Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: tuton25 on November 10, 2012, 03:57:28 PM

Title: The Co-Pilot
Post by: tuton25 on November 10, 2012, 03:57:28 PM
Why can't the Co-Pilot in a mossie or B-17 take over the plane when you get a pilot wound     
just my $0.02
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Lusche on November 10, 2012, 03:59:28 PM
Have you ever seen one in the plane?  :noid
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: tuton25 on November 10, 2012, 04:10:47 PM
yes I have
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Lusche on November 10, 2012, 04:16:35 PM
yes I have


I want to see a picture :)
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: tuton25 on November 10, 2012, 04:20:03 PM
How do I do that???
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: chaser on November 10, 2012, 04:29:59 PM
Have you ever seen one in the plane?  :noid

For that matter I've never seen the pilot of the B17  :O :bolt:
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2012, 04:32:23 PM
Planes in AH that had co-pilots:

B-17G
B-24J
B-25C
B-25H
B-26B
B-29A
C-47A
G4M1
Ju88A-4
Ki-67

Mosquitoes did not have a co-pilot.  They had a pilot and a navigator and the flight controls were not duplicated on the navigator's side of the aircraft.  Lancasters also did not have a co-pilot.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: tuton25 on November 10, 2012, 05:29:59 PM
Thats not to say the navigator couldn't take over the plane if something happened to the pilot......
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2012, 05:37:03 PM
Thats not to say the navigator couldn't take over the plane if something happened to the pilot......

Could, but not very effectively.  No rudders, limited, if any, training and holding the stick from a very awkward position with the pilot's limp body in the way.

I am aware of at least one case in which a Mosquito was flown back to England by the navigator, but the pilot recovered enough to land it as I recall.  The navigator would certainly not be performing combat maneuvers.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Fish42 on November 10, 2012, 05:43:01 PM
Lancasters also did not have a co-pilot.

No, but they had a flight engineer who could and in quite a few cases did pull wounded pilots out of the seat and take over the plane.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: B3YT on November 10, 2012, 05:54:17 PM
should he be called Otto?
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2012, 06:01:52 PM
No, but they had a flight engineer who could and in quite a few cases did pull wounded pilots out of the seat and take over the plane.
Flight Engineers were often guys who had washed out of pilot training so they had some idea of how to fly the aircraft.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Fish42 on November 10, 2012, 06:05:50 PM
Flight Engineers were often guys who had washed out of pilot training so they had some idea of how to fly the aircraft.

yep, but that did not stop them getting the kites home.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2012, 06:13:02 PM
yep, but that did not stop them getting the kites home.
Not at all.  The intention was bluntly exactly that.  If the pilot was incapacitated or killed if the flight engineer had at least basic flight training he would have a fighting chance to get the plane home.


I recall Saburo Sakai describing a return flight from a raid on Darwin in which one of the G4Ms was having a lot of trouble maintaining position in its formation.  After landing it turned out that everybody on the plane had been killed except for, IIRC, the engineer, who had no flight training, and the pilot who had been knocked out.  The engineer flew the G4M back to Rabaul and the pilot regained consciousness in time to land it.  Apparently the plane had quite an effect on the A6M pilots as they were normally so insulated from the effects of combat, but in this case he said there was blood running out of bullet holes in the fuselage and it was a charnel house inside.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Wagger on November 10, 2012, 10:56:39 PM
My father was a top turret gunner and flight engineer on B-17's.  He had some flight time for militarization.  If I can find the record he has showing it I will post it.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Ack-Ack on November 11, 2012, 12:54:27 AM
AW had an annoying co-pilot that never said a word.

ack-ack
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: FTJR on November 11, 2012, 05:19:58 AM
AW had an annoying co-pilot that never said a word.

ack-ack

Yeah I remember him, he used to just sit there and stare sullenly out the window, like his dog died, and his wife ran off with his best friend. Grumpy bugger.
Title: Re: The Co-Pilot
Post by: Tilt on November 11, 2012, 06:17:52 AM
Not at all.  The intention was bluntly exactly that.  If the pilot was incapacitated or killed if the flight engineer had at least basic flight training he would have a fighting chance to get the plane home..

"washed out" may be a bit harsh. Many late war RAF  Flight engineers had recieved basic flight training and destined to be pilots but re designated to flight engineers or BAN  training due to a surplus of bomber pilots under training by early 44.

Particularly considering the considerable RCAF influx of bomber crews in 44. Interestingly often  these crews were without flight engineers. Flight engineers required more specialist training on plane type and the RCAF crews did not know which plane type (Lanc, Halifax, etc) they were destined for whilst under training in Canada.

RAF flight engineers ( originally training to be pilots) were trained to be added to the RCAF crews.

My father being one of them............ So I may be somewhat biased.

However the flight engineers duty to act as standby by pilot was no ad hoc unofficial arrangement......... Even if he did not have sufficient rank to gain access to the Officers mess.