Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Randy1 on April 09, 2013, 01:38:28 PM
-
I keep separate planes setup for fighter and attack. Right now I use the P38J for air to air work "Fighter" and the P38L always set for the "Attack" mode with bombs and rockets set for air to ground. Just makes it easy for me for quick selection and I could never remember to change the scoring thing.
I like P47s as well. Both have great load outs for ground work and both perform the function well.
Do you think though the P47's damage model is a little stronger against the ground AK than the P38?
-
B-38 is a bigger plane so tends to get hit more, but also has more parts that can fail before immobilizing the aircraft.
I prefer the JUG.
-
The main thing I like about the B-38 is, loaded up with 100% fuel, bombs, and rockets it will still climb and accelerate at a half-decent rate. The jug with a full loadout is just a horrible pig.
As far as damage absorption, I feel the 38 can take more sloppy fire than a jug can and still keep ticking. Redundant engine, etc.
Wiley.
-
It pretty much boils down to personal preference, though the P-38 is a much more stable gun platform.
ack-ack
-
I think the 38 is a better rocket platform.
-
P-47 can haul more ordnance but as someone else pointed out earlier the 38 will climb a little better, it also has more internal fuel. I also think the 38 would give you more options after the ordnance is expended if you had to fight your way out at low altitude.
-
I agree with what ^^he^^ says.
-
In my tests any twin engined fighter-bomber will handle its ordnance substantially better than a single engined fighter. It is most noticeable in climb, but even speed on the deck shows it.
Speeds at SL:
P-47N, 50% fuel:
Clean MIL: 327mph
Clean WEP: 366mph
Laden MIL : 277mph
Laden WEP: 316mph
P-51D, 50% fuel:
Clean MIL: 355mph
Clean WEP: 368mph
Laden MIL : 304mph
Laden WEP: 315mph
F4U-1D, 100% fuel:
Clean MIL: 342mph
Clean WEP: 356mph
Laden MIL : 294mph
Laden WEP: 308mph
P-38L, 75% fuel:
Clean MIL: 333mph
Clean WEP: 345mph
Laden MIL : 299mph
Laden WEP: 314mph
Mosquito Mk VI, 50% fuel:
Clean MIL: 320mph
Clean WEP: 357mph
Laden (four 500lb) MIL : 308mph
Laden (four 500lb) WEP: 343mph
Laden (two 500lb & eight 60lb) MIL : 300mph
Laden (two 500lb & eight 60lb) WEP: 333mph
Bf110G-2, 75% fuel:
Clean MIL: 311mph
Clean WEP: 322mph
Laden MIL : 298mph
Laden WEP: 309mph
-
I prefer the jug. For me at least, the 38 seems to fall apart every sortie I fly it although I do have a tendency to attract fighters.
The pros and cons for me;
P-47
Pros:
More bombs
Higher speed in a dive
More rugged engine
Better handling (a personal observation, it seems to be more responsive than the 38)
Higher ceiling
Better visibility
Cons:
Only one engine
Lower climb rate
Less range (not actually tested, just assuming on this one)
P-38
Pros:
Acceleration
Climb rate
Range
Fail safe with engines
Packs a 20mm
Cons:
Liquid cooled engines
Falls apart when BBs are thrown at it
Poor visibility below the plane
-
I keep separate planes setup for fighter and attack. Right now I use the P38J for air to air work "Fighter" and the P38L always set for the "Attack" mode with bombs and rockets set for air to ground.
Ok, quick question. Why do you prefer the P38J for air to air? I fly the P38L almost all the time. My favorite plane.
BTW, I have seen you in the P38, you are pretty good.
-
Ok, quick question. Why do you prefer the P38J for air to air? I fly the P38L almost all the time. My favorite plane.
BTW, I have seen you in the P38, you are pretty good.
Mongoose, two reasons. The first is I could never remember to change the scoring button from "Fighter to "Attack" or vice versa. I keep the J set for fighter and the L for Attack. The second reason is the sparkle on the L makes this big bird so easy to see. Even if you select a different paint scheme not everyone downloads skins.
Thanks Mongoose for the compliment. Your a doggone good stick too. Last night seems like though I got my butt handed to me no matter what I did.
I really enjoy the P38 but it seems like the AK takes one engine out more often than not. Last night I had my first double engine hit but it was from a fighter pass.
Delirum in a training session pushed me too show the slim side of the 38 to an attacker. I need to work that into my everyday tactics.
Good replies all. Thanks for the input.
-
I say you can't have a thread like this and not mention the Mossi! :rock No, it doesn't carry the same weight as either the P38L or P47D25/-40/-N, but the ability to carry 4/500 lbs bombs and have the quad 20mm's is not to be underestimated. Oh, and not to mention the speed factor as well. The biggest downfall in comparing the three planes is that the Mossi needs supporting fighters more so because it is limited in the fighter role. That, and the bigger size of the Mossi attracts auto-ack like a fly to horde monkeys.
-
38L all the way baby. :rock
The Jug (any flavor) is probably my second favorite bomb truck, but honestly the only reason I'd choose it over a 38 is if I was taking out a VH and knew I needed an extra bomb for a stray GV.
-
Delirum in a training session pushed me too show the slim side of the 38 to an attacker. I need to work that into my everyday tactics.
Good replies all. Thanks for the input.
Minor sidebar- While it's absolutely critical in the 38, that is equally useful in all aircraft. Doing it all the time is a good habit to get into, no matter what you're flying.
Wiley.
-
Do you think though the P47's damage model is a little stronger against the ground AK than the P38?
Yes. The p38 has more redundant parts, but they get shot off. Spend some time in the ack and your garuanteed a radiator hit. For survivability, the p47. It's immune to radiator hits and has enough oil to rtb with time to spare. Could probably knock out a few guns before you have to head home. Also, p47 less prone to compression so you can come in steep and fast, another factor that adds to its survivability.
Otherwise, a heavy p38 out performs a heavy jug in both climb and speed
Another thing, if you don't drop both wing ords at the same in a p47, it gets really unstable. Not so much in a p38.
-
I attack the ground with a P38 and so far the ground has won every single time. :furious
-
I think the P47 is much better at ground attacks. I plan on upping a P38 tonight and flying it really crappy to prove I am correct. I think I will hunt Wiley.
-
Only problem with D40.....unless he's in a whord, he's dead meat after dropping down to <5k to drop ords.......even more likely if he makes 2-3 passes. It's slower then the spixteen and Lgays which are capping the field.....and it's unlikely the D40 will fight it's way out of it (be patient, use wep judiciously, fly the N)
-
Only problem with D40.....unless he's in a whord, he's dead meat after dropping down to <5k to drop ords.......even more likely if he makes 2-3 passes. It's slower then the spixteen and Lgays which are capping the field.....and it's unlikely the D40 will fight it's way out of it (be patient, use wep judiciously, fly the N)
A clean p38 is still slower than a clean D40. After ords are released, D40 is the clear winner if trying to get away is your only concern.
I take issue with the rest of your post because it presumes that a D40 will get low n slow over an enemy field, while the p38 will not, for no other reason than it's a p38.
Oh, and before I forget, N > D40.
-
In my tests any twin engined fighter-bomber will handle its ordnance substantially better than a single engined fighter. It is most noticeable in climb, but even speed on the deck shows it.
A special thanks to Karnak for all the data.
I say you can't have a thread like this and not mention the Mossi!
Not a lot more scary than to realize your in a HO with a Mossi. You don't win those.
Yes. The p38 has more redundant parts, but they get shot off. Spend some time in the ack and your garuanteed a radiator hit. For survivability, the p47. It's immune to radiator hits and has enough oil to rtb with time to spare. Could probably knock out a few guns before you have to head home. Also, p47 less prone to compression so you can come in steep and fast, another factor that adds to its survivability.
Otherwise, a heavy p38 out performs a heavy jug in both climb and speed
Another thing, if you don't drop both wing ords at the same in a p47, it gets really unstable. Not so much in a p38.
One advantage to the P38 I had forgotten is no oil on the windshield.
Minor sidebar- While it's absolutely critical in the 38, that is equally useful in all aircraft. Doing it all the time is a good habit to get into, no matter what you're flying.
Wiley.
Wiley, I get so tied up in the fight I forget about the smart things to do. :(
-
Yes. The p38 has more redundant parts, but they get shot off. Spend some time in the ack and your garuanteed a radiator hit. For survivability, the p47. It's immune to radiator hits and has enough oil to rtb with time to spare. Could probably knock out a few guns before you have to head home. Also, p47 less prone to compression so you can come in steep and fast, another factor that adds to its survivability.
Otherwise, a heavy p38 out performs a heavy jug in both climb and speed
Another thing, if you don't drop both wing ords at the same in a p47, it gets really unstable. Not so much in a p38.
NOW YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT! :furious :bhead :devil
-
The P38 performs better on paper, but i never could get used to that bird. Liked the jug's handling characteristics much better, even though the synthetic performance might have been weaker.
I just couldnt live withouth the torque effects.
-
The P47 was voted the best fighter bomber of all time.
It could carry more ord then the 38 or the 51.
An extra 500 lbs. bomb would prohibit climb dontcha think? LOL
The 38 should climb faster...it has a 66 foot wing span fer crissakes.
The P47 would sustain more battle damage and still make it home. That fact is undisputed.
After completing escort a group of P47s decided to strafe the airbase at Lille. This group from the 56th
dove down and started the strafe run. It was a trap. Here are the facts.
The 56th rolled in on Lille, flak batteries were waiting. The flight was led by
61st FS CO and 11.5 kill Ace
Jim Stewart. The date April 1 1944. Thomas Owens of the 61st sustained hits from the flak and took hit in the fuel tanks.
The CO (stewart) yelled for Owens to bail. His 47 rolled and went in with Owens in it. While screaming for Owens to bail
Stewart flew in to a telegraph pole. To the amazement of the rest of the 61st FS the telegraph pole came out of the collision
in far worse shape then the Thunderbolt. Part of that telegraph pole made it back home to Halesworth.
The 47 had also the advantage of having an air cooled engine. They took Pilots home with 2 or 3 cylinders shot off.
Anything water cooled was at a distinct disadvantage. Also....the D40 was faster then the P38. It's zoom from a higher speed dive
got it up and out in a hurry. Yes the 38 had two engines...but they were Allisons that were replaced in other aircraft with Merlins
because of their less then sterling single engine performance. Just the facts M'am ;)
Just so ya know. The 56th FG had 42 Aces in the ETO. They flew only P47s. I don't recall any other FG in the 8th, in the ETO, with that many
in any type of aircraft.
-
I attack the ground with a P38 and so far the ground has won every single time. :furious
:lol :lol :lol
I tend to attack the ground a lot.
-
A clean p38 is still slower than a clean D40. After ords are released, D40 is the clear winner if trying to get away is your only concern.
I take issue with the rest of your post because it presumes that a D40 will get low n slow over an enemy field, while the p38 will not, for no other reason than it's a p38.
Oh, and before I forget, N > D40.
if the D40 wants to do more than drop 3k of ord on a hangar and scoot, it will get progressively slower after each pass. My only point about the 38 is it is far able to defend itself down low than the D40 (both of whom would, in the non-whorde scenario, HAVE to fight sooner or later)
-
Doesnt the 47 pull out of a dive better than a 38 ? Maybe its my crappy pilot skills but I tend to lock the controls up on a 38 more readily than 47.
-
Coming out the backside of the attack in tact, a high percentage of the time, with minimal damage, is what I am looking for here.
The 47 does offer the highest speed exit if you had the E going in for the ground attack and that counts on survivability. Not a lot can catch you in the 500 MPH range after a dive. The 38L though has a limited exit speed that is in the reach of more planes with good E if they want to chase you down. This is even more true if you loose an engine on the way out.
Doesnt the 47 pull out of a dive better than a 38 ? Maybe its my crappy pilot skills but I tend to lock the controls up on a 38 more readily than 47.
Tomcat, you get use to keeping a good eye on the speed as you go in. If a steep dive then it is zero throttle and try not starting at more than 8k above the ground.
The downside for me on the P47 is I can't hit anything with the eight 50s but man you got to love all those bullets. :aok
Best I can tell from the replies there is no clear winner albeit the discussions were excellent.
Thanks again for the input.
-
Coming out the backside of the attack in tact, a high percentage of the time, with minimal damage, is what I am looking for here.
If you're just trying to drop and scoot, the P47 is the better choice. You can dive faster which means you have more E to work with at the bottom of your dive.
My anecdotal experience is slightly different when jaboing a carrier group though. I can't remember the last time I survived the puffy when attacking in a P47. Something critical always gets knocked out. With the 38, I usually can make my run and get out with the plane in a controllable state unless a good 5 inch gunner happens to be on the boat.
YMMV of course.
Wiley.
-
The 38 should climb faster...it has a 66 foot wing span
52 feet :old:
LtngRydr
-
P-47 is the more survivable dive bomber. If all you want is to release the bombs on target and get out of there alive, this is your plane, especially the N.
P-38 will reach the target faster and is better when operating at low altitudes where you do not dive and reach terminal speeds.
I say you can't have a thread like this and not mention the Mossi! :rock No, it doesn't carry the same weight as either the P38L or P47D25/-40/-N, but the ability to carry 4/500 lbs bombs and have the quad 20mm's is not to be underestimated. Oh, and not to mention the speed factor as well. The biggest downfall in comparing the three planes is that the Mossi needs supporting fighters more so because it is limited in the fighter role.
I beg to differ. Under 15k I fear very few planes when in the Moss VI. At these alts I consider it a better fighter than the P47 and better the lower the fight gets. Heavily dependent on the WEP though. If I lose a fight it is because the other pilot outflew me, or I simply screwed up.
Mossie VI is not a good dive bomber by any standard. The 4*500 is an OK load, but not impressive by any means. It accelerates too fast in a dive and difficult to slow down and if the hand on the speed gauge gets to 480 while you are still pointing 30 deg or more below the horizon, you are dead.
-
:lol :lol :lol
I tend to attack the ground a lot.
:rofl
Im right there with ya....We should start a support group.... :D
-
I think the D-40 is the better of the planes for ground attack and not just because I'm a Jug geek. It hauls more ord and (thanks to the new damage model) will absorb more ack hits allowing more passes with less likelihood of critical damage. I think it's every bit as capable as a fighter once light as any P-38 as well. The ony advantage the p-38 has is the ability to get to initial altitude quicker. Once on the attack run, the jug doesn't compress as quickly as the 38 so the zoom on the back side will get you the same or better E retention. A couple weeks ago, I took a D-40 on an ammo bunker attack to slow down the Bish. I loaded 3 500s, some rockets, and 75% fuel and set off. My target was a medium field where bombers were departing but away from the main thrust of Bish attacks. I had to make four passes through the ack to get the ammo bunkers and the radar. It normally only takes me 2 or three, but my aim was off and I missed with two of my eggs and had to use guns to polish off two bunkers. After taking hits but no damage, I proceeded to a small adjacent field and gunned down those ammo bunkers as well. Still taking ack hits but no damage. Fuel was becoming an issue but I decided to press my luck and head to the main base where most of the enemy was departing. I arrived at the base with 7 minutes of fuel and gunned down the two ammo bunkers there. This time I lost an aileron and a gun making my pass. A Spit-16 came out to meet me and I got tied up fighting him for a couple minutes before I was able to kill him. Now I was fuel critical and had a Typh running me down before I could recover some speed from the fight with the spit. I managed to make the Typh overshoot and was pumping the last of my ammo into him when the fuel ran out. I ended up ditching and giving the Typh the proxie.
In one run, I made 8 passes through field ack, destroyed 8 ammo bunkers at 3 fields, one radar tower, killed a spit, damaged a Typh and didn't RTB only because I didn't load 100% fuel.
-
I think the D-40 is the better of the planes for ground attack and not just because I'm a Jug geek. It hauls more ord and (thanks to the new damage model) will absorb more ack hits allowing more passes with less likelihood of critical damage. I think it's every bit as capable as a fighter once light as any P-38 as well. The ony advantage the p-38 has is the ability to get to initial altitude quicker. Once on the attack run, the jug doesn't compress as quickly as the 38 so the zoom on the back side will get you the same or better E retention. A couple weeks ago, I took a D-40 on an ammo bunker attack to slow down the Bish. I loaded 3 500s, some rockets, and 75% fuel and set off. My target was a medium field where bombers were departing but away from the main thrust of Bish attacks. I had to make four passes through the ack to get the ammo bunkers and the radar. It normally only takes me 2 or three, but my aim was off and I missed with two of my eggs and had to use guns to polish off two bunkers. After taking hits but no damage, I proceeded to a small adjacent field and gunned down those ammo bunkers as well. Still taking ack hits but no damage. Fuel was becoming an issue but I decided to press my luck and head to the main base where most of the enemy was departing. I arrived at the base with 7 minutes of fuel and gunned down the two ammo bunkers there. This time I lost an aileron and a gun making my pass. A Spit-16 came out to meet me and I got tied up fighting him for a couple minutes before I was able to kill him. Now I was fuel critical and had a Typh running me down before I could recover some speed from the fight with the spit. I managed to make the Typh overshoot and was pumping the last of my ammo into him when the fuel ran out. I ended up ditching and giving the Typh the proxie.
In one run, I made 8 passes through field ack, destroyed 8 ammo bunkers at 3 fields, one radar tower, killed a spit, damaged a Typh and didn't RTB only because I didn't load 100% fuel.
Yeah... but the 38 looks better doing it. :D
-
Yeah... but the 38 looks better doing it. :D
If a ball of twisted smoking aluminum is attractive then, by all means, take the 38. :devil
-
If a ball of twisted smoking aluminum is attractive then, by all means, take the 38. :devil
That's just when I fly it.. :(
-
LilMak makes the Jug fly like a spixteen.
I fly both the 38 and the 47 equally poorly. I usually prefer the 47 since it does not compress as quickly, this allows me to dive from 15K and still be able to avoid the lawn dart.
-
It hit me today that the type of target would also determine which is better. Since energy loss from bullets is calculated for GV and not buildings, the difference would determine the ideal plane when it came down to strafing.
Again, I would personally take the 47. If think that the 8-.50s would pack more punch against a building than 2-20mm and 4-.50s. If you are low enough to be strafing a building with your guns then you should be able to make quick work of any planes trying to take off as well. :devil
If attacking GVs, then yes take the 38. The 20mm should pack more of a punch against them (since you will only be able to track them anyway).
And please feel free to correct me at any time.
-
And please feel free to correct me at any time.
P-38 only has one 20mm cannon, not two.
ack-ack
-
If I had to pick between the P-38 and P-47 I'd take the Jug. More ord, faster in a dive with great zoom climb ability and carries more ord if you want it. The P-38's compression issues take too much away from it's dive bombing capabilites.
Thankfully I don't have to choose between those two. I use the F6F-5 which is stable in a high speed dive, also has decent zoom capabilites and is a great fighter after the ord is dropped. Oddly, for a rotary it became highly suseptable to oil hits after it was updated. I'm thinking that's probably not modeled correctly.
-
I think the D-40 is the better of the planes for ground attack and not just because I'm a Jug geek. It hauls more ord and (thanks to the new damage model) will absorb more ack hits allowing more passes with less likelihood of critical damage.
. . .
Since I started this post I have alternated attack planes between the P51, P38L, P47D-40 and the P47N. In a quick summary the P47 and P38 are well suited for the attack role but the 500 MPH plus exit speed and ack resistance gives the P47 just enough advantage to make it my choice. Here are my thoughts.
The P51 has the exit speed as well but it takes the same engine hit that the 38 gets but only has the one engine and doesn't match the load out of the the 38 and 47.
The P38L as everyone noted gets you there better than the P47s on Mil power. Excellent load-out goes without saying. Diving is a problem that you must control but it is easy to do but it does limit exit speed. Just not quite enough exit speed to assure escape if it is a hot field or town especially with the loss of one engine. No doubt a solid plane if the greens have near air superiority. The odds of loosing one engine I am guessing is near 30% with the first pass 40% on the second and near 75% with three or more. After ord drops, the P38 has a slight but noticeable advantage over the P47 in air to air. That advantage is not noticed on the first merge but the P47 looses E quicker than the 38 so each merge the 47 falls little short of the P38. Of course if you get the kill on the first or second merge they are coequal.
The P47s has a better load-out than the P38 with the third bomb option. Without WEP, climb-out is slow falling short of the P38 by far. Add the massive P47 WEP and it is as good as the P38 on Mil power. Dive speed is unchallenged so that is a clear advantage to the P47. As others have noted I use WEP on climb out for most of the trip so that counters the advantage of the P38 on mil power. As LilMak noted, the P47 is durable although I did loose an engine on one attack on the first pass. The P47 was better than the 38 on damage resistance albeit, the second engine on the P38 might save your butt. Now the one big advantage the P47 has over the P38 is the escape speed. Exiting at 500 MPH plus is clear advantage when the red guys chase you after ords drop. Some people call it running but i call it escaping. That high speed exit gave me more options and the more options the better.
Now the question is P47N or the P47D-40.
Thanks everyone for the replies. It has been interesting reading the different thoughts.
-
I climb on WEP. It's a risk/benefit analysis. Risk=running out of WEP when you need it. Benefit=Less boredom stuck in auto-climb.
So for me, the choice is easy: N jug. The Nancy on 50% fuel with WEP outclimbs the D40 at 100% fuel by about 100ft/min. Flight times will be roughly equal. The Nancy is also a better fighter.
-
Yeah, just give it a few minutes to cool off in case you have to fight
-
I climb on WEP. It's a risk/benefit analysis. Risk=running out of WEP when you need it. Benefit=Less boredom stuck in auto-climb.
So for me, the choice is easy: N jug. The Nancy on 50% fuel with WEP outclimbs the D40 at 100% fuel by about 100ft/min. Flight times will be roughly equal. The Nancy is also a better fighter.
At what altitude ?
-
. . . The Nancy on 50% fuel with WEP outclimbs the D40 at 100% fuel by about 100ft/min. Flight times will be roughly equal. The Nancy is also a better fighter.
That is interesting on the climb out. The N being a better fighter with both clean and the same weight of fuel is open for debate. I have seen Redbull work over people with the N though. I want to say Latrobe took an N out a few weeks back.
-
'Nancy' is a very unmanly name for such an awesome plane....'November' far more fitting.....been using it as primary fighter ride for years, never tire of it
-
'Nancy' is a very unmanly name for such an awesome plane....'November' far more fitting.....been using it as primary fighter ride for years, never tire of it
"Nancy" and "Mary". Real men fly D's. ;)
Wiley.
-
If you goal is purely get away speed, the N is your bird. But if you waste your WEP on the climb, you've wasted that advantage. The N is great till the WEP runs out. Once the WEP is gone, it's the worst jug of the bunch.
-
Threads like these are fun to watch develop. Just remember there is no "best", only "better for X situation". :aok
-
If you goal is purely get away speed, the N is your bird. But if you waste your WEP on the climb, you've wasted that advantage. The N is great till the WEP runs out. Once the WEP is gone, it's the worst jug of the bunch.
uup....N can do some cool stuff on the edge of stall speed, but it needs wep to do it
-
uup....N can do some cool stuff on the edge of stall speed, but it needs wep to do it
Exactly.
-
The D40 is no slouch that is for sure. I had sworn I would never take it out of the hanger again but there are times you can get rhythm going with it in continuous high yo-yo's that is just plain fun. Well fun till the pickers get over your head.
I keep leaning toward the D40 if nothing else for its climbing in an air to air. It still has that escape speed it just can't hold it as fast if the N has WEP.
The M with ords, now that would be interesting.
-
The D-40 is the best all around jug of the bunch IMO. I flew it exclusively before the N was released and had much more success in it as a fighter then because no one ever expected a dogfight out of a 47 and almost always underestimated it. Since the N and M were released, people take Thunderbolts more seriously.
-
The D-40 is the best all around jug of the bunch IMO. I flew it exclusively before the N was released and had much more success in it as a fighter then because no one ever expected a dogfight out of a 47 and almost always underestimated it. Since the N and M were released, people take Thunderbolts more seriously.
The N has moments of brilliance, but if I had to choose which single model of Jug my own personal Aces High air force would buy, it'd be the D40.
When it comes to D-40 vs 38L in the Jabo role, the D-40 wins.
-Yes it is slower getting to the target, but it's not like you'd dogfight an LA in a heavy 38L. End result is the most important factor here.
-In terms of total ord, the D-40 has an edge in the centerline 500lb bomb. Jugs also do 2500+ damage w full ammo vs ~2000 for the 38
-For strafing the 38L is a more stable platform with better convergence and more total firing time, but the 20mm goes fast leaving you with around 20 seconds of just 4x50 cals.
-Given the longer time needed to keep the nose on a ground target, larger target profile and inferior toughness, the 38 is vastly inferior in the strafing role.
-When it comes to capping a field and fighting low, pilot skill is the single most important factor.
-Asking the 38's acceleration to get you out of trouble is a better proposition than asking the jug to do same, but still a bad question.
-The 38 cannot turn, run, climb, accelerate or roll (low speed) than the Spit16. The Jug can outdive and outrun 16 or at least shrug off enough hits to make slow scissors a semi-palatable prospect.
Best (non-perked) Jabos in game IMHO:
1. F6F-5 --It's not only a competitive all-rounder, it's THERE.
2. P-47D-40 -- Best overall performance in A-G role once at target.
3. P-38L -- Gets there quick, but packs less than D40 and fragile.
4. F4U-1D --Might score higher if not for the single fuel tank
5. P-47N --Would score higher if not so dependent on WEP to shine...
6. Typhoon --Mixed bag. Good snapshot firepower, short clip, decent ord, but fragile. Perhaps the best for running after "the deed"
7. P-51D --Same fragility issue as 38 minus redundancy, slower "luggi'n speed"
8. N1K --Heavy firepower, big clip, good low.
9. P-47D25 --Same general traits as D40 minus rocket and a little climb
10. FW190A8 --Best point attack aircraft due to heavy FP, small profile but limited ord, poor in a turning fight.
The heavy stuff-A-20, Mossie and 110/410 are all good, but I don't consider them fighters unless Razor, Cobia or Widewing is in the cockpit ;)
-
D40 outrun spixteen?
-
D40 outrun spixteen?
Yes. But not in the 150-> 345 KIAS "drag race sense", I'm talking "escape." Given equal WEP, equal initial speed of 300+ (eliminates Spit low-end accel advantage) at an initial alt of ~8k, Spit16 ~1.0 out, a dive to deck will open dist slightly. WEP on, Spit will barely creep back when on deck. By the time Spit is 800 out, you'll both be low/out of WEP half a sector or more toward toward friendlies. After WEP runs out, Jug has a tangible advantage over S16 below 5k. The 38 on the other hand can't open up as big a gap in such a small dive space. The Spits are spraying and praying from 800 well before the WEP runs out and much more likely to get lucky damaging the 38 than the Jug.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
Done it many a time, just have to keep the alt as insurance, dive saves the F6F (short term) much of time too. I'd rather be in a Jug getting chased by a Spit than a Spit being chased by a Jug any day. A smart Spit driver would...nevermind... :noid
-
D40 outrun spixteen?
Nope. Same speed @ MA alts. M and N are faster but you better have a head start.
-
The heavy stuff-A-20, Mossie and 110/410 are all good, but I don't consider them fighters unless Razor, Cobia or Widewing is in the cockpit ;)
The A20 has great flaps, a light 110 is actually a monster turner in downhill mode, but the 410 is truly horrible.
-
Just to throw it out there;
410 is the best de-acker in the game cause of the 50mm high rate of fire/range and multile attack options (added dive bomb approach with dive flaps).
410 50mm can kill most tanks from the right attack angle as well as being able to hit flakkers and other lighter vehicles from very long ranges. Albiet the accuracy sucks. You can theoretically get 22 heavy armour kills alone in a sortie.
A few 50mm does the radar in with 3-4 shots easy from good distance.
50mm is ok against town buildings, but does lack ammo.
410 takes a beating and is fairly low profile for a plane of its weight.
-
I find myself looking for the attribute of escape speed because of those times you end up on a field attack just as the reds start lifting off in large numbers or you end are out of sequence with all the green guys going down or out of fuel. You might get just one pass on a hanger before you get swarmed. A P38 just can't escape but the 47s have a chance.
Not only that but I don't care how many targets are available for the reds a P38 will get the most attention. I had a film of 10 reds chasing my 38 on the deck halfway across the sector. It emptied the base. The remaining green guys had a free hand with the field. My squad mates look forward to my selecting a 38. It is like bait.
-
Yes. But not in the 150-> 345 KIAS "drag race sense", I'm talking "escape." Given equal WEP, equal initial speed of 300+ (eliminates Spit low-end accel advantage) at an initial alt of ~8k, Spit16 ~1.0 out, a dive to deck will open dist slightly. WEP on, Spit will barely creep back when on deck. By the time Spit is 800 out, you'll both be low/out of WEP half a sector or more toward toward friendlies. After WEP runs out, Jug has a tangible advantage over S16 below 5k. The 38 on the other hand can't open up as big a gap in such a small dive space. The Spits are spraying and praying from 800 well before the WEP runs out and much more likely to get lucky damaging the 38 than the Jug.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
Done it many a time, just have to keep the alt as insurance, dive saves the F6F (short term) much of time too. I'd rather be in a Jug getting chased by a Spit than a Spit being chased by a Jug any day. A smart Spit driver would...nevermind... :noid
that was pretty much my thoughts....except the pursuit typically STARTS at our near deck, and the guy in the D40 is eventually is forced to begin a fight with a spit on his 6
-
Just to throw it out there;
410 is the best de-acker in the game cause of the 50mm high rate of fire/range and multile attack options (added dive bomb approach with dive flaps).
B-25H is. It can take out acks further out then the Me 410 can.
ack-ack
-
B-25H is. It can take out acks further out then the Me 410 can.
ack-ack
What is the difference in rate of fire though?
-
The range on the 25H kinda negates the slower rate of fire. One ranging shot is usually all you need for the big gun and then it's pretty easy to take out guns <Marv Albert voice> from way downtown. Plus, you've got a whole buncha 50's to back ya up if you flub one. :rock
25H is my favorite non-fighter in the game by far.
-
While a possibility, it can't do it while diving vertical (lose wings).
Thus is why the 410 is the better of the two.
-
While a possibility, it can't do it while diving vertical (lose wings).
Thus is why the 410 is the better of the two.
You can divebomb in a 25H... albeit not from 12k with power on. Why would you want to dive on anything though? Loiter slowly and punish with the cannon! :D
-
Thats only practical if you want to harass v fields with no cap, when you are facing a solid fighter cap at low-mid alts on a main field or a large one, it is by far the best.
Sheesh, even a spitfire can clear a v field pretty soundly :X
-
Thats only practical if you want to harass v fields with no cap, when you are facing a solid fighter cap at low-mid alts on a main field or a large one, it is by far the best.
Sheesh, even a spitfire can clear a v field pretty soundly :X
I don't think a 25H or a 410 is going to do much deacking with a solid enemy fighter cap on the field.
-
As far as damage value in terms of egg delivery goes,no other attack plane can match the Havoc
-
I find myself looking for the attribute of escape speed because of those times you end up on a field attack just as the reds start lifting off in large numbers or you end are out of sequence with all the green guys going down or out of fuel. You might get just one pass on a hanger before you get swarmed. A P38 just can't escape but the 47s have a chance.
Not only that but I don't care how many targets are available for the reds a P38 will get the most attention. I had a film of 10 reds chasing my 38 on the deck halfway across the sector. It emptied the base. The remaining green guys had a free hand with the field. My squad mates look forward to my selecting a 38. It is like bait.
The trick here isn't "looking for the attribute of escape speed" it is learning how to bomb well, and then FIGHT with your chosen plane. If you find your self screaming along the deck with a conga line following you it is most likely because you dropped much to low, or you dove through bad guys to get your bombs off.
Learning how and when to bomb better will keep you out of those situations better. Learning how to fight will help you finish off those foolish enough to follow you. Both the 38 and 47 zoom very well, better than most. Nose down for speed, start a slow climb to drag out the bandits, then zoom until you hit 45 MPH (the 47, not so slow), roll over and kill them all on the way down. :devil
I think learning to fight first and then to bomb is the best way to go. After all, MOST don't just chuck their plane after they drop :noid
-
that was pretty much my thoughts....except the pursuit typically STARTS at our near deck, and the guy in the D40 is eventually is forced to begin a fight with a spit on his 6
Yes, if pursuit starts on the deck, good luck...
As for being able to cap a field, a D40 free of ord with half a tank of gas will give a Spit 9 (~3800fpm) a run for its money. If you're starting the BnZ bit 5-6k above Spit 16s, you negate most of their 1k fpm (~4800) climb advantage by forcing the break turn. The D40 in particular can BnZ better climbers for a dangerously long period of time. What about the M Jug? Sure, the numbers are there, but I wouldn't know firsthand, only jug I don't fly. If it weren't for the lack of ANY A-G ord it'd probably be perk worthy. As it is, the M jug basically feels like a pony on steriods with no purpose in life other than shooting down hordes of vastly inferior aircraft. Such horrific lack of versatility is exactly opposite what a jug should be. :bhead
-
What about the M Jug? Sure, the numbers are there, but I wouldn't know firsthand, only jug I don't fly. If it weren't for the lack of ANY A-G ord it'd probably be perk worthy. As it is, the M jug basically feels like a pony on steriods with no purpose in life other than shooting down hordes of vastly inferior aircraft. Such horrific lack of versatility is exactly opposite what a jug should be. :bhead
HUH?! :huh
The Jug was born as a fighter, raised as a fighter, achieved great success as a fighter and only then someone came up with the idea to strap some bombs to it and see what happens. It is a fighter that added the attack option, not the other way around. Versatility was discovered, not designed. The M Jug follows the tradition of the razorbacks as pure high altitude fighters, the role they were made for.
Jugs, not even the M are superior to the other 1945 planes in MA conditions. Take the fight up to 25+ kft and suddenly the purpose of the big clumsy turbo-supercharger becomes a little clearer. At 0-10k the jugs can be formidable opponents, but it still requires a good pilot to use them - they will not win the fight for you.
While I can strap a bomb on to the D11, It feels totally wrong. Same principle applies to the M had it had the option. You do not load a Thoroughbred with sacks like it was some beast of burden!
-
Jugs seem to loose a landing gear as often as a P38 looses and engine. Well, maybe not quite that often.
-
I've had an impressive amount of vert stabs lately..which can't suck enough when you've only one to start with
-
Jugs seem to loose a landing gear as often as a P38 looses and engine. Well, maybe not quite that often.
This has not been my observation. I find nothing tougher than a P47. Also, when it does take damage, it's amazing how many parts you can shed and still limp her home.
The P47 is my friend.
-
When I take hits and see 'landing gear' as the only thing in my damaged list, I fly on with a smile, thanks to the nonessential equipment having taken the hit. :) Same with an oil hit on a jug. Unless I'm far, far from home I keep fighting, as I'll probably run out of ammo before I run out of oil.
Wiley.
-
. . . Same with an oil hit on a jug. Unless I'm far, far from home I keep fighting, as I'll probably run out of ammo before I run out of oil.
Wiley.
That is one advantage the P38 has, no oiled windscreens but it also has a bad blind spot.
I am sold on the P47 as my ground attack plane. The dive speed, the durability, the best fighter load out, loads of bullets and lots of exit speed and it is just not as doggone big of a target after exit.
I took the 47M out several times. It use to be my plane of choice till I spent so much time in the 38. Man you got to love all those bullets on the 47. La7s seem to be more of a problem for a 47 than the 38 but that might have been who was holding the stick. Latrobe handed me my butt in his 109 but I did enjoy the brief fight.
-
That is one advantage the P38 has, no oiled windscreens but it also has a bad blind spot.
What "bad blind spot" does the P-38 have?
ack-ack
-
What "bad blind spot" does the P-38 have?
ack-ack
"Down"? :D
I fly the 47D-11 a lot, as well as the birdcage corsair, but I consider the 38 to have some nasty blind spots at the sides and back low, and the wings cover an awful lot of area compared to most other aircraft.
Like all planes, of course they can be worked around, but when it's not your normal plane, it can feel like it hides a lot with the twin fuselages.
Wiley.
-
HUH?! :huh
The Jug was born as a fighter, raised as a fighter, achieved great success as a fighter and only then someone came up with the idea to strap some bombs to it and see what happens. It is a fighter that added the attack option, not the other way around. Versatility was discovered, not designed. The M Jug follows the tradition of the razorbacks as pure high altitude fighters, the role they were made for.
Jugs, not even the M are superior to the other 1945 planes in MA conditions. Take the fight up to 25+ kft and suddenly the purpose of the big clumsy turbo-supercharger becomes a little clearer. At 0-10k the jugs can be formidable opponents, but it still requires a good pilot to use them - they will not win the fight for you.
While I can strap a bomb on to the D11, It feels totally wrong. Same principle applies to the M had it had the option. You do not load a Thoroughbred with sacks like it was some beast of burden!
Yes, the M is awesome. In fact, if you're used to the D25, it feels downright cheaty. Whatever your opinion of what a Jug should be, you've gotta admit that NOT using such a tough aircraft in the ground pound role is an absolutely tragic waste of talent :D