Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: jeffdn on January 22, 2013, 03:40:03 PM
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Two nights ago, at about 2:30 AM Pacific, the Bishops had a huge ENY while the Knights and the Rooks didn't. This is not an uncommon occurrence. The issue, however, is that it would appear that the ENY is based on the number of players that are logged in, not the number of people playing at any given time. I've attached a screenshot below of the "country status" tab that conveniently depicts what I'm talking about, as there were exactly 100 people logged in at the time. The ENY ended up getting even higher before I logged, but the percentages shown are definitely not derived from the "in flight" number, and the ENY thus is not representative of the actual in-game scenario.
The majority of this problem seems to stem from people so desperate for 25 extra perk points that they might get if the war is won overnight that they leave their account logged in and in the tower at one of the "un-takeable" fields. At first, I wasn't sure if they were just ignoring me, or actually not playing, but I sat and watched in the tower for a while, and then when one of my squadmates did it, I knew that I was right.
The possible solutions that I've seen discussed are 1) to kick players after an hour of straight of sitting in the tower, 2) to prevent players that have been inactive for an hour or more from receiving "you won the war" perk points, or 3) to simply alter the ENY calculation from a percentage based on logged in to a percentage based on the number in flight.
:salute
(http://i.imgur.com/utvSzCA.jpg)
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With all due respect, a 14.4 is not any sort of an ENY that would restrict a player in any way other than not being able to take a few crutch planes.
If you cant take your beloved P51D, try the P51B or 190D-9. Cant take the La7? Try the La5 or 109G-14. Is the Spitfire 16 out of reach? Try the Spitfire 9. Dont forget the F6F, P38's, F4U's, 109's, Ki-84 Frank, etc, etc. Oh, and the B29, Me262, or King Tiger... bah.... LOTS of other options.
Do not let ENY stop you from enjoying AH.
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to complain about the 14.4 ENY. The reason I took the screenshot then was because there were exactly 100 people logged in, so it was easy to prove that the percentages weren't based on the "in flight" number, simply by looking at it. The ENY when I logged that night was 22, and the night before it got up to 28. Those are the numbers that would be nice to avoid in the future.
The P-51D is one of my least favorite planes in the game. I don't have any problem flying the planes you mentioned; one of my favorites, the Seafire, has an ENY level of 15. I'm more than happy to take that plane out even with no ENY in the middle of the day. But when the ENY gets past 15, you might as well just play in the mid-war arena.
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The Bishops have mega squads that sit in the tower waiting for the next mission to take off. Change countries and avoid the ENY. Fight the hoard instead of joining them. :old:
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The possible solutions that I've seen discussed are 1) to kick players after an hour of straight of sitting in the tower, 2) to prevent players that have been inactive for an hour or more from receiving "you won the war" perk points, or 3) to simply alter the ENY calculation from a percentage based on logged in to a percentage based on the number in flight.
:salute
The problem is, I'm pretty sure HTC has pretty much said 'never happen' to 1) and 2). Not really sure about the why, but I recall seeing that.
The general counterargument to 3) is it's exploitable by mass launches.
My humble opinion on ENY is it's not that helpful. A horde of ENY 20 or 25 planes is not that much less effective than a horde of ENY 5 planes. If they catch you you'll still have a bad day.
Wiley.
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The Bishops have mega squads that sit in the tower waiting for the next mission to take off. Change countries and avoid the ENY. Fight the hoard instead of joining them. :old:
That's true, but from my experience, ENY instantly updates. You can sit there with an ENY of 5.1 and just a few players on, and as soon as one person logs you're good to go. So, in the situation you describe, as soon as the first two or three people hopped in their 5.0 ENY plane, it would climb above 5 and prevent the rest of the mission joiners from taking planes below that ENY number. It wouldn't be a problem. Even if all those people were sitting in the tower and waiting to up, as soon as a couple of them did, the ENY would start climbing.
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The problem is, I'm pretty sure HTC has pretty much said 'never happen' to 1) and 2). Not really sure about the why, but I recall seeing that.
The general counterargument to 3) is it's exploitable by mass launches.
My humble opinion on ENY is it's not that helpful.
I totally understand on 1 and 2, and I'm sure it has to do with not wanting to punt paying customers.
I can see why people would think that, but in the code, there is no such thing as two things happening simultaneously. They may happen within milliseconds of eachother, but they are two distinct events registered independently by the program. Mass launches should not be a way to get around ENY -- each new player in flight increments it, and the next player that tries to up has the ENY of their selected plane checked against current ENY +1 -- that would be a fix in and of itself.
jeff
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I can see why people would think that, but in the code, there is no such thing as two things happening simultaneously. They may happen within milliseconds of eachother, but they are two distinct events registered independently by the program. Mass launches should not be a way to get around ENY -- each new player in flight increments it, and the next player that tries to up has the ENY of their selected plane checked against current ENY +1 -- that would be a fix in and of itself.
jeff
True. I think you're looking at it from the wrong side though.
Megasquad sits in tower on the other side until your side has upped their high ENY planes because the low numbers in flight on their side mean you have ENY. They then up a schwack of pony D's. Profit.
Wiley.
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True. I think you're looking at it from the wrong side though.
Megasquad sits in tower on the other side until your side has upped their high ENY planes because the low numbers in flight on their side mean you have ENY. They then up a schwack of pony D's. Profit.
Wiley.
OK, now I can see what you're getting at. It is becoming clear to me that perhaps neither the "logged in" nor the "in flight" are an adequate method for calculating ENY. Maybe something like "average number in flight over the last x-period of time" or to mark players as active or inactive depending on if they've left the tower in the last hour. Don't relate it to perk points: if people want to stay towered and collect them, whatever. That way, even though MegaSquad hasn't been playing for ten minutes while they regroup in the tower, the ENY calculator still acknowledges that those players have either been playing for a solid chunk of time in the past hour or so, or that the individuals gathered are all still marked as active. If they want to sit towered for an hour so their sides ENY starts to drop, then that's their prerogative. Most people, however, are itching to re-up, and I think it would be a pretty effective system.
Considering it is a unique (as far as I understand) method for limiting in-game usage of certain vehicles and airplanes, there is no rule stating that it must be determined in some way. The way it is currently calculated is not beneficial to any side affected by it, I've seen the Knights get some pretty unfair ENYs as well. I know the coders are slammed; as a programmer myself, I'd be happy to work on a patch or something. I think it's a fix that would make a lot of customers very happy!
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Oh, I agree very much that ENY does very little if anything to stave off the hordes or "help" the underdog in terms of # of players.
I think ENY should kick in far sooner and be far more dynamic. It appears as if HTC is set on the 1-40 range for ENY scores. I say get more aircraft and vehicles down in to the 1-4 range, fewer at the 35-40 range, and spread out the planes a bit more in middle. It isnt like HTC can introduce a better bomber than the B29, or better fighters than the P51D, Tempest, or Me262, or a better tank than the King Tiger. Get those ENY scores DOWN there in the 1-23 ranges where they belong and in turn get some of the combat able planes and gv's off the 40 mark. The 40 ENY mark should be reserved for the C47 and Jeep. Things like the D3A, SBD, M3, etc, can all use the 35-39 space.
I think the concept of ENY is good, I really do. I support it fully. I just think HTC could make some improvements to make it more relative to the situation in AH. Too few planes in the <5, and too many at the 35< level, and too few in the 8 to 20 level.
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Too few planes in the <5, and too many at the 35< level, and too few in the 8 to 20 level.
This is the crux of the problem. The way that ENY works currently is pretty all or nothing. When it's under 15, it's not a big limitation. When it gets to 20, you are severely hampered.
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The majority of this problem seems to stem from people so desperate for 25 extra perk points that they might get if the war is won overnight that they leave their account logged in and in the tower at one of the "un-takeable" fields.
The possible solutions that I've seen discussed are 1) to kick players after an hour of straight of sitting in the tower, 2) to prevent players that have been inactive for an hour or more from receiving "you won the war" perk points, or 3) to simply alter the ENY calculation from a percentage based on logged in to a percentage based on the number in flight.
if that's why there were people sitting in the tower ruining your eny, I have a simpler solution. Quit giving perks for winning the war altogether.
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The problem is, I'm pretty sure HTC has pretty much said 'never happen' to 1) and 2). Not really sure about the why, but I recall seeing that.
Wiley.
If you wanted perks, and a inactive in tower kick was implemented, most people would just launch in a GV or plane well away from the action and let it sit. And hence it would still be counted in ENY. And they still would not be kicked.
Now if you come up with an idea to kick some one in plane or GV. Think how it easy it would be to get around your idea.
HiTech
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If you wanted perks, and a inactive in tower kick was implemented, most people would just launch in a GV or plane well away from the action and let it sit. And hence it would still be counted in ENY. And they still would not be kicked.
Now if you come up with an idea to kick some one in plane or GV. Think how it easy it would be to get around your idea.
HiTech
Are we sure the people that are staying logged in idle are actually there for any particular reason? I used to get sidetracked from my computer and often not make it back to it mid-sortie, so it would get left logged in overnight. No real intent, but it did get me perks on occasion.
Might it be beneficial to drop idle connections after the amount of time it would take a B29 to run out of fuel if left AFK on autoclimb? That's the longest amount of time I can see someone being logged in and still actually technically 'doing something' although they'd be pretty far off the map... Maybe cut it off when they're past the point of no return/hit the distance where they're eaten by a squid? What would it be, around 2.5-3 hours? If you're sitting in a GV and don't hit a control for 3 hours, I'd respectfully submit you're not doing much and can rather safely be booted from the server for inactivity.
Based on that and the 12 hour time switch setup, does ENY actually have any positive effect? I struggle to see it. A horde of P47Ds or KI84s or F4Us is still able to faceroll numerically inferior opposition with pretty little difference from a bunch of 5 ENY stuff, excluding jets which are controlled mostly by perks anyways.
Wiley.
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The Bishops have mega squads that sit in the tower waiting for the next mission to take off. Change countries and avoid the ENY. Fight the hoard instead of joining them. :old:
Horse Hockey!
I also see this a lot, where Bish are outnumbered any way you look at it, and yet the enemy does not suffer an ENY. This is what gets people upset.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/ENY-1_zpsf06caaa6.jpg)
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What if ENY was based on the number of fields you owned? :cheers: :bolt:
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Now if you come up with an idea to kick some one in plane or GV. Think how it easy it would be to get around your idea.
What if after detecting no input from the inactive plane/vehicle for an hour, a dialog box pops up in the corner like the "join" dialog, asking if they are still playing? It could have a five or ten minute timeout before it actually booted anyone in case it popped up while they were AFK for a couple minutes.
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Horse Hockey!
I also see this a lot, where Bish are outnumbered any way you look at it, and yet the enemy does not suffer an ENY. This is what gets people upset.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/ENY-1_zpsf06caaa6.jpg)
Just so I understand you, you wish ENY to kick in as soon as one country has 1 more person the the others , I.E. Out Numbed?
HiTech
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Just so I understand you, you wish ENY to kick in as soon as one country has 1 more person the the others , I.E. Out Numbed?
I think he was just pointing to the specific example he posted, wherein the Bishops have 29 and 34 players less than the Rooks and Knights, respectively. In the example, that's almost 50% more players on each side, yet neither has an ENY.
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I think he was just pointing to the specific example he posted, wherein the Bishops have 29 and 34 players less than the Rooks and Knights, respectively. In the example, that's almost 50% more players on each side, yet neither has an ENY.
because it's based on the % of total, eg. 36.9 vs 27.6% one of the countries needs 10% more of the total than the lowest for it to start kicking in, in other words, either knights go up to 37.6% or bish drop down to 26.9%
btw, next time you're outnumbered, check your perk bonus in the hangar :)
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Just so I understand you, you wish ENY to kick in as soon as one country has 1 more person the the others , I.E. Out Numbed?
HiTech
No. What I am saying is that when people see numbers like those they get upset. I wish the country stats page told them straight up what the ENY is based on. If you try to tell people what you (HTC) have said in the past there will always be people that state something to the contrary. I have already seen what happens in early war when just a few people one way or the other kicks in ENY.
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Horse Hockey!
I also see this a lot, where Bish are outnumbered any way you look at it, and yet the enemy does not suffer an ENY. This is what gets people upset.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/ENY-1_zpsf06caaa6.jpg)
give it up your just(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2660/horsevk.jpg) :salute
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Hawker, you are not helping, and clueless.
The problem is most users don't have a lot of desire to learn about percentages and statistics. The term 'ENY' itself does not help convey reason to the riddle. So, what happens in the MA is people run into larger numbers then they have, repeatedly. When they look at ENY they see a '0,' then they get into the mindset of 'fairness.' The next thing you know they are sending out 'we are losing' messages in the chat buffer. Then when they finally wear themselves out stressing over numbers they are convinced they are going to lose the map and stop doing anything strategically. That's when we start reading things in the buffer like 'it doesn't matter what we do' when in reality they have never known what to do in the first place.
So many players are allergic to pork it's not even funny! (you can quote me)
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What about....
ENY = (average planes in flight over the last hour with ENY values less than x)+(# bases captured in the last hour * y*size/type) - (# of bases lost in the last hour *y*size/type) + (overall hourly averaged damage to that countries strat facilities)
What this means is that a sampling is taken of planes with say, ENY 20 or lower (just as an example) in flight every 5 or 10 minutes, then averaged for the past hour every 15-30-60 minutes (whatever isn't going to hammerbang the server).
Next, a value is added for # of bases taken (call it simulating the logistics of an extended supply line) and subtracted for the number and size/type lost. (call it simulating the resources and supply benefits of contracting supply chain).
Lastly, the total damage average over the last hour to the countries strategic supply resource facilities is added.
Now you incorporate the economic logistical burden of the higher value planes actually in flight... you average it to prevent hotspots/missions from throwing it off... you take into account a team steamrolling or getting steamrolled, and finally you put some of the power in the hands of the players by making attacking enemy strats or resupplying your own strats affect the overall availability of choice equipment.
Another thing that might be nice: have varying levels of supply. If ENY is at level 1, all bases are supplied. When level 2 is reached, front line bases can no longer support planes affected by that level of ENY. At level 3, all bases experience shortages and no <ENY aircraft/vehicles are available.
I am absolutely certain this will work perfectly, everyone will be happy, and Hitech can coad it in mere minutes!! :salute :bolt:
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What about....
ENY = (average planes in flight over the last hour with ENY values less than x)+(# bases captured in the last hour * y*size/type) - (# of bases lost in the last hour *y*size/type) + (overall hourly averaged damage to that countries strat facilities)
What this means is that a sampling is taken of planes with say, ENY 20 or lower (just as an example) in flight every 5 or 10 minutes, then averaged for the past hour every 15-30-60 minutes (whatever isn't going to hammerbang the server).
Next, a value is added for # of bases taken (call it simulating the logistics of an extended supply line) and subtracted for the number and size/type lost. (call it simulating the resources and supply benefits of contracting supply chain).
Lastly, the total damage average over the last hour to the countries strategic supply resource facilities is added.
Now you incorporate the economic logistical burden of the higher value planes actually in flight... you average it to prevent hotspots/missions from throwing it off... you take into account a team steamrolling or getting steamrolled, and finally you put some of the power in the hands of the players by making attacking enemy strats or resupplying your own strats affect the overall availability of choice equipment.
Another thing that might be nice: have varying levels of supply. If ENY is at level 1, all bases are supplied. When level 2 is reached, front line bases can no longer support planes affected by that level of ENY. At level 3, all bases experience shortages and no <ENY aircraft/vehicles are available.
I am absolutely certain this will work perfectly, everyone will be happy, and Hitech can coad it in mere minutes!! :salute :bolt:
+1 to TunnelRat's Idea.
:salute
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My idea a long time ago was to keep ENY but split it up between country and zone ENY. You can offset country ENY by flying in an area of very few friendlies or possibly suffer ENY for migrating to an area with many friendlies within. Allow me to explain...
Logging in one night, you notice that the countries are evenly split.. You could;
1. Fly in an area with many other countrymen and fly a higher ENY aircraft.
2. Fly in an area with roughly an even ratio of friendly to enemy aircraft and fly whatever you want.
3. Fly in an area with a very large ratio of enemy aircraft and fly a perk ride for very low cost.
This idea is good for those that don't want to switch countries, as they can log on with an ENY penalty but negate some or even all of it by not joining the larger group of friendlies (again, IF the number of friendlies out numbers the enemy aircraft).
edit: I would minimize or even disable zone ENY for any country that has few remaining fields as their virtual backs are against the wall and overall airbase numbers are lower.
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Hawker, you are not helping, and clueless.
The problem is most users don't have a lot of desire to learn about percentages and statistics. The term 'ENY' itself does not help convey reason to the riddle. So, what happens in the MA is people run into larger numbers then they have, repeatedly. When they look at ENY they see a '0,' then they get into the mindset of 'fairness.' The next thing you know they are sending out 'we are losing' messages in the chat buffer. Then when they finally wear themselves out stressing over numbers they are convinced they are going to lose the map and stop doing anything strategically. That's when we start reading things in the buffer like 'it doesn't matter what we do' when in reality they have never known what to do in the first place.
So many players are allergic to pork it's not even funny! (you can quote me)
clueless.........you think i like when it looks like this.......
Side A 146 players........eny 0
Side B 210 players .......eny 2.9
Side C 165 players........eny 0
or
Side A 44 players .........eny 15.4
Side B 23 players..........eny 0
Side C 40 players..........eny 9.4............I know I know it's all about the percentages...blows my mind, you can be out numbered by 60 players no eny, but be damned to have 20 more :salute
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clueless.........you think i like when it looks like this.......
I think your earlier response with the horse image was an attempt to be clever, but you missed the mark. I have not complained about the eny here, but I am a little tired of the whiners in the chat buffer.
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I know I know it's all about the percentages...blows my mind, you can be out numbered by 60 players no eny, but be damned to have 20 more :salute
When are you more outnumbered?
A) 2 vs 22
or
B) 200 vs 220
hey, it's 20 players more in both cases, so it should be the same ENY ... shouldn't it? :noid