Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: RotBaron on December 20, 2012, 02:16:09 PM
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Just one tour and see what the results and response is. Of course in this tour there would be exceptions, like fighters could still HO bombers vice versa and a 410 and the like could still HO those unwise enough to go HO with them.
I know we'd see some guys scores plummet. :D
It's very frustrating to climb to alt, prepare for a dog fight, get boxed into having no choice but to merge similar alt with a comparable fighter and get shot in the face. In said circumstances if I turn/dive I give up my position, tactic and/or energy.
:bhead :(
Or better yet make the HO killshoot the HO'er.
If the result is one of welcome, how about an MA where HO's as described are off?
:salute
Rot
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Absolutely not.
If you are getting shot in the face it is ENTIRELY your own fault. Stop flying right at other people.
Do a search for "lead turn". With a proper lead turn you will be hoping that people go for a head on shot.
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HO them first!! :aok
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Absolutely not.
If you are getting shot in the face it is ENTIRELY your own fault. Stop flying right at other people.
Do a search for "lead turn". With a proper lead turn you will be hoping that people go for a head on shot.
I'll search that, but you missed this part - "get boxed into having no choice but to merge similar alt with a comparable fighter and get shot in the face"
-that is boxed in by his friendlies.
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HO them first!! :aok
I'm trying to learn to dogfight. Anybody can HO and I see it as pointless and a waste of time.
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I'm trying to learn to dogfight. Anybody can HO and I see it as pointless and a waste of time.
Read up some on WWII it was a valid and often used tatic.
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One tour Griff? That's too much to ask. I must ask then, what is it about the HO that has you vehemently defending not allowing even just one tour where they are off???
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Read up some on WWII it was a valid and often used tatic.
I'm well aware of that it was used, "often," I beg to differ.
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Explain how the computer can tell what a HO is and is not.
I have shot enemy aircraft at a 90 degree angle and been accused of HOing.
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Explain how the computer can tell what a HO is and is not.
I have shot enemy aircraft at a 90 degree angle and been accused of HOing.
Then that accuser is clueless. I'm not a programmer/coder, but I do believe it has been said that HOs were off in AW, can anyone verify that? Really with everything else that is modeled in this game requiring advanced physics and geometry, this should be a cinch.
GTG will check back later.
:salute
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I'm well aware of that it was used, "often," I beg to differ.
Beg to differ all you want it was a common tactic used by all sides. A large number of Richard Bong's kills were a result of him using head on attacks.
ack-ack
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Then that accuser is clueless. I'm not a programmer/coder, but I do believe it has been said that HOs were off in AW, can anyone verify that? Really with everything else that is modeled in this game requiring advanced physics and geometry, this should be a cinch.
GTG will check back later.
:salute
Head on shots were possible in AW, planes with nose mounted guns wer even given a bonus modifier to score head on hits.
ack-ack
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I'll search that, but you missed this part - "get boxed into having no choice but to merge similar alt with a comparable fighter and get shot in the face"
-that is boxed in by his friendlies.
There is always something you can do. A simple ailiron roll will throw of most chances at them hitting you. Add some rudder and now your sliding around in their site forcing them to kick rudder and roll to get rounds on you.
I too hate HOs, unfortunately it's the ONLY way some can play this game. They have no skill at maneuvering for a shot other than driving strait at your nose.
Read up some on WWII it was a valid and often used tatic.
The most often used answer by those who spend most of their time HOing :devil
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HOing is wrong, but it can be avoided.
Leave the stupid HOers alone, rather ask your friends to teach you in a private place. You will not learn how to dogfight by only flying in the MA: the real good fights are pretty rare there.
For AKAK: yes, it was used. Do you know the real Debrody's story? He and his wingman were jumped by Jaks and Las in early November, '44. He got an La5 but ended up hoing with a Jak3. Of course the G6's 30mm gun blew the Jak up instantly but he got a 20mm round into his stomach too. Took him 6 months til he could walk again. Im pretty damn sure he would have never ever tryed to HO again...
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First, it is possible to disable HOing if the flight models were given a proximity cone into which if a another models attempts to fire within that cone it would be disables...
Second, take advantage of their HOing, you get to start your maneuvering to fight the HOing enemy
Third: -50,000 to the wish
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One tour Griff? That's too much to ask. I must ask then, what is it about the HO that has you vehemently defending not allowing even just one tour where they are off???
I am not trying to be a smart ass. I truly believe that is a bad idea for these reasons:
1. If you make it so that bullet hits don't count for certain target angles, then you are introducing fake physics into the arena, which I am strongly against
2. Not only are head on shots INCREDIBLY easy to avoid with a bit of practice at lead turns, but the advantage you can gain at the first pass against someone who is intent on take a head on shot is enormous. Why on earth would you ever want to remove that advantage? That makes no sense to me at all. Wouldn't you want people to continue to try to take head on shots so that you can make a well timed lead turn at the first pass and get an advantage on them?
3. Being more pragmatic about it, the goal of the game is to have bullets come out of your plane and hit another plane. The angle is irrelevant. Saying that head on shots are good or bad is ridiculous. If you are finding that you keep getting shot down by people who are shooting at you from head on, then stop flying right at people when you are in their gun range.
4. Being even more pragmatic about it: people have been making these threads for over a decade, and yet the ability to land hits on planes from all angles is still in the game.
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Explain how the computer can tell what a HO is and is not.
I have shot enemy aircraft at a 90 degree angle and been accused of HOing.
Last night, some tard accused me of HO-ing him when I saddled up and finished off his 1/2 wing A5 trying to RTB. Considering those were the first rounds fired in the sortie, I guess that means you can HO people from behind. (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/rolleye0003.gif)
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Last night, some tard accused me of HO-ing him when I saddled up and finished off his 1/2 wing A5 trying to RTB. Considering those were the first rounds fired in the sortie, I guess that means you can HO people from behind. (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/rolleye0003.gif)
Some guys seem to view it as a HO if they can see your plane when they're looking out the front of their aircraft.
As to the suggestion, please no. No magic bullets disappearing because of the angle they're fired at.
Wiley.
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I cant get behind this for the simple fact that if I see a jet coming and Im not too far from my base I'm going to try and ho the guy.
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HO them first!! :aok
Read up some on WWII it was a valid and often used tatic.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Whatever you do don't listen to guys like this, Rot
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I'm trying to learn to dogfight. Anybody can HO and I see it as pointless and a waste of time.
This is what Aces High needs, more new guys with this mindset, not "YAY LETS GET 40 GUYS ON THIS BASE AND TAKE IT AND HO THEN RUN AND STICK STIR YAAA!"
:salute Rot, it's a long road learning ACM, I suggest starting with Spitfires, La's, even some 109's, but don't stick to them, branch out once you start getting a good feeling for the A/C :aok :cheers:
:salute
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HO's keep the fight Honest.....
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Explain how the computer can tell what a HO is and is not.
I have shot enemy aircraft at a 90 degree angle and been accused of HOing.
I would think you could armor the front surfaces of fighter aircraft and make defensive gunner rounds armor piercing.
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I'm not a programmer/coder, but I do believe it has been said that HOs were off in AW, can anyone verify that?
+1
It wasn't that is was turned off , It was the hit value from like 11 to 1 or 11:30 to 12:30 was decreased so much that it was just a waste of ammo to even try, rarely did you get a hit never less a kill.
When folks did HO the whole community would come down on them as a clueless loser that couldn't fight :) Because it was turned so far down folks weren't afraid to merge right at each other, thus is why you see some people come straight at you for the fight. Just keep your finger off the trigger, merge and it's on.
As far as the HO being a very common tactic is bull hockey, when you take all the shots made in WWII and add them up, I bet they would be less than 5% of the total.
Good for Dick Bong and a few others who made it their common tactic and the LW attacking buffs, but in general it was not a common tactic at all. Quite the opposite.
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Last night, some tard accused me of HO-ing him when I saddled up and finished off his 1/2 wing A5 trying to RTB. Considering those were the first rounds fired in the sortie, I guess that means you can HO people from behind. (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/rolleye0003.gif)
Who's the tard here? :lol :rolleyes:
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I would think you could armor the front surfaces of fighter aircraft and make defensive gunner rounds armor piercing.
That would affect a great deal more than just HOs.
There really isn't any practical way to disable HOs without also disabling a number of other things with it.
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1st in AW to hit a plane your bullet had to pass with in a 3 wingspan diameter circle. If it did, it was a hit, no matter if it really touched the plane structure or not.
2nd removing front angle shots changes the dynamics to give an advantage to turn fighting vs e fighting. And I am not talking about B&Z head ons.
Defeating a ropa dope suddenly becomes simple, All you have to do is have your plane facing him, and no worries mate, he cant hit you as he is coming down, and you are a stationary target ripe for the picking, but bullet proof.
Snap shots on scissors become useless.
HiTech
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Who's the tard here? :lol :rolleyes:
I was engaged with him in a high speed fight but never had a firing solution until then, so I would say you are.
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Defeating a ropa dope suddenly becomes simple, All you have to do is have your plane facing him, and no worries mate, he cant hit you as he is coming down, and you are a stationary target ripe for the picking, but bullet proof.
Snap shots on scissors become useless.
HiTech
These reasons had not occurred to me, and would actually work against me (when I develop some skill) as I like some of the energy fighters.
I see the light, thank you.
Griff: I've started reading about how to use the lead turn, thank you.
How about some advice when you are trying to deack, your buddy is down there in an lvt and the clock is ticking on that WF. The enemy ups and heads straight for you, but you have a couple more ack to get...
Also was just reading an excerpt from a Soviet manual, I did note a part in there about HOs. However, Stalin was throwing superior numbers at them, not superior skill for the most part. "Often" used by some whose compatriots didn't care if they came back may be more apt.
:salute
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How about some advice when you are trying to deack, your buddy is down there in an lvt and the clock is ticking on that WF. The enemy ups and heads straight for you, but you have a couple more ack to get...
kill the enemy then finish deacking? or deack first, then fight the enemy?
crazy choices!
the answer is what's the biggest threat is what you fight first. eg. fight top to bottom in a furball, etc. etc.
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turn right/left with opposite rudder get at 100ft above them and you get a good reverse Ho from a angle you spray right onto of them works for me. <<S>
~~~~~nates~~~~~
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HOing is wrong, but it can be avoided.
Wrong?
Depends on who is doing the judging perhaps. If it is WWII pilots well they had no problem with it.
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A way of lessen the HO's is not to present distances so precisely, if I know a target is within a certain distance its much easier to hit.
If a target is within 1.5k and no range is presented except like '>1.5k' its so much harder predict when to shoot.
I frequently shoot at 600-800 yard off angle because I know where to aim with computed precision.
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A way of lessen the HO's is not to present distances so precisely, if I know a target is within a certain distance its much easier to hit.
If a target is within 1.5k and no range is presented except like '>1.5k' its so much harder predict when to shoot.
I frequently shoot at 600-800 yard off angle because I know where to aim with computed precision.
That would likely increase the occurrence of the HO as an attack due to not needing any deflection.
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Wrong?
Depends on who is doing the judging perhaps. If it is WWII pilots well they had no problem with it.
Read my post further. Debrody almost died to his last victory.
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Read my post further. Debrody almost died to his last victory.
Maybe that is an idea, we don't die really. Maybe if they made the HO so that if you "die" to it you have to spend 5 minutes in the tower recovering. This way there is a penalty for taking the chance on a HO.
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but he got a 20mm round into his stomach too. Took him 6 months til he could walk again. Im pretty damn sure he would have never ever tryed to HO again...
Good point yes.
For the remainder of WWII pilots that this did not happen to that used the Ho (Bong etc.) perhaps not.
I think this topic will never go away. I don't mind if someone tries to Ho me (not polarized on judging it as "bad"). It is not something I go out of my way to try to do. It was used in WWII. It is kinda like a joust from the knight days. :old:
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I got my first kill, then a second and third today using the newly acquired knowledge I have on proper use of the lead turn. :banana: Of course, what I realized is this is what I've been trying to do all along but using too much maneuver and loosing E. Horizontal separation seems to be more difficult than nosing down into redout and then Immelman to come out above and descend on him :devil
What was slightly frustrating is in between those kills I got HO-killed a few times, so I'm sure it's going to take awhile before I get a good hang of it. For some reason this was a difficult concept to grasp even after watching numerous videos, thanks Dawger and Fire57. Difficult until it worked and I knew why it worked. I've avoided HO's before and killed the bandit, but not with much comprehension as to why I was able to.
Pretty cool to be learning all of these things, never dreamt how vast the amount of knowledge set is. Gives me even that much more appreciation for WWII pilots in that they were able to acquire these skills and perfect them in such a short amount of time and especially considering they didn't have the luxury of dying over and over to get it right. I know from reading JG 26 how young some of the aces were and it's even more amazing to me now.
Thanks to everybody who has helped me along the way here.
HOmonkeys I'm coming for ya! :devil
:salute
Rot
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HO is a good tactic to use to make a B/Z bird break hard and lose E,I do this often with great success and I am not ashamed to admit it. :neener:
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That would affect a great deal more than just HOs.
There really isn't any practical way to disable HOs without also disabling a number of other things with it.
Can't say I'm a real fan of this idea anyway, but it seems like you could create a clear shield that would only defeat straight on shots like indicated in red here.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll149/jimsom88/hodefeat_zps72df89fc.jpg)
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Can't say I'm a real fan of this idea anyway, but it seems like you could create a clear shield that would only defeat straight on shots like indicated in red here.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll149/jimsom88/hodefeat_zps72df89fc.jpg)
That would also mitigate damage from other angles, though less so than from the HO.
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Might be about as close as you could get to isolating out the HO, if one was determined to do a sim like that.
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I suppose so. The further forward the armored plates were from the object and the closer they fit the front profile geometry, the less the deflection shots would be mitigated.
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The HO is just the John Wayne merge face to face guns blazing and there is nothing wrong with it it is a legitimate tactic. The US 50 cal can score hit at a 1000 yards out so fire until you close to 400 and break. Depending on what plane you chose to HO will dictate your success rate.
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The HO is just the John Wayne merge face to face guns blazing and there is nothing wrong with it it is a legitimate tactic. The US 50 cal can score hit at a 1000 yards out so fire until you close to 400 and break. Depending on what plane you chose to HO will dictate your success rate.
:rolleyes:
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I think it's too much work, but you could have two sets of shields. Only rounds passing through both set at the same spots are thrown out, this way angle shots could still work. You could also control how much an angle you allow also.
As many have said the HO is here to stay. I just wish there was a way to make it not so effective. Being effective draws the newbs into believing it's the quickest, easiest way to get a kill. Unfortunately far too many of the newbs don't progress beyond this point and so we have a vast majority doing it.
Maybe they can hand out a star for not shooting on a head on merge :noid
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My feeling is that if you matched the geometry of the shield to the front profile and extended it out a bit, very few angle shots would be blocked.
Only the most straight on HOs would be blocked. Really not worth the effort but would seem one way to do it.
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll149/jimsom88/hodefeat2_zps2c4f297c.jpg)
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Rot the lead turn is not the answer usually . A good pilot will not allow you to get the flight path separation . The best solution I have found is to force the nme into a negative G maneuver to get his ho .
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Maybe they can hand out a star for not shooting on a head on merge :noid
hand out a star for getting killed in a head on merge. ;)
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1st in AW to hit a plane your bullet had to pass with in a 3 wingspan diameter circle. If it did, it was a hit, no matter if it really touched the plane structure or not.
2nd removing front angle shots changes the dynamics to give an advantage to turn fighting vs e fighting. And I am not talking about B&Z head ons.
Defeating a ropa dope suddenly becomes simple, All you have to do is have your plane facing him, and no worries mate, he cant hit you as he is coming down, and you are a stationary target ripe for the picking, but bullet proof.
Snap shots on scissors become useless.
HiTech
I remember coming to AH after playing AW for years. Toughest part of the transition was the gunnery difficulty vs AW. I had no idea the "hit circle" or whatever was that big in AW and that explains it lol. I used to run into folks in the merge when I first came here too because of the merge style most of us used (no collisions).
Please don't remove the ability to force an overshoot and whack some guy in a rolling scissors who just bounced me.
Please don't remove the ability to faceshoot one or two of the five guys i got tangled up with on the deck.
Please don't remove the ability to make front quarter passes on buffs (even if I'm not smart enough to do it most of the time).
I really don't understand wanting to change realistic gunnery (in terms of "if you can get bullets on a target they damage the target"). Seems to me like it's just a way to blame someone else for your mistake (getting in front of said guns). I hear folks really getting worked up over HO's, Hordes or some other "lame" behavior that somehow was the sole cause of them being shot down. Sounds like they are finding a way to justify being shot down by someone who they feel is clearly a much less talented player so it's either luck, hordes or just "lame" behavior in general. By its very nature the MA results in the possiblity of being shot down by anyone at anytime. That's part of the fun.
I guess after we put some shield or another on the front we need one on the bottom of the plane because it ain't fair since we can't see a enemy from the bottom. Then we'll need one on the sides because someone will get killed from that aspect...then we need some on the back because I might get killed there too.
Avoiding the HO is easy and finding out how to do it is easy. There are any number of comments in this thread alone giving advice on it. Some methods are good some not so good. I love to see some guy turn towards me and start firing from 1k away. That means easy fight...like not even try real hard to win cause it's so easy. Turning the fight your way in the intial merge vs an enemy going for the HO is easy...like dead in 1.5 turns easy many times. If your dying to them do some research and then practice what you read, find someone and go to the TA or DA and set it up.
One other thing...remember that lag makes things look slightly different on your computer vs their computer at times. So I'm gonna bet that unless it's one of those deals where your seeing rounds flying your way at 600-1k they may be seeing you trying to do an early turn and actually firing at your belly. By going to the DA or TA with someone and filming the encounters you can sometimes get a better idea of what works for you in your plane and what doesn't.
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Yeah, you mean like early yesterday morning trying to get through 15 Corsair's of take a guess, and 6 of them trying to HO me on several different occasions, and several times I had 2-3 trying to HO me from separate directions. I survived long enough to auger one of them into the SB. Oh I think one of them was novel and had a N1K up there with them. Please don't get rid of that aspect of the game, it is so fun.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but it was too tempting. Anyhow I'm getting used to it, still frustrates me, yes, but I know who to stay away from these days. If you see two La's up at the same time, that's a clue...
:salute
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Meh, if people can't figure out how not to get 'Merge HO'ed, then that's their problem. It's simple as hell to avoid.
Personally, I think it's a bigger dick move to do BnZ style fighting, but you don't hear me pulling a fit about being BnZed to death.
And if it's in the middle of a turn fight? My objective is to point the front of my aircraft at your aircraft and pull the trigger. I honestly don't care what angle you're facing when I do.
TL:DR - Too many people whinging, get over it. Stop asking for magical armor and force fields in a flight sim.
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If there was a month or year that pilots did not use the Ho technique in WWII I'd say emulate that month\year but ... :old:
EDIT: I don't care about score. Not preoccupied or hypnotized by it etc.
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Yeah, you mean like early yesterday morning trying to get through 15 Corsair's of take a guess, and 6 of them trying to HO me on several different occasions, and several times I had 2-3 trying to HO me from separate directions. I survived long enough to auger one of them into the SB. Oh I think one of them was novel and had a N1K up there with them. Please don't get rid of that aspect of the game, it is so fun.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but it was too tempting. Anyhow I'm getting used to it, still frustrates me, yes, but I know who to stay away from these days. If you see two La's up at the same time, that's a clue...
:salute
1 v 15....probably gonna wind up being a trip to the tower minus a successful landing :). If they remove the HO then your really hard pressed to give any of them the same quick ride. Not saying you shouldn't do this 1 v 15 stuff...we get free planes and it can be fun. I just try not to let these inevitable outcomes frustrate me too much. I'd rather focus on the satisfaction in taking one or two with me when this happens.
Which of the separate directions were HOs?
Same arguement for sarcasm....too tempting.
Sarcasm aside.....removing the part of the game that allows you to hit with guns regardless of the angle reduces not only their effectiveness but your effectiveness also. I mean how bad does it suck to be in a group of 2,3... or 15 attacking one enemy and get shot down by that one enemy. The front quarter shot is likely going to be a big part of the shots available to you because if you go for a saddle or anything resembling a tracking shot that lasts longer than a second your gonna go down fast. It's all snap shots and spending most of your time in rear quarter views while converting the enemies offensive runs into overshoots and taking snapshots as they fly past. The harder they push for the shot, the easier it is to do this.
Take away the ability for front quarter shots and you lose some of your ability to fight back. They don't have an unfair advantage in the ability to make front quarter shots because you also have that ability. This is even more an issue when tangled up with a large number of cons. If it works to your advantage to use it then use it. If it works against you then don't use it. Persisting in using it when it is detrimental just makes it easier for the other guy so I have no complaints about it.
Yes I get damage from it on occasion on the initial merge....usually because I didn't merge just right....stuff happens. But it is rare, it normally is to my advantage when someone pushes for it on the merge. Even in multi-con engagements it is quite possible to avoid the HO and use their insistence on using it against them.
You can't win em all....I can't even win most of em but it makes the wins that much better when it does happen.
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Absolutely not.
If you are getting shot in the face it is ENTIRELY your own fault. Stop flying right at other people.
Do a search for "lead turn". With a proper lead turn you will be hoping that people go for a head on shot.
this ^