Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on August 03, 2012, 04:16:39 PM
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Can someone translate this for me,
Increased amount of damage done by BK37 cannons on the Ju 87G. Armor penetration capability is unchanged.
Its a pure tank hunter using armor piercing ammo. So how can you increase the amount of damage it does without changing its armor penetrating capability?
What else does it need to damage? And what else does it need more damage capability for?
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It does more damage to the soft, damage hit point sponge inside the armor of the tank.
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It does more damage to the soft, damage hit point sponge inside the armor of the tank.
Thanks Karnak. So your saying it was penetrating before but simply not doing enough damage when it did penetrate?
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Exactly. All rounds fired in the game have a set damage value. A 20mm cannon is about 1, a .50 cal is about 0.3.
Tank AP rounds are generally up in the high double digits, IIRC, though it varries between which gun fired which round. HE rounds from a tank are in the low hundreds usually (again, IIRC).
Basically, what they mean is that the damage value of the BK 37 wasn't high enough to accurately represent the gun's effectiveness in real life.
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All rounds fired in the game have a set damage value.
This is only true when hitting structures. When hitting units there are many variables that affect how much damage is done.
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I don't think thats entirely true.
It seems that the damage value given is a baseline damage value. As in, it will never do less damage than X at Y range.
However, that can decrease depending on a number of circumstances, and that components of the tank (say, engine for example) can have catastrophic failures that result in the destruction of the tank.
You can two-shot a Panzer with a 37mm, while sometimes you need 3 75mm rounds. Does that mean the 37mm does more damage than the 75mm under the best of conditions? No, it just means that the 37mm rounds happened to hit a location on the tank where the damage done would be particularly effective.
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When shooting airplanes the kinetic energy of the round, derived from its mass and velocity, affects how much damage it does. This has more effect on non-explosive rounds like the .303 and .50 of course, but all rounds have some kinetic elements to their damage.
I imagine the same is true for AP rounds and the more energy that they carry through the armor the more damage they do to the squishy center.
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I wonder, is the aircraft-mounted autocannons' damage values given on the AH round comparison chart for the HE, or AP rounds, or is it the average of the two?
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I wonder, is the aircraft-mounted autocannons' damage values given on the AH round comparison chart for the HE, or AP rounds, or is it the average of the two?
Aircraft in AH don't have AP rounds unless they are anti-armor aircraft. So far as I know only the Il-2, Hurricane Mk IId and Ju87G-2 have AP rounds. Other aircraft have either HE or a hybrid of HE, HEI, tracer and Minengeschoß depending on their historical belts.
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As I've always heard it, 20mm and 30mm cannons have a mix of chemical energy rounds (HE) and kenitic rounds (AP). .50cal and smaller have only kenetic energy rounds.
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As I've always heard it, 20mm and 30mm cannons have a mix of chemical energy rounds (HE) and kenitic rounds (AP). .50cal and smaller have only kenetic energy rounds.
All rounds are averaged.
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I killed a tiffy from 400 in dogfight (he must have been pissed) with the Stuka 37mm. Later I shot a p40 (friendly) from 800 and I didn't even take dmg but I heard the "you took a whack" sound. It must really lose al
lot of punch at range I was expecting to explode for my act.
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I noticed one thing now. I hit a Few Panzers, didnt cause smoke or anything, but ended up getting the kill when a A-20 bombed them.
Strange. They showed no signs of damage after I shot them with the 87G.
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Imagine how pissed you would be if he did not die with 2*37mm high velocity shells in him :cool:
I killed a tiffy from 400 in dogfight (he must have been pissed) with the Stuka 37mm. Later I shot a p40 (friendly) from 800 and I didn't even take dmg but I heard the "you took a whack" sound. It must really lose al
lot of punch at range I was expecting to explode for my act.
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Well after watching all its rounds bounce off a Panther yesterday I bailed, grabbed an IL2, and killed the Panther along with an Ostie and two Panzers. I think my 87G trial is at an end. The Hurri-D is more fun to fly and just as capable.
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first shots at 300, second shots at 150 - 4 total bk rounds, all hits on a Wirble. . .nothing.
srsly?
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Yep I noticed too it takes many shots, even at perfect angles and point of impact, to kill a vehicle. Those gun cameras of 87s posted on youtube.com sure make them look more potent.
Hmmmm.....
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Yep I noticed too it takes many shots, even at perfect angles and point of impact, to kill a vehicle. Those gun cameras of 87s posted on youtube.com sure make them look more potent.
Hmmmm.....
Even worse this plane is terrible at recovering energy in order to come in for another pass. Its has very little edge in climb to the IL2 to begin with, which isnt even noticeable, but the IL2 then retains its energy and lets you regain Alt for a 2nd high angle pass. The Hurri-D is another one very good at this. Both roll better then the 87G too. Both are far tougher. There are some players making kills in the 87G but I'd bet if they were spending equal time in the Hurri-D they'd be doing even better. The Hurri is far faster, climbs far better, rolls and retains much better, turns better. And Im not even convinced the Bk 3,7s are any better. At least as modeled
And forgetabout even comparing the 87G to the IL2. The NS-37s are still without peer. Well at least I like the clouds and new sounds.
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I had no trouble killing a t 34 with it,, fired two times, four round total testing the guns then fired one time, two rounds into the engine deck at a 45 degree angle and poof, it was gone!
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I had no trouble killing a t 34 with it,, fired two times, four round total testing the guns then fired one time, two rounds into the engine deck at a 45 degree angle and poof, it was gone!
Stats show you killing ONE M4 in the 87G Whiskey.
Ive killed several T-34s with it. Never with a 2 shot volley, and now dont find it worth the time.
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Stats show you killing ONE M4 in the 87G Whiskey.
Ive killed several T-34s with it. Never with a 2 shot volley, and now dont find it worth the time.
Yep. I remembered wrong. It was an m-4. But with just one round out of each gun
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Yep. I remembered wrong. It was an m-4. But with just one round out of each gun
More data points would be useful for a lucid benchmark.
If anyone has killed 50+ tanks in the 87 this tour I'd like get his\her feedback. Pros\Cons. Preferred method of attack. Convergence. etc. etc. etc.
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Firstly, no one has 50+, Raphael and Cannuk are both tied at 20 kills each, and 5 others are 10+, with me at 16. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=0&selectTour=LWTour151&pindex=124
So here is what I think:
1)If you want to be effective, fly an IL2. It has guns that are comparable or better. More rounds, has rockets and bombs, is tougher, is faster.
2) If they have a wirble, you have to stay outside what is icon range for you (they see you though) and dodge their bullets. If they have a wirble, you need to time your attack for when they are actively shooting at someone else. You are wirble food.
3) First round (one from each, they fire at the same time) is at d300 after which you decide if it needs 2 more at d100.
and this is where I think the BK 5 needs to really show its strength - if I fire off 2 rounds with hits into the track from a shallow 10/20 degree angle at d300 - It should kill the tank (barring tigers), the second set, at d100ish should be a kill on any hit barring the front for some tanks. As it stands, I have put 3 sets/6 rounds smack into a wirble without a kill now several times - first set smoked him, second set tracked him, thrid set got hits and no kill and then a bomb from an A20 killed him and I got an assist. . . and that happening once in awhile is ok. . .but it consistently happens is laughable.
Personally speaking, the BK needs a big damage boost - you get 12 rounds of rock and roll, the round should be a one set kill on any GV inside 300.
But I think the 87G2 is sexy as hell and I love flying it. . . but yah. . . the gun simply does not do enough.
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I have only used it off line and had a problem getting a kill in the 87-G. Compared to the IL-2 it is kind of worthless for me. Funny when I watch the real film footage of the JU-87G on YouTube the German pilots don't seem to be have the same problem a I am with it's guns. Too bad Hans Rudel is not still with us maybe he could have had some input as to the modeling of this old war birds effectiveness.
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I was playing around with the 410 and the 50mm against a 75mm Sherman...yes im aware the 50mm is HE but I wanted to see its efficacy against the soft spots on lighter tanks. hit it in the tracks once no damage , then I dove in just off vertical(maybe 80-85deg) and hit it with 2 rounds behind the turret...no damage. Third attempt I got in under 400m before firing and I clipped a tree pulling out. Upped a Ju87 with the 37mm took 3 hits from it in a 85-90deg dive to kill that same sherman. I will just grab a IL2 from now on.
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More data points would be useful for a lucid benchmark.
If anyone has killed 50+ tanks in the 87 this tour I'd like get his\her feedback. Pros\Cons. Preferred method of attack. Convergence. etc. etc. etc.
Its not going to happen. The leading 87G shooters in its first tour, to the one, have turned away from the aircraft this tour. And I assume will stay away as I have. So far this tour a player named CAMEL9 appears to be leading in tank kills with it, including 6 T-34s. Which is kinda funny cause CAMEL9 didnt exist before tour 150 and didnt kill a thing in the 87G in that tour. :huh
Keep in mind the 2nd most likely tank you will face, by far, will be a T-34. Only the paper machete P-4 is used more so the fact that "some" T-34 kills are trickling in shouldnt surprise. But less and less are, and less and less legit players are hunting it using its main nemisis from the air in the war. IL2s didnt much shoot T-34s so the 87Gs particular weakness against it is a let down.
So without a major fix one of the wars most exciting tank hunters, flown by legends, has passed the "flying turd" mark and is OTW to Queendom. Make room in the back of the hangar.
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Its not going to happen. The leading 87G shooters in its first tour, to the one, have turned away from the aircraft this tour. And I assume will stay away as I have. So far this tour a player named CAMEL9 appears to be leading in tank kills with it, including 6 T-34s. Which is kinda funny cause CAMEL9 didnt exist before tour 150 and didnt kill a thing in the 87G in that tour. :huh
Keep in mind the 2nd most likely tank you will face, by far, will be a T-34. Only the paper machete P-4 is used more so the fact that "some" T-34 kills are trickling in shouldnt surprise. But less and less are, and less and less legit players are hunting it using its main nemisis from the air in the war. IL2s didnt much shoot T-34s so the 87Gs particular weakness against it is a let down.
So without a major fix one of the wars most exciting tank hunters, flown by legends, has passed the "flying turd" mark and is OTW to Queendom. Make room in the back of the hangar.
Does any of that surprise you based on the German's repeated attempts to withdraw the Ju87 from service due to its low survivability? Your statement here makes it look like you expected the Ju87 to be something other than a sitting duck in the LWA.
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Your statement here makes it look like you expected the Ju87 to be something other than a sitting duck in the LWA.
I expect to be fighter bait in any dedicated tank killing plane. I just wish the 87 was more effective at killing tanks. I am OK with all of the rest of its attributes. I was really looking forward to tank hunting in it.
So let me ask this please. In WWII how effective were the 87g's tank busting guns compared to the IL2 and Hurri IID etc.?
It feels like I am firing tennis balls at tanks with the 87g.
EDIT: Ruah great post. I feel the same. :aok
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Here is a link I found a while back. Not sure that it answers any of your questions though.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
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Does any of that surprise you based on the German's repeated attempts to withdraw the Ju87 from service due to its low survivability? Your statement here makes it look like you expected the Ju87 to be something other than a sitting duck in the LWA.
Im not talking about "survivability". Im talking about its ability to kill tanks. Nobody expected it to be an ATA fighter but this was a great tank hunter made famous despite low numbers. Most of all by SG 2 "Immelmann", which killed thousands of Soviet tanks with their cannon.
Maybe you should actually read my statements.
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Im not talking about "survivability". Im talking about its ability to kill tanks. Nobody expected it to be an ATA fighter but this was a great tank hunter made famous despite low numbers. Most of all by SG 2 "Immelmann", which killed thousands of Soviet tanks with their cannon.
Maybe you should actually read my statements.
Killed, or claimed? Have those been vetted against Soviet losses?
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Killed, or claimed? Have those been vetted against Soviet losses?
The Soviets counted losses? This was Stalins crew. How could you put faith in anything they claimed?
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The Soviets counted losses? This was Stalins crew. How could you put faith in anything they claimed?
As much as I would the Nazis.
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Guys, the 87 is a tank killing machine but there is no way you can compare with Il2 and hurricane.
all 3 are fun and all 3 are completely different styles
The Il-2 is great for clearing an area without an specific target, what I personally call a "carpet cleaner" since the style I fly it is low on the ground strafing and going around, never looping or doing any crazy maneuvers, just keeping the speed as high as you can anticipating the prey's move and attacking a general area choosing 2 or 3 targets in a general direction. Is perfect if you want to get rid quickly of an attack, easy to aim, loads of bullets, ords and is tough!
The Hurricane 2 D is a maneuver bird with a powerfull weapon. you will dive and you will have enough time to correct your aim before opening fire, after the dive you can simply loop around or do any crazy thing to get your nose pointing to the target once again.
Now the Stuka is the new bird and is my favorite. why? it has "the dive". go 2-3k above the field altitude, choose your target, judge the distance and begin your dive. Once you gain control over the dive start anticipating the prey's movements and aim for the ENGINE or the TURRET... NOT the frontal or the side "walls", that's a big nono.
it will take a few shots, is your decision to stop firing since you have to save ammo, sometimes you will have to risk wasting a shot that you didn't need because you killed the target already just to be sure. then extend on low altitude, later on climb and head towards the frontline once again. if you want a really accurate shot you can come from greater altitudes but it will take more time.
The main difference of this new style is that it requires more patience and passion then the other 2.
Keep in mind that busting tanks with cannons is a gameplay style not different from flying buffs. People that like taking the time to climb, fly in formation, head towards the strats and face whatever happens and do everything to get back home are people that like this game style,I've even seen a text someone made about it! don't have the link here tho
I just got back to the game so i lost the first days but still I will try to make a good tour to give the Ju87-G a good name.
It IS effective against tanks... it's what it was made for!
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also keep in mind I do not like to ruin the fun of the Gver's friendlies or enemies so I don't stand on the spawn hwen it's dominated by A20's and such, I land and come back only when the situation is out of controll and there are some friendly tanks who need help. Afterall if you keep killing the same guy as he respawns he will just not respawn and log off.. and you might even ruin the fun of the friendly Gvers if you are shooting at the same tank they are... so look for the ones that haven't been seen, who represent danger and such.. you don't like when someone clears your twelve do ya? in the other hand if someone kills a guy in your six you say "thank you".
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Killed, or claimed?
Key.
Stop for a moment and consider how you would know you had destroyed a tank from an aeroplane. Diving. Pulling out. Looking back? Seeing what?
Then look at the British analysis of actual Typhoon kills in Normandy.
- oldman
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I understand that tankers don't like bombs and being bomb****ed. . . fair enough, that is a different debate.
But dedicated tank killers, especially something like the 87G2 which has nothing but the 12 rounds and a bb pea shooter. I think the damage should go up until it kills from a flat angle at d3c-d4c
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I don't think I have faced the t34 85 yet, but I see it's possible to get the smaller one with one shot in the engine 2 shots to be sure :D
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Then look at the British analysis of actual Typhoon kills in Normandy.
There's a difference between dropping bombs or firing rockets that may hit anything but the tank and the shots from slower Hs129B or Ju 87G with 3 or 3.7cm cannons - you actually see a hit and often also secondary explosions. Kill chances from the latter two a/c are a lot higher than from a Tiffy.
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I don't think I have faced the t34 85 yet, but I see it's possible to get the smaller one with one shot in the engine 2 shots to be sure :D
I did the other day, put the first round in the top to kill its turret, then circle around to the rear and fire one set at 300, second at 150 and hope he/she dies. I am looking forward to a tiger 2 sometime, I bet it will take all 12 and not slow down!
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There's a difference between dropping bombs or firing rockets that may hit anything but the tank and the shots from slower Hs129B or Ju 87G with 3 or 3.7cm cannons - you actually see a hit and often also secondary explosions. Kill chances from the latter two a/c are a lot higher than from a Tiffy.
P-47s claimed the same from bouncing .50s off of the road to hit the "unarmored" bellies of German tanks. They were wrong of course, but they still claimed it and saw the fires and such.
People make claims that the Germans were hyper accurate on kill claims with all sorts of proof required, yet the moment the Germans fought over territory they didn't own, or own shortly after, they started claiming more than three times what they actually destroyed.
I am also curious about the striking angle of the 37mm rounds that aren't being effective in AH. If you come in levelish on a T-34 and hit its hull armor, that is quite a bit of slope.
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As much as I would the Nazis.
Except it wasnt the Nazis that did the counting. Either way the Soviets kept no records of tanks lost to 87Gs. Heres an interesting sight http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-Busters/MythBusters2.html#an_8 In it you will find
Causes of T-34 losses from June 1941 to September 1942 (expressed as % of total).
Weapon Calibre 20mm 37mm Short 50mm Long 50mm 75mm 88mm 105mm Unknown
% Lost 4.7 10 7.5 54.3 10.1 3.4 2.9 7.1
While, of course, the 10% of T-34s lost from 37mm was with 37mm ATGs it does show you the 37mm was effective even shot from the ground at T34s. Even if they were T34/76s, which were plated almost as well as the 85s.
The German process of kill verification of tanks http://www.warandgamemsw.com/blog/591681-tank-busting-aircraft-at-kursk/
The process for verification for tank claims was ordered 22. May 1944, Az. 95/44 (LP (A) 5, V) and was published on 12. June 1944 in Luftwaffenverordnungsblatt.
As with all orders from higher ranks it was quite complicated. For example it explained exactly what a "Panzer" was. As a rule it what quite similar to the process for verification of Abschüsse. What is important is, that you had to have a witness in the air or on the ground (members of your own crew were not allowed) and that the claims were confirmed at the Luftflottenkommando, not at the RLM.
There were no Soviet records on tank losses from the air, let alone the small in Number cannon birds. They recorded tanks produced, tanks lost, and estimated with what calibre they were lost to. The first two being, of course, very high. So the Luftwaffe claims are all we got, tho I doubt even the bureaucratic Germans were perfect.
Yaknow I keep waiting for our great 87G tank busters to post film on their 1 and 2 shot kills. Most of the ones bubbling over it have never killed anything, or at most one. Including the 3 screwballs who brought it up on 200, insulting and threatening me for no reason. Our leading killer in tour 151 with it is a player names IK who never even existed before tour 151. He's even killed a Tiger-ll with it, or at least was around it when the guy clicked quit.
Do please post video.
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Except it wasnt the Nazis that did the counting.
Who was it then? :headscratch:
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Who was it then? :headscratch:
I thought God sorted it out. :headscratch:
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Who was it then? :headscratch:
I need to tell you?
It was the German Air Force, Army, and Navy. Along with the bureaucratic machine that largely stayed intact when the Nazis took over. And only a portion involved were actually Nazis. You Huns are sticklers for numbers. I would believe German records of losses before I believed Allied records of kills.
They werent worried about Public perception cause they just wouldnt release any of it to the public.
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I need to tell you?
It was the German Air Force, Army, and Navy. Along with the bureaucratic machine that largely stayed intact when the Nazis took over. And only a portion involved were actually Nazis.
This is so much incorrect, I don't even know where to start. Just a detail .There wasn't even an German Air Force when the Nazis took over. They created it. Göring created it, making it the most "national socialistic" arm of them all. The Luftwaffe was as much Nazi as the whole society. Luftwaffe medical doctors and personnel conducted gruesome experiments on POW's. Rudel himself is a prime example for a fervent Nazi, fully embracing all of the ideology and being connected with the Neo Nazi movement until his death. He lived that ideology. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick A t-34..
A small number of evil nazis taking over an otherwise respectable & honorable society, particularly with an 'innocent' Army/Navy/Air Force is a myth, which seems to be very resilient especially within former western allied countries. No, we should trust "the Soviets", becasue they were all commies, but the Germans were no nazis at all except for a small number of henchmen.
In both cases, reality was far from that.
So yes, I do doubt the numbers as much as I doubt all the siimilar numbers presented by any faction. Typhoon driver claims on destroyed tanks, 8th AF bomber gunner claims, German Tankbuster claims, or German bomber pilots claims of sunk CV's (remember Royal Oak?).
When the first 1000 bomber raid had hit cologne, the Luftwaffe officially reported much less enemy planes that actually took part, even to Hitler himself (It was in fact the local party administration who set the facts straight).
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Rich46yo,
In the Battle of Britain the Germans claimed more than three times as many kills of British aircraft as they actually got. In the first month of the battle the British actually claimed less than they got, then they went on an orgy of overclaiming for the next two months.
The only airforce that claimed less than they got for the entire war was the Finnish airforce, and that was revealed by the Soviet records of their losses, that which you derisively dismiss as something the Soviets wouldn't even keep.
So no, I do not hold Nazi claims in any higher regard than I hold Soviet claims.
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woah! that ik guy's statistics are quite awesome :O
I mean... woah
o_o
anyway, video? ill look for a nice one.
postin' soon
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trying to figure out how to post films via the forums :headscratch:
EDIT: ok lol figured it out but the file size is to big, trying to figure out how to cut the film now lol
EDIT2: yay! figured it out http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,337589.0.html check the last post.
It was not a very good dive as I had to force the second shot without proper aim, I have other film but it's t34 76 and instead there were 3 shots but my dive was FAR more stable
<S>
btw, it is by 7-8 minutes that the dive begins i think
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Every branch of the German armed forces, with the possible exception of the Navy, had its rabid nazis. I never said it didnt. The worst however, other then then the SS, was the Army. Who had boots on the ground and assisted in mass genocide in many ways. In many places. Even if it was just logistical. "Im wondering how this got into a who was a Nazi thread"? And what do "Doctors performing experiments" have to do with kill counts?
Everyone knows Rudel was a Nazi, and a dedicated one. No doubt his kills were inflated for propaganda purposes. But in general this was frowned upon in the Luftwaffe, as it was in WW1 and to say there was no German air force before Hitler is simply silly. The traditions, Leaders, pilots,industrial infrastructure, of The Imperial German air force of WW1 was still in place. All that was needed was modern airframes. Gliders sufficed in the early '30s, as did Spain. LOL The USAAC wasnt much bigger then the Luftwaffe between wars. After the Treaty of Versailles the German army was limited to 100,000 men and no tanks. The Navy to 6 ships and no submarines. Were the seeds to their later expansion still in place for Hitler?
A small number of evil nazis taking over an otherwise respectable & honorable society, particularly with an 'innocent' Army/Navy/Air Force is a myth, which seems to be very resilient especially within former western allied countries.
Ive actually said the opposite many times. Ive called The Holocaust the worst kept secret of the war with millions of Germans either participating or profiting, and most certainly "knowing". Its nice to see a modern German shamed of his forefathers cause you should be. Even still, at its height, The Nazi Party only had 8,000,000 members in a nation of almost 70,000,000 people with 37% of members being female. I bet the Luftwaffe members, and they were probably 10% or less of the force, were mostly the leadership and opportunists. Not all that different then current Generals, and General wannabes, affiliating with a Political party. Some things never change.
This is so much incorrect, I don't even know where to start. Just a detail .There wasn't even an German Air Force when the Nazis took over. They created it. Göring created it, making it the most "national socialistic" arm of them all. The Luftwaffe was as much Nazi as the whole society. Luftwaffe medical doctors and personnel conducted gruesome experiments on POW's. Rudel himself is a prime example for a fervent Nazi, fully embracing all of the ideology and being connected with the Neo Nazi movement until his death. He lived that ideology. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick A t-34..
A small number of evil nazis taking over an otherwise respectable & honorable society, particularly with an 'innocent' Army/Navy/Air Force is a myth, which seems to be very resilient especially within former western allied countries. No, we should trust "the Soviets", becasue they were all commies, but the Germans were no nazis at all except for a small number of henchmen.
In both cases, reality was far from that.
So yes, I do doubt the numbers as much as I doubt all the siimilar numbers presented by any faction. Typhoon driver claims on destroyed tanks, 8th AF bomber gunner claims, German Tankbuster claims, or German bomber pilots claims of sunk CV's (remember Royal Oak?).
When the first 1000 bomber raid had hit cologne, the Luftwaffe officially reported much less enemy planes that actually took part, even to Hitler himself (It was in fact the local party administration who set the facts straight).
Lusche what they reported to Hitler, and what they actually recorded, are of course going to be two different things. Most of all late in the war. Im assuming nobody wanted to be the one carrying bad news to Stalin either. The Luftwaffe had a very simple, and stringent, rule on kill confirmation. There had to be two independent witnesses and/or gun cam footage. What happened during the BOB is pretty simple to figure out. Theres a reason they call it The Battle Of Britain ; It happened over Britain! Of course British confirmation would be more accurate cause the crash air frames are in Ole Bessies farm pasture. And the Brits had their issues with confirmations early too. And we Yanks were often FUBAR with ours. Most of all with the Heavies. One of the reasons I believe the Germans more is cause most of that air war happened over German occupied territory.
The problem with the Soviets is they can say how many of what they built, and how many of what they lost, but not how they lost to what. The first year of the way was a Logistical clusterfrack for them. Their CnC constantly changing from head shots, distances so vast, comms so bad, their armed forces shaken up from top to bottom. Well? If anyone can find me a legit statistical sight on Soviet tank losses to what aircraft I'd like to see it.
Lastly please list the names of the Actual LUFTWAFFE Doctors who performed the tests you mentioned, and yes I am familiar with them. The altitude and cold weather tests.
Not the SS Doctors who performed them FOR the Luftwaffe but the actual Luftwaffe Doctors.
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Were Ju87Gs active in the first year of the Great Patriotic War? If not, then the Soviet difficulties of tracking things in that year are moot for the purposes of discounting their having any idea what they lost to what.
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rich, you weren't actually asking for a film were you? my mind is to litteral sometimes :(
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rich, you weren't actually asking for a film were you? my mind is to litteral sometimes :(
We dont give cookies for killing Shermans. Or Panzers. But in the future dont go to all that trouble unless you get a clean kill. Like this.
http://youtu.be/CCu4AUvGDao
http://youtu.be/tNhwFcwjtcM
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I'm not bragging.
I thougt, as someone in a previous post said, people wanted feedback and such as some think it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a t34 kill with 2 shots
As I said in the post, look in the LAST post I made in that thread. the FILM.. ahf showing a dive in a t34
The videos you posted are great clean kills and I recon you are far better then me but still it sounds like you really like to brag about it... Had I known you had all that skill I wouldn't have posted the t34 film because you know quite well that it is not a trouble getting that kill with 2 shots.
Not a L00k @ MY UB3R SK3315 contest, I just thougt this was an honest topic concerning the capability of the JU87... saw some posts saying it is not strong as it should. well you know it is just as you see in the youtube real footage.
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As much as I would the Nazis.
remember Nazis were accounting Nazis too, that why there is an expression "gammar Nazi" and so on. Also sovits tank kills are diff from claim kills from Germans. If German knocks out tank/kills crew it's a claimed kill if soviots replace crew/fix tank it's not a loss
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remember Nazis were accounting Nazis too, that why there is an expression "gammar Nazi" and so on. Also sovits tank kills are diff from claim kills from Germans. If German knocks out tank/kills crew it's a claimed kill if soviots replace crew/fix tank it's not a loss
German overclaiming says otherwise.
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German overclaiming says otherwise.
I know it's hard to take claims as 100% I just wanted to point out the difficulties of cross referencing
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It was actually a nicely done video. But it was a Sherman you killed not a T-34 or tougher. Ive killed Shermans with a Yak-9T. Ive even killed T-34s with them. BTW it wasnt a clean kill of the Sherman. Maybe you smoked it, Maybe. But you didnt kill it.
But hey, you made a nice video.
I'm not bragging.
I thougt, as someone in a previous post said, people wanted feedback and such as some think it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a t34 kill with 2 shots
As I said in the post, look in the LAST post I made in that thread. the FILM.. ahf showing a dive in a t34
The videos you posted are great clean kills and I recon you are far better then me but still it sounds like you really like to brag about it... Had I known you had all that skill I wouldn't have posted the t34 film because you know quite well that it is not a trouble getting that kill with 2 shots.
Not a L00k @ MY UB3R SK3315 contest, I just thougt this was an honest topic concerning the capability of the JU87... saw some posts saying it is not strong as it should. well you know it is just as you see in the youtube real footage.
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Luftwaffe medical doctors and personnel conducted gruesome experiments on POW's.
?
Im waiting.
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remember Nazis were accounting Nazis too, that why there is an expression "gammar Nazi" and so on. Also sovits tank kills are diff from claim kills from Germans. If German knocks out tank/kills crew it's a claimed kill if soviots replace crew/fix tank it's not a loss
IIRC, soviets count any tank that gets disabled as a 'destroyed' or whatever they would call it in their inventory. Germans, on the other hand, only listed tanks as destroyed if they were total losses.
One would think that for counting kills made, both nations would use a system similar to that used for counting losses recieved.
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It was actually a nicely done video. But it was a Sherman you killed not a T-34 or tougher. Ive killed Shermans with a Yak-9T. Ive even killed T-34s with them. BTW it wasnt a clean kill of the Sherman. Maybe you smoked it, Maybe. But you didnt kill it.
But hey, you made a nice video.
Rich, read what I've wroten, it is the LAST post in that thread, and yes it was a clean kill. if you want the ahf for that too I can send, I just cut the youtube video in that part because the tank disapears instead of exploding and thast is not interesting visually. look at the FILM on the last post... the T34 kill.
PLEASE read what the person writes in the posts, PLEASE it is disrespectfull to respond without reading what the other person wrote. DOWNLOAD the .ahf on the LAST post in that Thread I posted the link. look at 8:00 minutes of the video, there is the T34 kill, I'm not talkin' about sherman.
If only they let us post films in this thread you would have watched it already
EDIT: Here, to make it easier for ya bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=337589.0;attach=15791 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=337589.0;attach=15791)
Move the mouse cursor to this thing I just posted, and with the left mouse button, click on it. When asked, select "Download" and then play the .ahf file with your Aces High film viewer.
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Please start reading what people type before responding... I've made the same mistake once in this forums and the result was real bad.
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can stuka 37mm kill tiger or tiger2 from side shots?
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What you showed on your video was not a clean kill. I saw a good hit on the turret top and a piece of metal come off. I didnt see anything blow up and/or no kill message. If you say it actually was, but just wasnt shown on the video, then I'll believe you. But what I saw wasnt.
Im not going to download nothing. Killing Shermans isnt the topic at hand anyway. Killing T34s and tougher is. And I know the plane can do it, my point being it doesnt do it well enough to be accurate to history.
Who knows? Maybe its a bit better after that "increased damage but not penetration" thingy. But since I stopped flying it I wouldnt know.
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but rich, I didn't want to show you the sherman kill :( what I posted last is what I wanted to show the whole time! read!! the t34! because I see that your point is "not well enough to be accurate to history" but if a kill in a t34 with 2 shots isn't powerfull enough what would be? a single round?
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You should read the book about Rudel, with pictures , some air pictures showing a graveyard of t34s smoking/burning.
ISBN 0-88740-252-6
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?
Im waiting.
Look up the 1946\1947 'Doctors Trials' at Nuremberg. Several Luftwaffe doctors and medical personnel were convicted of war crimes over human experimentation at concentration and POW camps.
I'll spare the forum the grizzly details.
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You should read the book about Rudel, with pictures , some air pictures showing a graveyard of t34s smoking/burning.
ISBN 0-88740-252-6
It appears that that is just a newer version of Rudel's autobiography.
Once you've read it, you should sit and consider how much of it is true.
- oldman
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Look up the 1946\1947 'Doctors Trials' at Nuremberg. Several Luftwaffe doctors and medical personnel were convicted of war crimes over human experimentation at concentration and POW camps.
I'll spare the forum the grizzly details.
Now, now, he did ask, after all.
Hermann Becker-Freysang, Captain (Stabsarzt) in the Luftwaffe's medical service. He was interested in the effects of salt water on healthy people, so he force-fed or injected it into 50 Dachau inmates to see what would happen. Biopsied their livers without anesthetic. All of them died. He wrote a paper about it.
Gerhard Rose, Brigadier General (Generalarzt) in the Luftwaffe. He gave 1200 Dachau inmates malaria, but hey, almost 800 of them lived!
Oskar Schroeder, Colonel? (Generaloberstabsarzt) of the Luftwaffe medical service. He and Dr. Rose thought it would be interesting to give inmates typhus, in nicely controlled experiments where some of them were given what might have been an antidote. Many of them lived, too!
Georg August Weltz, Lt. Colonel? (Oberfeldarzt) of the Lutfwaffe medical service, was actually acquitted. The others received sentences much shorter than their experimental subjects got.
I also count one "consulting physician to the Luftwaffe," two staff members of the Department for Aviation Medicine at the German Experimental Institute for Aviation, and one from the Institute for Aviation Medicine, if that was different. Not Luftwaffe officers, you understand.
You can see how all of these experiments were closely related to Luftwaffe concerns (oddly enough, the high-altitude experiments where inmates were depressurized until they died were conducted by other, perhaps more serious doctors).
- oldman
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I thank you for providing several of those names. It was my understanding that the Doctors involved were either SS or "consulting Doctors" for the Luftwaffe.
Dont know how this thread turned into this but all I did was ask for the names. It appears there were a few.
Yaknow I dont even remember defending the morality of the Luftwaffe. I just said they were pretty good at counting. Even Nazis could count. And even if you dont agree with Rudels honor its hard to deny he had it.
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can stuka 37mm kill tiger or tiger2 from side shots?
From side shots you can easly track them but kill.. I don't think so. It would take several passes and wouldn't be worth all the ammo, I think trying a higher angle would be better...
Tiger 2's are made of adamantium :noid
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From side shots you can easly track them but kill.. I don't think so. It would take several passes and wouldn't be worth all the ammo, I think trying a higher angle would be better...
Tiger 2's are made of adamantium :noid
Oh BS. Who in this game has even tracked a T-2 in an IL2? Let alone an 87G.
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Oh BS. Who in this game has even tracked a T-2 in an IL2? Let alone an 87G.
I've tracked Königstigers before with a 109K, dude. I've also been tracked before.
Tracks aren't some super round-absorbing sponge. Hit them enough, and they'll break.
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Were Ju87Gs active in the first year of the Great Patriotic War? If not, then the Soviet difficulties of tracking things in that year are moot for the purposes of discounting their having any idea what they lost to what.
No, the first flight of the G series was in 1943 and only a handful of G-1s took part in the Battle of Kursk along side with a number of D-3s upgunned with the 37mm Flak 18 cannons.
ack-ack
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I've tracked Königstigers before with a 109K, dude. I've also been tracked before.
Tracks aren't some super round-absorbing sponge. Hit them enough, and they'll break.
+1
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Watching my XO banging his head against a brick wall :lol
I struggled with the 87G to get kills, but tracks turrets and engines are no problem.
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"FILM". And how do you know you have tracked a tank after shooting it with cannon?
Ive posted film of numerous track hits with the 87G and havnt tracked one. While in a tank Ive been tracked by aircraft cannon maybe once or twice and you make it sound like its easy. BTW it was pretty easy in real life. The track hits are another poorly modeled part of the game. Course I go for kills not tracks unless I have rockets.
From side shots you can easly track them but kill.. I don't think so. It would take several passes and wouldn't be worth all the ammo, I think trying a higher angle would be better...
Tiger 2's are made of adamantium
In the 3 & 1/2 months you have been in the game you have exactly one kill with an IL2, which was a Panzer-4. You have no kill of Tigers with anything, have killed one T34/85, 2 t34/76s, 5 P-4s, and 7 M4A3s. Thats a total of 16 tanks kills in your entire time in Aces High. Ive killed more tanks then that in a single night. So maybe you should wait a bit until you pose as an expert.
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since i did my service in a tank , i say i take from 5 -15 mins to replace broken part(s). On a battlefield,that is a long time,but a 5 person tank crew, its definively doablefor radio-operator / driver to fix , while rest of the crew continue to shoot, and defend the tank unless drive sprocket is damaged.
Been there, done that many many times.
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Have you tried searching "AntiTank"?
I have flown for a long time under this name, I'm glod more people have grown interest in the tank busting gameplay style... I never said I'm an expert and NOBODY is interested in impressing you. I honestly wanted to answer what seemed as a legit question... you should know perfectly well all the stuff you asked before even asking them... you're a vet...
Anyway, I flew under the name Raphael when I joined JG5 and took a break on tank busting, then I stopped playing for some time and just got back to the action ;)
The films I post on youtube are not intended to be killstreak look at me's, they are edited to enternainment purposes and I will not polute it with kill videos... which is why I posted the .ahf as soon as you asked, but since I noticed that you were just trolling me I don't even know if it is worth wasting my time... chill out dude... drink a cold juice and dance some samba!
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here's an nice old Screenshot I posted long time ago on "films ans screenshots" session :)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/301/300594/hunt_over_214.png)
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This is Raphael -> :bhead
This is Rich -> :mad:
This is me -> :lol
Raphael is a very capable Tank Buster Rich. The guy flew around as 'AntiTank' for a reason.
He has spoken about tracking a Tiger. Tracking a Tank won't show up as a kill to be on any statistics anyway. If another tank kills the Tiger for instance, Raphael would only get an assist.
He very clearly has not posed as an expert but answered a question very decently, I don't understand your animosity towards him. I'm sure once you have stopped being hard headed you would benefit from his experience. I'm sure he would even wing up with you, that's what a nice chap he is.
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here's an nice old Screenshot I posted long time ago on "films ans screenshots" session :)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/301/300594/hunt_over_214.png)
All I see a Russian airplane flying past a Tiger. What kind of airplane is it? "Assuming it is the one that tracked the Tiger".
Dolby this is why I hate getting into these discussions. Theres always a pal of the other party breaking in, acting like his Lawyer, and somehow assuming that Im angry for some odd reason.
Large caliber HE rounds will easily track any tank in the game. Im not talking about HE rounds. Ive killed many hundreds of tanks with IL2s and have never tracked one with AP rounds. Nor have I done so with the 87G.
Raphael in the future reply for yourself and stop assuming Im angry just for asking a question. Or for posting stats. There :) everyone feeling better? Sheesh!
Ive hit numerous tanks in the game in the tracks with BK 3,7s and not tracked one. So what would you believe were you me? Its easy to prove you tracked one. Just hit record, record the hits, and then record the tank right after. A tracked tank is easy to see cause it leans.
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It quite obvious Raphael and myself need to wing with you in Tank Town. There must be something fundamentally wrong with your set up for shots and/or convergence.
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It quite obvious Raphael and myself need to wing with you in Tank Town. There must be something fundamentally wrong with your set up for shots and/or convergence.
Listen, you lose viewers in the first few minutes of video. 4 mins of taxi/ take off footage, followed by 10 seconds of black screen, will leave you with very few viewers left to watch flight. Pity cause you had some lovely action shots and the music was good. "The Hornet" would have been a much better film at 5 or 6 mins then at 9+.
More tips will follow as I puruse your web page. I hate seeing video talent wasted cause the "story" isnt told well.
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:lol
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Listen, you lose viewers in the first few minutes of video. 4 mins of taxi/ take off footage, followed by 10 seconds of black screen, will leave you with very few viewers left to watch flight. Pity cause you had some lovely action shots and the music was good. "The Hornet" would have been a much better film at 5 or 6 mins then at 9+.
More tips will follow as I puruse your web page. I hate seeing video talent wasted cause the "story" isnt told well.
If your trying to punish me in someway for critising you inability to shoot at ground crawlers by foolishly critiqing my film, your only coming off as a little immature.
I get a graph from youtube, and my viewing figures hold up well across the whole film, well except at the credits; I lose 95% viewership.
I guess now me and Raphael are both :bhead
Have a good day Rich I hope there is someone out there willing to help you out, you've burned your bridges with me.
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"FILM".
I don't auto-film, and merely tracking a tank didn't seem worthy of film.
And how do you know you have tracked a tank after shooting it with cannon?
Because it will slew sideways and stop moving
Ive posted film of numerous track hits with the 87G and havnt tracked one. While in a tank Ive been tracked by aircraft cannon maybe once or twice and you make it sound like its easy. BTW it was pretty easy in real life. The track hits are another poorly modeled part of the game. Course I go for kills not tracks unless I have rockets.
very possible its a result of the damage model. To be frank, the .50 cal or 20mm weapons would probably be better more effective at tracking vehicles because of the sheer damage output.
In the 3 & 1/2 months you have been in the game you have exactly one kill with an IL2, which was a Panzer-4. You have no kill of Tigers with anything, have killed one T34/85, 2 t34/76s, 5 P-4s, and 7 M4A3s. Thats a total of 16 tanks kills in your entire time in Aces High. Ive killed more tanks then that in a single night. So maybe you should wait a bit until you pose as an expert.
Raphael has been around longer than 3 1/2 months, dude. Game ID's change.
All I see a Russian airplane flying past a Tiger. What kind of airplane is it? "Assuming it is the one that tracked the Tiger".
Actually, its a Hurricane IID, which is British.
Ive hit numerous tanks in the game in the tracks with BK 3,7s and not tracked one. So what would you believe were you me? Its easy to prove you tracked one. Just hit record, record the hits, and then record the tank right after. A tracked tank is easy to see cause it leans.
How many rounds are you putting into the tracks? It can take a supprising ammount to destroy tracks here in Aces High.