87G

[Karnak]

Im not talking about "survivability". Im talking about its ability to kill tanks. Nobody expected it to be an ATA fighter but this was a great tank hunter made famous despite low numbers. Most of all by SG 2 "Immelmann", which killed thousands of Soviet tanks with their cannon.

Maybe you should actually read my statements.

Killed, or claimed?  Have those been vetted against Soviet losses?

[Rich46yo]

Killed, or claimed?  Have those been vetted against Soviet losses?

The Soviets counted losses? This was Stalins crew. How could you put faith in anything they claimed?

[Karnak]

The Soviets counted losses? This was Stalins crew. How could you put faith in anything they claimed?

As much as I would the Nazis.

[Raphael]

Guys, the 87 is a tank killing machine but there is no way you can compare with Il2 and hurricane.
all 3 are fun and all 3 are completely different styles

 The Il-2 is great for clearing an area without an specific target, what I personally call a "carpet cleaner" since the style I fly it is low on the ground strafing and going around, never looping or doing any crazy maneuvers, just keeping the speed as high as you can anticipating the prey's move and attacking a general area choosing 2 or 3 targets in a general direction. Is perfect if you want to get rid quickly of an attack, easy to aim, loads of bullets, ords and is tough!

 The Hurricane 2 D is a maneuver bird with a powerfull weapon. you will dive and you will have enough time to correct your aim before opening fire, after the dive you can simply loop around or do any crazy thing to get your nose pointing to the target once again.

 Now the Stuka is the new bird and is my favorite. why? it has "the dive". go 2-3k  above the field altitude, choose your target, judge the distance and begin your dive. Once you gain control over the dive start anticipating the prey's movements and aim for the ENGINE or the TURRET... NOT the frontal or the side "walls", that's a big nono.
it will take a few shots, is your decision to stop firing since you have to save ammo, sometimes you will have to risk wasting a shot that you didn't need because you killed the target already just to be sure. then extend on low altitude, later on climb and head towards the frontline once again. if you want a really accurate shot you can come from greater altitudes but it will take more time.

 The main difference of this new style is that it requires more patience and passion then the other 2.
Keep in mind that busting tanks with cannons is a gameplay style not different from flying buffs. People that like taking the time to climb, fly in formation, head towards the strats and face whatever happens and do everything to get back home are people that like this game style,I've even seen a text someone made about it! don't have the link here tho

I just got back to the game so i lost the first days but still I will try to make a good tour to give the Ju87-G a good name.
It IS effective against tanks... it's what it was made for!

[Raphael]

also keep in mind I do not like to ruin the fun of the Gver's friendlies or enemies so I don't stand on the spawn hwen it's dominated by A20's and such, I land and come back only when the situation is out of controll and there are some friendly tanks who need help. Afterall if you keep killing the same guy as he respawns he will just not respawn and log off.. and you might even ruin the fun of the friendly Gvers if you are shooting at the same tank they are... so look for the ones that haven't been seen, who represent danger and such.. you don't like when someone clears your twelve do ya? in the other hand if someone kills a guy in your six you say "thank you".

[Oldman731]

Killed, or claimed? 

Key.

Stop for a moment and consider how you would know you had destroyed a tank from an aeroplane.  Diving.  Pulling out.  Looking back?  Seeing what?

Then look at the British analysis of actual Typhoon kills in Normandy.

- oldman

[Ruah]

I understand that tankers don't like bombs and being bomb****ed. . . fair enough, that is a different debate.

But dedicated tank killers, especially something like the 87G2 which has nothing but the 12 rounds and a bb pea shooter.  I think the damage should go up until it kills from a flat angle at d3c-d4c

[Raphael]

I don't think I have faced the t34 85 yet, but I see it's possible to get the smaller one with one shot in the engine 2 shots to be sure 

[Denniss]

Then look at the British analysis of actual Typhoon kills in Normandy.

There's a difference between dropping bombs or firing rockets that may hit anything but the tank and the shots from slower Hs129B or Ju 87G with 3 or 3.7cm cannons - you actually see a hit and often also secondary explosions. Kill chances from the latter two a/c are a lot higher than from a Tiffy.

[Ruah]

I don't think I have faced the t34 85 yet, but I see it's possible to get the smaller one with one shot in the engine 2 shots to be sure 

I did the other day, put the first round in the top to kill its turret, then circle around to the rear and fire one set at 300, second at 150 and hope he/she dies.  I am looking forward to a tiger 2 sometime, I bet it will take all 12 and not slow down!

[Karnak]

There's a difference between dropping bombs or firing rockets that may hit anything but the tank and the shots from slower Hs129B or Ju 87G with 3 or 3.7cm cannons - you actually see a hit and often also secondary explosions. Kill chances from the latter two a/c are a lot higher than from a Tiffy.

P-47s claimed the same from bouncing .50s off of the road to hit the "unarmored" bellies of German tanks.  They were wrong of course, but they still claimed it and saw the fires and such.

People make claims that the Germans were hyper accurate on kill claims with all sorts of proof required, yet the moment the Germans fought over territory they didn't own, or own shortly after, they started claiming more than three times what they actually destroyed.

I am also curious about the striking angle of the 37mm rounds that aren't being effective in AH.  If you come in levelish on a T-34 and hit its hull armor, that is quite a bit of slope.

[Rich46yo]

As much as I would the Nazis.

Except it wasnt the Nazis that did the counting. Either way the Soviets kept no records of tanks lost to 87Gs. Heres an interesting sight http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-Busters/MythBusters2.html#an_8 In it you will find

Causes of T-34 losses from June 1941 to September 1942 (expressed as % of total).
Weapon Calibre   20mm   37mm   Short 50mm   Long 50mm   75mm   88mm   105mm   Unknown
% Lost             4.7              10             7.5               54.3            10.1             3.4             2.9             7.1

While, of course, the 10% of T-34s lost from 37mm was with 37mm ATGs it does show you the 37mm was effective even shot from the ground at T34s. Even if they were T34/76s, which were plated almost as well as the 85s.

The German process of kill verification of tanks http://www.warandgamemsw.com/blog/591681-tank-busting-aircraft-at-kursk/

The process for verification for tank claims was ordered 22. May 1944, Az. 95/44 (LP (A) 5, V) and was published on 12. June 1944 in Luftwaffenverordnungsblatt.

As with all orders from higher ranks it was quite complicated. For example it explained exactly what a "Panzer" was. As a rule it what quite similar to the process for verification of Abschüsse. What is important is, that you had to have a witness in the air or on the ground (members of your own crew were not allowed) and that the claims were confirmed at the Luftflottenkommando, not at the RLM.

There were no Soviet records on tank losses from the air, let alone the small in Number cannon birds. They recorded tanks produced, tanks lost, and estimated with what calibre they were lost to. The first two being, of course, very high. So the Luftwaffe claims are all we got, tho I doubt even the bureaucratic Germans were perfect.

Yaknow I keep waiting for our great 87G tank busters to post film on their 1 and 2 shot kills. Most of the ones bubbling over it have never killed anything, or at most one. Including the 3 screwballs who brought it up on 200, insulting and threatening me for no reason. Our leading killer in tour 151 with it is a player names IK who never even existed before tour 151. He's even killed a Tiger-ll with it, or at least was around it when the guy clicked quit.

Do please post video.

[Lusche]

Except it wasnt the Nazis that did the counting.

Who was it then? 

[Acidrain]

Who was it then? 

I thought God sorted it out. 

[Rich46yo]

Who was it then? 

I need to tell you?

It was the German Air Force, Army, and Navy. Along with the bureaucratic machine that largely stayed intact when the Nazis took over. And only a portion involved were actually Nazis. You Huns are sticklers for numbers. I would believe German records of losses before I believed Allied records of kills.

They werent worried about Public perception cause they just wouldnt release any of it to the public.