Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MrRiplEy[H] on January 12, 2013, 04:15:13 PM
-
How many 37mm field gun hits to frontal armor from D200 does it take to kill a Tiger?
-
One?
:P
-
40570157045782105981304581345 98174057104571249581941056120 54672389462359063452194628935 64389564067258936021456814935 71506921057440570157045782105 98130458134598174057104571249 58194105612054672389462359063 45219462893564389564067258936 02145681493571506921057440570 15704578210598130458134598174 05710457124958194105612054672 38946235906345219462893564389 56406725893602145681493571506 92105744057015704578210598130 45813459817405710457124958194 10561205467238946235906345219 46289356438956406725893602145 68149357150692105744057015704 57821059813045813459817405710 45712495819410561205467238946 23590634521946289356438956406 72589360214568149357150692105 74405701570457821059813045813 45981740571045712495819410561 20546723894623590634521946289 35643895640672589360214568149 35715069210574405701570457821 05981304581345981740571045712 49581941056120546723894623590 63452194628935643895640672589 36021456814935715069210574405 70157045782105981304581345981 74057104571249581941056120546 72389462359063452194628935643 89564067258936021456814935715 06921057440570157045782105981 30458134598174057104571249581 94105612054672389462359063452 19462893564389564067258936021 45681493571506921057440570157 04578210598130458134598174057 10457124958194105612054672389 46235906345219462893564389564 06725893602145681493571506921 0574.1
-
I'm guessing it can't be done. If the M4/75mm AP can not get the job done at 100 yards then I would like to believe that at 200 yards the HE rounds from the 37mm (or is it 40mm?) AA gun can't do it at all.
-
It takes Pi hits but you have to get the decimal correct.
-
I suspect you could track it with many many hits, but never kill it. Now the AP shells from the manned 88 mm are a different story.
-
It takes exactly 6 hits from D600. Works on both frontal and back armor. This probably explains the 'miracle' deaths some have experienced in Tigers and T34:s. If you aim the correct spot you can kill them probably even with a pintle gun front and back.
-
I just tried it offline. The 37 mm can track a Tiger I in 16 hits. All other places just bounce and the Tiger never dies. So you have found some magic spot.
Edit: whoa.. you're right. I guess it wouldn't be a good idea to mention where the spot is so I'll leave that out, but it might be an angle problem.
-
I just tried it offline. The 37 mm can track a Tiger I in 16 hits. All other places just bounce and the Tiger never dies. So you have found some magic spot.
Yes, a glitch in the armor probably.
-
It also takes about 6-7 hits to kill a T34 just by hitting the back of the turret using the field gun.
-
Send film to HTC. At Pyro's request I sent in the film of me killing a Tiger II through the front turret with a Panzer IV H and they fixed it promptly.
-
40570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574405701570457821059813045813459817405710457124958194105612054672389462359063452194628935643895640672589360214568149357150692105744057015704578210598130458134598174057104571249581941056120546723894623590634521946289356438956406725893602145681493571506921057440570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574405701570457821059813045813459817405710457124958194105612054672389462359063452194628935643895640672589360214568149357150692105744057015704578210598130458134598174057104571249581941056120546723894623590634521946289356438956406725893602145681493571506921057440570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574405701570457821059813045813459817405710457124958194105612054672389462359063452194628935643895640672589360214568149357150692105744057015704578210598130458134598174057104571249581941056120546723894623590634521946289356438956406725893602145681493571506921057440570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574.1
I asked you never to share my phone number :old:
-
40570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574405701570457821059813045813459817405710457124958194105612054672389462359063452194628935643895640672589360214568149357150692105744057015704578210598130458134598174057104571249581941056120546723894623590634521946289356438956406725893602145681493571506921057440570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574405701570457821059813045813459817405710457124958194105612054672389462359063452194628935643895640672589360214568149357150692105744057015704578210598130458134598174057104571249581941056120546723894623590634521946289356438956406725893602145681493571506921057440570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574405701570457821059813045813459817405710457124958194105612054672389462359063452194628935643895640672589360214568149357150692105744057015704578210598130458134598174057104571249581941056120546723894623590634521946289356438956406725893602145681493571506921057440570157045782105981304581345981740571045712495819410561205467238946235906345219462893564389564067258936021456814935715069210574.1
So that's why I never killed one. I always rounded down, forgot it took an extra .1 shots!
-
Maybe if you hit Driver's Periscope, it gives kill?
Would seem so.
:cheers: Oz
-
Maybe if you hit Driver's Periscope, it gives kill?
Would seem so.
:cheers: Oz
No, it's a clear glitch in the armor. I sent a video to HTC for fixing. If I was nasty I'd go around killing Tigers in an osty :D
-
The trick is to shoot it right down the barrel or right thru the drivers view slot. :aok
-
The trick is to shoot it right down the barrel or right thru the drivers view slot. :aok
Nope. The bug I talk about works from both rear and front and most likely in every type of tank in the game. I'm not going to detail it before HTC fixes it, then I'll post the video :)
-
Update: Did some more testing and this thing definately works only when on field guns. Ostwind couldn't scratch the Tiger from the same position.
-
Is it at every range or just close range? Not that big of a deal...seeing as how field guns get owned by tanks sitting 2K away.
-
Is it at every range or just close range? Not that big of a deal...seeing as how field guns get owned by tanks sitting 2K away.
I could test it from D200 and D600 but I can confirm that I've killed tanks using the field gun much longer away. I just didn't realize that even Tigers could be so weak against it if you hit the right spot.
The spot is wide but maybe a few pixels tall so further away it will be increasingly hard to repeatedly hit it.
-
I asked you never to share my phone number :old:
At least I didn't include the area code :old:
So that's why I never killed one. I always rounded down, forgot it took an extra .1 shots!
Newb!
-
Yesterday I confirmed that M8 with AP shells can actually kill a Tiger the same way as the field gun can, with just 4 hits. There are two 'soft' positions which you can hit, others just bounce.
-
If this is true, I really hope HTC fixes this bug. Some things just shouldnt happen.
-
If this is true, I really hope HTC fixes this bug. Some things just shouldnt happen.
The problem is not a big one - you need to hit a piece of the tank that's maybe a few pixels tall. Practically impossible to do repeatedly if the enemy moves or there's typical combat distance. If you manage to sneak behind a Tiger then it's a whole different story though :)
-
The problem is not a big one - you need to hit a piece of the tank that's maybe a few pixels tall. Practically impossible to do repeatedly if the enemy moves or there's typical combat distance. If you manage to sneak behind a Tiger then it's a whole different story though :)
Really? Because in another thread a guy was 10 foot away in a M8 shooting at the rear of a tiger and nothing.... :headscratch:
M8 vs Tiger thread
-
Really? Because in another thread a guy was 10 foot away in a M8 shooting at the rear of a tiger and nothing.... :headscratch:
M8 vs Tiger thread
If you know where to shoot the Tiger blows up from 4 hits with M8. Hit literally any other spot and the round bounces.
-
2 questions: is it reasonable for a T34 (85) to one-shot a Tiger 1 from 12:00? (about 11-1200)
The Panther: is it not supposed to have incredibly thick frontal armor? I'm forever losing these things from to frontal shots
-
2 questions: is it reasonable for a T34 (85) to one-shot a Tiger 1 from 12:00? (about 11-1200)
The Panther: is it not supposed to have incredibly thick frontal armor? I'm forever losing these things from to frontal shots
I've always maintained that there are 2 trump cards in the tank game that most people forget about: range and angle of impact. Also, while the data of the AP make state something the one thing that is not made mention of is the ability of the round to cause damage once it defeats the armor. A person can do everything right "on paper" and somehow in game it does not add up. Case in point is the T34/85, that thing on paper has an AP behind the Panzer IV H, M4/76mm (and M18), and only a few mm ahead of the Panzer IV F/2, yet is is able to pull off some amazing shots, certainly the weight of the projectile has something to do with it.
The Panther is actually safer vs some tanks up close (1000 yd) vs further away (1600-2000). Why? Angle of impact. Take a look at the Panther's frontal armor. It is 80mm thick. The Panzer IV also has 80mm frontal armor. However, the Panther's armor is sloped back at an angle which facilitates 2 things: it allows for a great chance of deflection and it artificially thickens the armor. When the Panther is closer and the trajectory of the incoming round is more flat the round has a better chance of being deflected. But back the Panther up to 1600-2000 yards and increase the trajectory and the angle of impact is much closer to 90° that what it was at 1000 yards. At some point the incoming rounds are not going to be able to defeat 80mm of armor and when that happens the Panther is in its "safe" zone. It certainly is not always as easy as "tank A vs tank B".
At 2000 yards the Panzer IV H can defeat 98mm of armor. At 1000 yards the same tank can defeat 115mm of armor. If I'm in a Panther I'd rather take a few hits to my hull from 1000 yards than 2000 yards, more often than not the incoming rounds go skyward.
-
SmokinLoon, like this?
(http://www.telemail.fi/petrin.atk-apu/Angle_of_Impact.GIF)
-
I noticed this too, hitting the frontal armor on a tiger using an osti, all shots bounce off, I actually ended up turreting myself in the process by being hit with a ricochet :noid
EXCEPT, there is a spot on the frontal armor of a tiger where the shots do penetrate. I didn't test the rear and I was shooting almost point blank.
-
The problem is not a big one - you need to hit a piece of the tank that's maybe a few pixels tall. Practically impossible to do repeatedly if the enemy moves or there's typical combat distance. If you manage to sneak behind a Tiger then it's a whole different story though :)
Where is this fabled "weak spot" that's pixels tall on a tiger that is vulnerable to an M8?
I posted a thread M8 vs tiger not long ago. In it I provided a sweet pic of me bouncing 10+ rounds off the rear hull and rear turret of a tiger from 10ft away.
-
On a Panther, get in your M3/75 and aim for that little door at the back, takes like two shots :x
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cQ5xvKcD95Y/UNSXF7ut4SI/AAAAAAAAB5k/Phb7M-7Pl8g/s1152/Gadwin311.jpg)
-
m3 has same gun as the M4 75mm sherman (penetration charts confirm this 91-0k... 80-1k... 70-2k)
so u dont need a rear shot to kill a panther in an M3...(side and chin will do it as well, within 2 shots)
also panthers are weak compared to tigers, especially in the sides and rear
-
I've always maintained that there are 2 trump cards in the tank game that most people forget about: range and angle of impact. Also, while the data of the AP make state something the one thing that is not made mention of is the ability of the round to cause damage once it defeats the armor. A person can do everything right "on paper" and somehow in game it does not add up. Case in point is the T34/85, that thing on paper has an AP behind the Panzer IV H, M4/76mm (and M18), and only a few mm ahead of the Panzer IV F/2, yet is is able to pull off some amazing shots, certainly the weight of the projectile has something to do with it.
The Panther is actually safer vs some tanks up close (1000 yd) vs further away (1600-2000). Why? Angle of impact. Take a look at the Panther's frontal armor. It is 80mm thick. The Panzer IV also has 80mm frontal armor. However, the Panther's armor is sloped back at an angle which facilitates 2 things: it allows for a great chance of deflection and it artificially thickens the armor. When the Panther is closer and the trajectory of the incoming round is more flat the round has a better chance of being deflected. But back the Panther up to 1600-2000 yards and increase the trajectory and the angle of impact is much closer to 90° that what it was at 1000 yards. At some point the incoming rounds are not going to be able to defeat 80mm of armor and when that happens the Panther is in its "safe" zone. It certainly is not always as easy as "tank A vs tank B".
At 2000 yards the Panzer IV H can defeat 98mm of armor. At 1000 yards the same tank can defeat 115mm of armor. If I'm in a Panther I'd rather take a few hits to my hull from 1000 yards than 2000 yards, more often than not the incoming rounds go skyward.
Has that been tested with data from the game? In theory those factors matter, but wouldn't the velocity drop of a projectile that followed a trajectory leading to 90 deg angle at impact be too slow to penetrate 80mm of armor? At table showing the angle at impact of the incoming round with corresponding velocities, by distance fired (both on level ground) would be helpfull. I could make one up from first principles, but I'll bet the gunnery fellas in here have something already.
Thoughts?
-
m3 has same gun as the M4 75mm sherman (penetration charts confirm this 91-0k... 80-1k... 70-2k)
so u dont need a rear shot to kill a panther in an M3...(side and chin will do it as well, within 2 shots)
also panthers are weak compared to tigers, especially in the sides and rear
I usually stay behind them simply because their coax can put you in the tower quite fast.
It's always taken two hits to the 6'oclock at PBR to kill a Panther.
-
Has that been tested with data from the game? In theory those factors matter, but wouldn't the velocity drop of a projectile that followed a trajectory leading to 90 deg angle at impact be too slow to penetrate 80mm of armor? At table showing the angle at impact of the incoming round with corresponding velocities, by distance fired (both on level ground) would be helpfull. I could make one up from first principles, but I'll bet the gunnery fellas in here have something already.
Thoughts?
depends on penetration the round has at impact distance. at 1k an m3/m4 sherman can penetrate 80mm. it also has a low velocity so it has a better chance of impacting at 90degrees on sloped armour
-
I'm sure the thing that killed my panther was an HVAP.....but at 1k or so, would seem the trajectory is nearly flat, thus maximum amount of armor to penetrate. I'm starting to question the use of the panther at all....they seem to die quite easily from ALL directions,...the Tiger 1 is twice the point risk, but at least it can take a few hits
-
Where is this fabled "weak spot" that's pixels tall on a tiger that is vulnerable to an M8?
I posted a thread M8 vs tiger not long ago. In it I provided a sweet pic of me bouncing 10+ rounds off the rear hull and rear turret of a tiger from 10ft away.
I'll show it after it gets patched.
-
I'm starting to question the use of the panther at all....they seem to die quite easily from ALL directions,...the Tiger 1 is twice the point risk, but at least it can take a few hits
If you look at the K/D's over the past tours, the Tiger I dies much, much more often than the Panther, despite being used more defensively (= more near concrete) due to it's higher perk cost. Last tour for example, the Panther had K/D 4.46, the Tiger I 2.29. In AH, that's literally worlds apart. Especially if you take into account the much higher usage of the Panther.
It's the combination of factors that make the Panther such a great tank in AH. Very powerful gun, reasonable armor, high mobility, good turret traverse rate. In contrast to that, the Tiger I is more limited by it's slower speed and very much by it's slow turret traverse.
-
Has that been tested with data from the game? In theory those factors matter, but wouldn't the velocity drop of a projectile that followed a trajectory leading to 90 deg angle at impact be too slow to penetrate 80mm of armor? At table showing the angle at impact of the incoming round with corresponding velocities, by distance fired (both on level ground) would be helpfull. I could make one up from first principles, but I'll bet the gunnery fellas in here have something already.
Thoughts?
Deflection is a bigger issue than AP. In the case of the Panther's front hull this is the case more often than not. Like I pointed out earlier, take a buddy in to the DA and 1 up a Panther and the other up various tanks and start from 600 yards and work your way back to 2000 yards. You will find that vs the M4/76 the Panther will do very well up close from 400-800 yards, and from 1600 yards back. In the case of the M4/76mm at 1600 yards vs the Panther the AP ability and trajectory both behind the curve and unless everything is perfect for the M4/76 it is going to have a very difficult time defeating the Panther from the front. In your testing, do your best to get the incoming round to be a direct head on hit from the front and let the armor speak for itself. At the closer ranges the rounds will ricochet or defeat the armor. At longer ranges 1 of 3 things can happen (ricochet, be absorbed, or defeat the armor).
I've done quite a bit of testing in the DA with squad members testing out the better armored tanks vs various AP rounds. The King Tiger and Tiger are truly the kings of the battlefield in terms of armor, and the Panther is close behind in terms of frontal hull armor at particular ranges (front turret armor on Panther is every bit as good as Tiger). When I am sitting at 2000 yards from an group of enemy tanks, I almost have no fear if I'm in a Tiger or Panther. Only the KT (extremely rare away from a defending gv base), the Firefly (rare in general), the Panther (less common), and Tiger (less common), are only a threat thanks to 2 factors: sights and AP ability. If T34/85 engages me at 2000 yards he truly is peeing in the wind because he can barely see me. The Panzer IV's and M4/76 and M18 are a threat thanks to their AP round, but it is like expecting a lightweight boxer to throw a knockout punch vs a heavyweight boxer, meaning the impact needs to be very close to °90 for their round to defeat the Panther's front hull armor, and the Tiger has 102mm frontal armor so it is safe regardless.
I'll take this time again to invite anyone to PM me their email and I will forward on them a spreadsheet showing gv data, it make be helpful to a great many people. It has info showing AP ability, HE ability, rate of fire, turret traverse speeds, turning radius, acceleration speeds, armor, MG's, smoke ability, ammo capacity, etc, etc. It is in .pdf form and any and everyone can pass it around and post it where ever they'd like.
-
Curiosity question about the metal boxes I wait to die in. I see by some of the posts it taking multiple shots to kill different tanks. I assume this means 2 shots that penetrate the armor.
If shots don't penetrate, do they have any effect on the tank/armor at all? Put another way, suppose I come up on a tank and shoot at it. At the range and angle of my shot, it bounces off. If everything stays still and I keep firing at that identical point, can I run my entire clip into it without affecting it? It's just something I've always been curious about and never seen mentioned.
Wiley.
-
Curiosity question about the metal boxes I wait to die in. I see by some of the posts it taking multiple shots to kill different tanks. I assume this means 2 shots that penetrate the armor.
If shots don't penetrate, do they have any effect on the tank/armor at all? Put another way, suppose I come up on a tank and shoot at it. At the range and angle of my shot, it bounces off. If everything stays still and I keep firing at that identical point, can I run my entire clip into it without affecting it? It's just something I've always been curious about and never seen mentioned.
Wiley.
I'm not sure. Some say that there are "hit points" to a piece of armor, and some say not. I know that in real like the chances of an AP round hitting exactly in the same place twice is slim and none. Also, keep in mind that HE and AP affect gv's in different ways. ;)
-
Curiosity question about the metal boxes I wait to die in. I see by some of the posts it taking multiple shots to kill different tanks. I assume this means 2 shots that penetrate the armor.
If shots don't penetrate, do they have any effect on the tank/armor at all? Put another way, suppose I come up on a tank and shoot at it. At the range and angle of my shot, it bounces off. If everything stays still and I keep firing at that identical point, can I run my entire clip into it without affecting it? It's just something I've always been curious about and never seen mentioned.
Wiley.
When the round bounces there's either very small damage being done or no damage, hard to tell. You'll spend the whole day killing someone with bouncing shots anyway.
-
When the round bounces there's either very small damage being done or no damage, hard to tell. You'll spend the whole day killing someone with bouncing shots anyway.
True, but if there is a little damage from a bounce, them the next thing that hits you has a better chance of breaking something or killing you. Thus even after a bounce, its a good idea to use sups...which I'm not really in favor of
-
True, but if there is a little damage from a bounce, them the next thing that hits you has a better chance of breaking something or killing you. Thus even after a bounce, its a good idea to use sups...which I'm not really in favor of
But the odds of a person hitting the exact same spot is slim and none especially if the ranges are longer. I for one do not panic once I've taken a hit and it is deflected, some players start begging like a little girl in a doll shop for someone to bring them gv supplies to "fix" their armor.
-
I would think the whole sloped plate of a panther counts as the same spot. I hate when people use sups for no real reason.
-
I found it, but my lips are sealed. :D
-
I would think the whole sloped plate of a panther counts as the same spot. I hate when people use sups for no real reason.
That's what I would expect, considering how the planes work. It would probably be a real bear to test because getting exactly the same angle every time would be tricky. I was just wondering if it was a somewhat common knowledge thing among tankers.
The way I think it works is, no penetration=no damage at all, so theoretically you could sit there all day. Additionally, it would seem to me if it takes more than one penetrating round to kill the tank, you could damage it once, then bounce rounds off it again all day from the wrong angle with no additional effect.
The reason it interests me is, every single other game I've ever seen you chip away at armor, then you kill the squishy thing inside. I just find it an interesting difference if it works the way I think it does, and I think it might explain a lot of things people complain about.
Wiley.
-
The way I think it works is, no penetration=no damage at all
Correct.
HiTech
-
The way I think it works is, no penetration=no damage at all,
Hey, NO still means NO.
-
Thanks for the films. I reviewed them and all the hits were legit and not the result of a bug. Your side shot into the Tiger achieved penetration because the side armor on the lower hull is thinner than the side armor on the superstructure. You can see this in the armor chart in the hangar. Normally this shot first hits the treads which doesn't leave enough energy for the 37mm to continue through to penetrate the side armor. Your shot was able to sneak through the space between the treads and the superstructure putting all the energy straight into the lower side armor with no obliquity.
On the Achilles's heel of the Tiger, take a look at this drawing. The "heel" at which you shot is a small but potentially vulnerable target if you don't have enough penetration to get through the rear armor.
(http://downloads1.hitechcreations.com/pyro/tigerdrawing.JPG)
-
And how the #¤&&#%&!# caramba should supplies fix that armour ? one of the most gamey things I've heard in this game, if this is true.
Planes needs to re-plane to fix their damage in AH like RL. In battlefield-repair except for tracks is almost impossible on a tank, and should be so in AH too.
But the odds of a person hitting the exact same spot is slim and none especially if the ranges are longer. I for one do not panic once I've taken a hit and it is deflected, some players start begging like a little girl in a doll shop for someone to bring them gv supplies to "fix" their armor.
-
Airplanes supplies, dropped within range of damaged ac so they can get back to land kills... drop fuel, or supps... sounds good to me! :aok
-
Thanks for the films. I reviewed them and all the hits were legit and not the result of a bug. Your side shot into the Tiger achieved penetration because the side armor on the lower hull is thinner than the side armor on the superstructure. You can see this in the armor chart in the hangar. Normally this shot first hits the treads which doesn't leave enough energy for the 37mm to continue through to penetrate the side armor. Your shot was able to sneak through the space between the treads and the superstructure putting all the energy straight into the lower side armor with no obliquity.
On the Achilles's heel of the Tiger, take a look at this drawing. The "heel" at which you shot is a small but potentially vulnerable target if you don't have enough penetration to get through the rear armor.
(http://downloads1.hitechcreations.com/pyro/tigerdrawing.JPG)
Surprising to say the least but that does explain it. Although I'd never believe a Tiger of all things could be penetrated by 37mm from the side.
-
As promised, here's a video of hitting the achilles heel of the Tiger for those interested:
http://youtu.be/eub28U08nK0
-
As promised, here's a video of hitting the achilles heel of the Tiger for those interested:
http://youtu.be/eub28U08nK0
Not very useful for me MrRiplEy. Do you realise how low I'd have to fly to get that shot! :old:
-
Yep, that's the spot, killed tiger with M8 muahahaha :D