality. In real life, the A-20 was restricted from maneuvering like some pilots throw it around in game and they probably would like to see the same restrictions placed on it in real life be placed on it in game.
ack-ack
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The problem that some people have is that the A-20 in game is that it's capabilities in game sometimes don't mesh with reality. In real life, the A-20 was restricted from maneuvering like some pilots throw it around in game and they probably would like to see the same restrictions placed on it in real life be placed on it in game.
ack-ack
Make it realistic where if you pose unrestricted moves you break off parts off the aircraft. I agree, just because it was "tested" and could do a barrel roll, does not mean it was done in combat, more so i would see this as being completely restricted.
Actually I take it back, its a video game - things are going to be done in the video game that wern't done in real life, i.e you can barrel roll a B-17 in game. I would honestly oppose to a G-limit for the aircraft, that won't allow it going beyond that.
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what were the G-limits for the Havoc?
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what were the G-limits for the Havoc?
An A-20G pilot verbally told me that rolling upside down was forbidden.
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The problem that some people have is that the A-20 in game is that it's capabilities in game sometimes don't mesh with reality. In real life, the A-20 was restricted from maneuvering like some pilots throw it around in game and they probably would like to see the same restrictions placed on it in real life be placed on it in game.
ack-ack
but the same could be said about a lot of planes in the game. F4's and their tricks, B17's doing barrel rolls and so on. Where would it stop? You'd even have to change the P38, see "autoretracting flaps" :noid
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Where would it stop?
Simple. Bombers. Just planes designed to be pure bombers. NOT fighter planes. :old:
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I do recall an account of an RAF pilot having delivered a Spitfire Mk VIII to a USAAF unit just receiving them being asked what its flight limitations were and replying that it was a fighter, it had no flight limitations.
Now, in practice we know a Spitfire cannot be flown inverted for more than a few seconds or the engine will be oil starved.
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An A-20G pilot verbally told me that rolling upside down was forbidden.
I'll have to see if I can find my digital copy of the A-20G flight manual but in the manual it is quite clear about the restrictions on using aerobatics in the A-20G, almost similar to the restrictions on the A-26.
ack-ack
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I'll have to see if I can find my digital copy of the A-20G flight manual but in the manual it is quite clear about the restrictions on using aerobatics in the A-20G, almost similar to the restrictions on the A-26.
ack-ack
Someone has not been reading the entire thread.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,335874.165.html
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so at 19,750lb you can pull to blackout in AH and you are still flying by the book, like RL WWII Havocs. sorted :aok
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barrel roll is a 1g maneuver done correctly, why wouldnt it be able to do it?
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barrel roll is a 1g maneuver done correctly, why wouldnt it be able to do it?
A barrel roll is not the only way to roll upside down.
I would guess he was speaking of the more basic, simple roll.
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I'm totally cool with the A20 handling a 1g or zero g barrel roll.
It's the high positive and negative G stuff that is ridiculous.
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you mean like the 6G turns which the manual says are ok? :headscratch:
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you mean like the 6G turns which the manual says are ok? :headscratch:
Remember, the rated g is always conservative... Typically, aircraft are rated 20% greater below ultimate failure loading. In game, the wings usually fail at 6g when loaded with any ordnance.
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It's almost impossible to break the wings in AH if you have some sort of hearing ability. If you hear the metal stress, stop pulling on the stick. Rarely, in situations like diving at 500mph and you try to pull up with 100% force on the stick, then yea, there's going to be 1 second of the metal stress then poof. But that's easily avoidable as well. The first and only time I ever ripped my wings off was in a Spit 14 diving at around 450mph. Pulled on the stick, not even halfway and I hear "creeeeaaaak" for half a second and then weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
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you mean like the 6G turns which the manual says are ok? :headscratch:
How many negative G is the airplane rated?
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no idea, but I'd guess more than the pilot is rated for ;)
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It's almost impossible to break the wings in AH if you have some sort of hearing ability. If you hear the metal stress, stop pulling on the stick. Rarely, in situations like diving at 500mph and you try to pull up with 100% force on the stick, then yea, there's going to be 1 second of the metal stress then poof. But that's easily avoidable as well. The first and only time I ever ripped my wings off was in a Spit 14 diving at around 450mph. Pulled on the stick, not even halfway and I hear "creeeeaaaak" for half a second and then weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
There is a strange behavior in the game that will snap the wings on planes if one pulls a sudden high g loading. Literally, the wings snap within a split second. In the real world, this is very unlikely as the stress equation includes duration of loading. In short, you have to have both time and amplitude. The AH system seems based solely on the amplitude alone.
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no idea, but I'd guess more than the pilot is rated for ;)
If it's not rated for inverted flight, I doubt it can handle much negative G.
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If it's not rated for inverted flight, I doubt it can handle much negative G.
Without an engine oil system engineered for inverted flight, inverted flight will be forbidden. No WWII U.S. fighters were not authorized for prolonged inverted flight. Oil starvation would result.
I believe the A-20 was rated at 3g negative.