Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: 715 on July 15, 2012, 01:29:45 PM
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Spawning a tank North from V28 on Trinity often puts you at the top of the steep east side cliff. Neither side likes this; the people who spawn up there complain bitterly, especially if they are in a perk tank, and the enemy complain when the people on the cliff top fire down on them. No one likes this "feature" (although watching a tank tumble all the way down the cliff, all the way across the valley, and much of the way back up the opposite cliff is entertaining to many).
Yes, I do know about Search. In fact, searching shows this bug was first reported nearly 4 years ago. I just thought I would jog HTCs memory. The solution should be simple: center the spawn arrow in the valley making the random radius less likely to include the cliff tops.
Quote from Skuzzy: I handle all the bug fixes and they are done pretty soon after any bug report.
The problem is, most of the bug reports do not contain enough information to fix the problem.
We need terrain name (every terrain has the name located on the clipboard map), the feild in question, if not a field issue, then the sector number and approximate location in the sector where the problem is. Then finally a description of the problem so that we can reproduce it.
When you are trying to find an issue in 262,144 square miles of terrain, it is difficult to do without the above information.
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Wrong; many people like this feature. If you don't like it, don't spawn there.
MH
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They don't like it so much when the inadvertantly spawn there in a Tiger and roll it by accident coming down the steep cliff (also by accident). It is a bug so why not fix it?
I agree that it could be entertaining at times, but when it is something that is known to some and not all, the potential for abuse and/ or critical mishap and complaints are not worth it.
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I have seen 100 people happily shooting from the top of that cliff, or happily using it to run around to the enemy's rear, for every 1 person who takes a perk tank up there. Actually the latter (rear) is even more tactically interesting than the former. So I think the community gets more satisfaction from this than grief.
Also, you can just drive up from the town, avoiding the spawn, if you don't want to risk a perk tank. That is sometimes a good idea anyway with a Tiger, as much of the lower portion of the spawn point is within decisive firing range of the ridge on the valley floor. It takes an extra 5 minutes or so.
MH
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Needs to be fixed. I spawned right on the edge and did not have the opportunity to go one foot before tumbling down the mountain. It only seems to happen in Perk tanks, to me anyway.
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Don't take a perk tank to a place where it cannot safely move.
I would venture a guess that the reason for all of the great battles vs other fields neaby getting zero attention is BECAUSE of that unusual spawn.
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Don't take a perk tank to a place where it cannot safely move.
I would venture a guess that the reason for all of the great battles vs other fields neaby getting zero attention is BECAUSE of that unusual spawn.
Exactly. It's one of the better GV spots in the game. Removing the cliff spawn would make it identical to the 50 other canyon spawns.
MH
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Exactly. It's one of the better GV spots in the game. Removing the cliff spawn would make it identical to the 50 other canyon spawns.
MH
So you agree this one spawn has an exploitable glitch or bug.....point made.
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So you agree this one spawn has an exploitable glitch or bug.....point made.
I agree that you can randomly spawn at the top of a cliff, and that this adds gameplay interest. I don't agree that it should be changed. I also don't understand why you insist on spawning there if you don't like it. You can still drive your perk tank up from the town. I hope all that is clear.
MH
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OK lets be diplomatic.....POLL
Yes or No.
Me....I say Yes....Fix it.
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I feel it increases realism since the sim already gifts you a free ride to within spitting distance of a base.
It's the same reason you sometimes get respawned right in front of a huge boulder in asteroids after hitting the hyperspace button.
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I feel it increases realism since the sim already gifts you a free ride to within spitting distance of a base.
It's the same reason you sometimes get respawned right in front of a huge boulder in asteroids after hitting the hyperspace button.
I think that you just insulted HTC..... :devil
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Yes, I should not have said that NO one likes this "feature". I was only going by what I hear on text and vox; almost everyone complains.
You have to admit that tumbling down the cliff, all the way across the valley, and back up the other side is not exactly prototypical?
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Spawning a tank North from V28 on Trinity often puts you at the top of the steep east side cliff. Neither side likes this; the people who spawn up there complain bitterly, especially if they are in a perk tank, and the enemy complain when the people on the cliff top fire down on them. No one likes this "feature" (although watching a tank tumble all the way down the cliff, all the way across the valley, and much of the way back up the opposite cliff is entertaining to many).
Yes, I do know about Search. In fact, searching shows this bug was first reported nearly 4 years ago. I just thought I would jog HTCs memory. The solution should be simple: center the spawn arrow in the valley making the random radius less likely to include the cliff tops.
Quote from Skuzzy: I handle all the bug fixes and they are done pretty soon after any bug report.
The problem is, most of the bug reports do not contain enough information to fix the problem.
We need terrain name (every terrain has the name located on the clipboard map), the feild in question, if not a field issue, then the sector number and approximate location in the sector where the problem is. Then finally a description of the problem so that we can reproduce it.
When you are trying to find an issue in 262,144 square miles of terrain, it is difficult to do without the above information.
was just about to post the same base! good work 715!!!
It needs fixed or the other side needs to be able to spawn up there too, otherwise there is no way for the other side to get up there. ( I know,, I've tried to climb it)
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Seems pretty divided on whether this is an advantage or not.
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Simply put, expecting every player (whether or not they are a veteran of the game or have ever read the forums) to know to avoid SPECIFIC spawns IS UNREASONABLE.
Whether or not I enjoy, the kicks and giggles is another thing.
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Simply put, expecting every player (whether or not they are a veteran of the game or have ever read the forums) to know to avoid SPECIFIC spawns IS UNREASONABLE.
Whether or not I enjoy, the kicks and giggles is another thing.
Look, I sympathize if you lost a Tiger on the cliff. However, it is my observation that the community gains more enjoyment than grief from this particular spawn, so I say leave it alone. I am not talking “giggles” here, but instead gameplay variety which is missing from the other Trinity canyon spawns.
Here is some additional perspective: You can easily avoid this in future by spawning your Tiger at the Vbase. Earning 25 GV perk points is trivial (you can do it with M3 base resupply, for example). Furthermore, the whole process of spawning is inherently risky. For example, I spawned a Panther into a healthy looking air base last weekend, and about 15 seconds later, the base changed to Rook and all the acks began shooting at me. And of course, the normal risk our (perked and unperked) GVs face is whether the spawn is camped or not.
MH
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I would like to see a video on how to get down if you do not want to be up there. Three times I tried and all three ended up in a roll. I would also like to see you shoot down at other tanks in the valley. I tried to get a bead on the valley floor and could not.
To the point about it not being balanced for both sides.....Good one.
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It's imbalanced and, for the MA, gamey. You can't dispute those facts. Both sides involved can climb an attack aircraft to umpty-thousand-feet. Both sides can break out the pack-mules and pull a flanking expeditionary force starting at their field's hangar and over the top of Mt. Everest if they desire. But only one gets an instantaneous advantage above the canyon to suppress enemy forces and support/overwatch friendly forces.
Trinity has many problems, distracted tankers is one at the gamey spawns utilised for their mini-war within a greater war. Move them to the tank town, which is ignored by the tankers because they have better and more instantaneously gratifying things to exploit/conquer. Not so much for those only concerned with their mini-war, but for those of us concerned with only the greater-war effort.... see, it gets hard to capture a field and progress the map when A) first one has to fight or outmaneuver the mini-war successfully at these fields and B) you cause a great divide within your own ranks of players because one large group wants to continue advancing and another wishes that group ill-fortune for ruining their fun and even another group of 'friendly' players wants the other country to now retake those bases to restore their prized mini-war.
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It's imbalanced <snip>
IMHO, from a game play perspective, this particular location is adequately balanced, and I can attest to this by playing both sides on numerous occasions. If it wasn't, people wouldn't play there. (Note that the clifftop spawn probably reduces the number of Tigers spawned by that side, thus compensating for the clifftop position advantage). While it is balanced, it is assymetrical, but that is part of the attractiveness of it. Again, the proof of the attractiveness of this spawn to most GVers is the fact that it is probably the most consistently populated GV location on Trinity. Anything that induces more people to play has to be good for the game.
BTW, Trinity tank town is little used because it doesn’t typically have the built-in occupancy indicator of a flashing base, which in turn says “Hey, I’m here; come and fight me”. (Also, the symmetrical bowl-shaped center town is boring to fight in). Unusually, last campaign, we did have a fair amount of Trinity TT activity, simply because Knights had captured one of the Rook and one of the Bishop bases, leaving a single Rook and Bishop base remaining. This in turn put the remaining opposing bases closer together, and generated a lot of base raids, causing bases to flash, thus attracting other players and generating quite a few interesting GV battles.
MH
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I aint touching any V spawn on trinity with a 10 foot pole.
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It's imbalanced and, for the MA, gamey. You can't dispute those facts. Both sides involved can climb an attack aircraft to umpty-thousand-feet. Both sides can break out the pack-mules and pull a flanking expeditionary force starting at their field's hangar and over the top of Mt. Everest if they desire. But only one gets an instantaneous advantage above the canyon to suppress enemy forces and support/overwatch friendly forces.
Trinity has many problems, distracted tankers is one at the gamey spawns utilised for their mini-war within a greater war. Move them to the tank town, which is ignored by the tankers because they have better and more instantaneously gratifying things to exploit/conquer. Not so much for those only concerned with their mini-war, but for those of us concerned with only the greater-war effort.... see, it gets hard to capture a field and progress the map when A) first one has to fight or outmaneuver the mini-war successfully at these fields and B) you cause a great divide within your own ranks of players because one large group wants to continue advancing and another wishes that group ill-fortune for ruining their fun and even another group of 'friendly' players wants the other country to now retake those bases to restore their prized mini-war.
Good post but your wrong on one point, the walls of the valley are to steep to scale. There is no way to get a gv up there from the opposing base,,, I've tried!
Now if the other base could spawn up there, it would be great
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I've scaled the valley walls in a m4
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I've scaled the valley walls in a m4
I'd like to see that!
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IMHO, from a game play perspective, this particular location is adequately balanced, and I can attest to this by playing both sides on numerous occasions. If it wasn't, people wouldn't play there. (Note that the clifftop spawn probably reduces the number of Tigers spawned by that side, thus compensating for the clifftop position advantage). While it is balanced, it is assymetrical, but that is part of the attractiveness of it. Again, the proof of the attractiveness of this spawn to most GVers is the fact that it is probably the most consistently populated GV location on Trinity. Anything that induces more people to play has to be good for the game.
BTW, Trinity tank town is little used because it doesn’t typically have the built-in occupancy indicator of a flashing base, which in turn says “Hey, I’m here; come and fight me”. (Also, the symmetrical bowl-shaped center town is boring to fight in). Unusually, last campaign, we did have a fair amount of Trinity TT activity, simply because Knights had captured one of the Rook and one of the Bishop bases, leaving a single Rook and Bishop base remaining. This in turn put the remaining opposing bases closer together, and generated a lot of base raids, causing bases to flash, thus attracting other players and generating quite a few interesting GV battles.
MH
If you read what you ignored an took out of context from my post, you would see how blatantly imbalanced it is.
This one-way conversation with you is mute/pointless unless you're willing to listen and accept it will (or, from our arguement, has to) change.
Good post but your wrong on one point, the walls of the valley are to steep to scale. There is no way to get a gv up there from the opposing base,,, I've tried!
Now if the other base could spawn up there, it would be great
I have been told it is possible but tricky, it was utilising the old "drive up steeper slopes backwards than is possible forwards" trick, and IDK if that is still possible after the many GV adjustments/revisions.
Edit: this issue has been known for as long as the map has been kept in rotation on the servers, it's anyone's guess over what comes first with it - its imbalances/issues being addressed or a successful and complete rotation in the LWMA.
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Good post but your wrong on one point, the walls of the valley are to steep to scale. There is no way to get a gv up there from the opposing base,,, I've tried!
Now if the other base could spawn up there, it would be great
I agree that one bad thing about Trinity is those steep-walled canyons. It should be possible to climb at some points. MH
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If you read what you ignored an took out of context from my post, you would see how blatantly imbalanced it is.
The only substantive portion of your post I ignored was the traditional toolshed-versus-furball theme (where you suggest that things which cause GVers to be "distracted" from the war, outside of Tank Town, are undesirable). This is useless to respond to, because each of us has our preferences; I am a furball person; you appear to be a toolshedder.
MH
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I would like to see a video on how to get down if you do not want to be up there. <snip>
You need to find a less-steep portion of the hill, and drive straight down. I've never been able to do it safely at the spawn point; you have to drive a ways along the canyon. Explore/practice offline.
MH
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This is one spawn that get's a disproportionate amount of attention and usage.
Why take away the one thing that made this spawn as popular as it is?
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This is one spawn that get's a disproportionate amount of attention and usage.
Why take away the one thing that made this spawn as popular as it is?
Because he is a "win the war" guy, and hasn't put adequate thought into the idea that others might have different preferences. Why they have to take those particular 2 bases, when they have 100 others to choose from, is beyond me...
MH
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What's really funny is that they never approach the base anyway.....they just sit outside.
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What's really funny is that they never approach the base anyway.....they just sit outside.
My impression is that normally the guys fighting near V28 are dedicated GVers, who like the local GV environment. If so, sitting outside the base would make sense, as they don't want to capture it, but just fight. In contrast, the “win the war” guys typically come all at once in a massive horde, take the base, and move on.
I think that the posters to this thread have several different agendas:
1) The OP may be an occasional GVer who really doesn’t like the clifftop spawn. He hasn’t played there enough yet to see that there are good aspects to the situation. He assumes that pretty much everyone else shares his view, which is not the case, as evidenced by the popularity of the site for GV battles.
2) We had a couple of comments from “win the war” guys, who want to eliminate the attractiveness of this site for GVers, so that they can sweep this portion of the map without complaints.
3) We had a couple of comments from some of the GVers who have played the V28 area a lot, and who enjoy the unusual tactical environment engendered by the clifftop spawn.
MH
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Look, I sympathize if you lost a Tiger on the cliff. However, it is my observation that the community gains more enjoyment than grief from this particular spawn, so I say leave it alone. I am not talking “giggles” here, but instead gameplay variety which is missing from the other Trinity canyon spawns.
Here is some additional perspective: You can easily avoid this in future by spawning your Tiger at the Vbase. Earning 25 GV perk points is trivial (you can do it with M3 base resupply, for example). Furthermore, the whole process of spawning is inherently risky. For example, I spawned a Panther into a healthy looking air base last weekend, and about 15 seconds later, the base changed to Rook and all the acks began shooting at me. And of course, the normal risk our (perked and unperked) GVs face is whether the spawn is camped or not.
MH
:bhead I think that you are confusing game play with A KNOWN BUG. I am sure there are some folks that would immensely enjoy unlimited bombs. What then, say it is inherently risky anytime that you spawn a GV, knowing bombers might get a bead on you?
I am not trying to blow this out of proportion (3 pages later, of the same answer on one side, "I like it....." and my arguement on the other side, "It is a known bug that randomly places opponents out of reach of defense, but still allows them to attack......").
Let me attempt to answer the inherent risk position. Those that are informed and capable have the option to avoid the spawn all together or seek "known" strategic cover or advantage points. Those that might have paid the same amount of $$ to play the game and discover they have been "scammed" (not by the developers or map makers), but by those who exploit a bug :old: (have done it myself, out of curiousity) to find there are being fired upon from a perch :neener: 3k feet above, are likely to feel the same as I do..... "fix it please"...... :pray
For a map that DOMINATES the WEEKLY map rotation, this is not gaining any favorable points in my book. I have played there recently and found the action is much more intense and favorable, when both sides are duking it out on somewhat "level" ground, as it was intended.
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Another point someone tried to make is that the high cliff spawn is the reason it is popular, I doubt that has anything to do with it and for me,, it is why I leave that spawn!
The reason it is popular is because it has a close proximity enemy spawns with some great cover,= fast action,,
it is also high enough in altitude that most players can't bomb it constantly or consistently,, it is also far enough away from air bases that it isn't always covered up with heavy fighters,( also because of it's alt.)
the only bad thing I see about it is one sided high wall spawn problem! If both sides could spawn up on top, it would be great, even if it was random!! :noid
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Another point someone tried to make is that the high cliff spawn is the reason it is popular, I doubt that has anything to do with it and for me,, it is why I leave that spawn!
The reason it is popular is because it has a close proximity enemy spawns with some great cover,= fast action,,
it is also high enough in altitude that most players can't bomb it constantly or consistently,, it is also far enough away from air bases that it isn't always covered up with heavy fighters,( also because of it's alt.)
the only bad thing I see about it is one sided high wall spawn problem! If both sides could spawn up on top, it would be great, even if it was random!! :noid
You have a plausible argument when you speculate that others share the above view. Your "if both sides could spawn on top" idea is also interesting. However, pending a change to allow both to spawn on the cliff, I would hate to see the spawn point changed so that nobody could spawn up there.
MH
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:bhead I think that you are confusing game play with A KNOWN BUG <snip>.
You think it’s a bug; I don’t. You hate it; I like it. This is called a difference of opinion.
<snip>"It is a known bug that randomly places opponents out of reach of defense, but still allows them to attack......").<snip>
They are not “out of reach”. A skilled player can easily completely clear the cliff edge using a Tiger or Panther. Furthermore, most players don’t appear to know how to position their GVs properly on the cliff edge, so in most cases, only the far side of the valley is vulnerable, and only if you are in the open (otherwise they can’t see you). Because of the above, I have never found the cliff spawns to be a major issue. You do have to watch your rear however. I worry about the intermittent attack aircraft 10 times more than I do about that cliff.
MH
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well since it's not a problem lets just have everyone spawn up there. Problem solved.
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well since it's not a problem lets just have everyone spawn up there. Problem solved.
I like how Toe thinks :D
You think it’s a bug; I don’t. You hate it; I like it. This is called a difference of opinion.
They are not “out of reach”. A skilled player can easily completely clear the cliff edge using a Tiger or Panther. Furthermore, most players don’t appear to know how to position their GVs properly on the cliff edge, so in most cases, only the far side of the valley is vulnerable, and only if you are in the open (otherwise they can’t see you). Because of the above, I have never found the cliff spawns to be a major issue. You do have to watch your rear however. I worry about the intermittent attack aircraft 10 times more than I do about that cliff.
MH
I did not say that I hate it. If you scroll way too many pages back you will see that I said that whether or not I find it amusing or not, is not the question (paraphrased). It IS a BUG (points at the forum we are discussing this in ^). You also ignored my comparison to help you clarify your position on bugs.
Unlimited BOMBS = BUG ~ RANDOM perch for your tank = BUG. The only thing that would convince me otherwise, would be the map creator's statement, that this WAS his intent all along.
Your OPINION about what a SKILLED player is capable of doing on the cliff's edge, has nothing to do with the inability of those in the valley to raise their turrets and fire on those on their perch.
"Sometimes your Louisville slugger..... Sometimes your the ball.... Sometimes your the windshield .... Sometimes your the BUG...."
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<snip>
Unlimited BOMBS = BUG ~ RANDOM perch for your tank = BUG. The only thing that would convince me otherwise, would be the map creator's statement, that this WAS his intent all along.
If you think about it, imbalance and asymmetry are everywhere in the game (plane types, numbers, base starting altitudes, plane E-states at the time of engagement, up-sun/down-sun, HTC flight model changes, etc.). So as I see it, the spawn random factors are generally in line with this. (BTW, I would personally prefer it if the player could choose one of several different spawn positions [at each spawn location] instead of it being random; this would eliminate being involuntarily being put on the cliff, among other things. I also proposed a game “wish” last month where the player could see where he/she was going to spawn before actually going through with it, which would also deal with your issue.)
However, currently, random positioning during spawn is clearly a deliberate design feature, whether we like it or not. Also, the fact that sometimes you get put out in the open where you get shot at and die, sometimes in trees, and sometimes behind a hill where you are safe, is a normally accepted part of GV spawning. The only difference here is that one of the random locations is up a cliff, giving the additional advantage of position to those who know how to use it, and giving the addtional disadvantage of it being difficult to get back down for those who haven't found the places in the cliff where one can "safely" go down. And as I said, you can avoid it by driving up from the vBase, once you have found out about the clifftop aspect.
MH
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None of those circumstances put anyone at such a disadvantage as I have described at length... so..... let's get back to a little less gamey :bolt: and more of a simulation of WW2 warfare please..... :pray
What a stretch...............
(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I5055769845041432&pid=1.5)
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Tanks randomly tumbling down a mountain is a bug,, end of story
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Tanks randomly tumbling down a mountain is a bug,, end of story
I have never once been placed on the slope; only on the plateau adjacent to it. To "tumble down" the slope, you have to foolishly attempt to drive down it at a point where it is too steep to do so.
MH
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None of those circumstances put anyone at such a disadvantage as I have described at length... <snip irrelevancies>
Actually, many of them are much worse, and I have already explained to you why the clifftop thing is relatively insignificant tactically. The only legit concern you have is the new player accidentally losing a perk tank (which should only occur once if they are sober...).
MH
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I think that the posters to this thread have several different agendas:
1) The OP may be an occasional GVer who really doesn’t like the clifftop spawn. He hasn’t played there enough yet to see that there are good aspects to the situation. He assumes that pretty much everyone else shares his view, which is not the case, as evidenced by the popularity of the site for GV battles.
No, not really. I've played AH since beta, and I've played it's previous incarnations (Warbirds and Confirmed Kill) from their beginning (and Air Warrior, which also had tanks, from long before that). I play GV's almost exclusively (over 30K GV perks). I don't like the hilltop spawn because it's stupid and unfair, not because I don't know how to exploit it. I know how to shoot down from up there and choose not to. I know how to drive down to the valley without tumbling, even on the steepest slope (go over perpendicularly and extremely slowly and then hold down the S key all the way down- you'll reach speeds of 300 mph). It is true I should not have claimed everyone hates it; but going by comments on vox and text a lot do complain. Perhaps the people who like it are not as vocal when I'm playing there.
This spawn is popular because it is a very good GV spawn point, not because of the chance of spawning on the cliff top. The spawns are far enough apart, and blocked by a ridge, so the two can't spawn camp each other right from the spawn (except from the cliff top position). They are close enough, however, for short drives to the action. The topology is complex enough for good GV fighting including corners and depressions/ridges to take up hull down positions. Also, the valley is wide enough and the terrain varied enough that the enemy can sometimes run around the flank and attack from the rear.
The bottom line is, of course, that people have complained about this for almost 4 years and if nothing has been done yet, it isn't likely to be. (Although I don't think that nothing has been done: the code never spawns you on the cliff face, only at the top or bottom. That may have been HTCs solution implemented long ago.)
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No, not really. I've played AH since beta, and I've played it's previous incarnations (Warbirds and Confirmed Kill) from their beginning (and Air Warrior, which also had tanks, from long before that). I play GV's almost exclusively (over 30K GV perks). I don't like the hilltop spawn because it's stupid and unfair, not because I don't know how to exploit it. I know how to shoot down from up there and choose not to. I know how to drive down to the valley without tumbling, even on the steepest slope (go over perpendicularly and extremely slowly and then hold down the S key all the way down- you'll reach speeds of 300 mph). It is true I should not have claimed everyone hates it; but going by comments on vox and text a lot do complain. Perhaps the people who like it are not as vocal when I'm playing there.
This spawn is popular because it is a very good GV spawn point, not because of the chance of spawning on the cliff top. The spawns are far enough apart, and blocked by a ridge, so the two can't spawn camp each other right from the spawn (except from the cliff top position). They are close enough, however, for short drives to the action. The topology is complex enough for good GV fighting including corners and depressions/ridges to take up hull down positions. Also, the valley is wide enough and the terrain varied enough that the enemy can sometimes run around the flank and attack from the rear.
The bottom line is, of course, that people have complained about this for almost 4 years and if nothing has been done yet, it isn't likely to be. (Although I don't think that nothing has been done: the code never spawns you on the cliff face, only at the top or bottom. That may have been HTCs solution implemented long ago.)
I stand corrected on your history and motivations. Your background is similar to mine, except that I only briefly tried Warbirds, and started out with Air Warrior when it was Mac and Amiga only.
I also think you are correct in surmising that the people who dislike the clifftop spawn are more vocal - I know I've never said anything about it (except here). I still maintain that the clifftop spawn is tactically insignificant, for reasons I gave earlier. Most people don't want to / know how to use it effectively, and when they get annoying, somone tilts up a Panther or Tiger and picks them off.
MH