Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Randy1 on February 18, 2013, 07:29:22 AM
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My P38 is in a perfect position with say a spit or 109 for the first lead turn. We are heading for each other and I have achieved separation by diving then getting my nose level. I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge. Entry speed is say 300 indicated. I have WEP. I am in perfect position for the first turn. Life is good.
Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?
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My P38 is in a perfect position with say a spit or 109 for the first lead turn. We are heading for each other and I have achieved separation by diving then getting my nose level. I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge. Entry speed is say 300 indicated. I have WEP. I am in perfect position for the first turn. Life is good.
Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?
- 1st, I would want to be doing just a bit more faster than 300, something like 325 IAS up to 360 IAS, at 300 IAS you will bleed E fast, specifically if you in the G model P38
- 2nd, if you are unable to determine your opponent's "energy" state, then I suggest you only try to mirror / mimic their exact movements, using as low G manuevers as possible, until you bleed them down
- 3rd, Do Not Always Be Perdictable! meaning do not use the Immelman everytime, instead switch it up with some "pitchbacks" , this burns less E as well as puts you in an out of plane position, causing them to burn more E to bring guns to bear
- 4th, although you have WEP ( means you in the J or L model P38, I still think 300 is a bit slow entering the fight/merge unless you "KNOW" your plane and it's abilitys..... I have found numerous players have this issue in the P38 series
- 5th, Once you starting getting better at reading your opponents energy state, you might even be able to hear them go "Throttle Off" at the 3-9 line crossing, so they can pull their tightest reversal, this would be when to turn HARD
- My personal preference is to fly using a manual trim set to 325 IAS up to 335 IAS : in level flight, and leave it there, to me this helps with any nose bounce when flaps are used in a turning fight, and helps to regain speed quickly on the downward side of a vertical turn.... not letting the flaps auto retract, I retract them as soon as my nose is below the horizon pointing more than 25 degree low
EDIT: regarding #5 above, I said if you visualize them turning HARD, or hear them go "Throttle Off / Chop Throttle" during your first 3-9 line crossing on first merge, to turn HARD....... this is not always so...... it is a preference thing!!!
One could also use a low G reversing climb and since you are holding more speed, you just might be able to "rope" your opponent, or least make them stall & faulter below you for an easy target...... just saying..... so many options
Also regarding mimicing/mirroring your opponent, is to watch and react to what they do, but in this situation, you need to be quick and exact at the same time smooth..... I would not really recommend this to newer players, especially less than 6 months playing time.....
I am not specifically a "Full Time" P-38 flyer............ however I have helped many find their shortcomings regarding losing the merge, or not retaining enough "Energy", by blowing it on the first merge reversal...
Hope Some Of This Is Helpful! Good Luck :salute
TC
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There are too many variables you haven't mentioned, Randy.
Are you fighting an aircraft with a higher wing loading than your own? If so, having more speed can be helpful as the other aircraft won't stay and fight for long and you'll want the energy reserves. Against Typhoons, I tend to have larger turn circles as I'm minimizing my G to be able to capitalize on his eventual extention.
Are you entering a fight at 300IAS versus an aircraft with an altitude advantage, or do you have the advantage? The P38 tends to get a lot of energy nose low, if you're entering that fight with that much energy, you'll likely fly past and lose that initial altitude advantage.
This is excerpt of a quote from Lloyd Wenzel, who flew P38s in wartime with the 474th.
"With low drag, it was easy to get to the critical Mach. The flat plate area of the bird was about the size of a folding card
table and it went like hell with the nose down."
What he is saying is the drag of the airframe was very low and it built up speed very easily. Our P38 in Aces High does the same thing, so throttle back when nose low unless the opponent is going to extend from you.
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I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge. Entry speed is say 300 indicated.
Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?
It would help if I read your post completely, instead of studying TC's. :lol
If you're below the spit, a larger energy cushion isn't a bad idea so you can meet his attack instead of performing flat turns. Keep in mind you can always cut throttle at the top to tighten the loop (or actually nose over) and get quick angles. For example, I was fighting a F6 the other day while carrying a heavy fuel load. The F6 was clearly out climbing me but I minimized my profile and chopped throttle as we passed. Using god's G, I was able reverse very quickly and it gave me the angles to end the fight quickly.
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My P38 is in a perfect position with say a spit or 109 for the first lead turn. We are heading for each other and I have achieved separation by diving then getting my nose level. I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge. Entry speed is say 300 indicated. I have WEP. I am in perfect position for the first turn. Life is good.
Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?
Sustained turn rates 101, sustaining turn radius' 101, and energy management 101 - go. You've got a lot to learn (too much to touch on in one dose), but should have lots of fun doing it and shooting down more red guys along the way.
From your example:
Turning hard will reduce your energy/speed greater than gentle/gradual turning. Turning down (with gravity) before reaching your highest reachable point in your circle/arc, will reduce your energy/speed greater. You can trade your energy for that shot opportunity now, or save it for that opportunity that hasn't presented itself yet. If you go with the now and it doesn't work, what is your situation/state then for what is about ot happen next? (and how good/bad/pretty are you gonna be sitting?).
Big blank canvas there in your example, but it's not a bad thing (just a lot to go with and expand on).
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As stated, lots of options. The single biggest key, other than your own E-state is estimating the other persons E-state. If at the merge they are slow I will almost always hit WEP (if it isn't already on) and do a low-G vertical move. Since they are slow, I am fast, I get up high, see how they responded then act.
If they are also fast I will likely take the same route, getting as much altitude as possible, see what they do and decide if I go over the top or roll over and extend. One note, I have a small world of Fw-190A5s and the rest being shiny targets for my 20mms. This means that in a 190 I will stall fight but under a much more narrow set of circumstances I try and control. If I have estimated their E-state correctly and handle my own, to include flaps, etc I will get them slow and stupid, then drop in for the kill.
One of the biggest tricks is getting a sense for the other guys E-state, fast or slow. That helps you make good decisions.
I am guessing these answers might frustrate you because you wanted to know 'hard or soft G-turn.' Recognize that is the right question, just a few others come up before that one. E-state is part of Situational Awareness, or SA.
My two cents.
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First, let me thank everyone for the replies. They were all well thought out. Y'all hit me with a boku of information so I have lots to think about now for sure.
No doubt from the replies my biggest missing ingredient is the opponents E status. That is one skill I have yet to develop beyond knowing other planes and judging their altitude.
TC's reply will give me solid everyday guidance till I understand the problem I posed a little better. TC If I don't have the 325 should I push the nose down or extended?
I must say I am taken back by the complication of the merge beyond the basic ACM. That is probably why i get bet so badly when I run into good stick people.
Let me break my question down further so i an build on SA first. We will use the Spit as an example and add information that I can see out the P38 cockpit.
Using the same situation in my original post. I want to add to my ability to gather information and expand my SA in this 1v1 so I can make a sound first turn. Here is the SA I think I know. What am I missing?
Lets say I know he is about 1K higher.
I know a spit turns tighter than a knot in a rope and I know it climbs like a rocket.
Lest say too I can see the spit has seen my move and is trying to counter with the nose trying to get below my nose. I am guessing he has smack as they say but I don't know how much E the Spit started with.
What other information should I look for to improve my SA so I can make a good first move?
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Some things to consider when fighting Spits or 109s in the 38. While it depends on the model generally, plane for plane, they'll both out turn you and out climb you, especially the 109s for the latter. Both have better roll rate but if you're flying the Lightning I don't have to tell you that. They can be out turned--in the short term-- but it's very dependent on your flap use and their flap use--that pilot thing. All models of the 38 compared to any of these is a much, much heavier bird. So you have to be mindful of the "God's G" that Babalon aluded to earlier. Gravity can be both your friend and your enemy. It makes it hard to maintain speed going downhill with such a heavy clean bird like the 38. Nose down it picks up speed quickly and this will widen your radius and also slow your rate. You can negate this by throttle management and using flaps. I like flaps on nose low and then off nose high. Here the weight of the bird can help carry you upwards toward the top and you want to shed drag to get there. Going back down it's flaps back on to add drag, not only help with turning but to also slow your acceleration.
Funny, I've been messing with converting films to video just this past week and I put one up of a fight with a G2 in my 38L. It's the only one I played around with as I wanted something basic to start with. This guy followed me from a base that was under heavy attack and thought he had the drop on me. See if you can pick up on what I was doing to negate his advantage. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGrb1txwK80
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The only thing I would add to the 38 - which I do not fly - they seem to have the normal, American level of heavy boom and zoom. The Spit does not worry me at for zooming. The Spit16 will eventually climb up to my A5 but only if I don't get over top of him and make him point his nose down.
With Spits it is all about not turning with them. And at higher speeds the controls get pretty stiff, which means they struggle to keep up with the 190. I am guessing that will be true with the 38L as well.
Just this morning I killed a Hurricane on a 1 v 1. It wasn't easy to finally nail the sucker but it was a lost cause. I had alt and E, the Hurri turns almost as well as a Zero and takes punishment much better. Try as it might, I wouldn't get suckered into a turn fight, everything was over the top. And yes, the A5 dominated the poor guy in his tight turning Hurri.
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With Spits it is all about not turning with them.
^^^This^^^
Generally the rule is don't turn with them. You'll upset a lot of Spit drivers (not a bad thing) but the idea is to fight your fight and not the other guy's fight. Low, slow, e-burning turnfight is in the Spitfire's house. Avoid this. Stay fast. Get above.
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^^^This^^^
Generally the rule is don't turn with them. You'll upset a lot of Spit drivers (not a bad thing) but the idea is to fight your fight and not the other guy's fight. Low, slow, e-burning turnfight is in the Spitfire's house. Avoid this. Stay fast. Get above.
But you know that's not the most fun way, Drano! :)
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So you have to be mindful of the "God's G" that Babalon aluded to earlier.
:headscratch:
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Oh sorry, Del. Was reading on the Droid.
Old eyes coupled with a narrow screen I got those posts
jumbled.
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Thanks again for all the replies. Y'all opened my eyes again pushing me to improve my SA. T
Going back down it's flaps back on to add drag, not only help with turning but to also slow your acceleration.
Funny, I've been messing with converting films to video just this past week and I put one up of a fight with a G2 in my 38L. It's the only one I played around with as I wanted something basic to start with. This guy followed me from a base that was under heavy attack and thought he had the drop on me. See if you can pick up on what I was doing to negate his advantage. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGrb1txwK80
I was pulling my flaps in too soon. I tried last night to leave them down longer and I liked the results. Thanks Drano.
I watched your video a couple of times. No doubt , you let the G work until the E was gone. It was like you were the yolk of an egg and he was the shell going all around till the shell broke. Good Film.
One of the biggest tricks is getting a sense for the other guys E-state, fast or slow. That helps you make good decisions.
I got burned by a Brewster the other night because I failed to judge the Brew's E. I hit WEP and went straight up. Doggone if that little #&*^% didn't follow me up like it was a 109.
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But you know that's not the most fun way, Drano! :)
As Jefferey Lebowski would say..........."Well.........Yeah!" ;)
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Interesting thread gents! Keep it coming, I'm gonna keep my eyes peeled on this one....... ;)
Randy, I love your using the spit as an example, since to me that has proved to be the toughest opponent to beat. Most others I can either out turn or out run, but spits manage to climb up to me and then as I'm stalling out to reverse go into helicopter mode, hang on their prop to no end and kill me mercilessly. :P :lol
See if you can pick up on what I was doing to negate his advantage. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGrb1txwK80
Hmm, lets see: Heres what I think.
1. You didnt lose sight of him through out the fight, which (ashamed to say it :o), is still a bit of an issue for me especially when hes in my high 10 or 2 o'clk (where the cockpit bars block some vision).
2. Your initial evasives were low(ish) G turns without any flaps deployment to allow you to retain the most of your E, while forcing him to blow some of his.
3. Throttle management was the most important factor here I think. You cut throttle once on the downward leg to cut into his loop and stay on his rear. The second and final time, was in the upward portion (when you saw him doing that 109 helicopter 180 tailslide reversal thing :D) which prevented an overshoot and allowed you to stay on his six and get the eventual kill.
Ok, now tell me all the good stuff, what'd I miss? :D
Oh and btw is your monitor set to a wider FoV or is your head position moved further aft? The way you've got it set, you have severly reduced my problem of losing forward viisbility of the con in the 10 and 2 oclk position. Gonna have to give that a try.
I like flaps on nose low and then off nose high. Here the weight of the bird can help carry you upwards toward the top and you want to shed drag to get there. Going back down it's flaps back on to add drag, not only help with turning but to also slow your acceleration.
Very very interesting. Ive been doing pretty much the exact opposite of that. My logic was nose low I want to build speed and so a cleaner config would help there. Nose up I want to get around the loop faster and the added drag+lift of the flaps will help me do that. Never thought about the points you raised. I knew there was such a thing as 'too much speed', just didnt think it would ever occur on the P38 (unless ofcourse I'm diving straight down).
:salute Sirs. Keep this discussion going. :salute :salute
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Hazard69, since going to the TrackIR system, I can track a plane really well. It does take some getting use to.
Still, full SA alludes me sometimes and when that happens, the tower is very close.
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Hmm, lets see: Heres what I think.
1. You didnt lose sight of him through out the fight, which (ashamed to say it :o), is still a bit of an issue for me especially when hes in my high 10 or 2 o'clk (where the cockpit bars block some vision).
It's important. There's a lot to be said for "lose sight--lose the fight" because it's the truth. The visibility in the 38 ain't the best, but the J/L are still way better than the G with that dang armor glass assembly right in front of you.
2. Your initial evasives were low(ish) G turns without any flaps deployment to allow you to retain the most of your E, while forcing him to blow some of his.
Because there's no reason to pull a lot of G--yet. Since he already has the advantage there's no reason to give him more. Keep him in view and watch what he's doing. My second evasive turn was heavier because he was shooting at me and I needed to throw off his solution.
3. Throttle management was the most important factor here I think. You cut throttle once on the downward leg to cut into his loop and stay on his rear. The second and final time, was in the upward portion (when you saw him doing that 109 helicopter 180 tailslide reversal thing :D) which prevented an overshoot and allowed you to stay on his six and get the eventual kill.
I'll come off WEP when nose low more than throttle back. It's a speed management thing. And if you look closely you'll see I gain angles more in the nose low portion of the fight than the nose high. I'm not sure if his last maneuver was planned or not but I more or less released pull and popped a notch of flap losing sight for a sec but the idea was I'd kick rudder whichever way he ended up off my nose.
Ok, now tell me all the good stuff, what'd I miss? :D
I think his best chance here was early in the fight (third pass I think) where we were almost nose on as I was inverted. I think he was setting up for a shot as I crossed his nose and I didn't cooperate doing a snap roll to the left just before I might have passed in front giving him no shot. This set the fight going right which is better for the 38 vs most birds. While not a tremendous advantage it helps. He turned sharply right and seemed to have scrubbed a lot of E right here. I then continued with the flaps and throttle.
Oh and btw is your monitor set to a wider FoV or is your head position moved further aft? The way you've got it set, you have severly reduced my problem of losing forward viisbility of the con in the 10 and 2 oclk position. Gonna have to give that a try.
I think my FOV is set to auto int he game. I generally set my head position a bit farther aft and a touch up than some for the exact reason you're seeing. Better view over the nose and between 10 and 2.
Very very interesting. Ive been doing pretty much the exact opposite of that. My logic was nose low I want to build speed and so a cleaner config would help there. Nose up I want to get around the loop faster and the added drag+lift of the flaps will help me do that. Never thought about the points you raised. I knew there was such a thing as 'too much speed', just didnt think it would ever occur on the P38 (unless ofcourse I'm diving straight down).
Gotta factor in that the Lightning is a big heavy bird (some might call it a bomber ;)). It's much heavier than a 109 for sure. It's so heavy and also clean that heading downhill at all it tends to build up speed quickly--so you have to manage it more than with most other birds. Pure verticle down you better be on top of it or you'll end up in trouble fast. Maybe not so much with an enemy as the ground! The flaps idea is to use gravity as a sort of judo. You don't want to get too fast--as you otherwise will--as it'll hose your turn rate. The energy egg shape at the bottom would be waay wide. You have to manage it. Other lighter birds don't have this "problem" and need to clean up going downhill to regain E then not having the extra weight to carry them through upwards need the flap more at the top.
:salute Sirs. Keep this discussion going. :salute :salute
:salute and good luck learning the 38.
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I assure you, I know nothing. :noid
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Lightbulb = on. Good thread. Thanks for the video Drano. :salute
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Small remark
You can't dive to gain E. Energy is the total of your mass times altitude (potential energy) plus your mass times speed squared (kinetic energy).
If you dive you convert your potential energy into kinetic energy. If you zoom up it's vice versa. Assuming your engine was finely adjusted just to offset drag all that diving and zooming would result in no net energy change.
So you can dive to gain speed, but you can't dive to gain energy.
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Small remark
You can't dive to gain E. Energy is the total of your mass times altitude (potential energy) plus your mass times speed squared (kinetic energy).
If you dive you convert your potential energy into kinetic energy. If you zoom up it's vice versa. Assuming your engine was finely adjusted just to offset drag all that diving and zooming would result in no net energy change.
So you can dive to gain speed, but you can't dive to gain energy.
Hmm....
"Potential energy" ( known as given altitude mostly ) plus "Kinetic energy" ( known as given speed mostly ) actually equals
one's TOTAL "Energy State" . So yes, one can dive to gain or regain "E" .... This "E" is in the kinetic form, which will help the P38
climb ( or even ZOOM ) back up to "store" , deposit , etc... "E" in the potential form.... just to be used, burned, traded off for "E",
once one decides they need to regain "E" ....
However, I and probably every one else, understood what each post/reply meant... without getting nitty gritty technical, althoughit is great that you brought up the subject in this thread
<§>
TC
ps: Randy, that 325 ~ 360 pre merge speed is something "myself" strives (and recommend others ) to try and reach, but it is not a do or die requirement, ... Me, personally would go ahead and merge/engage in the fight...
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btw. ^^^^^ was posted trying to use a description in "laymen's words" instead of aeronautical engineering study guides....
and this phone I'm typing on never let's me "modify" any post
Thanks for bringing up the subject of "E" , doright
Cheers
TC
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Thanks for bringing up the subject of "E" , doright
:aok
Not the first time I've heard people say dive to pick up E. Kind of annoys me.
From a training perspective what is really important is that when trying to compare energy states you have to use total energy.