Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hitech on August 09, 2012, 01:37:51 PM
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Ok got back to the strat issue.
There was a bug that was causing the city not to effect the factories as it should, Basically the each train at the city was supplying all factories, so that the factories would come up much faster then they should have.
This was fixed on the host this afternoon and the strat should now be functioning as advertised.
HiTech
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Ok got back to the strat issue.
There was a bug that was causing the city not to effect the factories as it should, Basically the each train at the city was supplying all factories, so that the factories would come up much faster then they should have.
This was fixed on the host this afternoon, and the strat should now be functioning as advertised.
HiTech
fixed :neener:
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Just letting you know this scared the crap out of me. :bolt:
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Just letting you know this scared the crap out of me. :bolt:
:rofl :neener:
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Just letting you know this scared the crap out of me. :bolt:
What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to? I bet you did not know the game could do that. If that tweak scared you, just wait for the next update. You'll be running down the halls screaming like a little school girl. :)
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to? I bet you did not know the game could do that. Just wait for the next update. :)
Skuzzy that is not right :old:
now I am gonna be waiting by my comp and ignoring everything :cry
(well not really but still :rofl)
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to? I bet you did not know the game could do that. If that tweak scared you, just wait for the next update. :)
He ment it scared him because his in game is Strat
Skuzzy
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to? I bet you did not know the game could do that. If that tweak scared you, just wait for the next update. You'll be running down the halls screaming like a little school girl. :)
^^^^^^^^^
Gonna catch a lotta fish with that hook, hope you have a bigger boat. :lol
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to?
He ment it scared him because his in game is Strat
Skuzzy
Read that line again. Notice, I used the word "You" in asking him a question about how he is functioning?
Now, should we talk about how you are functioning? :)
Contrary to popular rumor-mongering, I do not always hit you over the head with a bat. I only do that when I am forced to, otherwise I can be pretty subtle.
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:noid
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to?
Read that line again. Notice, I used the word "You" in asking him a question about how he is functioning?
Now, should we talk about how you are functioning? :)
good one :rofl
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Question is just how does hammering the strat targets effect the bases. ;)
If HTC would give some details as to how bombing the strat targets effect the resupply of the bases it may go a long way in making bombing runs to the industrial complex a more common occurrence. ;)
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to? I bet you did not know the game could do that. If that tweak scared you, just wait for the next update. You'll be running down the halls screaming like a little school girl. :)
Would be lovely to be fully functional. Lmao
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Question is just how does hammering the strat targets effect the bases. ;)
If HTC would give some details as to how bombing the strat targets effect the resupply of the bases it may go a long way in making bombing runs to the industrial complex a more common occurrence. ;)
Doesn't it work the way it always has other than now it actually will work the way it should?
search.
I started to but got lazy.
:old:
wrongway
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The theory goes as such:
Factories supply bases. Bring factories down to x% and downtimes at bases for that type of object increases.
City supplies factories. Bring city down to x% and downtimes for factory objects increases.
You MUST take the city down before taking a factory down, otherwise factory downtime is unaffected.
This is how I remember reading about how the strat system is supposed to work.
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Ok got back to the strat issue.
There was a bug that was causing the city not to effect the factories as it should, Basically the each train at the city was supplying all factories, so that the factories would come up much faster then they should have.
This was fixed on the host this afternoon and the strat should now be functioning as advertised.
HiTech
I was right! I knew it!
I reported this bug lookit me i helped! yay! :banana:
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to?
Read that line again. Notice, I used the word "You" in asking him a question about how he is functioning?
Now, should we talk about how you are functioning? :)
Contrary to popular rumor-mongering, I do not always hit you over the head with a bat. I only do that when I am forced to, otherwise I can be pretty subtle.
As subtle as someone tripping over a computer cord anyway :)
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Now about this next update.........whats in it...... :D
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As subtle as someone tripping over a computer cord anyway :)
It is all a matter of perspective. :)
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I was right! I knew it!
I reported this bug lookit me i helped! yay! :banana:
You did not help me , because I never saw your post. But Lusche did help me a lot by posting real test results.
HiTech
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ah bummer. I posted it all over bug reports and terrain editor forums a while back.
I was just excited to have been so accurate in what i percieved to be causing the strat rebuild bug :)
city stays down but all other factories respawn in 45 minutes regardless of city status.
I believe it is related to the 5 trains that are setup to resupply the 5 factories.
if you set them up direct to the factory with a 2 mile radius the radius of resupply overlaps quite a bit onto other strats.
so unless each strat factory train is just a damage supply reduction mechanism and does not allow more than 100% resupply then its possible the factories are being supplied multiple times each time the trains run to nearby factories.
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to? I bet you did not know the game could do that. If that tweak scared you, just wait for the next update. You'll be running down the halls screaming like a little school girl. :)
Just as long as the first map up is not Trinity, otherwise I'll be running down the halls screaming like a loon.
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Question is just how does hammering the strat targets effect the bases. ;)
If HTC would give some details as to how bombing the strat targets effect the resupply of the bases it may go a long way in making bombing runs to the industrial complex a more common occurrence. ;)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/Help-Section/Flight-Sim-Information/aces-high-help-gameplay.html#ss
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Just as long as the first map up is not Trinity, otherwise I'll be running down the halls screaming like a loon.
Now now Ted, how is that any different from every other day????? :D :D :D
Sorry, I just kinda sorta had to ;)
See ya's up.
Wurz
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Well, this confirms it HiTech is a DWEEB :lol :lol
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What? You do not want to be functioning the way you are supposed to? I bet you did not know the game could do that. If that tweak scared you, just wait for the next update.
Looking forward to it :aok
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I have a question about the train tracks around the city.
Do some tracks supply more than one asset?
I ask this because I have a film from a few days ago where I saw a train every 5 minutes (possibly less) heading down toward the city.
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This fix seems to have reintroduced the shy strats bug.
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The theory goes as such:
Factories supply bases. Bring factories down to x% and downtimes at bases for that type of object increases.
City supplies factories. Bring city down to x% and downtimes for factory objects increases.
You MUST take the city down before taking a factory down, otherwise factory downtime is unaffected.
This is how I remember reading about how the strat system is supposed to work.
Maybe. Perhaps. No one knows save for HTC themselves. There is no HTC based information to reference. It the AH Trainer's website has anything that might be from 2002 so I wouldn't pay much attention to that. It would be nice to know of the thresholds needed to reach in order to have XYZ effect on the default resupply (convoy, barge, train, etc) of bases. As it is we can bomb the industrial complex down to its knees and we don't know how it effects the bases.
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In my year here, I have yet to see the city bombed below 24 percent..........except when I drove a tank in while friendlies bombed it.
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Now now Ted, how is that any different from every other day????? :D :D :D
Sorry, I just kinda sorta had to ;)
See ya's up.
Wurz
Wakka wakka. :D Camarillo Air Show this weekend, fyi.
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Rgr bud, wont be able to make it, on a techie course for work - sigh
Thanks for the heads up tho,
Wurz
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Something still now quite right.
I did a couple of sorties on Trinity, both in the regular MA as well as in custom arena. Damage to the factories was indeed a lot more persistant when the City was at reduced percentage. Even with city at 80% and 60%, factory downtimes were increased considerably and now allowed for some effective bombing missions.
However, this evening I was doing the same to (rook) strats on OZkansas in the MA. I brought City down to 36%, then hammered the ammo factory. To my surprise, despite city being down that much all the time, the ammo factory was up to 100% again only 45 minutes after I had destroyed the last buildings.
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The AH help file lists 2 hours. Would be nice.
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However, this evening I was doing the same to (rook) strats on OZkansas in the MA. I brought City down to 36%, then hammered the ammo factory. To my surprise, despite city being down that much all the time, the ammo factory was up to 100% again only 45 minutes after I had destroyed the last buildings.
Did test it again in controlled environment (custom arena) and could not replicate it. But the error above really happened that way, I double checked my films & notes. :headscratch:
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Maybe this is "The" candidate for Hitech's new direction of making things simple.
This is more complicated and confusion than anything affecting so much in the game so subtily requiring so much more effort than it's worth.
I cannot remember a time that the requirements to make it delay resupply times to a whole country have ever been in force. The sheer volumes of negative discource over time about it should have been the best indicator of it's facility to the enjoyment and challenge of the game. I grant that it's complexity in part is to protect the three largest entities in the game from constant griefing by the tyranny of the minority.
Strat status makes no sense to the average player to what the condition of his country is other than 20-80-20 some of the time. It should be something simple enough in response to assaults that the average player can pull up an indicator list on his clipboard as basic as a (Full-|-Half-|-You'er Screwed) fuel gauge and understand how close his country is to a severe dead line or point of no return.
The cause and effect of strat and the clipboard means of determining it are both too complex and arcaine for more than a handful of players to care about. Especialy since we have never had to worry about the results other than occasionally resupplying the HQ. Kind of the problem with strat. If it's cause and effect is simple enough for us to take notice out of our adrenalin fueled furballs, it's simple enough to make the game unplayable for a single country every night of the week while driving players out of their subscriptions.
Yes mommy I cross my heart and swear I will not eat all of that candy the first night you and dad leave me alone with it.
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Bustr,
Although I have to agree with the consequences of "wiki" strat complexities. I am fairly certain that HiTech intends for his product to perform as designed. So, to speak to any movement in direction of game play, it seems to be more of a status quo, UNLESS there are indeed some upcoming change to stratocasters' performance. ;)
However, it is important to recognize that a relatively small dedicated force of players, may impact the game play of the majority, as has been the charge for those who have simply overwhelmed the complexities of the base capture system. With no viable alternative to discourage long range extreme altitude bombing attacks, (besides maybe hiring mercantile muppet jet aces to defend country strats), prepare for the forum whines to build into a high pitched brake squeal.
This fix seems to have reintroduced the shy strats bug.
Please be more specific. Do the strats move more easily? Are strats harder to effectively reduce percentage?
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Strat is so arcane it protects itself. Otherwise it would be the greif of choice to engender the greatest number of ch200 whines possible.
Consider the HQ. If it took 50 C47 runs to bring back radar, someone would drop the HQ at least once a night. And a small number of players would find it entertaining to be in the area NOE to shoot down C47 to mess with the long tooth pulling resupply time. Or they would simply kill ord at the closest feilds timed with the HQ strike. But, the long term greif and sticking it to that country would be worth the whines on ch200 and in this forum.
If taking down strat engendered something akin to that, strat would be a sitting duck. Now if strat after a certain amount of it was taken down could be manualy resupplied with the resupply effort showing a country wide positive effect. You might have something. Win the war with 20% of one country captured plus 100% taken down strat of the other even if it has 50% of your country captured. Or 10% of his feilds captured and 50% of his strats destoryed or something arcane like that. Then spread the strats out from each other and put flack feilds all around and in them in spades. First supplys dropped off brings back 25% of the flack. Include 100% of the flack down as part of the individual strat destroyed. Gives you mission planners some numbers and options to work with while deciding the best way to win a map.
Suddenly escorting bomber raids and protecting resupply C47 becomes a way to generate fighter combat or loose the map to a buzy littel hoard if you feel apathetic or just want to TT all night long. Adjust GV spawns and you might get some intersting M3 runs and GV fights around the individual strat.
Now you can engage in base capture and strat destruction as a hoard to reset the map while POing the furballers and TTers by taking their map away from them while Rome burns and they fiddle in the feilds.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/Help-Section/Flight-Sim-Information/aces-high-help-gameplay.html#ss
that's very outdated, not sure that really applies anymore. just read the paragraph above it for winning the war.
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Does this guy ever get tired of posting walls of text.
:bhead
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Does this guy ever get tired of posting walls of text.
:bhead
Maybe we type fast.... :bolt: Evelyn Wood Speed Reading Course, maybe needs a chapter on BBS posts ;)
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I spend 12 of the last 24 hours bombing the strats systematically and I have to say: It seems they are working now as intended. So far I could not reproduce the glitch I mentioned earlier, so it remains a mystery... for now. :old:
For example today I first bombed the city down to 32%, then did a follow up attack on the ammo factory bringing it down to 28%. The damage to the ammo factory remained for 2 hours, and it had notable impact on the downtime of ords of the few rook bases that had their ords porked around the same time - it seemed that they stayed down for about 1.5-2 hours too, instead of the standard 45 minutes.
So while playing the strategic card is still not an use of 'resources" as 'efficient' as the standard basegrab missions, it does give bomber pilots looking for something else than the usual "fly one sector, drop hangars" routine a viable target. In fact, when I alone was able to keep one factory down for some time, just two or three player coordinating their attacks could make a much quicker, and more lasting impact. Especially on a map like Ozkansas, where many front line fields can only be resupplied by goon and not by m3.
It only takes three good B-29 sorties to smash the city and one factory, even just two sorties can make a big impact while a third player starts porking the enemy bases. So if only 3 (able!) out of 60-150 players would do the strat thing at any given time, it could have a notable effect. I have to say this is the first time ever in my AH career that I regret not having any henchmen, err squaddies...
But I have no illusions. We are so much being used that "strats are not worth it" that we won't see much activity in that direction. The occasional strat raider will drop his bombs all over the factories with no lasting impact, and the even rarer strat missions will do the same with even less efficiency. When I called out the state of the ammo factory and that porking the enemy island bases NOW will keep ords down for almost 2 hours, nobody cared. Not even the airmchair generals who constantly complain that we "aren't fighting as a team" or "when will we learn to PORK". ;)
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Have you verified that you must take the City down before taking out the factories, to keep the factories down longer? Strat missions might need to know that, so they hit targets in the right sequence. ;)
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Have you verified that you must take the City down before taking out the factories, to keep the factories down longer?
Yes.
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Lusch,
So spread the strat around each country and make 100% destruction of one installation along with a percentage of bases captured part of winning the war. And allow player resupply of the strat to throw a monkey wrench in the 100% destruction towards winning the war. Just like a single pilot can hide in that last map room needed to win the war and make everyone scream in the mission trying to take it.
Now bomber groups have something to do all night. Visit as many strat as possible in force to keep most of them down close enough to 75% that the host country has to play whack-a-mole choosing to defend\resupply the one that wins the war when it's 100% down. Guys who like resupply runs in M3 and C47 will have fun reversing the bombing efforts. Sort of like rebuilding factories after the 8th bombed them in WW2. Now you have something else to do with fighter sweeps. Stop the active resupply efforts and furball with defenders of the resupply efforts.
Like anyone will even bother to resupply, even if it means keeping one of the two other countires from winning the map..... ;)
Or maybe predefine one of the dispersed strat as "The" required strat to kill in the war win formula. The rest have a small agregate percentage effect on rebuild times to the overall country as they are destroyed. Reversed as they are resupplied. It will be simple like knowing that enemy bombers at the HQ means lights out if you don't defend it.
Not sure how you would handle capturing all the feilds around a strat cutting it off from the rest of it's country.
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I have been letting buffs have a free pass to bomb the strats out of curiousity.
I really would like to see what happens if you bomb the city center below 20% and completely crush a single strat down to nothing.
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Have you verified that you must take the City down before taking out the factories, to keep the factories down longer? Strat missions might need to know that, so they hit targets in the right sequence. ;)
Yes.
I was under the impression that that the condition of the city impacted the 'value' of the trains running to the factories. If the city was taken down to a certain percentage the resupply trains would only be worth 1/6 there normal value. The value of the train was set when it left the station and a train runs every 10 minutes. Hitting the city first and then waiting for any fully loaded trains to reach the factories before hitting the factory would give you the biggest bang for you buck -- that is the factories will be down the longest time possible -- but hitting the city after a factory should still keep the factory down for a longer time -- just not the longest time.
The same would apply at the field level. There could be a fully loaded resupply convoy on the road and you would want to hit the factory first, wait the 10 minutes for any fully loaded convoys to arrive, and then take down the field supplies so they are down the longest time possible.
You may have been saying this Lusche, but I don't want to be confused that bombing the city after hitting a factory is pointless.
:salute
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Strat? ....frankly I prefer a Les Paul Custom!
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I was under the impression (...)
Me too :)
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Thank you to snailman, a few of the FB guys, and mcgavin (maybe a few I missed) for helping bomb and shell down the city and surrounding strats.
Getting the city down did have a good effect on the individual strat downtimes until someone named "ET" made a few resupply runs with a c47 which caused all strats and the city come up from less than 25% to all being 100% in less than 40 minutes.
Sadly, he refused to say how many trips it took.......which is one of the things we are tying to find out.
Maybe he doesn't speak english.
If anybody can find out from him, it would really help us to understand whether it is working as it should.
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Icepak,I asked you a question. The question was who are you talking to.
You never answered. I did not refuse to help. The answer is about 5 loads but
there were 2 other guys running sups too. I scored 18 points on a couple of runs
to the traing base. 1 factory jumped from about 38% to 90% very quickly. The 2
supply runs to the city did not move it off 60%
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The 2 supply runs to the city did not move it off 60%
Unlike the factories, the City had never been resupplyable by players in AH.
And the manual resupply seems inded to be explanation while the factories stayd down much shorter in the MA than in the custom arena. I just did a (sloppy) test myself, but am to tired now for some serious work on it. After all I have spent almost 30 hours in the air during the last few days doing strat runs in the MA (not counting CA playtests). Will probably have another look at it tomorrow and sunday ...
But so far it has to be noted that in general the strats still work as they should with the train resupply bug having been eliminated. The 'old' strats had been resupplied a lot by players too, but now it has a higher impact as the strat raiders have to invest way more time and effort in their missions than with the old decentralized strats. Now about 1 manhour of resupply (goons from next friendly airbase) easily offsets 5-20 manhours of attack runs on the strats.
As it stands, my countless B-29 runs on the strats turn out to be nothing but a splendid perk generator for players on the opposing side without any effort or risk. :(
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Icepak,I asked you a question. The question was who are you talking to.
You never answered. I did not refuse to help. The answer is about 5 loads but
there were 2 other guys running sups too. I scored 18 points on a couple of runs
to the traing base. 1 factory jumped from about 38% to 90% very quickly. The 2
supply runs to the city did not move it off 60%
I'm guessing you answered on your country channel.
I was on another country and not privy to what you typed.
Thanks for your post the information here..
If you remember where the supplies were dropped, that might help too.
The city seemed to sit at 36% until the resupplying started and then it seemed to jump up just like the rest of the strategic objects.
Did any rooks notice down times at the fields for guns or troops taking longer?
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No rooks noticed extra down time that I know of.
Do not remember where all the loads were dropped but 2 were at training base
and 2 at city that I learned can not be supped
I did not know that factory's could be resupped until recently
If I do it again tomorrow ,I will keep records
Old age is not for sissy's
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Did any rooks notice down times at the fields for guns or troops taking longer?
Such things will hardly be noticed at all unless one is really looking for it. And most players do not even know how long the standard downtimes are. For them a base has ords or it has not.
But I was looking for it and when i smashed ammo factory two days ago (and it stayed down for a long time), I also noted the extended down times of ords on two rook island bases.
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What happens to the duration of a porked ammo bunker at an airfield with no manual resupply if the ammo fac is damaged (what % I've no clue), & what happens if the city also be damaged (again can some one supply a %) in conjunction with the ammo fac?
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What happens to the duration of a porked ammo bunker at an airfield with no manual resupply if the ammo fac is damaged (what % I've no clue), & what happens if the city also be damaged (again can some one supply a %) in conjunction with the ammo fac?
With factory 100% up and all convoys coming through, ords bunkers at a base will stay down for about 45 minutes. The more damage the ammo factory has, the longer this downtime is going to be, as less supply is leaving the factory. Maximum downtime of field items like ords bunkers is 2h, which is reached when the ammo factory is completely dead (0%).
The City has no direct influence on the field objects, it's resupplying the factories. Thus hitting the City will keep the factory down for a longer time, up to 3h. In both cases, manual supply can speed things up considerably.
Tested in custom arena:
City 80% -> Factory was down for ~94 minutes
City 60% -> Factory down ~120 minutes
City 40% -> Factory down ~144 minutes
Supply Chain
City->supplies->Factory
Factory->supplies->Field objects
The City itself can not be resupplied by players, downtime is always 6h
For the reasons I outlined in my last post before this, I'd suggest to disable or greatly reduce the ability to manually resupply the factories as long as we still have the current system :old:
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or just bring back the old zone system.. I always liked it. there were better battles for zone bases then have ever happened since the new super strat-factory-cities. which stinks, because the strat cities look so cool. i'm sure they could figure a new use for them.
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For the reasons I outlined in my last post before this, I'd suggest to disable or greatly reduce the ability to manually resupply the factories as long as we still have the current system :old:
I'd like to add my $0.02 worth on the whole issue of "tactical" supplies, at field level, as opposed to the strats. Running in supps in an M3 certainly does have a noticeable affect, but the "perkie" compensation is barely worth the time and effort involved.
I know, I know, not everyone does it for perkies, but if we take the 10 you get for grabbing the map room as a base, running in supps seems very under-valued. A couple dozen of us were trying to take a nme gv base right in the middle of our territory, and were completely stymied by the M3s getting past us to run in supps.
By the same token, whacking road convoys to keep the field objects down is also hardly worth the time involved. For giggles, I took a Wirbel to shoot up the trucks. Wiped out four entire convoys over however bloody long for the princely total of 2.81 perks.
I've mentioned elsewhere my primeval need to strafe trains, we've been hankering for "destructible" bridges forever, anything to give jabos a worthwhile role in the same way as giving the heavies a worthwhile role in bombing strats.
I guess what I'm saying is, it's not just the strats alone which are worth considering, but the field-level elements as well, and (he said in his "make it so" Captain Picard voice) maps which make best use of all the supply elements.
ah wants mah roads an trucks an bridges an trainz an barges an shippin convoys an C47s like dey used to haz in AW.
Is that really too much to ask?
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I'd like to add my $0.02 worth on the whole issue of "tactical" supplies, at field level, as opposed to the strats. Running in supps in an M3 certainly does have a noticeable affect, but the "perkie" compensation is barely worth the time and effort involved.
I know, I know, not everyone does it for perkies, but if we take the 10 you get for grabbing the map room as a base, running in supps seems very under-valued. A couple dozen of us were trying to take a nme gv base right in the middle of our territory, and were completely stymied by the M3s getting past us to run in supps.
By the same token, whacking road convoys to keep the field objects down is also hardly worth the time involved. For giggles, I took a Wirbel to shoot up the trucks. Wiped out four entire convoys over however bloody long for the princely total of 2.81 perks.
I've mentioned elsewhere my primeval need to strafe trains, we've been hankering for "destructible" bridges forever, anything to give jabos a worthwhile role in the same way as giving the heavies a worthwhile role in bombing strats.
I guess what I'm saying is, it's not just the strats alone which are worth considering, but the field-level elements as well, and (he said in his "make it so" Captain Picard voice) maps which make best use of all the supply elements.
ah wants mah roads an trucks an bridges an trainz an barges an shippin convoys an C47s like dey used to haz in AW.
Is that really too much to ask?
+1 big time! :aok
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As part of the "how can existing maps make use of changed strat rules", perhaps the amount of buildings which need to be destroyed to get the white flag at town could be at least partly dependent on whether the field's supply routes were open or cut.
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A roughly estimated comparison of effort in attacking and resupplying strats:
Premise: Strats are at 100%, attacker going to kill off the city and the ammo factory.
Assuming 2h total flight time for every sortie (I could present you detailed mission profiles, but 2h is a good approximation for this purpose) it would take that many "perfect" sorties (no wasted bombs, absolute coordination between palyer, no losses to AAA or enemy fighters):
B-29 - 3 sorties - 6 manhours
B-17 - 7 sorties - 14 manhours
Lancaster - 5 sorties - 15 manhours
While the B-29 assumption is quite realistic when only one or two very good buff pilots are doing it (I did it myself a lot of times), it's highly unrealistic for the 17 or Lancaster, which are going to have much greater losses and (with more players needed) a lot of coordination issues. For them we could easily triple the effort needed, which still would be on the optimistic side.
So in the end, it takes anywhere between 6 and 50 manhours to kill city and the ammo factory (side note: additional factories come at a huge discount, as the city stays down for 6h)
In contrast to that, assuming it takes between 5 and 8 C-47 sorties to fully restore the factory, we come to just over 1(!) manhour of work for the defending side to redeem the strat raiders work of 6-50 manhours.
(By the way, it takes the same 5-8 C-47/M3 sorties to restore ords on a base, for which the standard suicide porker was investing only 10-15 minutes!)
So bombing the strats, with it's already only subtle effect on the arena, is finally made totally futile by that, comparable only to HQ raids. And it's not even worthwhile in terms of perks or score compared to town center milking....
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^ this.
Excellent post.
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Excellent post.
With a glaring math error - 5 Lanc sorties á 2h equal 10h total, not 15 :o
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After bringing the city center down to 36%, I launched a ltv to hang around and see what happened.
I did notice the city came from 36% to 100% in less than 2 hours after taking 30 minutes to bring it down.
There should be some reward for the side who is resupplying thier strats but it seems that one C47 load is almost the same value as an entire train.
Maybe a happier medium can be found.
I want to both apologize to DropEm and commend him on his honorable way of dealing with me PM'ing him that I thought someone had told him where our cv was when it was just pure chance he did a AFK keyboard climb that beelined our CV as it approached the city complex. The commendation is for not spoiling our testing by alerting his countrymen of the CV once he realized how much work was being put in to our finding out how the strats are working.
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After bringing the city center down to 36%, I launched a ltv to hang around and see what happened.
I did notice the city came from 36% to 100% in less than 2 hours after taking 30 minutes to bring it down.
I hope you had film running?
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I'm testing it in EW right now, and apparently I am not able to resupply the city - as it should be and always had been.
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I will check the films.
I got disco'd in the ltv by a lightning strike near the house so I pulled cell phone battery, restarted the computer, logged into the main arena, and was put back into the ltv. Thank you hitech.
after viewing them, the films were useless for what we are trying to find out.
I wouldn't mind hearing from "wolfe" who was another pilot resupplying the strats and find out how many drops he made.
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(...)
So in the end, it takes anywhere between 6 and 50 manhours to kill city and the ammo factory (side note: additional factories come at a huge discount, as the city stays down for 6h)
In contrast to that, assuming it takes between 5 and 8 C-47 sorties to fully restore the factory, we come to just over 1(!) manhour of work for the defending side to redeem the strat raiders work of 6-50 manhours.
(...)
I want to add that one of the main problems with resupplying facories is that each set of supplies is not a finite amount of material. It's essentially buying time. It takes repairs every destroyed item in a radius at the same rate, no matter how many there are. Regardless if the factory has been bombed to 95% or down to 20% in a single raid, it takes the same number of loads to fix it.
That's what makes it so terribly disporoportional in relation to bombing the factories, as laid out in my earlier post.
I also just resupplied a factory myself. Each goon flight took me less than 5 minutes. Compared to the time the enemy had to invest, the factory was back up in a blink of an eye.
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See rule #4
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See rule #4
I love seeing this!
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Resupplying factories
AAA was 51% city 87% first 2 drops, no change 3rd drop AAA 100%
AAA 88% city 84% first 2 drops no change 3rd drop AAA 100%
AAA 80% city 80% first 2 drops no change 3rd drop AAA 100%
Training 93% city 92 1st drop nochange 2nd drop Training 100%
Refinery 82% city 92% 1st drop no change 2nd not made, Icepak said train brought it to 100%
What order does train supply the factories ?
How often do they run ?
Why doesn't the % change with each drop ?
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See rule #4
:)
:salute HiTech :rock
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Why doesn't the % change with each drop ?
Because of what i wrote in my last post :P
Each set of supplies that reaches the factory, regardless if by auto resupply train or field cargo dropped by players, is reducing the downtime of items in a certain radius. So the amount of cargo it takes to bring the factory back up depends on how long it has been down, and how much supplies the trains are bringing in.
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I just was able to get some reliable numbers.
An enemy Lancaster dropped our refinery from 57 to 26%. I immediately started my resupply runs, and was the only player doing so.
It took me 6 loads to fully restore the damage inflicted within 36 minutes. The Knight City was at 81%, which means that without my resupply it would have taken about 90 minutes until the refinery would have been back at 100%.
I got a total of 61 perks for that 36 minutes of no risk flying. IMHO that's almost ridiculous if you think how much actual 'combat' flying it otherwise would take to get that many bomber perks :uhoh
And with that knowledge, I will stop my strat runs, for they are nothing but easy perk generators for the other side. Stuff is working as advertised, but that's still a problem. ;)
Back to waiting for the next evolution of the strat system :old:
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It seems the factories and city downtimes are working fine if there is no pilot intervention with supplying.
It also seems that a single c47 supply drop is nearly equal to an entire train's worth of supplies.
Lots of questions are answered.
I did not track how low strat level affected the individual field's assets like guns, dar, troops......and whether strat and city level has any affect on HQ downtimes.
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On the upside, I haven't seen that many players attacking the strats in years like I did see today. That may indicate that there is indeed some kind of interest in bombing runs apart from killing hangars or milking 10 random town centers. Let's hope we can keep this going after a future update of the strat system.
I even stopped resupplying the strats, for I didn't want to discourage the strat raiders too much (not after earning 240 perks though....)
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(not after earning 240 perks though....)
LOL Nice.
I personally would like to see the downtime doubled, the amount of supplies needed to fix it doubled, and the perks cut in half. There really isn't much incentive to invest in a strat run, other than Damage in lights, or perks (which really isn't that much). There also isn't really THAT much of an impact on the game. So it drops ack a bit longer.
With all it takes to effectively damage the "city" so that it makes a long term impact on that country, the length of time you get out of it is kinda silly. I dropped the HQ solo one time and didn't get 2 sectors away before a few goons had it back up. Really? You can restore a HQ of a country in 20 min with a handful of supply drops? HQ should have a minimum down time. Then on top of that a supply requirement to restore. It doesn't seem reasonable that 5 goons can circle an HQ as it's dropped, then throw out sups and it gets restored.
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I wonder if city downtime has an effect on HQ downtime (as far as supply trains) or whether it is standalone?
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I wonder if city downtime has an effect on HQ downtime (as far as supply trains) or whether it is standalone?
HQ is standalone.
But I haven't seen a HQ down for the full time only once or twice, even 30 minutes of no dar is very rare. The no HQ effect is as strong as the other strats effect is weak on gameplay, so that there is rarely a lack of players rushing to resupply it.
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This matters because we look for more. Something that imagination and inventiveness can grasp. And it rubs up against the new folks and others who want to have a romping good time. I see no solution. And I yearn for imagination and inventiveness.
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I forgot to mention aircraft parked on the ground, like we used to haz in WB.
(not vulching)
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One thing that might interest more bomber pilots in hitting the strats is to increase their points value.
Perhaps a hierarchy of target values *, something like this:
City Building - 100
Factory Building - 100
Hangar - 70
Ord Bunker - 15
Radar - 15
Supplies - 15
Fuel - 15
Gun - 5
Town Building - 5
* These numbers are only meant to compare values with each other, not their actual point value in game.
Edit - adjusted small field objects down a bit. By de-valuing the town centers (though a high hit% is still worthwhile) and sweetening the deal on the strats, bomber pilots would be more inclined to take them out.
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LOL Nice.
I personally would like to see the downtime doubled, the amount of supplies needed to fix it doubled, and the perks cut in half. There really isn't much incentive to invest in a strat run, other than Damage in lights, or perks (which really isn't that much). There also isn't really THAT much of an impact on the game. So it drops ack a bit longer.
With all it takes to effectively damage the "city" so that it makes a long term impact on that country, the length of time you get out of it is kinda silly. I dropped the HQ solo one time and didn't get 2 sectors away before a few goons had it back up. Really? You can restore a HQ of a country in 20 min with a handful of supply drops? HQ should have a minimum down time. Then on top of that a supply requirement to restore. It doesn't seem reasonable that 5 goons can circle an HQ as it's dropped, then throw out sups and it gets restored.
The downtime sounds like it's working like it should now.
You should NOT be able to resupply those factories, but if it's a game play concession, the I will agree and if anything (especially if it's taking so FEW runs to the factories to bring em back up) TRIPLE the amount of supplies needed to fix it.
I fully agree with you on cutting the rewards for resupplying the factories in half with the tripling of the amount to fix.
I also agree with you about the HQ. A minimum down time would make flying all the way to an HQ and dealing with 163's would make it a little bit more worth hitting it. I've seen an HQ restored within 8 minutes of it going down, so a minimum down time could be at 15 minutes? If it is felt that this is too heavy handed, then 10 minutes?
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If supplies are resupplying all the strats at the same time (which is what 18 perks a run looks like), just make the supplies 1/8 as effective at strats.
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If supplies are resupplying all the strats at the same time (which is what 18 perks a run looks like)
They aren't. There are quite a lot of objects in each factory (IIRC almost 80 in the ammo factory alone), which is enough to bring the resupply perk gains to such high levels.
In comparison, a hard hit small airbase usually has maybe 2 ammo bunkers, the dar and a handfull of auto acks that are being resupplied at each run.
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After a relaxed summer evening on the balcony, I present:
My vision of a stopgap measure which could work until the announced big overhaul is finished. It is based on ideas of Hitech and several players over the last months with little or none original thoughts of myself: :)
I propose the following
City
- The City no longer resupplies factories. Instead it is influencing the town building downtimes. At City 100%, the buildings stay down for 30 minutes, at 0%, the town building downtime is increased to 60 minutes.
- The City downtime is reduced from a current 6h to 3h (to compensate for the higher effect it now has on game and it's increased attractivity as a target)
- It's still not resupplyiable by players.
Factories
- Factories will continue to work as before, as resupply centers for the field items
- Factory downtime set to a fixed 90 minutes
- No longer able to be resupplied by players
Strat Complex
- The whole strat complex will not evacuate any longer. This coiuld make for interesting, long battles, as the defender has very much of an interest of keeping the attacker at bay, while the latter one may see the enemy strat complex as a goel he is pushing his captures for, instead of the old grab random bases here and there"
None of these measures take any additional artworks, no objects have to be added. It's 'merely' a change of various settings, though of course I don't have a good idea of how difficult that is to code.
Discuss :cheers:
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Lusche,
What is the direct effect if any if you were to sit next to the road in a tank and kill the supply convoys as they pass on their way to the base?
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Lusche,
What is the direct effect if any if you were to sit next to the road in a tank and kill the supply convoys as they pass on their way to the base?
You prevent auto resupply and if you keep on doing it, the downtime of the items destroyed on that base is extended to the maximum (2h).
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Thanks
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Lusche thats a cool post. I'd agree with the city/town idea very much so. Why can't the city % also effect the bounceback for the strats as well? It would seem logical that the (digital) city workers would rebuild those facilities. I'm not to sure about the no resupply part. That's a realistic part of the strats/city but I honestly don't think the current supply requirement to restore 100% is legit.
If I drop city to 10% and someone drops one crate does it increase it by 13% for example or does it only come up when the full "need" has been met??
EDIT
At City 100%, the buildings stay down for 30 minutes and strats for 75 minutes, at 0%, the town building downtime is increased to 60 minutes, strats to 150 minutes.
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I like the idea of your suggested setup Lusche. Player resupply is a boring activity if there is little chance of the enemy intercepting you, so why have it in the game? I'd like to see the score increase applied to bombing the strats as well.
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After a relaxed summer evening on the balcony, I present:
My vision of a stopgap measure which could work until the announced big overhaul is finished. It is based on ideas of Hitech and several players over the last months with little or none original thoughts of myself: :)
I propose the following
City
- The City no longer resupplies factories. Instead it is influencing the town building downtimes. At City 100%, the buildings stay down for 30 minutes, at 0%, the town building downtime is increased to 60 minutes.
- The City downtime is reduced from a current 6h to 3h (to compensate for the higher effect it now has on game and it's increased attractivity as a target)
- It's still not resupplyiable by players.
Factories
- Factories will continue to work as before, as resupply centers for the field items
- Factory downtime set to a fixed 90 minutes
- No longer able to be resupplied by players
Strat Complex
- The whole strat complex will not evacuate any longer. This coiuld make for interesting, long battles, as the defender has very much of an interest of keeping the attacker at bay, while the latter one may see the enemy strat complex as a goel he is pushing his captures for, instead of the old grab random bases here and there"
None of these measures take any additional artworks, no objects have to be added. It's 'merely' a change of various settings, though of course I don't have a good idea of how difficult that is to code.
Discuss :cheers:
Make it 90 minutes for town down time if HQ is dropped to promote longer defensive fighting to keep a town and make the HQ bombing run more meaningful.
Strats should not move. That seems strange and completely unrealistic.
Provide GV spawns into the strats from one vbase for each of the two enemy countries.
:cheers:
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Making a host change today. It should be active around mid afternoon today.
Currently there is one host variable PlayerResuplyTime that is set to 30 minutes. I.E. each supply drop reduces down time by 30 minutes in a 1 mile radius.
I am adding a new variable (it will be active but will not show in you variable window until a new client is released) PlayerResuplyFactoryTime and will be set to 4 minutes to start with.
The PlayerResuplyTime will effect objects at the fields. The new variable will be used for supply drops to factories and HQ.
HiTech
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Sounds like a good way to encourage more people to do supply runs, but how are perks dished out with the change?
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Making a host change today. It should be active around mid afternoon today.
Currently there is one host variable PlayerResuplyTime that is set to 30 minutes. I.E. each supply drop reduces down time by 30 minutes in a 1 mile radius.
I am adding a new variable (it will be active but will not show in you variable window until a new client is released) PlayerResuplyFactoryTime and will be set to 4 minutes to start with.
The PlayerResuplyTime will effect objects at the fields. The new variable will be used for supply drops to factories and HQ.
HiTech
This illustrates why I think this is the best game in the world.
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I am adding a new variable (it will be active but will not show in you variable window until a new client is released) PlayerResuplyFactoryTime and will be set to 4 minutes to start with.
That will enormously increase the effort necessary to get the factories back on their feet. Great! :banana:
I can only hope the perk gain for ech supply run will be cut down by the same rate, else it would quickly end up being the most abused feature of AH :uhoh
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Sounds Great :aok
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I guess now I should request that 38s be able to carry supps. :D
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If you do it for the 38, you would have to allow it for all bombers........ :D
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Let's get the He-111 added. It did both. :D
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Making a host change today. It should be active around mid afternoon today.
Currently there is one host variable PlayerResuplyTime that is set to 30 minutes. I.E. each supply drop reduces down time by 30 minutes in a 1 mile radius.
I am adding a new variable (it will be active but will not show in you variable window until a new client is released) PlayerResuplyFactoryTime and will be set to 4 minutes to start with.
The PlayerResuplyTime will effect objects at the fields. The new variable will be used for supply drops to factories and HQ.
HiTech
PlayerResuplyTime - Reduces down time by 30min each drop.
Area = 1mile Radius
Down time un-resupplied = ?
PlayerResuplyFactoryTime - Reduces down time by 4 min each drop.
Area = ?
Down time un-resupplied = ?
What is the area and total downtime affected with PlayerResuplyFactoryTime?
Does this new variable mean how strats relate to the game are about to be redefined making them a much more interactive part of winning the war rather than the current long range seemingly no effect on game play target for bombers?
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Does this new variable mean how strats relate to the game are about to be redefined making them a much more interactive part of winning the war rather than the current long range seemingly no effect on game play target for bombers?
No. It doesn't change the current strats mechanism fundamentally. It just enables HT to make player resupply runs much less effective on factories while not messing with their effect on base resupply runs.
At city=0%, a factory stays down for 180 minutes (should be about 60minutes with City fully up), with each player supply flight now taking only 4 minutes from that.
But it's still the old City->Factory->Base Item supply chain.
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Sounds Great :aok
How would you know? You haven't a clue as to what Hitech said now do you?
:devil
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How would you know? You haven't a clue as to what Hitech said now do you?
:devil
Some people speak more then 1 language :)
While others are not fluent in hiteceeez
HiTech
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Some people speak more then 1 language :)
While others are not fluent in hiteceeez
HiTech
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Lusche,
Does this new variable mean how strats relate to the game are about to be redefined making them a much more interactive part of winning the war rather than the current long range seemingly no effect on game play target for bombers?
Do you work for HTC or can tell me Wednesday's 6 Super Lotto Plus numbers by any chance? I've noticed absolutes in hiteceez are only when he pronounces one. Otherwise, how you present your 20 questions is part of the process.
Bigger than a breadbox, smaller than a Quazar, or is this a prepatory step to another change and how energetic.
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I suggest the use of simple English if you are really looking for answers from me in the future.
Thank you.
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Does this new variable mean how strats relate to the game[/i] are about to be redefined making them a much more interactive part of winning the war rather than the current long range seemingly no effect on game play target for bombers?
Do you work for HTC or can tell me Wednesday's 6 Super Lotto Plus numbers by any chance? I've noticed absolutes in hiteceez are only when he pronounces one. Otherwise, how you present your 20 questions is part of the process.
Bigger than a breadbox, smaller than a Quazar, or is this a prepatory step to another change and how energetic.
this reads like it was originally written in japanese, then google-translated into english.
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Lusche I can understand english not being your first language but, this is a rather inversed self depreciation. Do you really want to be spoken to in terms less than you present yourself in this community? Holmes sorry you need to defend Lusche. Kind of cliche in a Jr. High locker room flavor. He is a grown man.
This was a very simple question. The new paramenter creates a specific and new function related to strat. Hitech recently made mention he was still concerned about strat. He has also recently mentioned a trend that players are unwilling to put effort into functions that are too complicated.
In that light:
Does this new variable mean how strats relate to the game are about to be redefined making them a much more interactive part of winning the war rather than the current long range seemingly no effect on game play target for bombers?
By your responce Lusche you are not an HTC employe, and Holmes, I guess has a thing for you by his defence of your virtue.
Oh Holmes, I used to live on Hokkaido island in the city of Wakkanai. But, english is my first language. I learned enough japanese to catch the bus, purchase items in the local market, and earn a menkyo in kenjutsu. Granted I probably should have made two sentences from the one question. I was in a hurry and didn't think my audience would have such trouble with the english language and logic flow. Other than those interested in locker room level puerilisms.
Just for you Holmes since I have the time and you wanted to be puerile about it......
Does this new variable mean how strats relate to the game are about to be redefined? Thus making them a much more interactive part of winning the war rather than the current long range seemingly "no effect on game play" target for bombers?
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This was a very simple question.
Simple questions should be asked that way. I'm just tired to decipher all that stuff. Yes, English is my second language, and that's why I often do not know if some of your 'inserts' do really have a meaning I just do not get or if they are just some random stuff to bloat the word count.
Does this new variable mean how strats relate to the game are about to be redefined making them a much more interactive part of winning the war rather than the current long range seemingly no effect on game play target for bombers?
I already answered that above. This variable is just fixing the huge strats resupply problem we discovered.
That HT himself has further plans is obvious if you followed this thread as well as other strats discussions recently: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,336561.msg4428465.html#msg4428465, where he also explains what direction the changes will probably take.
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This is a private message I sent at the beginning of may.
Quote
Hi XXXXX.
Basically we are planing on a few changes.
1st I have come to the conclusion that more complex = less use.
With that in mind we are planing on removing the city component in the chain.
Are current thinking is.
Bombing cities will effect town down times. The cities will be located where they are now.
Factories will be down for 2 or more hours and the city will no longer effect them and they effect the same things as they used to.
Factories will be located many different places in the terrain, and can be over run.
I have not found a use for trains yet, but we may just replace some truck convoys to large fields with trains.
HiTech
Wow! :O
That needs repeating in this thread and sounds exciting. More trains, more factories (which can be overrun), etc... :banana:
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Darn it! Simple nouns and active verbs and call it a day. Snail you're doing great. Buster, omit needless words.
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Currently there is one host variable PlayerResuplyTime that is set to 30 minutes. I.E. each supply drop reduces down time by 30 minutes in a 1 mile radius.
I am adding a new variable (it will be active but will not show in you variable window until a new client is released) PlayerResuplyFactoryTime and will be set to 4 minutes to start with.
The PlayerResuplyTime will effect objects at the fields. The new variable will be used for supply drops to factories and HQ.
It turns out that the reduced resupply efficiency has the most interesting effect when it comes to HQ. If you still wanna get it back in a few minutes, you are going to lead a lot more people resupplying, which can put a strain on that country's operations.
I like it. :)
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It turns out that the reduced resupply efficiency has the most interesting effect when it comes to HQ. If you still wanna get it back in a few minutes, you are going to lead a lot more people resupplying, which can put a strain on that country's operations.
I like it. :)
Well, I kept resupping the city and it kept saying 6 or 8 buildings resupped and 4 minutes down time reduced, but the pct down for the city stayed at 22%... I expected it to increase. Felt like I was making no progress after 4 or 5 sup runs. :frown:
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Translated haha :rofl