Trinity V28 N Spawn

[icepac]

What's really funny is that they never approach the base anyway.....they just sit outside.

[TDeacon]

What's really funny is that they never approach the base anyway.....they just sit outside.

My impression is that normally the guys fighting near V28 are dedicated GVers, who like the local GV environment.  If so, sitting outside the base would make sense, as they don't want to capture it, but just fight.  In contrast, the “win the war” guys typically come all at once in a massive horde, take the base, and move on. 

I think that the posters to this thread have several different agendas:
1)  The OP may be an occasional GVer who really doesn’t like the clifftop spawn.  He hasn’t played there enough yet to see that there are good aspects to the situation.  He assumes that pretty much everyone else shares his view, which is not the case, as evidenced by the popularity of the site for GV battles. 
2)   We had a couple of comments from “win the war” guys, who want to eliminate the attractiveness of this site for GVers, so that they can sweep this portion of the map without complaints. 
3)  We had a couple of comments from some of the GVers who have played the V28 area a lot, and who enjoy the unusual tactical environment engendered by the clifftop spawn. 

MH

[Chilli]

Look, I sympathize if you lost a Tiger on the cliff.  However, it is my observation that the community gains more enjoyment than grief from this particular spawn, so I say leave it alone.  I am not talking “giggles” here, but instead gameplay variety which is missing from the other Trinity canyon spawns. 

Here is some additional perspective:  You can easily avoid this in future by spawning your Tiger at the Vbase.  Earning 25 GV perk points is trivial (you can do it with M3 base resupply, for example).  Furthermore, the whole process of spawning is inherently risky.  For example, I spawned a Panther into a healthy looking air base last weekend, and about 15 seconds later, the base changed to Rook and all the acks began shooting at me.  And of course, the normal risk our (perked and unperked) GVs face is whether the spawn is camped or not. 

MH

   I think that you are confusing game play with A KNOWN BUG.  I am sure there are some folks that would immensely enjoy unlimited bombs.  What then, say it is inherently risky anytime that you spawn a GV, knowing bombers might get a bead on you?

I am not trying to blow this out of proportion (3 pages later, of the same answer on one side, "I like it....." and my arguement on the other side, "It is a known bug that randomly places opponents out of reach of defense, but still allows them to attack......"). 

Let me attempt to answer the inherent risk position.  Those that are informed and capable have the option to avoid the spawn all together or seek "known" strategic cover or advantage points.  Those that might have paid the same amount of $$ to play the game and discover they have been "scammed" (not by the developers or map makers), but by those who exploit a bug  (have done it myself, out of curiousity) to find there are being fired upon from a perch  3k feet above, are likely to feel the same as I do..... "fix it please"...... 

For a map that DOMINATES the WEEKLY map rotation, this is not gaining any favorable points in my book.  I have played there recently and found the action is much more intense and favorable, when both sides are duking it out on somewhat "level" ground, as it was intended.

[WWhiskey]

Another point someone tried to make is that the high cliff spawn is the reason it is popular,  I doubt that has anything to do with it and for me,, it is why I leave that spawn!
The reason it is popular is because it has a close proximity enemy spawns with some great cover,=  fast action,,
 it is also high enough in altitude that most players can't bomb it constantly or consistently,, it is also far enough away from air bases that it isn't always covered up with heavy fighters,( also because of it's alt.)
 the only bad thing I see about it is  one sided high wall spawn problem!  If both sides could spawn up on top, it would be great, even if it was random!!

[TDeacon]

Another point someone tried to make is that the high cliff spawn is the reason it is popular,  I doubt that has anything to do with it and for me,, it is why I leave that spawn!
The reason it is popular is because it has a close proximity enemy spawns with some great cover,=  fast action,,
 it is also high enough in altitude that most players can't bomb it constantly or consistently,, it is also far enough away from air bases that it isn't always covered up with heavy fighters,( also because of it's alt.)
 the only bad thing I see about it is  one sided high wall spawn problem!  If both sides could spawn up on top, it would be great, even if it was random!!

You have a plausible argument when you speculate that others share the above view.  Your "if both sides could spawn on top" idea is also interesting.  However, pending a change to allow both to spawn on the cliff, I would hate to see the spawn point changed so that nobody could spawn up there.  
MH

[TDeacon]

 I think that you are confusing game play with A KNOWN BUG <snip>.

You think it’s a bug; I don’t.  You hate it; I like it.  This is called a difference of opinion.  

<snip>"It is a known bug that randomly places opponents out of reach of defense, but still allows them to attack......").<snip>

They are not “out of reach”.  A skilled player can easily completely clear the cliff edge using a Tiger or Panther.  Furthermore, most players don’t appear to know how to position their GVs properly on the cliff edge, so in most cases, only the far side of the valley is vulnerable, and only if you are in the open (otherwise they can’t see you).  Because of the above, I have never found the cliff spawns to be a major issue.  You do have to watch your rear however.  I worry about the intermittent attack aircraft 10 times more than I do about that cliff. 

MH

[ToeTag]

well since it's not a problem lets just have everyone spawn up there.  Problem solved.

[Chilli]

well since it's not a problem lets just have everyone spawn up there.  Problem solved.

I like how Toe thinks 

You think it’s a bug; I don’t.  You hate it; I like it.  This is called a difference of opinion. 

They are not “out of reach”.  A skilled player can easily completely clear the cliff edge using a Tiger or Panther.  Furthermore, most players don’t appear to know how to position their GVs properly on the cliff edge, so in most cases, only the far side of the valley is vulnerable, and only if you are in the open (otherwise they can’t see you).  Because of the above, I have never found the cliff spawns to be a major issue.  You do have to watch your rear however.  I worry about the intermittent attack aircraft 10 times more than I do about that cliff. 

MH

I did not say that I hate it.  If you scroll way too many pages back you will see that I said that whether or not I find it amusing or not, is not the question (paraphrased).  It IS a BUG (points at the forum we are discussing this in ^).   You also ignored my comparison to help you clarify your position on bugs. 

Unlimited BOMBS = BUG   ~  RANDOM perch for your tank = BUG.  The only thing that would convince me otherwise, would be the map creator's statement, that this WAS his intent all along.

Your OPINION about what a SKILLED player is capable of doing on the cliff's edge, has nothing to do with the inability of those in the valley to raise their turrets and fire on those on their perch.

 "Sometimes your Louisville slugger..... Sometimes your the ball....  Sometimes your the windshield .... Sometimes your the BUG...."

[TDeacon]

<snip>
Unlimited BOMBS = BUG   ~  RANDOM perch for your tank = BUG.  The only thing that would convince me otherwise, would be the map creator's statement, that this WAS his intent all along.

If you think about it, imbalance and asymmetry are everywhere in the game (plane types, numbers, base starting altitudes, plane E-states at the time of engagement, up-sun/down-sun, HTC flight model changes, etc.).  So as I see it, the spawn random factors are generally in line with this.  (BTW, I would personally prefer it if the player could choose one of several different spawn positions [at each spawn location] instead of it being random; this would eliminate being involuntarily being put on the cliff, among other things.  I also proposed a game “wish” last month where the player could see where he/she was going to spawn before actually going through with it, which would also deal with your issue.)

However, currently, random positioning during spawn is clearly a deliberate design feature, whether we like it or not.  Also, the fact that sometimes you get put out in the open where you get shot at and die, sometimes in trees, and sometimes behind a hill where you are safe, is a normally accepted part of GV spawning.  The only difference here is that one of the random locations is up a cliff, giving the additional advantage of position to those who know how to use it, and giving the addtional disadvantage of it being difficult to get back down for those who haven't found the places in the cliff where one can "safely" go down.  And as I said, you can avoid it by driving up from the vBase, once you have found out about the clifftop aspect.  

MH

[Chilli]

None of those circumstances put anyone at such a disadvantage as I have described at length...  so..... let's get back to a little less gamey  and more of a simulation of WW2 warfare please.....


What a stretch...............

[WWhiskey]

Tanks randomly tumbling down a mountain is a bug,,  end of story

[TDeacon]

Tanks randomly tumbling down a mountain is a bug,,  end of story

I have never once been placed on the slope; only on the plateau adjacent to it.  To "tumble down" the slope, you have to foolishly attempt to drive down it at a point where it is too steep to do so. 

MH

[TDeacon]

None of those circumstances put anyone at such a disadvantage as I have described at length...  <snip irrelevancies>

Actually, many of them are much worse, and I have already explained to you why the clifftop thing is relatively insignificant tactically.  The only legit concern you have is the new player accidentally losing a perk tank (which should only occur once if they are sober...).  

MH

[715]

I think that the posters to this thread have several different agendas:
1)  The OP may be an occasional GVer who really doesn’t like the clifftop spawn.  He hasn’t played there enough yet to see that there are good aspects to the situation.  He assumes that pretty much everyone else shares his view, which is not the case, as evidenced by the popularity of the site for GV battles.

No, not really.  I've played AH since beta, and I've played it's previous incarnations (Warbirds and Confirmed Kill) from their beginning (and Air Warrior, which also had tanks, from long before that).  I play GV's almost exclusively (over 30K GV perks).  I don't like the hilltop spawn because it's stupid and unfair, not because I don't know how to exploit it.  I know how to shoot down from up there and choose not to.  I know how to drive down to the valley without tumbling, even on the steepest slope (go over perpendicularly and extremely slowly and then hold down the S key all the way down- you'll reach speeds of 300 mph).  It is true I should not have claimed everyone hates it; but going by comments on vox and text a lot do complain.  Perhaps the people who like it are not as vocal when I'm playing there.

This spawn is popular because it is a very good GV spawn point, not because of the chance of spawning on the cliff top.  The spawns are far enough apart, and blocked by a ridge, so the two can't spawn camp each other right from the spawn (except from the cliff top position). They are close enough, however, for short drives to the action.  The topology is complex enough for good GV fighting including corners and depressions/ridges to take up hull down positions.  Also, the valley is wide enough and the terrain varied enough that the enemy can sometimes run around the flank and attack from the rear. 

The bottom line is, of course, that people have complained about this for almost 4 years and if nothing has been done yet, it isn't likely to be.  (Although I don't think that nothing has been done: the code never spawns you on the cliff face, only at the top or bottom.  That may have been HTCs solution implemented long ago.)

[TDeacon]

No, not really.  I've played AH since beta, and I've played it's previous incarnations (Warbirds and Confirmed Kill) from their beginning (and Air Warrior, which also had tanks, from long before that).  I play GV's almost exclusively (over 30K GV perks).  I don't like the hilltop spawn because it's stupid and unfair, not because I don't know how to exploit it.  I know how to shoot down from up there and choose not to.  I know how to drive down to the valley without tumbling, even on the steepest slope (go over perpendicularly and extremely slowly and then hold down the S key all the way down- you'll reach speeds of 300 mph).  It is true I should not have claimed everyone hates it; but going by comments on vox and text a lot do complain.  Perhaps the people who like it are not as vocal when I'm playing there.

This spawn is popular because it is a very good GV spawn point, not because of the chance of spawning on the cliff top.  The spawns are far enough apart, and blocked by a ridge, so the two can't spawn camp each other right from the spawn (except from the cliff top position). They are close enough, however, for short drives to the action.  The topology is complex enough for good GV fighting including corners and depressions/ridges to take up hull down positions.  Also, the valley is wide enough and the terrain varied enough that the enemy can sometimes run around the flank and attack from the rear. 

The bottom line is, of course, that people have complained about this for almost 4 years and if nothing has been done yet, it isn't likely to be.  (Although I don't think that nothing has been done: the code never spawns you on the cliff face, only at the top or bottom.  That may have been HTCs solution implemented long ago.)

I stand corrected on your history and motivations.  Your background is similar to mine, except that I only briefly tried Warbirds, and started out with Air Warrior when it was Mac and Amiga only. 

I also think you are correct in surmising that the people who dislike the clifftop spawn are more vocal - I know I've never said anything about it (except here).  I still maintain that the clifftop spawn is tactically insignificant, for reasons I gave earlier.  Most people don't want to / know how to use it effectively, and when they get annoying, somone tilts up a Panther or Tiger and picks them off. 

MH