Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fullmetalbullet on December 10, 2012, 03:15:11 PM
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Yup i found this video when lookign up carrier aircraft videos. i may be a little late, and many of you possibly know this. but just throwing this out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVKSg3mwN8Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVKSg3mwN8Y)
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The Chinese have taken the "long view" of carrier aviation and have been preparing for years. There have been reports that they've sent young men to the US for school and specifically to join the US Navy to learn how we do carrier aviation. Most people don't know it but you don't have to be a US citizen to join the US military. After their enlistments are up they return to China and pass on our TTPs. It looks like there is probably some truth to the reports because their flight deck ops look virtually identical to ours right down to the FOD walkdowns, float coats, cranials (flight deck crew helmets), the color coding of the flight deck crew and even the hand signals.
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The Chinese design limits high operational tempo in blue water ops. Without a steam powered cat for launching, they are limited to one bird per launch evolution using a "ramp". This means four times as much time on-station to get their birds in the air in a rapid reaction launch or airborne interdiction tasking order due to the US having twin-steam systems for dual launches. I wouldn't want to be a ChiComm naval aviator in reaction situation, lol
The advantage is evident. They will need to produce and put to sea, four times as many CV's as the US to maintain the same amount of operationally significant power projection and they have just launched #1....guess they have to start somewhere right?
EDIT: Also notice that to tandem launch, the a/c departure points from a twin set are the same. That means its impossible for them to dual launch/single recover simultaneously. We can twin launch/single recover, 24/7.
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The Chinese have taken the "long view" of carrier aviation and have been preparing for years. There have been reports that they've sent young men to the US for school and specifically to join the US Navy to learn how we do carrier aviation. Most people don't know it but you don't have to be a US citizen to join the US military. After their enlistments are up they return to China and pass on our TTPs. It looks like there is probably some truth to the reports because their flight deck ops look virtually identical to ours right down to the FOD walkdowns, float coats, cranials (flight deck crew helmets), the color coding of the flight deck crew and even the hand signals.
Mace...those FOD walk downs have been onboard French, US, and Brit CV's since the jet age. If they did have ChiComm naval escapees, they didnt teach their handlers much....flight deck design is so anacronistic its almost silly. I guess the Navy didn't let them in the cat room, lol
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The Chinese design limits high operational tempo in blue water ops. Without a steam powered cat for launching, they are limited to one bird per launch evolution using a "ramp". This means four times as much time on-station to get their birds in the air in a rapid reaction luanch or airborne interdiction tasking order due to the US having twin-steam systems for dual launches. I wouldn't want to be a ChiComm naval aviator in reaction situation, lol
The advantage is evident. They will need to produce and put to sea, four times as many CV's as the US to maintain the same amount of operationally significant power projection and they have just launched #1....guess they have to start somewhere right?
As I understand it this first carrier is just that thier stepping stone. I am sure they will copy the Nimitz at somepoint.
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China lands Stolen Design Russian jet on Russian Carrier
Fixed for ya
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As I understand it this first carrier is just that thier stepping stone. I am sure they will copy the Nimitz at somepoint.
Probably but it doesn't seem to fit their operational desires. Why start with this monstrosity when you could do it more effectively and more efficiently....and here's the reason (they could apparently steal our stealth plans but the CV designs must not have fit on one flash memory drive, lol):
They bought this CV from the Russians and refit it....from the Washington Post (11-28-12):
"But China’s announcement on Sunday of landings on its first operational carrier the Liaoning – a reconditioned Soviet era vessel purchased from Ukraine ostensibly for use as a casino — will unnerve some of its already jumpy neighbours.
With the exception of a small force in the Indian Ocean to counter piracy, China’s entire naval focus remains on its immediate neighbourhood — the South China Sea, particularly Taiwan, and disputed waters with Japan, Vietnam and others."
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Probably but it doesn't seem to fit their operational desires. Why start with this monstrosity when you could do it more effectively and more efficiently....and here's the reason (they could apparently steal our stealth plans but the CV designs must not have fit on one flash memory drive, lol):
They bought this CV from the Russians and refit it....from the Washington Post (11-28-12):
"But China’s announcement on Sunday of landings on its first operational carrier the Liaoning – a reconditioned Soviet era vessel purchased from Ukraine ostensibly for use as a casino — will unnerve some of its already jumpy neighbours.
With the exception of a small force in the Indian Ocean to counter piracy, China’s entire naval focus remains on its immediate neighbourhood — the South China Sea, particularly Taiwan, and disputed waters with Japan, Vietnam and others."
As I mentioned, China is taking the long-view of this and are working on at least two different indigenous designs of their own (one conventional and one Nuc probably based off the Soviet Ulyanovsk). It is their good luck that they were able to purchase the Soviet Varyag at a bargain basement price. While it can't compete against a Nimitz class boat its bigger and at least as effective as any other CV in existence. Sure, their current strategy is not really "blue water" but that's changing and, according to their own writings, blue water and global power projection is their future. CVs aren't defensive weapon systems, their only purpose is power projection and that's why the Chinese are building them and what they intend to use them for.
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China has come a long way as a developing nation to land their first jet on a carrier. In March 2013 it will be 91 years since the Langley was commissioned as a united states naval carrier.
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That thing is as effective as the big French CVs? I am skeptical.
I believe India also has one of those carriers in service, though they have been operational with it for a bit if I recall. Of course nobody here is alarmed at India having a CV because, I guess, India is seen as a friendly democracy.
INS Vikrant:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2114/2127148882_26758fa938.jpg)
Seems India is building another CV of domestic design as well. Expected to enter service in 2017 to 2020.
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That thing is as effective as the big French CVs? I am skeptical.
I believe India also has one of those carriers in service, though they have been operational with it for a bit if I recall. Of course nobody here is alarmed at India having a CV because, I guess, India is seen as a friendly democracy.
INS Vikrant:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2114/2127148882_26758fa938.jpg)
Seems India is building another CV of domestic design as well. Expected to enter service in 2017 to 2020.
The Charles De Gaulle is only 41,000 tons, 860ft, and 40 aircraft compared to the Liaoning at 67,500 tons, 1,000ft, and 54 aircraft. It also only has two catapults which means its sortie rate is probably similar to the Liaoning. Granted, the De Gaulle is a nuc but the number of aircraft and smaller size are big limits. The Indians are building a 40,000 ton class CV to go along with their old Viraat (ex Hermes) that is not only ancient (launched in 1953) but comparatively tiny at 29,000 tons. Their other "big" boat would be a Kiev class boat that they're currently building but the Kiev was classified by the Soviets as a cruiser. It's nicely sized but is extremely limited in that it doesn't have a full flight deck and carries only about 30 aircraft.
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China has come a long way as a developing nation to land their first jet on a carrier. In March 2013 it will be 91 years since the Langley was commissioned as a united states naval carrier.
Ditto, and as Mace says, they're taking the long view. Recall that our first CV was a converted coal tender; our next two were built from the unfinished hulls of two battlecruisers (the BCs were to be scrapped as part of the Washington Naval Treaty). Our third fleet CV was build from the keel up as a CV. They've managed to skip steps one and two. Plus, they don't have to learn everything from scratch. They're operating 4th or 5th gen fixed wing, conventional fighters off that thing. Fifteen years from now, they may own the western Pacific. Think about this, too. US yearly interest payments to China nearly equal their current defense budget. So, our borrowing is basically funding the very same military buildup we may one day find chases us out of the Western Pacific. :confused:
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The Chinese have taken the "long view" of carrier aviation and have been preparing for years. There have been reports that they've sent young men to the US for school and specifically to join the US Navy to learn how we do carrier aviation. Most people don't know it but you don't have to be a US citizen to join the US military. After their enlistments are up they return to China and pass on our TTPs. It looks like there is probably some truth to the reports because their flight deck ops look virtually identical to ours right down to the FOD walkdowns, float coats, cranials (flight deck crew helmets), the color coding of the flight deck crew and even the hand signals.
However they could have gotten all that from watching the Discovery channel, or better yet, read a book.
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I've said it a million times and will say it again.
Pearl Harbor, 9/11, Gulf War 2, Vietnam and even the Spanish American war in the late 19th century.
Believing your enemy to be inferior to you and nothing to worry about. Is a very very bad idea.
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However they could have gotten all that from watching the Discovery channel, or better yet, read a book.
Yes, the Discovery Channel is great. You can also learn all you need to fly to the Moon and back!
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I've said it a million times and will say it again.
Pearl Harbor, 9/11, Gulf War 2, Vietnam and even the Spanish American war in the late 19th century.
Believing your enemy to be inferior to you and nothing to worry about. Is a very very bad idea.
Oh noes, we're all going to die because some guy on the AH forums doesn't give China enough credit!
Come on man.
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Yes, the Discovery Channel is great. You can also learn all you need to fly to the Moon and back!
Color coding of the flight deck crew and hand signals does not equate going to the Moon.
Or like I said, you could just read a book.
http://publicintelligence.net/u-s-navy-nuclear-carrier-vessel-flight-deck-manual/
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Fifteen years from now, they may own the western Pacific.
LOL. You guys (USA) need to wake up, they're already cornering relationships across all the smaller pacific nations. Chinese demand for raw resources is huge, they're throwing a lot of money around at the moment. Even free trade with them is easy (whereas the USA wants to shove stupid patent and IP laws down our throats, give corporations the right to sue governments etc). It's quite concerning how quickly they're moving.
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Color coding of the flight deck crew and hand signals does not equate going to the Moon.
Or like I said, you could just read a book.
http://publicintelligence.net/u-s-navy-nuclear-carrier-vessel-flight-deck-manual/
OK, I guess I've got to spell it out. I'm sure they have all of our CV NATOPS manuals, even the classified ones, and what you see in the video simply shows that copying us is exactly what they're doing. However, there's a big difference between reading a manual and the experience and training required to actually do it. CV ops are tremendously complex (I'm talking about the whole ship and air wing weapons system, not just the color of some guy's jersey) and it's a simple fact that they have reportedly sent young men to the US to gain the actual training and experience at the US Navy's expense. This is not a tremendous leap in logic, it simply is what it is.
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"Private Lee report to the bridge!"
*Entire crew shows up*
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Let it go into international waters and have an "accident"
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The CV in WWIII will have the same fate as the BB of WWII. The sub will rule the oceans.
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China is the largest manufacturing power on Earth.
It is the most populated.
Sure, they may only build a Carrier that is only 1/2 or 3/4 as good as the USA.
But given time and money, both of which they have, they can build twice as many.
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China is the largest manufacturing power on Earth.
It is the most populated.
Sure, they may only build a Carrier that is only 1/2 or 3/4 as good as the USA.
But given time and money, both of which they have, they can build twice as many.
We also have NATO...they have...North Korea?
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I've said it a million times and will say it again.
Pearl Harbor, 9/11, Gulf War 2, Vietnam and even the Spanish American war in the late 19th century.
Believing your enemy to be inferior to you and nothing to worry about. Is a very very bad idea.
I'm fairly certain no one is saying ignore the Chinese. Some of us are simply pointing out that just because they rolled out a CV doesn't make them the masters of the high seas. Besides, with all of the anti-ship missile systems that most countries possess now, every single CV out there is virtually doomed if within range to Exocet Inundation....the firing of so many anti-ship missiles simultaneously that the ships defense systems are over-loaded in response. Exocets, Harpoon II and Penguin Mk2 have standoff, over the horizon ranges and can be fired from multiple launch platforms including submarines at depth. Salvos of 12-15 Harpoon II beyond the horizon or Exocets would set a CV back months if not sink her outright. It's a different blue water and littoral waters world boys.
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LOL. You guys (USA) need to wake up, they're already cornering relationships across all the smaller pacific nations. Chinese demand for raw resources is huge, they're throwing a lot of money around at the moment. Even free trade with them is easy (whereas the USA wants to shove stupid patent and IP laws down our throats, give corporations the right to sue governments etc). It's quite concerning how quickly they're moving.
This one sounds bitter...China has 2.5 billion soldiers....and no real logistical method of getting them anywhere in a hurry. MacAuthur was correct....no one will ever win a land war in Asia so don't fight them there. If you leave the Chinese alone, they'll leave everyone else alone.
Proof statement: with all the economic success China is having, how many US citizens are applying for Chinese citizenship for the opportunities there? Yup...thought so....
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China is the largest manufacturing power on Earth.
It is the most populated.
Sure, they may only build a Carrier that is only 1/2 or 3/4 as good as the USA.
But given time and money, both of which they have, they can build twice as many.
That Idk about. a large navy is extremely expensive, Yes china may have money and it is increasing everyday. this does not mean they will field a large navy with twice as many CVs as us. plus you also have to factor we have allies with large surface navies aswell Australia, Japan, Britain, France, I think germany italy and spain also have a sizable Surface fleet. couple that with our large navy and the odds quickly become small. plus china is inexperianced when it comes to naval warfare. yes you can say that give them time they will learn. but with our experience, we will still come out on top. but the price in my opinion would be WAY!!!!! to high. i mean think about it. WW1 30 million died. WW2 55-60 million died. what do you think a war with China VS USA+her allies.= would cost?
My uncle is a statagist with the US Army, a damn good one too. he told me "we would win, But at a High cost".
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That thing is as effective as the big French CVs? I am skeptical.
I believe India also has one of those carriers in service, though they have been operational with it for a bit if I recall. Of course nobody here is alarmed at India having a CV because, I guess, India is seen as a friendly democracy.
INS Vikrant:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2114/2127148882_26758fa938.jpg)
Seems India is building another CV of domestic design as well. Expected to enter service in 2017 to 2020.
Britain stopped giving charity aid to India this month :rofl
I asked Mr Wing at my local Chinese take away about the said developements, he said he was more concerned with the new takeaway opening across the road, he also said stopped asking stupid questions and do I want my usual :old:
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Zack is Chinese! :old:
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And while China is working on its first domestic carrier....the United States has already begun on its next class of carriers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford_class_aircraft_carrier
The Ford Class carriers to replace the Nimitz class carriers with the scheduled launch in 2013. Still as large as the Nimitz class and still carry nearly twice as many planes as any other carrier in the world. What will the Chinese do if they had to face a full complement of F35s?
But with these what if's...neither the United States nor China is dumb enough to go to war with each other. They both rely heavily on each other.
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It took the British about 20 years to work out the kinks in their carrier program. I'll bet that it doesn't take China that long. Since 2000 the Chinese has increased their military spending and their information gathering. While they may be our friends today they have ambitions that will bring them into conflict with the US. Some things that have happened in the past few years;
-US P3 Patrol plane emergeny lands in China, China held the crew and went through the plane. How much ASW secrets did they get from that P3?
-Targeting a US orbiting satalite with a lazer.
-Spys...Don't know how many we have caught..But there are also the things they have done above board; buying US computer technology..At one point some of this was held up when the intellegence service (?) Congress (?) got suspicious as to what they why we were giving them technology.
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This one sounds bitter...China has 2.5 billion soldiers....and no real logistical method of getting them anywhere in a hurry. MacAuthur was correct....no one will ever win a land war in Asia so don't fight them there. If you leave the Chinese alone, they'll leave everyone else alone.
Proof statement: with all the economic success China is having, how many US citizens are applying for Chinese citizenship for the opportunities there? Yup...thought so....
You're joking...right?
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And while China is working on its first domestic carrier....the United States has already begun on its next class of carriers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford_class_aircraft_carrier
The Ford Class carriers to replace the Nimitz class carriers with the scheduled launch in 2013. Still as large as the Nimitz class and still carry nearly twice as many planes as any other carrier in the world. What will the Chinese do if they had to face a full complement of F35s?
But with these what if's...neither the United States nor China is dumb enough to go to war with each other. They both rely heavily on each other.
Britain had just got rid of its only Aircraft carrier, Mr John Thomas of Big End Lane has stated he is willing to 1/1000 scale model of the Ark Royal which look at by a satilite
may fool the Reds. :old:
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(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g256/BloodyBandage/carriers-2012.gif)
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You're joking...right?
No, I'm not. Please tell us the last war the Chinese started. Korea doesn't count because the North and the South had been at each others throats since WWII
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Still think it is borderline paranoia to think the Chinese are infiltrating the U.S. Navy to learn how to shuffle aircraft on deck. This information is much easier obtained from the Russians or Indians, or even ex-U.S. Navy personnel who need the money to cover gambling debts or drug habits.
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Still think it is borderline paranoia to think the Chinese are infiltrating the U.S. Navy to learn how to shuffle aircraft on deck. This information is much easier obtained from the Russians or Indians, or even ex-U.S. Navy personnel who need the money to cover gambling debts or drug habits.
So, you take an interesting observation and turn it into "infiltration" and "borderline paranoia? If they are doing what's reported it isn't espionage, it isn't even illegal. It's really not much different than foreign students that are sponsored by their country and sent to the US for college for the sole purpose of returning with their training and education. The Chinese (and many others) have been doing it for years. Also, don't forget that many countries have, and still are, receiving training from the US officially. Yamamoto went to Harvard. We trained all of the Iranian pilots up until the Shaw's overthrow and still train the Saudi pilots. We're even training the Lebanese Armed Forces right now. Chinese enlisting in the US Navy doesn't even require you to stretch your imagination.
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Chinese enlisting in the US Navy doesn't even require you to stretch your imagination.
For the stated purpose it does as that information is readily available without any of the hassle. If you wanted to say they are joining and becoming naval aviators in order to get experience in landing on and taking off from carriers, that might be more believable, but I think we'd have had reports of a Chinese nationals serving as naval aviators in the United States Navy.
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No, I'm not. Please tell us the last war the Chinese started. Korea doesn't count because the North and the South had been at each others throats since WWII
The Sino-Indian War of 1962 when China started a border war with India and the Third Indochina War of 1979 when China invaded northern Vietnam to force Vietnam to withdraw from Cambodia.
ack-ack
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The Sino-Indian War of 1962 when China started a border war with India and the Third Indochina War of 1979 when China invaded northern Vietnam.
ack-ack
I asked for an example of a war, not a border conflict that lasted a month that included a ChiCom withdraw that was quicker than the "invasion" SinoIND was about Kashmir...a futily contested area by the Pakkis, Indians and ChiCom. The Chinese would have run the board on the Indians and didn't. An attack yes, war, no.
3IC was payback to the Vietnamese for pushing Laos and Cambodia around after the US lost and left. There were reasons that we can at least agree with: ChiComs helped the N Vietnamese against us but when ethnic Chinese began getting tortured and expelled from Vietnam, the ChiComs took exception. A decent example of a reprisal attack. I'm guessing you used Wikipedia, lmao!
Why not list Taiwan? Provacative boat sinkings? Shooting down US surv aircraft? Unprovocated war....you have nothing. Come on ACK...weak.
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I asked for an example of a war, not a border conflict that lasted a month that included a ChiCom withdraw that was quicker than the "invasion" SinoIND was about Kashmir...a futily contested area by the Pakkis, Indians and ChiCom. The Chinese would have run the board on the Indians and didn't. An attack yes, war, no.
3IC was payback to the Vietnamese for pushing Laos and Cambodia around after the US lost and left. There were reasons that we can at least agree with: ChiComs helped the N Vietnamese against us but when ethnic Chinese began getting tortured and expelled from Vietnam, the ChiComs took exception. A decent example of a reprisal attack. I'm guessing you used Wikipedia, lmao!
Why not list Taiwan? Provacative boat sinkings? Shooting down US surv aircraft? Unprovocated war....you have nothing. Come on ACK...weak.
You're just moving the goal posts now because someone showed you to be wrong.
ack-ack
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China is the largest manufacturing power on Earth.
It is the most populated.
Sure, they may only build a Carrier that is only 1/2 or 3/4 as good as the USA.
But given time and money, both of which they have, they can build twice as many.
didnt the german said during ww2 that "their tanks were so superior to the americans that it took 3 allied tanks to kill 1 german? the problem was that the allied always seem to have 5 around".
midway
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No, I'm not. Please tell us the last war the Chinese started. Korea doesn't count because the North and the South had been at each others throats since WWII
If you've payed any attention to the Southeast Asian news over the past months, you would see that China is trying to rename the area east of Vietnam and West of the Phillipines the "South China Sea". I don't know where they got the idea that it belonged to them when the two closest countries are Vietnam, Malaysia and the Phillipines..
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/South_China_Sea_map.jpg)
Trying to take over a body of water doesn't sound like they're "leaving everyone alone".
You probably also haven't heard of Chinese pirates robbing Vietnamese fishing boats in their own coastline.
Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines have all had disputes with China within the past 2 years.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/110614/south-china-sea-china-vs-vietnam
Remind you of anything?
(http://historiana.eu/assets/uploads/I000000361.jpg)
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You're just moving the goal posts now because someone showed you to be wrong.
ack-ack
A predictable retort from someone who answered the question outside of the spirit in which it was asked so needs the claim of a rule change for his weak response...how destitute. Moving the goal posts wouldn't have mattered because your kick got blocked.
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If you've payed any attention to the Southeast Asian news over the past months, you would see that China is trying to rename the area east of Vietnam and West of the Phillipines the "South China Sea". I don't know where they got the idea that it belonged to them when the two closest countries are Vietnam, Malaysia and the Phillipines..
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/South_China_Sea_map.jpg)
Trying to take over a body of water doesn't sound like they're "leaving everyone alone".
You probably also haven't heard of Chinese pirates robbing Vietnamese fishing boats in their own coastline.
Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines have all had disputes with China within the past 2 years.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/110614/south-china-sea-china-vs-vietnam
Remind you of anything?
(http://historiana.eu/assets/uploads/I000000361.jpg)
wasnt it always called the south china sea?
midway
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If you've payed any attention to the Southeast Asian news over the past months, you would see that China is trying to rename the area east of Vietnam and West of the Phillipines the "South China Sea". I don't know where they got the idea that it belonged to them when the two closest countries are Vietnam, Malaysia and the Phillipines..
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/South_China_Sea_map.jpg)
Trying to take over a body of water doesn't sound like they're "leaving everyone alone".
You probably also haven't heard of Chinese pirates robbing Vietnamese fishing boats in their own coastline.
Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines have all had disputes with China within the past 2 years.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/110614/south-china-sea-china-vs-vietnam
Remind you of anything?
(http://historiana.eu/assets/uploads/I000000361.jpg)
Ummm....they've claimed those waters and lands since before WWII. Nothing new here and to assume or render parallels to Pre-WWII Europe would be preposterous. The Chinese pride themselves on their tactical surprise. I'm certain their war colleges and flag officer programs wince at the thought of tactically or strategically repeating history....and for the Chinese military strategist....that would be bad.
I never said they weren't poopy heads....I simply asked for an example, with indifference to ACK, where they have started a world war. They haven't. And they won't. In as much as no country could beat them in a land war, they'll never be able to push anyone around outside of their own continent....they never have.
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wasnt it always called the south china sea?
midway
It was, just not printed on every map. Some accepted South China Sea, some preferred it to be Southeast Asia Sea. Now they want ALL maps to be changed to South China Sea.
Ummm....they've claimed those waters and lands since before WWII. Nothing new here and to assume or render parallels to Pre-WWII Europe would be preposterous. The Chinese pride themselves on their tactical surprise. I'm certain their war colleges and flag officer programs wince at the thought of tactically or strategically repeating history....and for the Chinese military strategist....that would be bad.
I never said they weren't poopy heads....I simply asked for an example, with indifference to ACK, where they have started a world war. They haven't. And they won't. In as much as no country could beat them in a land war, they'll never be able to push anyone around outside of their own continent....they never have.
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A predictable retort from someone who answered the question outside of the spirit in which it was asked so needs the claim of a rule change for his weak response...how destitute. Moving the goal posts wouldn't have mattered because your kick got blocked.
this is your original post.
No, I'm not. Please tell us the last war the Chinese started. Korea doesn't count because the North and the South had been at each others throats since WWII
I provided two example of wars started by the Chinese in 1962 and 1979. In one of your next posts, you moved the goal post by claiming you said "world wars".
I simply asked for an example, with indifference to ACK, where they have started a world war. They haven't. And they won't. In as much as no country could beat them in a land war, they'll never be able to push anyone around outside of their own continent....they never have.
Better luck next time champ.
ack-ack
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And Japan and China are still bickering about the islands that they both seem to claim. Wonder what play these islands have in the desire for China to have a carrier.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/world/asia/japan-china-disputed-islands/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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this is your original post.
I provided two example of wars started by the Chinese in 1962 and 1979. In one of your next posts, you moved the goal post by claiming you said "world wars".
Better luck next time champ.
ack-ack
I love this guy. He believes wars are wars because of how they're named. So using your logic, the US started the Panamanian War of 1989 or the War of Grenada right? There was a tiny part of me that wanted to believe you were smarter than that. Do you actually try those little verbal technicality dodges and manipulations with other adults? You should focus on talking only to the people that it works on....you'll just get chuckled at quite often if you don't. What a sandlot goof...
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A bloke down the pub said the US started the second war :old:
He said its a cover up :old:
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A bloke down the pub said the US started the second war :old:
He said its a cover up :old:
ACK is in England right now?
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:)
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I love this guy. He believes wars are wars because of how they're named. So using your logic, the US started the Panamanian War of 1989 or the War of Grenada right? There was a tiny part of me that wanted to believe you were smarter than that. Do you actually try those little verbal technicality dodges and manipulations with other adults? You should focus on talking only to the people that it works on....you'll just get chuckled at quite often if you don't. What a sandlot goof...
Definition of War:
Noun
A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.
Are you under the misguided impression that a war can only be a war if it's global and declared?
ack-ack
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Definition of War:
Noun
A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.
Are you under the misguided impression that a war can only be a war if it's global and declared?
ack-ack
Again the spirit of the original question escapes you. But you already know that as evidenced by the ease at which continue to draw you off sides.
EDIT: as I said, it depends on how you define it: from Merriam
Synonyms: battle bloodshed cold war combat conflict contention contest enmity fighting hostilities hostility police action strife strike struggle warfare
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Purse fight? Let it be known: The Prada and the Gucci purses are perked.
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Naaa, he's just being ACK...he knows the difference. He just gets off to being an crotchyanker
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I still dont understand why the United states and her allies do not spend a few trillion and make a moon base, eliminate the navy fleet,and move it out into space.
It has been said, he who commands space commands the earths between them, this one included.
And we had better get our shiyat together before the Russians or Chinese figure it out.
We need marines, space marines..and a space navy, we need to be able to crash down in drop pods on any part of the planet, we need the ability to fire rai lguns and lasers and all sorts of cool weapons down onto the planet at any whim.
and we need a really really big sling shot in the grand canyon to get us there. :rock
COMMON FUTURE!! :bhead
We also need flying cars, if everyone had a flying car..we wouldn't have time for wars or global dominance, everyone would be having fun flying...in a CAR!!
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I still dont understand why the United states and her allies do not spend a few trillion and make a moon base, eliminate the navy fleet,and move it out into space.
It has been said, he who commands space commands the earths between them, this one included.
And we had better get our shiyat together before the Russians or Chinese figure it out.
We need marines, space marines..and a space navy, we need to be able to crash down in drop pods on any part of the planet, we need the ability to fire rai lguns and lasers and all sorts of cool weapons down onto the planet at any whim.
and we need a really really big sling shot in the grand canyon to get us there. :rock
COMMON FUTURE!! :bhead
We also need flying cars, if everyone had a flying car..we wouldn't have time for wars or global dominance, everyone would be having fun flying...in a CAR!!
And use money as toilet paper. I hear its good for your skin.
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Ask the rich, they approve of that use. :rock
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I have a flying car and also live on the moon :old:
I believe one day that Communism in the Soviet Union will collapse :old:
In the new year I will get my new PC so everyone has no need to worry about my absence from the game :old:
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I still dont understand why the United states and her allies do not spend a few trillion and make a moon base, eliminate the navy fleet,and move it out into space.
It has been said, he who commands space commands the earths between them, this one included.
And we had better get our shiyat together before the Russians or Chinese figure it out.
We need marines, space marines..and a space navy, we need to be able to crash down in drop pods on any part of the planet, we need the ability to fire rai lguns and lasers and all sorts of cool weapons down onto the planet at any whim.
and we need a really really big sling shot in the grand canyon to get us there. :rock
COMMON FUTURE!! :bhead
We also need flying cars, if everyone had a flying car..we wouldn't have time for wars or global dominance, everyone would be having fun flying...in a CAR!!
OH pleas ewe havent even got the technology to get to the moon. The landings were pure scify, explaine to me why ythe flag is waving in the moonlanding video, there is no wind there so how is the flag waving?!?!?! And we have flying cars the gov't is just afraid of allowing them to be massded produced as there is no autopilot for it yet and we cant even drive regular cars with out wrecking them.
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It was, just not printed on every map. Some accepted South China Sea, some preferred it to be Southeast Asia Sea. Now they want ALL maps to be changed to South China Sea.
well if I remember correctly there's 2 points here.
number 1 I always read on every single map that is was called the south china sea and point 2: they cant make anybody change any maps at all. it's like mcdonald's trying to exclude the word mcjob in the dictionary.
so I dont see what the big deal about it is. we have called it the south china sea for years, now we dont want china to ask anybody to call it that?
midway
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well if I remember correctly there's 2 points here.
number 1 I always read on every single map that is was called the south china sea and point 2: they cant make anybody change any maps at all. it's like mcdonald's trying to exclude the word mcjob in the dictionary.
so I dont see what the big deal about it is. we have called it the south china sea for years, now we dont want china to ask anybody to call it that?
midway
No, only CHINA calls it the South China Sea. Every other Southeast Asian country call it by their native name. China apparently doesn't want that and wants every other country in the world to acknowledge that is "their" sea. That's what [a part] of the fuss over there is about. Apparently, a lot of western powers has already accepted that term simply because China holds more power over Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Taiwan or the Philippines.
The other parts includes pirates, and them trying to claim land that they don't even own because there's a recent find that there is possible oil on some islands.
1. The United Nations has officially recognized the region and the name “Southeast Asia”.
2. The countries of Southeast Asia encompass almost the entire South China Sea with a total coastline measuring approximately 130,000 kilometers (81,250 miles) long; whereas the Southern China’s coastline measured about 2,800 kilometers (1,750 miles) in length.
3. The sea is not restricted to a specific country. It is a common heritage of mankind and has actually been used by the international community for centuries as the second most important water channel in the world.
A simple change to Southeast Asia Sea would make everyone a little happier. But nooooo, "South China Sea" is right because we own 2.2% of the coastline. :rolleyes:
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OH pleas ewe havent even got the technology to get to the moon. The landings were pure scify, explaine to me why ythe flag is waving in the moonlanding video, there is no wind there so how is the flag waving?!?!?! And we have flying cars the gov't is just afraid of allowing them to be massded produced as there is no autopilot for it yet and we cant even drive regular cars with out wrecking them.
Solar winds.
As to the flying cars, it was a joke.
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No, only CHINA calls it the South China Sea. Every other Southeast Asian country call it by their native name. China apparently doesn't want that and wants every other country in the world to acknowledge that is "their" sea. That's what [a part] of the fuss over there is about. Apparently, a lot of western powers has already accepted that term simply because China holds more power over Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Taiwan or the Philippines.
The other parts includes pirates, and them trying to claim land that they don't even own because there's a recent find that there is possible oil on some islands.
1. The United Nations has officially recognized the region and the name “Southeast Asia”.
2. The countries of Southeast Asia encompass almost the entire South China Sea with a total coastline measuring approximately 130,000 kilometers (81,250 miles) long; whereas the Southern China’s coastline measured about 2,800 kilometers (1,750 miles) in length.
3. The sea is not restricted to a specific country. It is a common heritage of mankind and has actually been used by the international community for centuries as the second most important water channel in the world.
A simple change to Southeast Asia Sea would make everyone a little happier. But nooooo, "South China Sea" is right because we own 2.2% of the coastline. :rolleyes:
Im not sure I've ever heard it called anything other than the South China Sea...and I'm not Chinese....I think you just made that up...lol. Just sayin
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Im not sure I've ever heard it called anything other than the South China Sea...and I'm not Chinese....I think you just made that up...lol. Just sayin
Biển Đông
(East Sea) - Vietnamese
Dagat Kanlurang Pilipinas
(West Philippine Sea) -Filipino
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Im not sure I've ever heard it called anything other than the South China Sea...and I'm not Chinese....I think you just made that up...lol. Just sayin
I am thinking more along the lines that the countries around want to change the name from south china sea to the southeast whatever not the other way around.
midway
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No, only CHINA calls it the South China Sea. Every other Southeast Asian country call it by their native name. China apparently doesn't want that and wants every other country in the world to acknowledge that is "their" sea. That's what [a part] of the fuss over there is about. Apparently, a lot of western powers has already accepted that term simply because China holds more power over Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Taiwan or the Philippines.
The other parts includes pirates, and them trying to claim land that they don't even own because there's a recent find that there is possible oil on some islands.
1. The United Nations has officially recognized the region and the name “Southeast Asia”.
2. The countries of Southeast Asia encompass almost the entire South China Sea with a total coastline measuring approximately 130,000 kilometers (81,250 miles) long; whereas the Southern China’s coastline measured about 2,800 kilometers (1,750 miles) in length.
3. The sea is not restricted to a specific country. It is a common heritage of mankind and has actually been used by the international community for centuries as the second most important water channel in the world.
A simple change to Southeast Asia Sea would make everyone a little happier. But nooooo, "South China Sea" is right because we own 2.2% of the coastline. :rolleyes:
one more thing the countries you are mentioning used to be called Indochina. coincidence? I dont think so :).
midway
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one more thing the countries you are mentioning used to be called Indochina by the French. coincidence? I dont think so :).
midway
Fixed that for you.
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/14/rivals-push-to-rename-the-south-china-sea-2/
I know it's a blog...but this quote from China is full of poo.
“Given its adherence to developing good-neighborly relations with Asian nations, China is unwilling to have trouble with its neighbors over maritime territorial disputes,” the paper wrote. “To our regret, China's goodwill and tolerance seem to have played on deaf ears recently. The Philippines and Vietnam have both chosen to provoke China over this issue again.”
Maybe if they hadn't attacked Filipino and Vietnamese fishing boats...there wouldn't be an issue. Maybe if they didn't start claiming land that is nowhere near their coastline...there wouldn't be an issue.
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Fixed that for you.
well the books I read when I was in school were not in french. I have never been in school in France or a France affiliated country either. so I guess we were wrong to call it Indochina. on second thought you are just being silly :neener: :neener:.
midway
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well the books I read when I was in school were not in french. I have never been in school in France or a France affiliated country either. so I guess we were wrong to call it Indochina. on second thought you are just being silly :neener: :neener:.
midway
Uhh...maybe because France was a western power and therefore...the name stuck?
You're not wrong to call it Indochina, that's the name the French gave to that region of the world and if that's what the English language wants it to be called, fine.
Just know that it's a name created by a foreign country. And not the actual name used by the country itself and its neighbors.
Vietnamese people call Americans "Mỹ". Are you going to say that it's wrong? And call it silly? Because your textbook from school said differently?
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Biển Đông
(East Sea) - Vietnamese
Dagat Kanlurang Pilipinas
(West Philippine Sea) -Filipino
Well....the area I live in is Argyle, TX but my friends call it Dallas, lmao! I hate to say it but the rest of the world calls it the South China Sea. Its refered to as the dominant name. I appreciate your point.
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Looking through the 'other languages' links it seems that the sea is called the South China Sea in nearly every language that is written in the latin or cyrillic alphabets.
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Well....the area I live in is Argyle, TX but my friends call it Dallas, lmao! I hate to say it but the rest of the world calls it the South China Sea. Its refered to as the dominant name. I appreciate your point.
That's not the issue. The issue is that China tries tells Vietnam and the Philippines that their "East Sea/West Philippine Sea" is wrong. And that's what got both nations pizz off (among other things). Had they left it alone and didn't boast that "SouthChina Sea" was the "right" name, there would've been no quarrel.
I personally don't care what the English language calls that area of the world is, just so long as the people who uses the terms "South China Sea" and "Indochina" realizes that that is not the name of the region that people uses.
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Looking through the 'other languages' links it seems that the sea is called the South China Sea in nearly every language that is written in the latin or cyrillic alphabets.
Alright, since this seems to be a hard thing for some to grasp...
Some Britishs use the word "loo" for bathroom.
Almost all Americans use the word bathroom/toilet/restroom/lavatory.
Are you going to tell the British person that he is wrong and silly for using the word "loo"? :headscratch:
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Alright, since this seems to be a hard thing for some to grasp...
Some Britishs use the word "loo" for bathroom.
Almost all Americans use the word bathroom/toilet/restroom/lavatory.
Are you going to tell the British person that he is wrong and silly for using the word "loo"? :headscratch:
no, but if the British and almost every country in the world were to called a sea the south china sea then who are we to tell them they're wrong and silly?
midway
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no, but if the British and almost every country in the world were to called a sea the south china sea then who are we to tell them they're wrong and silly?
midway
I never said they were "wrong and silly".
well the books I read when I was in school were not in french. I have never been in school in France or a France affiliated country either. so I guess we were wrong to call it Indochina. on second thought you are just being silly :neener: :neener:.
midway
You did. ;)
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That's not the issue. The issue is that China tries tells Vietnam and the Philippines that their "East Sea/West Philippine Sea" is wrong. And that's what got both nations pizz off (among other things). Had they left it alone and didn't boast that "SouthChina Sea" was the "right" name, there would've been no quarrel.
I personally don't care what the English language calls that area of the world is, just so long as the people who uses the terms "South China Sea" and "Indochina" realizes that that is not the name of the region that people uses.
China actually calls the other countries through diplomatic channels to tell them what to call that ocean????? Or do they spam them through email and make their peasants call other countries in a phone solicitation kinda-thingy? Dude, are you nuts? You made that up, lmao. A "tiger" doesn't care about the opinions of sheep.