Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tupac on July 18, 2012, 06:21:17 PM
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So as everyone is most certainly aware, the Me410 has been released and there have already been complaints as to its performance and effectiveness. It's definitely a unique airplane, and I don't think many knew what to expect. It has it's strengths and weaknesses, however I don't believe it's truly as bad as everyone seems to think.
First off, it's a heavy airplane. 25% fuel and the Mk103s yields more than 22,000 pounds. It has relatively small wings for it's size, resulting in higher wingloading and therefore a higher cornering speed. Turning is most certainly not one of it's strengths, however it has a big rudder and sharp nose - very good for a quick snapshot. You have the firepower to make snapshots count, you can even get almost sloppy with your shooting as you have so much ammo - I've gotten a couple kills from 1000 out just shooting a 3 second burst. It's speed is definitely not bad for a plane of it's size, it will outpace the 110 (albeit barely) and doesn't seem to be a sluggish airplane, although it wallows in turns. I think one of the biggest strengths of the 410 is its wonderful visibility, IMO one of the most important and overlooked characteristics of an airplane. With good SA it's pretty easy to force an overshoot, and then snap around and blast the offending party.
However, perhaps the best thing thing about the 410 is the versatility of the airplane. If you show up to a field in a P51 when the town needs to be going down, you can empty your arsenal into the town and be out of ammo and not accomplished much. With the 410, if you arrive and the town needs to go down you have the ability make it happen quick. CV down and spawning PT boats? You can deal with that. GVs? Attack from the rear if you have the Mk103s and you will make short work of all of the non perked tanks. (and some of the smaller perked ones, like the M4 76) It seems to take fire about as well as a 110, maybe even a little bit better. With the BK5 mounted it will make even shorter work of GVs, although I prefer the Mk103.
I suppose after singing it praise, I should probably talk about some of its drawbacks. The roll performance is below average, it feels a lot like an A20 in this respect. While the Me410 is a big airplane, it feels like an even bigger airplane when you're flying it. When you are light, it's turn radius is quite large. When heavy, the turn radius is the size of West Texas. Climb performance is marginal, trying to go vertical is a moot point unless it is against something woefully underpowered, or you have a significantly higher amount of energy. This airplane is not suited to 1v1s unless the other pilot is in something very slow, however in a group of airplanes it can be quite deadly. It's a big target, and anyone with a few brain cells should be able to hit one. The rear guns are almost useless, however I managed to get a kill on an LA that parked 600 off my 6 with them. Perhaps just dumb luck. It dives like a P38, familiarize yourself with the K button. It starts shedding parts around 520mph, compression starts around 410ish.
I heard a figure of speech about a week ago that has stuck with me, and seems to describe the ME410 quite well "Jack of all trades, master of none" It's a good airplane, I enjoy it. Predictable handling and fun to fly. I suspect there will be a few who will find it suits their style and I think we will see a group of dedicated ME410 pilots. Anyways, those are my thoughts. Feel free to expand and add your own experiences. I do like writing, although I have never done anything like this on the boards before. Let me know if you liked the read, I'd like to do these reviews on other planes.
All the best,
Tupac
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I like you
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Thanks for a great review. It pretty well sums up the experiences I had with it last night. The only thing I'd slightly differ with you is that I did seem to have some limited success with it in the vertical, but once I started to approach fairly low speeds, forget it. At that point, going vertical in a 410 is like going vertical in a coffin. Both end up in a hole in the ground.
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You kill it just like a 110....shoot the wing!
999000 <S>
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:salute Tupac, very good review, much appreciated, please do more!
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I agree. I was killed very easily on my first 4 sorties in 1v1 with lighter turn fighter...IMO with full guns & fuel it turns much worse than a Hvy 110 w/o bombs. Then on to attack role...I was slaughtered down in that spawn canyon last night with seemingly little effort. Yes there is great front view, but IMO at a cost...anyone with a stray 50/303 round with all that glass & you're pilot wounded. My first bomber approach killed me easily from low six off of b-24s. It got better as I felt a little more accustomed to the feel which is as stated heavy in the turns. I have not flown it today yet & intend to try it a bit lighter to see if that helps much. It will surely take practice to get a feel for where this ac fits in my arsenal. Thanks for your thoughtful input & lack of anecdotal know-it-all-itis. :aok :salute :airplane:
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I think it needs to be able to fight to be a 'Jack of all trades'. :p
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Treat it like an even less maneuverable 190A8. Come in ~5K above the fight, and work your way down. Expect to get only one chance at a firing solution, because once an opponent realizes that he's your target, there's little you can do to get a second shot. The 2x MK103s are extremely effective and offers a much higher chance of hitting and killing your target than a 190A8 would. Amazing ballistics means you can and will hit targets 600 yards away reliably. Very stable gun platform as well.
It's no dog fighter, but it will tear apart everything in its path if given even one chance.
And naturally, bombers get turned into Swiss cheese. Just don't be hasty and attack from dead six. People have been noting that it's relatively fragile, although I haven't had any problems with it. Never caught on fire, never ripped off my wings. When I died, it was because I got caught and died after multiple hits from all calibre (.50s, Hispano, and taters). I took it down in a dive once and wasn't paying attention, the moment I heard creaking, I looked at the speedometer and was going 500mph, popped the dive brakes and found that I lost elevator response, trimmed it up and the plane pulled itself out of the dive, no wings popping off. I also managed to get into a flat spin, full flaps - rudder right - full elevator up - and the plane snap rolled into a flat spin. Cutting the engine and opposite rudder straightened it out after dropping about 1000ft.
All in all, a very wonderful plane to fly (for me at least), an excellent BnZ plane.
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So as everyone is most certainly aware, the Me410 has been released and there have already been complaints as to its performance and effectiveness. It's definitely a unique airplane, and I don't think many knew what to expect. It has it's strengths and weaknesses, however I don't believe it's truly as bad as everyone seems to think.
Oh reaaaaaLY
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For what its worth, other than climbing a bit worse than I expected, it is pretty much right where I thought it would be. It matches the performance posted by wmaker in his 110 vs 410 vs Mossie VI through.
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My review of the 410? It's made from rejected a6m materials. The Spad has better survivability. I haven't landed one yet.
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My review of the 410? It's made from rejected a6m materials. The Spad has better survivability. I haven't landed one yet.
Maybe it's just me but everyone I've talked to or seen says it's worse than a Zeke. I took multiple hits from a set of B26s and B24s, came out with a missing flap or aileron for each set. I got jumped by an F4U, took multiple hits as well before finally going down. Never caught on fire either. It seems as tough as a 110. It's no Il2 but I don't think it's a Zeke either.
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Good all round review, Tupac :aok
Some stuff i noticed:
-The turn rate is between the 190F and the 262. Take the consequences.
-The stall speed with flaps is fairly low tho.
-The snaprolls are violent and rather unpredictable for my 109-brain. But if you can master them, you can be a killer, because...
-...this plane burns E like nothing else, with the firepower and the giant rudder, if you can force an overshoot, its game over for the victim.
Ugly, inpotent, disappointing... this is my new fav ride, just give it a beautiful hungarian camo :lol
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Not bad to fly. Going to take time to get used to but its fun to fly around.
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Do the flaps actually work? Guys online were saying today they were testing it but couldn't feel any difference.
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:aok :aok :aok Do moar!!! :cheers:
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Do the flaps actually work? Guys online were saying today they were testing it but couldn't feel any difference.
I'd have to say yes,though they arent as good as the fowlers on the 38 they do seem to have a noticable effect.
Once you get past 2 notches the drag builds quickly but they definitely hold off the buffet in a stall. If you're asking do they help with turnrate,well thats debatable, I havent had enough time in it for a full evaluation.
:salute
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the reason they don't feel it is because they are deploying the flaps in the vert or in a climb to get more nose up - but - the speed is droping so fast that by the time the flaps are in effect, you are already falling out of the sky. I only have 2 days in it (a bit of time in the offline doing acrobatics) but it is not a real dogfighter. But no mystery here.
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410 is a big target that is destroyed easily. it can bnz but to get up to a perch with it climbing slower than a p47 takes time. it gets heavy on the controls at high speed and thus can not attack in a max speed dive nd has to deploy speed brakes and chop throttle... which leaves it without an alt advantage and easy kill for other fighters in a big fight.
it has a fun buff killing 50mm gun that can be fired effectively from 1.5k away from bombers but for whatever reason be it lag or what not when you are 1.5k back from a bomber they will be peppering your plane with mg fire till you die or take damage. however this gun changes the fuselage shape and probably adds more drag and weighs a lot.
mk103 30mm is amazing and more powerful than low velocity mk108 30mm. this option also weighs a ton.
judging by the amount of deaths this plane has accumulated it may be one of the worst planes in the game. it has a turn rate/radius on par with a b25 and if you have that in somthing trying to pose as a fighter... its not going to do well.
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Only surprise I have is the damage model. Boy is it fragile. But as for the airplane itself? Theres a reason history remembers it as a failed design.
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:noid :noid :huh :huh :lol :lol I hoed 4 people and blew them out of the sky! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
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Theres a reason history remembers it as a failed design.
Yup.
- oldman
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Yup.
- oldman
Only surprise I have is the damage model. Boy is it fragile. But as for the airplane itself? Theres a reason history remembers it as a failed design.
You guys are confusing the Me 410 with the 210
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You guys are confusing the Me 410 with the 210
410 was not vastly better than the 210, it just didn't kill its own crews like the 210.
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410 was not vastly better than the 210, it just didn't kill its own crews like the 210.
Wasn't claiming it was vastly better, just saying the 210 was considered the failure, not the 410, historically.
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410 was not vastly better than the 210, it just didn't kill its own crews like the 210.
Hmm...I see a rather significant difference between being dead or alive. I might even call it "vastly better" being alive.
....but, that's just me.
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Interesting comments all, from the preprespective of a bomber pilot we watched with anticipation last night as a 410 laboriously made its way toward a formation of us, 4 flights of B-17's, at 28K en route to a strat run, speculating as we tracked him during his climb as to various defensive tactics we might employ. As he neared possible firing range (appx) 2.0 he suddenly winged over and dropped away, I can only speculate he was out of gas, and most likely very disappointed at having nearly closed and having to break away w/out getting a shot off. We will have to wait till another time it looks like to see how the 410 will do against a tight formation of heavy bombers, but probably not for long. Glad its here, should be an intresting addition to the game.
OldBull
XO Avengers
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Hmm...I see a rather significant difference between being dead or alive. I might even call it "vastly better" being alive.
....but, that's just me.
I meant outside of that change its performance wasn't a big improvement. :p
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Me210 had DB601's. The early models made 1100-1200 hp. The Me410 had DB603's with nearly 1800 hp.
It was about 40mph slower and climbed worse but this lack of horsepower also was a major killer at slow speeds -- considering the 210 had no leading edge slots.
So, yes. It's a massive difference between the 210 and 410.
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Interesting comments all, from the preprespective of a bomber pilot we watched with anticipation last night as a 410 laboriously made its way toward a formation of us, 4 flights of B-17's, at 28K en route to a strat run, speculating as we tracked him during his climb as to various defensive tactics we might employ. As he neared possible firing range (appx) 2.0 he suddenly winged over and dropped away, I can only speculate he was out of gas, and most likely very disappointed at having nearly closed and having to break away w/out getting a shot off. We will have to wait till another time it looks like to see how the 410 will do against a tight formation of heavy bombers, but probably not for long. Glad its here, should be an intresting addition to the game.
OldBull
XO Avengers
Maybe it started raining and water was coming into the basement.
Maybe he got a call from his Mom asking if he remembered to take out the trash and feed the dog.
More than likely he fell asleep and QWERTY'd his forehead as he drooled into the keyboad and shorted the auto pilot. :neener:
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Me210 had DB601's. The early models made 1100-1200 hp. The Me410 had DB603's with nearly 1800 hp.
It was about 40mph slower and climbed worse but this lack of horsepower also was a major killer at slow speeds -- considering the 210 had no leading edge slots.
So, yes. It's a massive difference between the 210 and 410.
It made about as much difference as the P40 with the Merlin did to its' performance.
Very little. The 410 was pulled from Bomber interception. The 110 wasn't.
The aerodynamic design has a great influence on performance.
It reminds me of the westland whirlwind which the RAF abandoned altogether.
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Wasn't claiming it was vastly better, just saying the 210 was considered the failure, not the 410, historically.
IDK, I got half a dozen squadies who this week discovered if you pull back too hard when going too fast in the 410, the wings don't merely fold upon the aircraft but cause an imediate implosion (tower).
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IDK, I got half a dozen squadies who this week discovered if you pull back too hard when going too fast in the 410, the wings don't merely fold upon the aircraft but cause an imediate implosion (tower).
"HISTORICALLY"
Historically, as in history stuff, the 210 was considered a failure as an aircraft. Historically, as in old stuff, the 410 was considered an improvement, and even loved by it's aircrews.
Which I was simply replying to this: Only surprise I have is the damage model. Boy is it fragile. But as for the airplane itself? Theres a reason history remembers it as a failed design.
History as far as I have read, does not consider the 410 a failed design, that would be the 210 he is thinking of.
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"HISTORICALLY"
Historically, as in history stuff, the 210 was considered a failure as an aircraft. Historically, as in old stuff, the 410 was considered an improvement, and even loved by it's aircrews.
Which I was simply replying to this:
History as far as I have read, does not consider the 410 a failed design, that would be the 210 he is thinking of.
Being manufactured as a bomber Interceptor (which they greatly needed) and pulled from OPS...is a failure.
It was relegated to low level attack. When enemy fighters were around it was relegated to the air strip.
It simply could not defend itself. The LW trying to make it a jack of all trades was responsible for its' failure.
At least the IL2 could maneuver and bring guns to bear....the 410 couldn't unless it was a stationary target.
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It made about as much difference as the P40 with the Merlin did to its' performance.
Very little. The 410 was pulled from Bomber interception. The 110 wasn't.
The aerodynamic design has a great influence on performance.
It reminds me of the westland whirlwind which the RAF abandoned altogether.
You're wrong there. All of the political squabbling about the Me210 was rectified in the 410, and MOST of it was rectified with the nearly doubling of the available horsepower. You put WAY too much emphasis on the fact that 110s were still flying -- because they were in the same boat. The issues surrounding the 410 were far more political in nature. It was decimated by american escort fighters, yes... But show me one German fighter that wasn't decimated with 50,000-to-1 odds in late 1944?
P.S. Just for those not listening... The 210 and the 410 were worlds apart in terms of performance, manueverability, stability, and safety. See my above comment. 40mph difference between the two.