Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DrBone1 on September 01, 2012, 11:20:11 AM
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Do you feel as though you learn more from fighting players of more experience or fighting players of equal skill ?
Was not sure where to post this move it if need be skuzzy. :angel:
Apologies If I may seem stupid to post this but I find it an interesting Topic.
Discuss. :salute
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:)
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Depends on how much is passed along.
If you fight someone better than you, but there's no communication or dialogue about the what, why, how, it's no better than fighting the AI.
Presuming that the "sessions" are friendly and educational, both have their place. Fight a better player to get better, fight a similar player to refine your betterment.
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What Shane said :aok
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you wont "learn" anything from fighting against an equal player.....
the only way to get better is to fight someone better.....not just once but over and over, I also think they don't need to tell you anything if you have the drive to get better...yes it will help, but not necessary for improvement.
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In an instructional setting, like the TA then more will be learned fighting a more experienced player. In the MA or absent any conversation then I think more is learned by fighting someone close to your skill level because the fight is more likely to last longer and that is how you improve, practice, experience, and stick time.
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I've always balanced DA, MA, Scenarios and FSOs - When I was unbeatable in the DA - I couldn't fly crap for MA - when I was really good MA I sucked in DA.
Finally balanced it out and Split even across the board, I don't lean on any one aircraft, or fighting style, I can fly at 20k or 2k- practicing daily to improve yourself, improves your game.
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fight midders and find out :bolt:
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In an instructional setting, like the TA then more will be learned fighting a more experienced player. In the MA or absent any conversation then I think more is learned by fighting someone close to your skill level because the fight is more likely to last longer and that is how you improve, practice, experience, and stick time.
does not make sense.....if you are fighting against someone same level, they cant teach you anything....I don't care how long the fight lasts, you wont "learn" a thing from it....unless you are a complete noob and so are they...then maybe you will get more of a hang of it.(controlling the plane that is)...but that is all...you wont become a better fighter...in any way shape or form.
just like everything in this world whether it be chess or cribbage....or any strategic game/sport/educational activity.....you need to play against better players to get better......flying against someone of equal skill for ten hours is not gonna make a bit of difference......fighting against a better stick for an hour will give you huge insights....especially if you, like I said, have that urge to get better.
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The key to learning and retaining any knowledge is repetition. While it is true you will gain more insight from someone of higher skill, it is hard to put that into practice if they are shooting you down quicker than you can put it into practice.(run on sentence maybe??..... :D) With a player of equal skill, you can apply those insights over longer periods of time. IMO :salute
NOT
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does not make sense.....if you are fighting against someone same level, they cant teach you anything....I don't care how long the fight lasts, you wont "learn" a thing from it....unless you are a complete noob and so are they...then maybe you will get more of a hang of it.(controlling the plane that is)...but that is all...you wont become a better fighter...in any way shape or form.
just like everything in this world whether it be chess or cribbage....or any strategic game/sport/educational activity.....you need to play against better players to get better......flying against someone of equal skill for ten hours is not gonna make a bit of difference......fighting against a better stick for an hour will give you huge insights....especially if you, like I said, have that urge to get better.
This is partially true, but you can definitely learn things from players close to you skill level. This is especially true when you are fighting in different planes. Not everyone has the same skillset. I have incorporated moves into my skill set that players have used against me in the past, even if they ended up losing the fight. Just because you win doesn't mean you played it perfectly, or they played it totally wrong. There is always room for improvement. I have had fights where someone got the upper hand on me initially because of a great move they pulled, and then I eventually turned it around on them and won. Just because I won, it doesn't mean I ignore that opening move they pulled on me. I want to find out why they were able to do that to me. In that sense, you can even learn from players that are technically not as good as you. You can learn from anyone if you pay attention. Overall, I believe the fastest way to learn is to have someone better than you fight you, and then explain how they beat you. That doesn't mean you cant learn from equal or even inferior players.
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does not make sense.....if you are fighting against someone same level, they cant teach you anything....I don't care how long the fight lasts, you wont "learn" a thing from it....unless you are a complete noob and so are they...then maybe you will get more of a hang of it.(controlling the plane that is)...but that is all...you wont become a better fighter...in any way shape or form.
Same level is a broad brush. I may consider another player at an equal level to me but they may be better in some aspects or think a bit outside of the box in some situations. In which case, fighting against them can very well teach me something. For example I fought against some K4 sticks in this game which are held in very high requard, but I merged against them in ways they weren't used to dealing with, and I sometimes got the first tater hit off. So in essence they may have learned something from my different merge, albeit I don't consider myself as good as a total K4 sticks as they are. Same with me teaching F4U's, I've had students that tried different things I haven't thought of, that worked. Even though I don't consider this player as the same level as me, I still learned something from them and added it to my list of tricks.
:salute
BigRat
BigR beat me to a lot of the same points as I was typing this lol :aok
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The key to learning and retaining any knowledge is repetition. While it is true you will gain more insight from someone of higher skill, it is hard to put that into practice if they are shooting you down quicker than you can put it into practice.(run on sentence maybe??..... :D) With a player of equal skill, you can apply those insights over longer periods of time. IMO :salute
NOT
no........... the key to learning is to have someone teach/show/apply it to you...then you do it over and over to get good at it....ie Practice what you learned from the better stick.....
I guess I should say IMO :rofl
Big& BigR :D
he asked about fighting against equal or better....which teaches you more.....
the answer is simple..... :neener:
although the "drive"or "urge" I was talking about....to get better is what you both touched on.... you both make good points...
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I'm with ink on this. I've learned a lot more from dying hundreds of times against someone better than me, figuring out why I died, and improving myself so I don't make the same mistake twice.
Though if you fight someone of equal skills, you should at least be able to learn the basic limits of the aircraft you're flying; how fast it can go, how well it climbs, where it's stall speed is, ect. Then you can slowly learn to push the limits of that aircraft by fighting someone better than you.
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Practise and Experience is the most important thing.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl My finger smells like Boogers! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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There is probably a curve... a sweet spot... where your opponent is up to X better than you, where you will learn the most.
There is probably a point where an opponent so handily outclasses you, uses techniques so advanced that you cannot follow them as you are missing the foundational building blocks, that the law of diminishing returns sets in.
There is a reason you don't start learning math by taking Linear Algebra.
(However, I think going up against even someone slightly better than you is better than going up against someone equally skilled)
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Practise and Experience is the most important thing.
the drive/urge to get better is the most important thing to getting better.
practice is next......but if you practice 200 hrs a month something that is not "good" well you'll be great at being "not good"
experience...ehh....I have easily killed guys that have far more experience then I.
now if we talk about what is the most important part of being a straight up killer.....that is AIM.
AIM/practice/ACM/practice/timing/practice/SA/practice....
my order of importance to becoming a top stick in AH
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Determination is expected. Will to Win and all that :D
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Still have yet to hear from Grizz,BatFink,Suns and Krup keep the info coming guys. :aok :salute
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paraphrasing here
...any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from magic.
ya know?
Stab
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The answer is both. It's not an either/or kind of thing.
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The answer is both. It's not an either/or kind of thing.
:headscratch:
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What gives you that answer Dead Man Flying?
Or I should have said which will you gain the most from. :salute
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Fight a better player to get better, fight a similar player to refine your betterment.
I Agree with this.
ty for the info Shane. :salute Sir!
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What gives you that answer Dead Man Flying?
Or I should have said which will you gain the most from. :salute
My dueling experience was informed by fighting players better than myself and tons of duels against people of roughly equal skill. I found both useful in different ways. Duels against cohorts like Jase and Nath were fun and informative because they allowed for more improvisation and experimentation. Sometimes you discover something in the course of those fights that elevates both of your games to a new level.
Duels against better players were more helpful for pushing me past skill plateaus. I recall fighting Vap (of the Musketeers) some 16 years ago, and in the course of caving my face in fight after fight after fight, I realized that he was doing something I'd never considered before... using the vertical. Big eye opener there, and that opened up the whole ACM game book to me.
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Determination is expected. Will to Win and all that :D
you know as well as I that is not a high priority in the MA :confused:
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Do you feel as though you learn more from fighting players of more experience or fighting players of equal skill ?
Was not sure where to post this move it if need be skuzzy. :angel:
Apologies If I may seem stupid to post this but I find it an interesting Topic.
Discuss. :salute
Both.
Too many variables not to learn in both situations. Unless we're all in the same plane with the same load out, learning happens all the time. If I take on Ink in a Ki-84 and I'm in a 38G, odds are pretty good unless I get a lucky shot, I'm going to get clobbered. Would that be the same if I was in a Ki or he was in a 38G? I don't know. It doesn't matter to me though as in the end the challenge is getting more out of my bird of choice.
It also comes down to how you define a better player. A better player could be defined as one who makes sure he uses all the tactical advantages and uses a bird to exploit that. Or it could be a guy who can plow into a crowd in a lesser bird and come out the other side alive.
Everyone has their own scale of getting better too whether it be score, K/D, or just finding out something they didn't know the last time they fought someone.
In the end taking em all on is the way to go :)
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I sem to plateau for ages, then improve a touch, and then fall back into old techniques. I rarely land kills because I a.) have bad SA, and b.) keep getting stuck into fights when I should leave.
I wonder whether my problem is that I am not bright enough to translate the acm I know and read about all the time, with what I am doing on game. I am told that I do certain manouvres , but I do them because they feel right, rather than a cognitive process where I am selecting counter moves at the right time. Dont know whether that is good or bad .Or whether I am destined to be permanently mediocre
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Depends on the skill levels. If the less skilled guy is going down in the first few seconds each time he won't have time to learn much or anything.
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Depends on the skill levels. If the less skilled guy is going down in the first few seconds each time he won't have time to learn much or anything.
I'm not convinced of this, I DA a number of people who are quite a bit better than myself(not hard to do :lol) and when we started out I would inevitably be down within a few turns. However the number of turns it took before I was shot down started to increase and the fights went from lasting a few turns to a few minutes. I rarely pass up the chance to DA anyone and that has helped quite a bit, now SA is a whole different story. :aok
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My dueling experience was informed by fighting players better than myself and tons of duels against people of roughly equal skill. I found both useful in different ways. Duels against cohorts like Jase and Nath were fun and informative because they allowed for more improvisation and experimentation. Sometimes you discover something in the course of those fights that elevates both of your games to a new level.
Duels against better players were more helpful for pushing me past skill plateaus. I recall fighting Vap (of the Musketeers) some 16 years ago, and in the course of caving my face in fight after fight after fight, I realized that he was doing something I'd never considered before... using the vertical. Big eye opener there, and that opened up the whole ACM game book to me.
ty for sharing. :salute
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I was wondering DrBone: do you think you are still learning?
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I got alot better when I duelled with members of the Few, then Redbull, Dr. B and the other members of TG on a regular basis, so I guess practicing with better sticks does make you better...:old:...now I don't get the practice at all...and I dont get on too much..and I have slipped back into suckage..... :cry
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Problem with dueling is you only learn one small aspect of the game. Main Arena does not play fair, dog fighting is a 3 dimensional. Then again you can climb 20k above everyone else and still suck, this is where DA comes in to learn your basic roots.
My fun has always been pick 2 aircrafts per tour (I rotate aircraft every tour) - I often joke with bone "Pick a plane for me". When you learn the basic/advanced aspects of each aircraft you understand the game far better.
Everyone has their "Rides" I often joked I never had a single one but actually looking back at a year of flying I seem to stick with the Ki-84 - decent Eny, decent plane, underrated. I often will pair it with something else - i.e a Pony or P-38 so I can understand the different styles of flying.
I don't think Dueling ever helped me, or simply flying the MA - Getting involved with FSO, Scenarios, Snapshots, Main Arena and DA is what formed me.
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Fighting against way better pilots opened my eyes, just like "whoa, never even guessed that its possible". Then flying against just a bit better ones helped a lot in perfecting the new moves.
Thank You for those who spent their time with me, helping the little newbie in improving.
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Fighting against way better pilots opened my eyes, just like "whoa, never even guessed that its possible". Then flying against just a bit better ones helped a lot in perfecting the new moves.
Thank You for those who spent their time with me, helping the little newbie in improving.
Newbie my ass, your one of the better 109 drivers I know of.
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Newbie my ass, your the best 109G6 drivers I know of.
:aok fixed
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I'm better than Deb! :noid
Ok, maybe when he's drunk and I get him angry a little. :lol :D
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lol enough, i could list 30+ people who would school me in my beloved ride, any day of the week.
Cant wait to get a working account and face them :aok
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I only asked this question because in my opinion fighting a player of equal skill will increase my chances of realizing what I did wrong in the first place whilst fighting a player WAY above me (Kazaa) Would not show me anything considering the fact I would only last 2 turns.
A little bit down the road fighting Grizz,Joachim,DrSpek,Suns,Krup,and Batfink of equal skill made me that much better to the point I could go even with Kazaa.
Just wanted other expert opinions on the matter.
I do find myself sometimes wondering if I have gained anymore experience through out my time but I do not seem to be able to pass the barrier of a even higher experience.
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I only asked this question because in my opinion fighting a player of equal skill will increase my chances of realizing what I did wrong in the first place whilst fighting a player WAY above me (Kazaa) Would not show me anything considering the fact I would only last 2 turns.
A little bit down the road fighting Grizz,Joachim,DrSpek,Suns,Krup,and Batfink of equal skill made me that much better to the point I could go even with Kazaa.
Just wanted other expert opinions on the matter.
I was wondering DrBone: do you think you are still learning?
I do find myself sometimes wondering if I have gained anymore experience through out my time but I do not seem to be able to pass the barrier of a even higher experience.
That came out totally wrong meant to put the quote in the above post. :bhead :bhead
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My 2 cents: If you die in the first 30 seconds, how much have you learned? It is often much more of a learning experience to have a long fight with an equal or lesser, but lucky, experienced fighter... :airplane: :joystick: :old:
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My 2 cents: If you die in the first 30 seconds, how much have you learned? It is often much more of a learning experience to have a long fight with an equal or lesser, but lucky, experienced fighter... :airplane: :joystick: :old:
You learn to survive in the next round for 31 seconds. And the round after that, 32 seconds, then 33, 34, 35...until you beat the other guy by figuring out his tricks.
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My 2 cents: If you die in the first 30 seconds, how much have you learned? It is often much more of a learning experience to have a long fight with an equal or lesser, but lucky, experienced fighter... :airplane: :joystick: :old:
This is my point no use in fighting somebody on a whole other level unless (stated by shane earlier) If the other guy is not helping you understand what exactly it is you are doing wrong.
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You learn to survive in the next round for 31 seconds. And the round after that, 32 seconds, then 33, 34, 35...until you beat the other guy by figuring out his tricks.
Agreed! I remember I could never win against anyone from the 80th HH's. They would always dive on me and get a kill no matter what I did, or I'd try and climb with them and watch them flip their plane around faster than I expected and I'd die. Then, after countless engagements, I finally figured out their tricks and and how to defeat them. Now I can instantly tell who is flying a P38 just by the way they initiate the fight and I know what to do to survive their first attack. Though those 80th guys still kick my butt eventually :D .
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Do you feel as though you learn more from fighting players of more experience or fighting players of equal skill ?
Apologies If I may seem stupid to post this but I find it an interesting Topic.
Discuss. :salute
Though I haven't played in a while, I always felt that the best way to learn was to fight someone whos better than you, without being so much better that he just mops the floor with you. Even better is when you record sorties, and debrief with your opponent.
But if you can't get that debrief, its still better than fighting those of equal skill, IMO. Why? Because its pushing your skills further, and you can still learn what you're doing wrong on your own, it will just take longer.
Fighting with others of equal skill doesn't do much to improve your flying. About the best you're likely to do is keep your skills sharp, and smooth out some of the new tricks you've learned.
As for SA, take out just about any fighter that doesn't pwn most of the other aircraft, and fly to the closest furball.
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I think I learn to push things more with a person of a little more skill than myself...not to much though...to much better...to the point where you don't even get to think about your next turn and your dead, no learning there(other than how to deal with your frustration)...but the guys who are enough above you to kill you but still have to do a little work to get the kill yes .... but I also feel I learn from those who are of equal skill level as being equal you can cause a stalemate in the fight and this is where you need to learn to push a little extra..change your tactic a little to push past the stalemate....during these fights you do actually have the opportunities to do these things and get away with a little error of judgement and keep trying.....thus learning yep that works or nope the plane doesn't like that
and also something Ink said..... If you have the Zen aim...you can rule....
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something Ink said..... If you have the Zen aim...you can rule....
I'm ordering mine from Amazon :D
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I'm ordering mine from Amazon :D
I've got a copy of 'Zen in the Art of Archery' in pdf if it helps Mr. D. :banana:
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This is my point no use in fighting somebody on a whole other level unless (stated by shane earlier) If the other guy is not helping you understand what exactly it is you are doing wrong.
agreeing with you... :aok
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:huh :huh :huh I can only get better! :bhead :bhead :bhead
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I've got a copy of 'Zen in the Art of Archery' in pdf if it helps Mr. D. :banana:
Hmm I wonder if I can fit a long bow onto the side of my Emil or Freidrich? :headscratch:
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You should read it Mr. D, surprisingly applicable.