Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: mthrockmor on February 25, 2013, 08:46:18 AM
-
I think the Dora needs to be reworked just a bit.
Long discussed is the one hit wonder on the radiator. Look at the bird wrong and it starts leaking radiator fluid. I won't go into this one much but it needs to be reworked a bit.
In general the plane is very damage prone. I fly the A5 almost exclusively and rarely run into the damage I get with the Dora. The Dora loses cannons much faster, seems the oil the same and pilot wounded easier.
Should not some of these have the same damage likelihood as the A5? In any case, the Dora needs to be toughened up a bit. It's ubber-nancy.
-
I think the Dora needs to be reworked just a bit.
Long discussed is the one hit wonder on the radiator. Look at the bird wrong and it starts leaking radiator fluid. I won't go into this one much but it needs to be reworked a bit.
In general the plane is very damage prone. I fly the A5 almost exclusively and rarely run into the damage I get with the Dora. The Dora loses cannons much faster, seems the oil the same and pilot wounded easier.
Should not some of these have the same damage likelihood as the A5? In any case, the Dora needs to be toughened up a bit. It's ubber-nancy.
Glass radiator on a Dora? Never! :noid
I can understand it being more vulnerable than an A-5 because of the different engine, but it has always seemed to get coolant leaks if a bomber even looks at it sideways...
-
I thought the P38 made a lot of money for Prestone. The good news is though, we have two radiators. :)
-
The Dora also had two radiators. So did the 109 and Spitfire (Mk IX onwards). However, in this game having more than one radiator is a liability, not a redundancy, since the game only models one cooling circuit.
-
The number one reason i do not fly the Dora, or TA152 is the supersized radiator.
even 7.7 mm is effective against their radiators
-
The number one reason i do not fly the Dora, or TA152 is the supersized radiator.
even 7.7 mm is effective against their radiators
Slightly off topic save, but what gun package in the A8 do you usually use, and do you bother with burning the aft tank first?
And If I may ask, why?
-
The Dora also had two radiators. So did the 109 and Spitfire (Mk IX onwards). However, in this game having more than one radiator is a liability, not a redundancy, since the game only models one cooling circuit.
Anybody ever got an radiator hit in a Spit? :noid
-
Anybody ever got an radiator hit in a Spit? :noid
Yes. Many times.
-
Annular radiators will tend to do that considering the amount of real estate they take up on the engine.
(http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/uploads/monthly_12_2008/post-5311-1230408382.jpg)
(http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/aeroenginespistoncutaways/images/5670/bmw-801-cutaway.jpg)
(http://www.zoukeimura.co.jp/en/sentiment/img_ta152/img_pht405.jpg)
-
You notice the armor in front and aft of it in the first picture? If you look closer you'll also notice that the radiator is in fact several separate radiators with separate coolant lines and shut-off valves. The second picture is of a BMW 802 radial engine. The radiator is the oil cooler.
-
190D is one of the few planes that can take a 37mm from a field gun and not die.. it's usually an engine hit (kills the engine, but the plane still flies)
-
In my experience all planes in AH can take whatever round to the engine and not damage anything else.
-
Once i was in a hellcat and shot a D9 with the main gun. He was flying away with an oil leak. Other times i got one 7.7mm hit and lost the cooling.
Anyway, anyone have ever got a radiator hit on the pony?
-
Anyway, anyone have ever got a radiator hit on the pony?
it happens but its rare compared to the 190D9's engine sized radiator
-
Quick fix first hit a 50 50 random on the hit, 2nd time hit it is a rad hit
-
Any one have a radiator leak on lancs?
-
Anyway, anyone have ever got a radiator hit on the pony?
I tried setting up some tests flying through ack pony vs d9 but the only thing I found out is the faster you are the less likely you are to take hits :bhead
It might be more to do with the flying style in the MA were nearly everyone trys a quick head on rudder squirt in the merge that the D9 suffers, it only takes 1 50. cal round from 1k or more to end your flight, in the pony the rad is under the belly and therefore less likely to get the 'old head on' damage.
-
Slightly off topic save, but what gun package in the A8 do you usually use, and do you bother with burning the aft tank first?
And If I may ask, why?
i use the 4*20 package for up to 90% of my missions.
i almost always take 100% fuel and i burn them default
aux aft fwd.
4*20 mm is best if you like to snipe at distance, not close amd
personal, like my squaddie, Kovel, who use 30mm
-
I tried setting up some tests flying through ack pony vs d9 but the only thing I found out is the faster you are the less likely you are to take hits
It might be more to do with the flying style in the MA were nearly everyone trys a quick head on rudder squirt in the merge that the D9 suffers, it only takes 1 50. cal round from 1k or more to end your flight, in the pony the rad is under the belly and therefore less likely to get the 'old head on' damage.
This might explain something if the Dora's radiator would be one big circle. Luftwhine alert ;)
-
I get rad hits in the pony all the time. If I get hit at all it's always a gun hit, oil, or rad. I believe the gun modules of the cannons of LW aircraft are particularly sensitive to hits because of fragile electronics. This is particularly true for the Ta152, 163, 262, and 190D9. In the case of the 152 it does not make sense, because the same mounting in the 109K4 does not have that problem, or in reverse the 109K4 should have the same difficulty.
-
(http://i50.tinypic.com/1z3oxvm.jpg)
Red zone here represents the actual radiators position in the dora.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2u7rfuv.jpg)
In Aces High damage model
Red zone is 100% radiator hit
Yellow zone is about 90% for a radiator hit
Blue zone is a toss up between radiator and oil with oil more being more likely than the radiator
I doubt the pony's hit area would be anywhere near the size of the Dora's and considering the damage model does not take in to account the direction the bullet is travelling it only has one side to be shot, the Dora hitzone can literally be shot at any angle even long range plunging shots from the rear, as long as it strikes a part of the hit zone there is a good chance of a rad hit.
-
Any one have a radiator leak on lancs?
Now we're talking/thinking. :devil
(http://i50.tinypic.com/1z3oxvm.jpg)
Red zone here represents the actual radiators position in the dora.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2u7rfuv.jpg)
In Aces High damage model
Red zone is 100% radiator hit
Yellow zone is about 90% for a radiator hit
Blue zone is a toss up between radiator and oil with oil more being more likely than the radiator
I doubt the pony's hit area would be anywhere near the size of the Dora's and considering the damage model does not take in to account the direction the bullet is travelling it only has one side to be shot, the Dora hitzone can literally be shot at any angle even long range plunging shots from the rear, as long as it strikes a part of the hit zone there is a good chance of a rad hit.
I agree with your analysis, I've hit Doras on the spinner and seen them take a radiator hit (and anything anywhere forward the mid nose is a coin toss (even a bug impact)), but have you tested or documented this (or somehow gotten an inside source) to verify this is true/acurate? If it is, then I'll be pissed, but I want to make sure its not speculation.
-
(http://jpeghoster.com/images/54583612060600425491.jpg)
No its from my own test results with a helper and a 50 cal on a jeep, and the planes in those pics were colored in myself as a rough visual aid, I know in basic bullet reflection of a hard object the bullet tends to follow the line of that hard object, what happens when it hits a hub spinner going a couple of 1000 rpm is anyone's guess.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Dora_radiator.jpg)
You can see the side profile of the radiator isn't nearly as big as the hit area around the cowling, which is disappointing, also the fact the radiator is in 2 halves. I'm presuming it would be a big challenge to model the direction the plane is getting hit at because you can shoot the spinner beyond 90 degrees from behind and still get a rad hit, modeling the effect of the spinner and a bullet strike would I'd say be again a huge challenge to do it game.
But I asked Hitech once in the MA when it was getting fixed and he said there is nothing wrong with it, so maybe he knows something we don't :old:
I think the 190s and 109s should have a 50 50 random chance on the first strike of taking a rad hit and have a definate rad hit on the second strike considering they have 2 rads, + its just really a pointless waste of time in gameply terms since you have no option to rtb unless you are very close to your base.
-
Pervert just might have the smoking gun.
All know the Dora is a nancy on the radiator. Fix it!!
-
Pervert just might have the smoking gun.
All know the Dora is a nancy on the radiator. Fix it!!
While the hit zones are roughly correct, they are only correct if you assume that the bullet is travelling straight towards the plane, a lot of the rad hits I used to take in game were from stupid situations, like being over 1k away from a couple of cons group spraying me in 51s and 47s as my style of merging doesn't really allow much of a frontal shot.
I think they really need to have a look at the size of the hit zones and reducing the probabilty of a rad hit on anything other than the front of the nose. Getting rad hits from 1.5k away is a bit of joke. I remember Bruv always laughing at me on vent for flipping out with rad hits every other sortie until he experienced rad hit rage himself after flying it for a month :D
In saying that I doubt it will ever be changed, once HTC makes its mind up something is OK they don't seem to change it.
-
As I've said before, very good job on the testing pervert. I really hope it would get looked at.
-
Pervert just might have the smoking gun.
All know the Dora is a nancy on the radiator. Fix it!!
(http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2008/07/resized_can-we-fix-it.jpg)
Please HTCs, fix it, fix it, fix it, fix it! :devil
OK, but seriously, it's been months since my last 190 wishlsit thread, I think I'll compile one in within the next week. This game need more/better 190s, and for it being used now by an estimated 10% of players, I think some proper 190Fs and 190Gs (maybe freeing up the As to be modeled after ones specificly more fit for A2A duties) would be a hit. This game could use a re-polished D-9 with maybe a D-11 or how about a perked D-13!
-
+1 for more 190's
-
The omnidirectional ping is gamey, and maybe the radiator hit is being used as a catchall for every other kind of damage that can happen when a 50cal API round hits anywhere along the length of the V12 engine.
Quite alot of plumbing, wiring and the block itself to be damaged by a 50cal API round. Maybe it's simpler and less CPU processing to make the damage to the forward area of the cockpit be a catchall after any MG131 damage. Afterall this is being written to Windows to account for legacy PC. There may be trade offs to give everyone the physics modeling you like flying in.
If HiTech says it's fine as is, this may be some of what you are arguing about. You want what you want and he has to make the game playable for more players than just you.
-
"I doubt the pony's hit area would be anywhere near the size of the Dora's and considering the damage model does not take in to account the direction the bullet is travelling it only has one side to be shot, the Dora hitzone can literally be shot at any angle even long range plunging shots from the rear, as long as it strikes a part of the hit zone there is a good chance of a rad hit."
Indeed, I have seen Dora taking rad hits from almost direct 6oc where IRL those would not happen.
The size of a radiator is usually directly proportional to engine power and the "face" size can be reduced at a cost of efficiency as the depth of the radiator increases, so I'd think the Pony does not have much smaller rad compared to that of Dora's. However there's a big difference which rad is prone to get hit by 12oc or 6oc hits because of location but as total 3D area there should not be much difference between these two if we assume that the density of the radiator is roughly the same.
-C+
-
Thanks Pervert.
-
Fix it!!
Please!!!
-
You guys are just trying to get vDALLAS back into the game.
-
You guys are just trying to get vDALLAS back into the game.
For the God's sake, no!
-
If the radiator hit is a catchall for all the other damage available to happen to an inline engine hit by AP rounds due to the radiator being located with the engine. Then HiTech might give you what you want while giving you more than you barganded for to compensate for the change.
-
"I doubt the pony's hit area would be anywhere near the size of the Dora's and considering the damage model does not take in to account the direction the bullet is travelling it only has one side to be shot, the Dora hitzone can literally be shot at any angle even long range plunging shots from the rear, as long as it strikes a part of the hit zone there is a good chance of a rad hit."
Indeed, I have seen Dora taking rad hits from almost direct 6oc where IRL those would not happen.
The size of a radiator is usually directly proportional to engine power and the "face" size can be reduced at a cost of efficiency as the depth of the radiator increases, so I'd think the Pony does not have much smaller rad compared to that of Dora's. However there's a big difference which rad is prone to get hit by 12oc or 6oc hits because of location but as total 3D area there should not be much difference between these two if we assume that the density of the radiator is roughly the same.
-C+
Good point, but it should be (but also should/would need to be tested much further). The mustang not only has two individual radiator/coolant systems (one for the engine, the other for the supercharger's aftercooler) but the header tank is ontop of and forward of th engine, litterally crammed in a horse-shoe shape over the reduction gears between the engine and propeller (and this is the engine's main cooling tank). Its size is similar to half a Dora's radiator, except its just the tank and the actual radiator in a pony is in the belly scoop. Then there's the aftercooler system which is kinda one with the supercharger unit mounted on the rear of the engine - a hit to it could lead to leaking coolant, oil, fuel (and fire - especialy if leaking coolant and now predetonation is occuring in the sueprcharger now) or even damage the engine. Again, this is just that region, the actual radiator for this aftercooler is in the belly scoop.
-
Yada yada yada
Everyone knows that the Dora is a nancy with a glass chin. Everyone. What we have is a slobbering love affair with AH as to why it is not fixed. If the answer is, it's on the list below 50 other things, that's fine. In real life are we to believe that the Dora took a .303 in the tail and the radiator started leaking? Or, are you saying that the same .303 round in the tail was nearly catastrophic and instead of loosing a stablizer or tailwheel, or something else, the arcarde version simple makes the radiator leak?
I would suggest the Dora was just as robust as the A5, or A8, which means a .303 to the tail barely makes a hole. The damage modeling for the Dora needs to be fixed. I think the bigger question, how far down the que is it?
-
Yada yada yada
Everyone knows that the Dora is a nancy with a glass chin. Everyone. What we have is a slobbering love affair with AH as to why it is not fixed. If the answer is, it's on the list below 50 other things, that's fine. In real life are we to believe that the Dora took a .303 in the tail and the radiator started leaking? Or, are you saying that the same .303 round in the tail was nearly catastrophic and instead of loosing a stablizer or tailwheel, or something else, the arcarde version simple makes the radiator leak?
I would suggest the Dora was just as robust as the A5, or A8, which means a .303 to the tail barely makes a hole. The damage modeling for the Dora needs to be fixed. I think the bigger question, how far down the que is it?
If the radiator hit is a catchall for all the other damage available to happen to an inline engine hit by AP rounds due to the radiator being located with the engine. Then HiTech might give you what you want while giving you more than you barganded for to compensate for the change.
See my post above, I'd love to see ponys held to as equal a standard as the Dora. :devil
It's not that the Dora didn't have a glass raiator, just that it wasn't 4-5 times the size as its modeled in AH. I would love to see the same blanket-damage strategy aplied to the mustang (in regards to just coolant/radiators: big wide damage area from the prop spinner to the first feet of the engine AND another nice sized box behind the engine AND another bix phat exposed box hanging beneth in the scoop), the whines would be delicious!!!
PS - I'm also watching the 202/205 thread closely, wouldn't it be nice to finaly get our A8's canopy accuratley adjusted?
-
See my post above, I'd love to see ponys held to as equal a standard as the Dora. :devil
It's not that the Dora didn't have a glass raiator, just that it wasn't 4-5 times the size as its modeled in AH. I would love to see the same blanket-damage strategy aplied to the mustang (in regards to just coolant/radiators: big wide damage area from the prop spinner to the first feet of the engine AND another nice sized box behind the engine AND another bix phat exposed box hanging beneth in the scoop), the whines would be delicious!!!
PS - I'm also watching the 202/205 thread closely, wouldn't it be nice to finaly get our A8's canopy accuratley adjusted?
To be fair it (the 51) is modelled the exact same 1 50 cal round is the end of it, its just protected by the entire plane, Temp doesn't take rad hits easy because although on the front it has a smaller surface area for the hit zone. The only part that is debatable is the spinner itself being a hit zone and how far back the area on the cowling takes rad hits. Also there has to be a cutoff if one of these rads gets damaged otherwise why would it be in 2 halves? :headscratch:
-
I really don't think it is fair, is my point. See this 2-minute photoshop I did:
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/AH%20Junk/p51dBadSpots1_zpsa2de058b.png)
Light coloration is the actual header tank and aftercooler locations in the engine. If they were treated as if cooling components on a Dora, they should/would be modeled as it is in the dark highlights. I agree one-fifty is indeed enough in AH to damage it, but is it a guarenteed loss of coolant/radiator like it is on the Dora? If analisys was done on the AH P51 I don't think its close to acurate, but it would be inacurate in a way that would favor a pony driver in AH, not penalyse them like with the Dora.
My above image does not take into acount that the actual radiators are housed in the rather exposed belly scoop, nor the numerous lines that run to each independent system from the belly to the front and rear of the engine which would add a third rather large and damage-able area by a 50-cal area.
The lines if modeled IMHO alone would be the heel for the P51 in AH. Not only are they routed from one end to 2/3 the other, but (like how the Dora is modeled) easily damageable by a shot to the rear fueselage that doesn't penetrate forward the cockpit. IE: The bleeds for both coolant systems is located above the scoop in the L-fuselage. In the above image, roughly behind the wing on the left side in the region of the first black invasion stripe on the fuselage tail, behind the "3" in "C3".