Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Torquila on March 05, 2013, 04:57:16 AM
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I need some help with high altitude interception tactics against bombers...
I find myself facing higher and higher runners (generally 30k now) and the 410 with the bk5 really has a hard time doing anything at that alt, so I don't want to waste any opportunities.
Thanks.
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At that altitude you are simply running out of options in the 410 with he BK-5. While kills are still possible, the 410 is at that altitude way past any performance level that would make it a first choice bomber hunter. If you still want to use it, you have to be at altitude and waiting near the bomber's target long before he's arriving. Considering the long time the 410 needs to climb to 30k (MK 103, 100 internal fuel = 34 minutes!), you can not really do intercepts but anti bomber patrols, upping in hope any enemy bombers will come your way. I would also drop the BK-5 for flights at very high altitudes, as you need each any every single mph or additional climbrate that you can get. (Actually the Mk-103 is a much better package at any alt, but that's a different topic).
Generally I would recommend taking a different plane for bomber hunting if you expect your enemies to fly significantly higher than 25k. Above 28k many bombers can actually pull away or at least outclimb you. While kills are still possible (been there, done that) it's a matter of luck and extreme patience, and often a very frustrating thing.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=3&p2=123&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/410climb_zpsfd7ec500.jpg)
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That just looks so much prettier and informative than the 410-clifnotes version: "The 410 sucks against most/all heavy bombers above 25k. Climbing for more than 20-minutes is really unecassy and becomes a real drawn out process above 25k."
Best attack postions for starting your run on heavily laden/armed bomber interceptors at high alt is to be slightly above them and slightly faster. As you can see from Lusche's data, this ideal strategic positioning becomes a chore to near impossible in a 410 vs B-17s at ~26k and above. The best answer to your question is if you choose the 410, use it only on bombers within your ideal altitudes and speed ranges. If you need to persue bombers above these limits, select another bomber interceptor better suited in that environment (off the top of my head: 109G-14 w/ gondies, 190A-8, Ta-152, and to an extent the 110G-2 should be noted and thrown into the pot as it is just-notabley better at higher altitudes than the Me410, but not by much).
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/AH%20Junk/410v110climb_zps0308be3b.png)
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/AH%20Junk/410v110speed_zps16816e42.png)
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I need some help with high altitude interception tactics against bombers...
I find myself facing higher and higher runners (generally 30k now) and the 410 with the bk5 really has a hard time doing anything at that alt, so I don't want to waste any opportunities.
Thanks.
I've had a great deal of fun estimating where the bombers are taking off from, based on best routes to targets , many leave from 4 sectors behind the lines, you can see the darbars light up. I fly deep into those sectors at about 15 K and set up a BARCAP and get them while they are climbing up. Many times, they are AFK. Sometimes I'll kill just two and take off the ailerons and rudder on the last.
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The prime altitudes for the Me410 are between 20k and 25k, no higher. Yeah, you may be able to go fast enough to have a chance to intercept but the window of success is small enough that I suggest to not waist your time. The 410 is a slug if you try and turn at higher alts, so long gentle turns are needed.
The best thing you can do in a Me410 is take %75 and climb to 25k and patrol the bombing lanes far enough away from your strats to catch them before they get out of your altitude range, meaning once they get high enough let them go and go after fish you can catch.
The Me410 has a very good range, no need to take %100 and DT's, I suggest %50 and DT's or better yet just %75. Also, might as well make use of the 50mm. Set your convergence to 600 yards and don't get any closer than 1000 yards. Shoot once and adjust. 1 hit brings down anything.
Patience is virtue. :aok
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We took 410s up to 30k and past in the last scenario. They're not terrible up there. Not great, but not terrible. We were keeping pace with the heavy 190A8s and even outpacing them several times. Definitely better than a heavy A8 at altitude.
Like Lusche said, the problem is you need to already be at alt and waiting for the targets. Since that's almost impossible most times, you're going to find you do a lot of chasing for very little reward.
The up-side? When you do catch them it is QUITE a reward, indeed! Those few seconds of joy keep you going through the hours of boredom chasing. At least, it seems to keep me going.
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Well I usually use a 75% fuel load to intercept strat runners as they extend and 100% with DTs for patrol routines seems to work fine when alot of people are on and active.
I decidedly don't use anything other then the bk5 because as a long time 110G player, I have learnt that getting close at high alts never works out unless they are in bombsite or afk...
Sticking to that and a patient attack pattern with a strict "no less than 1.5k" rule has gotten me almost a perfect record vs bombers.
But... I do want to be effective with the mk103 as well but only find it useful against fighters in head ons or long range deflections. After the sort of bomber pilots i've met at 25k+ (you as well snailman) I am increasingly hesitant to give it a proper go or even think that its worth it.
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Never get within 1.5k? :headscratch:
Anyways, you never need 100% + DTs, especially just for normal patrols. Unless you intend to try and set duration records with it. It's one of the longest-range non-bombers in the game. In fact, you would NEVER want to take that much fuel on a patrol that you intended to engage the enemy with. There's so much fuel onboard you're shooting yourself in the foot, hand, shoulder, then head. You can't maneuver even if you need to.
With over 600 gallons of fuel onboard, every 25% adds about 900 extra pounds of weight. Each gallon of gas in Aces High weighs 6lbs, per HTC comments on the matter. If you find that 75% helps you chase down running bombers (a task that takes a lot of time and gas) why on earth would you take even MORE than that for basic combat?
It makes no sense.
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When I do high alt anti-bomber patrols in the 410, my standard fuel loadout is 100%, no DT. And I often had to use up all that fuel, even though I was travelling at lower power settings, because there was a long gap between appearance of enemy buffs. Or I was prowling all over the map in search of new food...
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My philosophy is: If 100% internal in a super long range fighter doesn't give any results, LAND. There's just nothing to hunt when that happens. Better to roll a lighter loadout and look for a localized fight. Try a little mixing it up at lower alts, etc.
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My philosophy is: If 100% internal in a super long range fighter doesn't give any results, LAND. There's just nothing to hunt when that happens. Better to roll a lighter loadout and look for a localized fight. Try a little mixing it up at lower alts, etc.
When I explicitly go high alt bomber hunting, "mixing it at lower alts" is not what I'm interested in.
Sometimes I'm just looking to protect the strats. In that mission, I find the long duration quite advantageous, as I don't have to see enemy bombers appearing right when I'm landing to refuel ;)
With the marvelous Mk-103 package, I've got enough ammo for several formations, I personally don't want to waste that by choosing to little fuel.
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I meant to suggest that if the bomber hunting doesn't go well, stop doing that, and do something else. I often only had so much time per sortie so if I wasted an hour or more hunting bombers I'd try again later. If it wasn't happening I'd move on and do something different. Hence: go mix it up.
Essentially I'm saying if there's nothing to hunt why keep flying around doing nothing? I've done that far too much in this game. It took me a while to learn to just set the plane down, tower out, and mentally move on.
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Essentially I'm saying if there's nothing to hunt why keep flying around doing nothing?
For the love of it? ;)
When I'm doing this stuff, I fully accept beforehand that there might a 20 minute gap between the actual combat incidents. When I don't feel I have the patience for such a patrol, I don't do it. :)
Especially when defending the strats, you have to think in different time spans. Depending on map, you can't know for sure when the next attacker is going to show up, but when you up only when you see him inbound it may be too late.
I often had more fun in keeping the City 'clean' for 60 minutes with only a few kills than having furballed with 10-12 victories.
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In my opinion, you need a different aircraft for intercept. The 410 takes about 11 minutes to reach 20k, which is enough time for a set of B-17s to drop and leave the sector, if you up when the base flashes. At that point, you're not intercepting, you're retaliating.
The 410, is a different verse of the 110's song. You can attack a strat raid, or similarly long flight, but you simply cannot function as a point defense interceptor.
Use a K4 if they're below 30k and time is short , and the Ta-152 for above that, regardless of time, escorts, or Satan giving you the evil eye.
The P-47 can also be effective at high altitude, but it suffers from poor climb, and armament that is (in my opinion) less well suited to the slashing passes you will want to use, and is worse against escorts, although it's more resistant to gunfire,accelerates better IIRC, and has more staying power as far as ammunition goes.
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Tank you can never know id they are rtb or just extending for another run.
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I've had a great deal of fun estimating where the bombers are taking off from, based on best routes to targets , many leave from 4 sectors behind the lines, you can see the darbars light up. I fly deep into those sectors at about 15 K and set up a BARCAP and get them while they are climbing up. Many times, they are AFK. Sometimes I'll kill just two and take off the ailerons and rudder on the last.
Traveler,
What does AFK stand for/mean?
Thanks!
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Traveler,
What does AFK stand for/mean?
Thanks!
Away From Keyboard
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Tank you can never know id they are rtb or just extending for another run.
K..... Still not an intercept. And still enough time for a solid 2 passes.
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And there is a problem with that?
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We took 410s up to 30k and past in the last scenario. They're not terrible up there. Not great, but not terrible. We were keeping pace with the heavy 190A8s and even outpacing them several times. Definitely better than a heavy A8 at altitude.
Like Lusche said, the problem is you need to already be at alt and waiting for the targets. Since that's almost impossible most times, you're going to find you do a lot of chasing for very little reward.
The up-side? When you do catch them it is QUITE a reward, indeed! Those few seconds of joy keep you going through the hours of boredom chasing. At least, it seems to keep me going.
At military power the 410 can outclimb the 190A8, and below 30k the 410 is faster at Mil power, that's about where the buck stops for the 410 vs A8 at high altitude.
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/AH%20Junk/190v410speed_zps3d1ee747.png)
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/AH%20Junk/190v410climb_zps2ef00d9e.png)
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And there is a problem with that?
Yeah... Actually, it kinda precludes any engagement constituting an intercept. "Oh, I intercepted the ball... 2 yards past the goal line :("
The fact is that interception requires you to engage before they drop, and the 410 simply can't do that in many cases.
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Yeah... Actually, it kinda precludes any engagement constituting an intercept. "Oh, I intercepted the ball... 2 yards past the goal line :("
The fact is that interception requires you to engage before they drop, and the 410 simply can't do that in many cases.
Do you even play this game?? why are you in the help and training forum stirring things up?
If you must post in here plz keep it on subject and of a helpful nature or take it to the O'club.
:salute
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Do you even play this game?? why are you in the help and training forum stirring things up?
If you must post in here plz keep it on subject and of a helpful nature or take it to the O'club.
:salute
Off and on. And I'm not attempting to stir things up, just got side tracked by Torquilla's maunderings. Sorry.
Anyway, back on topic: Theres pretty much no way you can actually intercept bombers at high altitude, without having at LEAST 25 minutes warning, assuming you engage right out of the climb.
And up at high altitudes, the performance is abyssamal wth heavy gun packages and fuel, and if you go Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recoverterceptor.
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While I agree with tank that most of the time there is little point chasing a heavily damaged or rtb bomber, most of the time you have no idea if its a second runner.
I have let bombers go in the past only to see them re-run.
Its not as simple as you think.
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While I agree with tank that most of the time there is little point chasing a heavily damaged or rtb bomber, most of the time you have no idea if its a second run.
I have let bombers go in the past only to see them re-run.
Its not as simple as you think.
You miss my point: It takes the 410 almost 12 minutes to reach 20k when light, and with the same firepower as an A8. The "exit the sector" comment was just to give a feel for how unimpressive that is. For comparison, the K4 can make 10k in around 2.1 minutes, 20K in under 5 minutes, and 30K in less than 9.
Just stop and think about that for a second.... Even at greater than twice the rate of climb of the 410, the K4 will still be hard-pressed to intercept and shoot down a set of B-24's at 20K without making stupid dead-six attacks.... assuming he upped the instant he saw the base flash.
Double that time, and the B-24s have already made their second pass if they're good. And by reaching 20K, you've already used up all your WEP, and so are even slower than your max numbers would suggest. Accelerating will be an issue, since you've climbed at around 170mph the entire time, and the bombers are doing roughly 287mph. Now he's turned for his third and final pass, and is lined up on targets.....
See what I mean? The 410 simply cannot intercept and engage typical bombers at even med-high alt, under anything but the absolute best of circumstances. If you want to say "Well, it might happen..." fine, but the Help & Training section isn't a great place for long-odds.
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Off and on. And I'm not attempting to stir things up, just got side tracked by Torquilla's maunderings. Sorry.
lol I am not trying to stir things up and I have been resisting the temptation to make fun of Tank-Ace for weeks now...
but honestly :rofl
maunderings?!?! seriously? :headscratch: not content with merely butchering the English language on a regular basis, Tank-Ace is now making up his own words to add to it...
and by 'off and on', you mean you haven't had an active subscription since when exactly? I wonder what the great Snail's stats would say about the level of your actual in game activity...when compared to the amount of time you spend spewing your worthless opinions on the game forums
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There is a difference between "Service Ceiling" and "Absolute Ceiling".
If you invest the time and effort, you can reap the rewards.
I'll try the 410 later but the 110 can do something similar if you don't take any ord and the extra gunpod though it takes a substantial amount of fuel leaving you short time to run down high buffs.
Mossie is sweet sweet sweet!!
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8384/8569760006_4b62be2ba0_b.jpg)
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lol I am not trying to stir things up and I have been resisting the temptation to make fun of Tank-Ace for weeks now...
but honestly :rofl
maunderings?!?! seriously? :headscratch: not content with merely butchering the English language on a regular basis, Tank-Ace is now making up his own words to add to it...
and by 'off and on', you mean you haven't had an active subscription since when exactly? I wonder what the great Snail's stats would say about the level of your actual in game activity...when compared to the amount of time you spend spewing your worthless opinions on the game forums
Google it you dip s***. Even if it's not in your English, its in ours, and frankly that carries more weight with me.
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:rofl what a spastic
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:rofl What a spastic.
Such a sour little troll you are. For New Zealand's sake, I hope you're less abrasive and/or stupid in real life than you are here on the forums.
Oh, and its a bit comical, how you make litterally no effort to use correct punctuation after insulting my use of the English language (I've bolded the corrections I've made in your quoted post, for your convenience). In fact, I'd dare say I use it far better than you, despite making more mistakes.
Actually, I think such a large mistake on your part warrants more than just a verbal thrashing. On to the ignore list you go; congratulations, you've succeeded in losing the little respect I had left for you. Goodbye.
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...and the hijack is complete.
ack-ack
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Off and on. And I'm not attempting to stir things up, just got side tracked by Torquilla's maunderings. Sorry.
I see you cant help yourself! This is help and training forum,if you have a personal agenda or feel you just have to comment off topic,plz pm the player and leave it out of this forum.
I dont have the option of ignoring this forum,it's part of the duties of a trainer but I dont have time or care to read the nonsense you spew here. AS I said take it to the O'club or PM the player.
I'm not sure how you even post here,werent you PNG'd as nemisis??
:salute
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...and the hijack is complete.
ack-ack
I hear you're supposed to get whacked by the hammer harder in this forum too, supposedly.
*popcorn*
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I figured the same as Babs, this ain't the place for agendas.
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Babs, charts are one thing, but in practice the loaded 190A8 can barely fly level at 30K. Even light combat loads on the 190A8 only allow a small improvement of performance. At 30K+ the 410 isn't exactly graceful, but it handled the rare air noticably better than the 190A8s I've used to hunt bombers.
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Totally, the stability of the 110 and 410 more then make it worth the trip (mossie is darned good as well I hear from icepac). After a few sorties of flawless runs with the 50mm, its hard to go back to the other stuff :/
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I will agree with you if that is all you really want. When you're finally above 30k in the 110 or 410 and not overladen, it's larger wingspan is its strongest card. Wingspan is the ones thing the A8 is particularly lagging behind on at 27k+ (so is the D9, thus the 152 came along), particularly the subvarient that it is modeled after. Never a 190-A9 around in AH when you need it though, chyaknow.
For being about equal with the 410 at extreme altitudes I think the A8 is still a better choice though - it has better survivability (smaller shape/target, "tougher" than the 410 in many aspects) and can get turned around and repositioned faster at higher speeds (it's a trade off, if you keep your speed up in the A8 and don't force it to turn too hard with it's stuby and heavy wings then all is well, but too much speed in the 410 can be very bad so it forces you to govern the top speed in high-alt slashing attacks. After a pass the 410 is slower than an A8 would be, but it still can turn around and reposition almost as well if not better than the faster A8, but the 410 is now in a slower state/position for pressing the next attack than the A8.
(^ what is BnZ 101)
You claimed the 410 is superior to the A8 due to outpacing it while flying alongside them in the scenario. Charts proove this is only possible above 29.5k with no WEP (and also possible betwen 7.5 and 12.5k with no WEP). 410s also have better internal and external fuel reserves, it was feasable for 410s to take off with enough fuel to fly the entire scenario at full throttle, but the A8s must fly economicaly to loiter long enough.
One of my favorite features of the 410 and 110 in high altitude work is that you dont need an external fuel tank and its penalties to still have a luxurious amount of fuel to work with, nor do you need the heaviest cannon packages to still hot-knife through buffs, all this works in your favor when most other single-engine aircraft will need to slap on extra tanks and drag them around or heavier-than-normal gun and ammo loadouts to meet their high-altitude and long-duration (buff escort) or heavy-hitting (buff interception) needs.
I personally feel the 410 is equal at high-altitude buff interception work with the 190-A8 on a performance level, in AH. If AH had an A9 or one of the dozen-other 190 A8 varients that Germany produced, then I suspect the 410 would take a place behind them in performance.... a place that the 410 historicaly did find itself in during WWII.