Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: The Fugitive on January 16, 2013, 03:11:21 PM
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I have an Asrock Z77 extreme 4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157293) mother board. All of a sudden it starts running like I'm only on one cylinder. It moves slow, has a very hard time accessing the drives and so on. The last time I did this I rebooted and it stalled with an error 64. Looking up the error someone said they had an issue with a bent pin on the CPU socket. I had my son look ( better eyes) and he found 3. Using a needle he twisted them back in shape and I put it all back together and it booted no problem. I've been running it a week or so and it is doing it again.
So now I'm thinking I should buy a new motherboard (this one is well out of warranty). Replacing the MB is going to mean a re-install of win7 correct? The board I have is rated highly at Newegg, should I get the same board and hope my issues were a fluke? Should I get a different board? Looking at THIS ONE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131823).
Any tips or help would be appreciated.
EDIT: changed the one I was looking at, didn't notice it was a micro.
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the second one you listed is a micro mobo which is a lot small er than what you have right now. if it was me I would stick with a full size.
midway
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Fugi
I have the EVGA Z77 FTW http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188120&Tpk=z77%20ftw and I must say it rocks... I have had absoulutly no problems with it and it looks nice in my rig. Just a little expensive but worth every penny.
LawnDart
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Well that one is a bit out of my price range. The last few computer we built around here all had ASUS boards in them and we never had any trouble. I found one for a few dollars more that has more room to grow. I think I'll get that one.
The other issue is how much trouble am I going to have switching it over? I never just changed a MB. I've always added/upgraded video, ram, sound cards power supplies, but when it was time to swap out a MB I usually was rebuilding the whole thing.
Any little gremlins I should prepare for?
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check your cpu make sure thal is not the reason the pins are bent. check where you hd will hook up some mobos are picky about it.
midway
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You have to reinstall the OS, different board, . One thing I noticed is the USB 3 ports won't work untill the drivers are in. I used the USB 2.0 ports for my mouse and keyboard while installing OS and drivers. I use USB wireless keyboard and mouse, your situation may be different.
Good Luck.
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Reinstalling the OS would probably be the best solution in the long run, but: If your current setup is either unstable or unbearably slow to safely get your valuables to another media (i.e. an external hard disk), in many cases you might be able to get a running system even without a reinstall. A regular surfer might not see any difference, whereas a heavy gamer might see some lack of performance.
The trick is to remove all the old motherboard devices. That can be done assisted by a Microsoft code in the Device Manager. I have compiled a small script to simplify the process, just copy and paste the three lines below to Notepad, save the file as 'devices.bat' and run it as an administrator. It will open the Device Manager with the opportunity to see non-present devices (=your old mobo) when you choose 'Show hidden devices' in the Options menu. Just remove everything that is greyed.
@echo off
devmgr_show_nonpresent_device s=1
start devmgmt.msc
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Well most of my stuff is on an external drive, only the things I was using often were on the internal. The computer would just stop, the mouse would be ok, but what ever was up would go to "not responding". these freezes would last a second or so to 5-6 and then it would work again. I had the stock cooler on the CPU as I had no intention of over clocking it.... yet :devil It was one of those that has the plastic split points that go through the board and an insert that expands it in the hole on the MB to attach it. While I don't bounce the computer around I never liked the way is attached. I think the weight was twisting the heat sink and maybe twisting the CPU in its socket. With the pins being out of alignment that little bit was enough to cause the issue.
So I ordered a new cooler as well. Thanks for the "bat" file, I run it once I'm up and running again.
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Well most of my stuff is on an external drive, only the things I was using often were on the internal. The computer would just stop, the mouse would be ok, but what ever was up would go to "not responding". these freezes would last a second or so to 5-6 and then it would work again. I had the stock cooler on the CPU as I had no intention of over clocking it.... yet :devil It was one of those that has the plastic split points that go through the board and an insert that expands it in the hole on the MB to attach it. While I don't bounce the computer around I never liked the way is attached. I think the weight was twisting the heat sink and maybe twisting the CPU in its socket. With the pins being out of alignment that little bit was enough to cause the issue.
So I ordered a new cooler as well. Thanks for the "bat" file, I run it once I'm up and running again.
Freezing like that may point to harddrive problems. If your mouse moves but the applications fail to respond it may be due to not being able to access the drive. Have you tested your hdd for errors? Of course if the cpu pins are bent that may explain everything.
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If it is hard drive, you can see the errors being logged in the Windows Event Viewer, under Administrator Tools.
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When it started acting up yesterday I tried many things, and for the most part it would stall. Most of my "test" programs are on the external drive and I couldn't access it. When I rebooted it I got the error 64 again, and it won't boot. I'm pretty sure its the MB, from all that I've researched. I do have a spare drive if that turns out to be the case after I put the new board in.
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Fugi - just installed that same motherboard on my new build. When i did the external build recommended by Newegg, I got an error code that translated as "looking for scsi device." I did have the asrock screen on my monitor, and after wasting time looking for the "solution" just went ahead with the rest of the build. Same error when all was in the case, but I could go into BIOS, reset the build priority and install Win7. All of a sudden, no error and all is well. Maybe just reinstalling the OS would work?
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Mine ran fine for a little over 4 months. Then it gave me troubles. I pulled it apart and didn't see any thing wrong (old eyes) and put it all back together. It ran for a week or so and did it again. My son looked at it, adjusted the socket pins, and we put it back together. It ran for a few weeks this time. Long enough that I thought we were out of the woods. And then it did it again. I'm still leaning toward that socket issue due to the weight of the cooling fan and heatsink. We'll see.
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The pins in the cpu socket don't bend by themselves, you're totally correct about that. Back in the days of yore AMD told not to exceed 300g while transporting if the heatsink was only held in place by the spring thing. Today, I've know of massive heatsinks triple the weight attached to the motherboard with mere plastic clips. Although, on second thought, the flat surface of the processor doesn't have the tools to bend the pins... Could it be possible that the pins were bent before you installed the CPU? If they have been bent for a long time, they tend to revert to that position. That you've accidentally bent them during the installation is out of the question, of course. ;)
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The pins in the cpu socket don't bend by themselves, you're totally correct about that. Back in the days of yore AMD told not to exceed 300g while transporting if the heatsink was only held in place by the spring thing. Today, I've know of massive heatsinks triple the weight attached to the motherboard with mere plastic clips. Although, on second thought, the flat surface of the processor doesn't have the tools to bend the pins... Could it be possible that the pins were bent before you installed the CPU? If they have been bent for a long time, they tend to revert to that position. That you've accidentally bent them during the installation is out of the question, of course. ;)
Well anything can happen, but I am always very careful around the CPU.... those things ain't cheap ya know. I suspect that it was an issue strait out of the box as I have found a number of tech posts saying others have had the same issue with this board. Well new board should be in today..... if UPS is on time, which will give me all weekend to pull my hair out while installing it :D
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which will give me all weekend to pull my hair out while installing it :D
Prepare yourself with a Gillette, +3 blades make less wounds than the one or two bladed ones. Good luck with the changing procedure, try to have fun. :rock
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Usually if there is any issue with the processor (bent pins, faulty CPU) the PC just simply wont work. It will power on, but you wont go anywhere. You wont get any POST beeps, you wont get anything on your screen. It will just sit there. But they dont go bad oftem. Of the probably 2000 computers I have worked around in the last 6 years I have only seen a processor related problem once.
But this isnt always the case. Sometimes you do get symptoms like you are getting now, so I wouldn't rule out the bent pins as your problem. The only thing is the symptoms you are describing could be other things as well.
The Hard drive was brought up earlier, which is probably the most common reason for issues like the ones you described, and this is probably the first thing I would look into. Check your windows error logs as described earlier and see if you are getting any hard drive read errors under the "Hardware" logs. If you are it's a good chance that is your problem.
Power is also another possibility. The error code 64, as you described, has to do with the CPU on your particular board. If it was your pins, I would think it would throw that error more often than once as once you have the CPU and the heat sink on the socket those pins aren't going to move around. I think if your pins were the problem, you would be getting that error more consistently. I could be wrong of course, I have never dealt with a bent pin issue (knocks on wood).
Power, on the other hand, can do crazy things to a computer. A PSU that is not providing enough juice it can cause memory errors, CPU errors, intermittent hard drive detection errors, etc... Normally if I come to an issue that I cant quite narrow down the problem point, it ends up being the power supply. It's gotten to the point that testing the PSU is the first thing I do when I'm troubleshooting a hardware problem, just to be sure it's operating within spec.
Buy/borrow a Power supply tester, they go for about 20 bucks depending on what you get and are very handy troubleshooting tools. Make sure your voltages are all good. If they aren't, replace.
When it comes down to it though, I would probably end up looking for a new motherboard sometime soon anyway. Bent pins can mean the difference between a high quality motherboard and an expensive piece of techie garbage. Not to mention the slight chance of damaging your CPU.
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A few month ag my comp starting having problems like this then finally I could hear the fan on the psu spooling up and down rapidly and then just shut down. I took out that psu and tried another one and NADA no signs of life. Welll here several months later I have gotten new everything. MB, PSU, Hard drive(I RMA'd this) only thing I have not replaced is the CPU. I put all the new stuff in and I still get nothing. no beeps not a thing. If the CPU is bad would that prevent any signs of life?
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A few month ag my comp starting having problems like this then finally I could hear the fan on the psu spooling up and down rapidly and then just shut down. I took out that psu and tried another one and NADA no signs of life. Welll here several months later I have gotten new everything. MB, PSU, Hard drive(I RMA'd this) only thing I have not replaced is the CPU. I put all the new stuff in and I still get nothing. no beeps not a thing. If the CPU is bad would that prevent any signs of life?
Yes, mine did have a setting that if the computer lost power during a boot or something, it was to stay in a power off condition.
In the case of my MB, I am posting from my computer with the new MB and CPU cooler in it. All seems to be ok at this time <crosses fingers and prays to the computer gods!> I have all the new drivers and MB programs up and running, and cleaned out everything I could find I don't need. I did get a chance to check the logs....now that it boots, and there wasn't anything for the HD, a couple power errors but those were in the process of trying to get it all back up with the old MB.
So far so good, wish me luck!
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Good point, Ripley. Failing PSU's can indeed cause all symptoms you can imagine and more.
Buy/borrow a Power supply tester, they go for about 20 bucks depending on what you get and are very handy troubleshooting tools. Make sure your voltages are all good. If they aren't, replace.
The $20 testers only can tell if the voltages and the time of Power Good signal. Basically the same information can be found in the Bios settings under the title 'Pc Health Status' or similar, although without the risk of frying the computer with a PSU whose condition is unknown. So basically such a tester is most valuable with used power supplies before installing them, and it can indeed save your computer, making the small investment worthwile.
Why? As you can guess, a $20 pocket size tester can't put any load on the PSU, so you can't really tell if the PSU can feed all the juice thirsty components in a real life situation. I've been told that a reliable tester with adjustable simulated loads would cost about $50000 and up. But, I repeat, a small tester can tell if a PSU is prone to break your system.
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just throwing this out there but one sign that the ps is going out is your sound is messed up.
midway
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Spoke too soon. I went to boot the computer in the morning and I had nothing, like the switch didn't work. I went over everything, testing the switches and made sure I had good voltage TO the power-supply. Disconnected all the plugs and plugged everything back in and it started. OK, figure I had a loose plug some place. Then I noticed the network connection was down. Check that in the device manager and it says that the Intel network connector won't start. I un installed it with every instance of drivers I could find re-booted and the same thing. Got the newest drivers for 64 bit system and still nothing.
So tomorrow, I will totally dis assemble the computer and check every connection, ground, mount, and so I can look at and piece it all together again. Any suggestions on what else I might look at while I'm at it?
Some times I just hate friggin' computers! :bhead
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So, if I have understood everything correctly, you managed to change the motherboard with ease without a total reinstall? And you also removed all hidden non-present devices via the Device Manager? Did you also uninstall all old drivers that might be accessible through the 'Programs and Features'? A registry cleaning with a tool like Ccleaner from Piriform (http://www.piriform.com/ccleaner/download/standard) could do good, too.
It also came to mind that Windows might have got angry about the change of such a critical component and unsubscribed your activation.
Last but not least, if your rig works now in a bearable speed, backup everything that you don't already have and do a clean install of Windows. If it still wouldn't work, the culprit is the motherboard. If you have a spare hdd lying around, you can do a test install, too.
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So, if I have understood everything correctly, you managed to change the motherboard with ease without a total reinstall? And you also removed all hidden non-present devices via the Device Manager? Did you also uninstall all old drivers that might be accessible through the 'Programs and Features'? A registry cleaning with a tool like Ccleaner from Piriform (http://www.piriform.com/ccleaner/download/standard) could do good, too.
I did the device manager clean up but do NOT run a cleaner.
It also came to mind that Windows might have got angry about the change of such a critical component and unsubscribed your activation.
I did get a warning from the windows and redid the activation
Last but not least, if your rig works now in a bearable speed, backup everything that you don't already have and do a clean install of Windows. If it still wouldn't work, the culprit is the motherboard. If you have a spare hdd lying around, you can do a test install, too.
I was talking to a couple people about that and they didn't think windows would be an issue. Today Ill strip the whole thing done and put it all back together. I'm hoping I pinched something or pulled a wire out of a plug or something while routing the cables and such. I'll go over everything and give it another go. "IF" it runs after that I'll run the cleaner on it.
Thanks again.
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I was talking to a couple people about that and they didn't think windows would be an issue. Today Ill strip the whole thing done and put it all back together. I'm hoping I pinched something or pulled a wire out of a plug or something while routing the cables and such. I'll go over everything and give it another go. "IF" it runs after that I'll run the cleaner on it.
Concerning the startup problem, that certainly is no Windows issue. The network issue on the other hand might well be due to mixed drivers, forgive me for bypassing the starting problem. My former advice was solely pointed to the netcard problem.
So, you said it was like the switch wasn't working. How did you test the switches? I've seen a brand new HP with a broken switch. Booted for a couple or times, then only occasionally, usually after taking the front panel and the switch apart. You do know the startup button is a shortcut switch, don't you? Meaning you can detach it from the motherboard and connect the two pins with the tip of a screwdriver, or any metal object for that matter. GPU and RAM problems can prevent starting, but AFAIK the fans would spin and the beeper would make funny sounds if either of them were the culprit. -The P8Z77-V LE seems to have a built in video card, which is good for testing if your video card or the pci-e slot has issues.
For the wiring part, the only wires you'd need for booting up are the 24 pin ATX connector, the 8 pin CPU connector and the power connector to your video card. There's some difference between the 8 pin CPU and GPU connectors cabling wise. I believe they can't be misplaced, but you'd better check. I've seen modular PSU's with dedicated slots for GPU wires, although they could be connected to any of them.
The best tool to test a faulty PSU is a $20 tester, discussed in another thread, but you can check if it won't start at all with this simple trick: Detach all wires from the motherboard and other devices. Plug the PSU into the mains. Nothing should happen. Shortcut the green wire to a black one in the 24 pin ATX connector with a piece of wire or even a paper clip. The fan should spin.
Good luck!
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Sounds like you need a new PSU. One of my computers had a crappy 430W PSU and it sometimes didn't start at all, then after a few tries it booted up and even worked, but could not hold an overclock. After switching the PSU to XFX Seasonic made 850W model the whole computer transformed. It became dead reliable and could overclock 30% more than before.
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I'm beginning to think this MB is bad. To test the switches I checked them with my multi-meter, and to be sure I used another set of switches, same problem. You hit the switch and nothing happens, just like the unit is unplugged. No fans twitch, nothing. After the tear down and re assemble ( I found two stand offs that were the "through the board" type and replaced them with flush mounts) The computer started fine. I shut it down and restarted it with the on button a half dozen times. I then dug into the network issue with no resolution other than to buy a ethernet card and try using that instead (should have it today or tomorrow).
I have this power supply.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139031
It is only 7 months old and when the computer is running the voltages look good in the monitoring software.
As of this morning, the computer will again not start with the on button, completely dead. :cry
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I'm beginning to think MrRipley might be right. Or that you both might be right.
I just called a friend who is very skilled with electronics and does a lot of PSU and mobo repairs. His comment about Corsair PSU's was: "I wouldn't like to lay my hands on any of that crap anymore. The circuit board is like crisp bread and the capacitors, unless specifically told being japanese, tend to age fast especially if the PSU takes care of the computer's ventilation." And about new Asus and Asrock mobos: "Those with the newest, still unstable Intel circuitry with some Marvell controller chips are a PITA, the third one (Asus) he got works reasonably well, although not perfectly stable."
Don't shoot the messenger, please... :bolt:
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I'm beginning to think MrRipley might be right. Or that you both might be right.
I just called a friend who is very skilled with electronics and does a lot of PSU and mobo repairs. His comment about Corsair PSU's was: "I wouldn't like to lay my hands on any of that crap anymore. The circuit board is like crisp bread and the capacitors, unless specifically told being japanese, tend to age fast especially if the PSU takes care of the computer's ventilation."
Don't shoot the messenger, please... :bolt:
Several of the Corsair PSU's (but not all) are built by Seasonic who currently builds some of the most reliable PSU's on the market. Somewhere around here theres a link to a chart that lists all available PSU's and the actual manufacturer.
Not shooting the messanger, just trying to set the record straight for the less informed.
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Several of the Corsair PSU's (but not all) are built by Seasonic who currently builds some of the most reliable PSU's on the market. Somewhere around here theres a link to a chart that lists all available PSU's and the actual manufacturer.
Not shooting the messanger, just trying to set the record straight for the less informed.
Yes, I know Seasonic has a very good reputation. Although, when I asked about them, my friend said that he has seen poor examples of them, too. Whom can you trust these days? :(
The "somewhere" is e.g. the UL certification number databasehttp://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.htm (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.htm), the FCC search tools http://transition.fcc.gov/searchtools.html (http://transition.fcc.gov/searchtools.html) seem a little trickier to me.
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I'm beginning to think this MB is bad. To test the switches I checked them with my multi-meter, and to be sure I used another set of switches, same problem. You hit the switch and nothing happens, just like the unit is unplugged. No fans twitch, nothing. After the tear down and re assemble ( I found two stand offs that were the "through the board" type and replaced them with flush mounts) The computer started fine. I shut it down and restarted it with the on button a half dozen times. I then dug into the network issue with no resolution other than to buy a ethernet card and try using that instead (should have it today or tomorrow).
I have this power supply.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139031
It is only 7 months old and when the computer is running the voltages look good in the monitoring software.
As of this morning, the computer will again not start with the on button, completely dead. :cry
If the software you are using to watch voltages is running real-time, Voltages shouldnt fluctuate much at all. If you are seeing voltage fluctuations of .5v or more there's a problem there. If the ground in the power supply (or one of the grounding screws in the case) is causing an issue you could see the random boot issues you are having as well.
From a real-life-experience standpoint, years ago I had an old emachine computer that would only boot when it wanted to boot. Sometimes you press the power button it would boot fine, sometimes it wouldnt do anything at all. A few months later it stopped working altogether. What was it? Power supply.
Bizman, from what I gather, sounds rather experienced in this field as he's already stated a few things that I didn't know myself (like using a wire or paper clip to make a fan on the power supply spin, thanks for that) so I would take his info to heart as well. But if you ask me, I still think your power supply is the issue here. From what gather I can say its a power issue with confidence, but the question is whether it is with the cabling, the power supply, the motherboard, Or MAYBE a grounding issue with the case. You said that you have the new motherboard in your case now, right? The chances of two separate motherboards having problems back-to-back are relatively slim.
What about cabling? Are you plugged right into the wall? a UPS? power strip? extension cable? While these things very rarely cause any problems, I did hear of one case where the power strip one user was using was very old and not putting out the required power for his computer to function properly. As I'm no expert at the electrical side of things, I only offer that as a suggestion because I have heard of it happening.
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OK, heres how it stands at the moment...... I know ya'll can't wait to hear :D
I borrowed a PSU from my son. I put it all together and the computer booted up. I ran the installer/driver program for the on-board network card and low and behold, it installed the driver turned on and I can now log on to the internet. It's early in the testing. but It did boot and load, so we are ahead of where I was this morning.
I'll keep at it and let you know how it goes.
Thanks again for all the suggestions. :aok
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OK, I ran some stress tests on it last night. I shut it down, let it sit, and rebooted a number of times. The voltages are steady with an occasional 2/100 of a volt fluctuation on the +5 volt line when I work it. It pretty much took everything I can think of to throw at it. I shut it down last night and it fired up this morning with ease. So I maybe <knocks on wood> out of the woods.
So I'm thinking the issues I had with the old MB may have strained the PSU. When I added the new MB the PSU decided then was the time to finally quit. Would it be so tough for a PSU company to add a number of LED's on the final output of the PSU to show when there was power there. Could they also add one more LED and have it tie into a +5 spot on the MB? This way trouble shooting would be so much quicker and easier.
On our video game systems everything was much easier to get to. Main control boards had voltage test points on them, PSU had open connector areas were you could easily test them. Same with the pinball machines as well. Oh well, I miss the good old days.
Well after I clean the snow out of the driveway I guess I'll get the RMA going for the bad PSU, and do some flying to see how it holds up.
Thanks again for all the tips and help. <S>
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Your guesses about which component broke the other are as good as mine. A shortcut inside the motherboard's circuitry board may have caused the PSU to fail, or the PSU may have produced so much ripple (which can't be seen with a multimeter, you'd need an oscilloscope) that it caused the mobo to fail. Or both have been monday builds.
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SO here's the latest fun..... After I swapped out the PSU with a used one the computer loaded fine, ran fine, I even flew for a few hours with it. I RMAed the old PSU and figured I'm out of the woods.
This morning I go to boot the computer and it stops in it's POST.... or seems to. The memory passes, the CPU passes, and the video passes (all according to the LEDs on the MB) when it hits the "boot device" it stops.... or seems to. I double and triple check everything, even throw in a different HD to see if thats it, nothing. So I boot it again, it has the ASUS screen with the "Hit F2 or Delete to enter the setup mode on the screen and is stopped on the boot device LED again. I leave it there and start hunting for answers on my wifes computer at the other desk. 15 minutes later out of the corner of my eye I catch the screen go to the "Windows did not start properly...." screen. I tried to get it to go into the test modes and resets, but it seemed to lock up.
I cleared the CMOS, checked everything again and booted it again. Again it seemed to lock up, but I waited. 15 minutes later it went to the windows didn't load...." screen again, so this time I switched it to load windows normally and eventually it loaded. Total boot time from pushing the button to everything loaded and working .... 55 minutes!!!
The kicker is the thing runs like it doesn't have any problems. I'm thinking running it for those few days on the original (bad PSU) may have damaged the MB. Anyone else ever seen this, or know anything about a 55 minute boot cycle?
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A power supply, going bad, can damage every electronic device in a computer. The damage may be subtle, depending on the component.
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A while back, when Windows encountered a problem, it would slow the HDD down one notch. Until lately it was easy to check in the Device Manager, Primary IDE Channel, Advanced Settings. If the Transfer mode was PIO instead of DMA , or the current transfer mode was below Ultra-DMA 5 or 6 for the hard disk, that would be the culprit of a slow machine. The easy fix was to remove the Primary IDE channel, reboot and let Windows reinstall it with correct values. The same can of course be done with SATA devices. If that doesn't do the trick, I'd backup everything valuable and then run a hdd diagnose test.