Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: danny76 on April 15, 2013, 03:25:38 PM

Title: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: danny76 on April 15, 2013, 03:25:38 PM
12 .303's on a Hurri are not really worth the bother of pulling the trigger over about 400 yards. 12 .303's in Lanc turrets seem to be pretty lethal out to 1k. Anyone else noticed this? :headscratch:
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: waystin2 on April 15, 2013, 03:47:21 PM
Nope.  I stay away from bomber tails.  Bad place, baaaaad place.... :uhoh
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: mechanic on April 15, 2013, 03:51:06 PM
There is a lanc loadout with .50s in the tail isn't there? Sure it isn't that you're noticing?
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: danny76 on April 15, 2013, 03:57:28 PM
Nope. definately .303's confirmed by the lanc driver. I spend forevet trying to get above, in front of, to the high side of bombers. After years of playing I still cannot manage it. I can get co alt and climb above fightrrs but bombers, no chance. Never have been able to explain it :headscratch:
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: mechanic on April 15, 2013, 04:00:42 PM
Bombers scare me more than any fighter.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Eric19 on April 15, 2013, 04:36:32 PM
the lanc quad 303s in the tail with 10k rounds is more than enough to kill any fighter in the game it does seem a bit over powering just a 2 second burst from them at a fighters wingroot will shred the wing right off and I have been flying the lanc almost exclusively since the update and its a very good defender now because of the 303s but also they seem to have decreased the amout of damage a lancaster will take I guess to balance out the quad 303s in the tail idk it does seem that its a bit overmodled to me but I would like some more answers on that before jumping to any further conclusions
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: palef on April 15, 2013, 04:54:06 PM
12x.303s in lanc turrets? Or do you mean the 12 presented to the rear by a formation of lancs? If you're behind and slightly above a formation, there are times when there are 18x.303s firing at you.

Also the differences between maneuvering fighters and a relatively stationary buff being attacked by a maneuvering fighter have been well documented elsewhere, so your original analogy isn't that relevant.

There was an argument during WWII between weight of fire and rate of fire, hence the reliance on .303s by the British to start with. However the results of practical experience enabled (lots of senior British fighter pilots were dismissive of pilots opening fire at ranges over 200yds which made the unofficial opinion of a bunch of exceptional pilots almost doctrine) the adoption of cannon and meant that weight of fire, combined with HE cannon shells won the argument, particularly if you were forced to use pilots who wouldn't normally have made the grade in peacetime. A couple of 20mm Hispano rounds did actual damage where a couple of .303 rounds might have gone unremarked.

A bomber gunner is able to engage and track a target in a way that a fighter pilot can't and can adjust for projectile drop and deflection while hosing the target down. There has been a lot of discussion about the effective range of .50s and .303s in regard to buffs and the prevailing wisdom is that a stable platform combined with unconverged buff guns results in the "laser" effect so many complain of.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: FLS on April 15, 2013, 04:56:19 PM
12 .303's on a Hurri are not really worth the bother of pulling the trigger over about 400 yards. 12 .303's in Lanc turrets seem to be pretty lethal out to 1k. Anyone else noticed this? :headscratch:

There's a big difference between shooting at someone in front of you and shooting at someone behind you. When you're flying into the bullets instead of away from them they seem to have a longer range.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: LilMak on April 15, 2013, 07:16:53 PM
Don't think I've been killed by a Lanc since the update and I've brought plenty down.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Gixer on April 15, 2013, 07:56:13 PM
There has been a lot of discussion about the effective range of .50s and .303s in regard to buffs and the prevailing wisdom is that a stable platform combined with unconverged buff guns results in the "laser" effect so many complain of.

And why some timid fighters run to a buff to clear their six. Funny thought it was suppose to be the other way around.    :rolleyes:


<S>...-Gixer
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Dragon Tamer on April 15, 2013, 09:15:56 PM
Bombers scare me more than any fighter.

Was in a furball one time and it was announced that the B-17s coming in had 999000 at the stick. Every friendly scattered away from the 17s with a select, very stupid few going after them. I laughed so hard that day.

I've just decided to not go after bombers unless I have a very clear advantage (over HQ in a 163). I get killt by them every time I try. The only bomber formation that I've been able to kill recently was a group of 17s on the deck going after our CV.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: danny76 on April 16, 2013, 01:04:12 AM
I was not being hit by top turrets, just the rear guns, damage list went : engine oil, gun, gun, radiator, pilot wound, left wing. All in the space of second, to the soundtrack of tingtingtingtingtingtingting
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Bludwulf on April 16, 2013, 01:06:58 AM
Nope. definately .303's confirmed by the lanc driver. I spend forevet trying to get above, in front of, to the high side of bombers. After years of playing I still cannot manage it. I can get co alt and climb above fightrrs but bombers, no chance. Never have been able to explain it :headscratch:
I came in behind 2 Lancs in a Corsair with little difficulty. I heard the failure pinging of the .30cals but it did not stop my attack.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on April 16, 2013, 02:49:32 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Bruv119 on April 16, 2013, 03:05:05 AM
Lancs ARE awesome.   

Work your angles better or attack from more favourable positions. 
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Zoney on April 16, 2013, 08:21:59 AM
Was in a furball one time and it was announced that the B-17s coming in had 999000 at the stick. Every friendly scattered away from the 17s with a select, very stupid few going after them. I laughed so hard that day.

I've just decided to not go after bombers unless I have a very clear advantage (over HQ in a 163). I get killt by them every time I try. The only bomber formation that I've been able to kill recently was a group of 17s on the deck going after our CV.

Then I guess I'm stupid because if I hear that 999000 is around that is the guy I am going to attack.
I want the challenge.  Now granted my heart rate will be a bit higher maybe knowing it's him but I'm going to make patient intelligent passes on him until he is dead.  Not long ago I attacked a set of 17's and killed one on the first pass, 999000 dead.  As I was coming around to reposition for the next pass I saw a group of 4 fighters approaching him from his 6.  I told them on the radio channel that it was 999000.  I warned them that they were in a bad position and that attacks from his 6 would have poor results.  One of the fighters came back, "Yeah, but there's 4 of us!".  So, I watched from a safe position as they were all shot down.  999000 and I were Pm'ing each other and laughing as it was happening.  I then continued my attack taking out another, leaving one to fly away as I wanted him to land his mission.  Unfortunately he had been damaged by me and died before he could land giving me the 3rd kill.

Here's the deal.  Killing bombers is a skill set that you have to obtain from practice and that means you are going to die, a lot, until you figure it out.  Each failure you learn more from than each success.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Rob52240 on April 16, 2013, 09:47:08 AM
for omni directional aerial gunnery we must factor in the vectors and speed of both aircraft.

When you attack tail on you give the tail gunner in the lanc a huge advantage over your forward firing identical guns.

In high school us kids liked to fire bottle rockets at each others cars on the highway.  Gotta be in front to get a hit.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: hitech on April 16, 2013, 10:05:49 AM
for omni directional aerial gunnery we must factor in the vectors and speed of both aircraft.

When you attack tail on you give the tail gunner in the lanc a huge advantage over your forward firing identical guns.

In high school us kids liked to fire bottle rockets at each others cars on the highway.  Gotta be in front to get a hit.

I wonder if this an Iowa thing, because I did the same in in High School in  pickup trucks.

HiTech
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Vinkman on April 16, 2013, 10:19:16 AM
I wonder if this an Iowa thing, because I did the same in in High School in  pickup trucks.

HiTech

A buddy of mine was from Iowa. He said for kicks they used to see how far down a road they could drive, at night, with the lights off. Apparently it so dark at night out there is corn country, that you couldn't see a thing. Any of you other Iowans do the same? 

Another buddy from Minnesota told me they had Shot guns fights across the quarries. The pellets were slow enough that they didn't hurt "much" at those distances.

I grew up in NY where the only dangerous thing we did in high school was, apparently, drink a Coke that was larger than 16oz. I feel inadequate.  :(
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Rob52240 on April 16, 2013, 10:29:48 AM
I wonder if this an Iowa thing, because I did the same in in High School in  pickup trucks.

HiTech
Iowa has 2 things going for it if you want to go fast and or raise heck.

The entire state is covered by a 1 mile grid of straight gravel roads (goes back to the homesteading) that are not patrolled and have a 55mph speed limit.  On average you have 3 or 4 miles between driveways on these roads. 

At night you can actually see quite well, especially in the winter when there's snow cover.  When we'd go skiing in the ditches of these roads at night we had to do it lights off after the eyes got adjusted.  We'd turn on the parking lights when needed for safety.  Headlights at the front of the pickup are too far ahead of the skier and culverts are a squeak when you stop seeing them shortly before going over them.

One of my most exciting college memories was in the back seat of a nissan Z that had just gone through wrong side of a T intersection at a high rate of speed.  Once we realized nobody was hurt we took off running towards the nearest familiar house so nobody would get in trouble.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tunnelrat on April 16, 2013, 10:33:36 AM
In the right hands, the quad .303s are certainly keeping the 6 o'clock of the Lancs safe.  They do seem to hit hard at long range.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: hitech on April 16, 2013, 11:21:04 AM
Iowa has 2 things going for it if you want to go fast and or raise heck.

The entire state is covered by a 1 mile grid of straight gravel roads (goes back to the homesteading) that are not patrolled and have a 55mph speed limit.  On average you have 3 or 4 miles between driveways on these roads. 

At night you can actually see quite well, especially in the winter when there's snow cover.  When we'd go skiing in the ditches of these roads at night we had to do it lights off after the eyes got adjusted.  We'd turn on the parking lights when needed for safety.  Headlights at the front of the pickup are too far ahead of the skier and culverts are a squeak when you stop seeing them shortly before going over them.

One of my most exciting college memories was in the back seat of a nissan Z that had just gone through wrong side of a T intersection at a high rate of speed.  Once we realized nobody was hurt we took off running towards the nearest familiar house so nobody would get in trouble.

Have done the ski thing, and lights out driving on the roads. Also snow mobiles on the roads with a skier behind worked well. On the great snow days had to get out the chains to do the ski thing.

HiTech
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: SmokinLoon on April 16, 2013, 02:17:38 PM
I wonder if this an Iowa thing, because I did the same in in High School in  pickup trucks.

HiTech

Yes it is.  We did it in Storm Lake, too.   :aok   
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Rob52240 on April 16, 2013, 02:19:42 PM
A buddy of mine was from Iowa. He said for kicks they used to see how far down a road they could drive, at night, with the lights off. Apparently it so dark at night out there is corn country, that you couldn't see a thing. Any of you other Iowans do the same? 



July-October corn can block your view of intersecting traffic but the soybean fields and pastures don't. 

In high school I knew a kid with a early 70's F250 who was racing another kid I knew who was in a 80's caprice.   The pickup T boned the car at highway speed and there was a fire.  I've known a handfull of people who have driven into quarries while drunk or chasing deer or chasing deer drunk, I'm even related to one.

This is street view of it.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=50501&hl=en&ll=43.038564,-94.718671&spn=0.024874,0.038581&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Fort+Dodge,+Iowa+50501&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=43.038559,-94.717994&panoid=RQpOkpUOxsc__XqD9FIjsg&cbp=12,217.76,,0,25.33

Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: deadstikmac on April 16, 2013, 02:26:37 PM
bottle rockets and roman candle fights +1

just do not wear a big jacket... the roman candles have been know to catch a jacket on fire...... personal exp.   :x



Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Rob52240 on April 16, 2013, 03:25:33 PM
My favorite was to take a bottle rocket with no stick, light it and set it in someone's hood on their jacket or sweatshirt.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tunnelrat on April 16, 2013, 03:35:18 PM
My favorite was to take a bottle rocket with no stick, light it and set it in someone's hood on their jacket or sweatshirt.

I preferred taking a pack of a dozen, grabbing it tight by the cellophane, ripping all the sticks out and twisting the fuses together.... just light and toss.... good times.

Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Wiley on April 16, 2013, 04:43:34 PM
LOL!  Bored rural kids...

Grew up in the 80s...  Buddy of mine was getting pulled behind a truck on a Saturday night on rollerblades doing about 50mph.  They stopped the truck, buddy starts jumping around and cussing up a storm, clawing at the blades to get them off.  Apparently the RPM rollerblade wheels reach at 50mph generates enough heat to melt the wheels and make them pretty uncomfortable on the bottoms of your feet. :D

How some of us survived remains a mystery to me...

Wiley.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: 1Cane on April 16, 2013, 04:44:41 PM
I love the Lancs ,53 kills 3 deaths. Set up for a belly attack and let the 20mm do its magic!
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: FLOOB on April 16, 2013, 06:09:29 PM
over powering just a 2 second burst from them at a fighters wingroot will shred the wing right off
Two seconds is a long time, that's about one hundred rounds. If you're flying a formation then it's three hundred rounds.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tuton25 on April 16, 2013, 11:15:47 PM
When comparing the hurri to the lanc you gotta remember the guns are centralized like on the 38, which means more rounds are hitting the target...

A story from rural wisconsin:

A buddy and I had a little kid trainer bow (less than 20lbs draw) and were shooting it the air and watching it fall.....
Then we thought it would be even more fun to get his dads deer bow (75lbs draw) and shoot it straight up and watch it fall......
we found the arrow the next day in the neighbors roof about 300 yards away......
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: danny76 on April 17, 2013, 02:36:38 AM
And yet when I suggestes that they were underpowered in  a spit 1 a couple of months ago, qquoting the weight of rounds striking per second I was told I knew nothing about firearms and that .303's were inneffective rounds over 200 yards :old: :bhead
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Randy1 on April 17, 2013, 06:58:02 AM
I ran into the lasers last night for the first time.  Up until the change I would have much preferred taking on a Lanc of a B17 but now they are both big hitters.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Gixer on April 17, 2013, 07:26:15 AM
Ever since the 3 buff formation and lazer gun covergence, I just can't be bothered with Buffs even if I start from a good position, just not worth the effort or energy to take them on. And that's even when I was spending most of my time in the Yak T.

Always thought the pin point gun covergency and range is ridiculous, add to that being able to fire from external view.. etc etc .     :rolleyes:

Unless the Buffs are going for something important like a CV I usually just let them pass by.



<S>...-Gixer
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tunnelrat on April 17, 2013, 08:57:18 AM
It's amazing the number of buffers who can't gun to save their lives though... it seems like 50% you run into are amazing, and 50% are just terrible.

High slashing attacks still work well, but it gets a lot tougher at altitude.

Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on April 17, 2013, 11:24:49 AM

A bomber gunner is able to engage and track a target in a way that a fighter pilot can't and can adjust for projectile drop and deflection while hosing the target down. There has been a lot of discussion about the effective range of .50s and .303s in regard to buffs and the prevailing wisdom is that a stable platform combined with unconverged buff guns results in the "laser" effect so many complain of.

Except that historically speaking bombers were never death spewing monsters, they were dead meat in the hands of fighters if they had no escort to protect them.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Wiley on April 17, 2013, 11:32:28 AM
Except that historically speaking bombers were never death spewing monsters, they were dead meat in the hands of fighters if they had no escort to protect them.

Actually I don't know the answer to this, but most fighters didn't creep up the six of buffs in the war, did they?  They made fast attacks from on high at an angle, which makes them a harder target than 90% of the people who attack buffs in the MA.

Seems to me they'd have had a lot more trouble with buffs if they'd engaged them like people do in the MA.

Wiley.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Lusche on April 17, 2013, 11:34:40 AM
they were dead meat in the hands of fighters if they had no escort to protect them.

And the vast majority of buffs in AH are just that.


Unfortunately many fighters insist on slowly creeping up a buffs low 6 with only a minor speed difference  :lol
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Karnak on April 17, 2013, 12:22:17 PM
Bombers, even 999000, = free kills in AH, other than fast, high bombers.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 17, 2013, 01:12:29 PM
My favorite was to take a bottle rocket with no stick, light it and set it in someone's hood on their jacket or sweatshirt.

In college we used to break off the stick and light the bottle rocket under the door of someone's room and then sit back and laugh at the screams of terror.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 17, 2013, 01:14:03 PM
I ran into the lasers last night for the first time.  Up until the change I would have much preferred taking on a Lanc of a B17 but now they are both big hitters.

If you're getting hit by the tail guns, you're doing something very wrong when attackin bombers.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Arlo on April 17, 2013, 01:14:33 PM
In college we used to break off the stick and light the bottle rocket under the door of someone's room and then sit back and laugh at the screams of terror.

ack-ack

In my room .... aka snoring.  ;)
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: SmokinLoon on April 17, 2013, 02:41:58 PM
In college we used to break off the stick and light the bottle rocket under the door of someone's room and then sit back and laugh at the screams of terror.

ack-ack

Ya know.... I watched that exact thing happen in a dorm at Northwestern College in Orange City, IA, in the spring of 1994.  We Morningside football players were there for a basketball game and went up to a dorm for a "party" of sorts after the game was over (small college teams get along at least in Iowa, we played for the fun not the TV glory).  One of the Northwestern football players said "watch this" and shoved a bottle rocket under the door of some Japanese student's door.  They came running out madder than Hell, but didn't know what to do when they saw these hulks standing in the hallway laughing hysterically.   :lol  I felt sorry for them because they were mad as can be but could do nothing about it. 
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tunnelrat on April 17, 2013, 02:47:54 PM
If you're getting hit by the tail guns, you're doing something very wrong when attackin bombers.

ack-ack

High Lancs have a pretty good chance at getting a shot at you from the tail unless you are spot-on in a good high-alt fighter.  That thing has some serious angles.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: mthrockmor on April 17, 2013, 02:58:46 PM
12x.303 multiplied by three buffs makes 36x.303 on the sweet spot.That's a fair amount of lead on target.

Boo
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: danny76 on April 17, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
12x.303 multiplied by three buffs makes 36x.303 on the sweet spot.That's a fair amount of lead on target.

Boo

36 x .303? How do you reach that figure? Even being hit by resr turrets and top guns I can only count half that.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on April 17, 2013, 03:30:59 PM
yea maths a bit off.


4+4+4 = 12

If its a high angle and the top turrets are firing as well its still 18 .303's. That is a LOT of firepower coming down on any target.



Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: danny76 on April 17, 2013, 03:57:26 PM
yea maths a bit off.


4+4+4 = 12

If its a high angle and the top turrets are firing as well its still 18 .303's. That is a LOT of firepower coming down on any target.





I know. my point was that a 12 gun Hurri does not seem to do anything like the damage at 400 yards as the 12 turret guns do at 800
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 17, 2013, 04:17:29 PM
High Lancs have a pretty good chance at getting a shot at you from the tail unless you are spot-on in a good high-alt fighter.  That thing has some serious angles.


Again, this time I'll type it slower for you to understand.  If...you...get...hit...by...t ail...guns...while...attackin g...a...bomber...you're...doing...something...wron g.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tunnelrat on April 17, 2013, 04:20:08 PM
Again, this time I'll type it slower for you to understand.  If...you...get...hit...by...t ail...guns...while...attackin g...a...bomber...you're...doing...something...wron g.

ack-ack

Always have to resort to being a sweetheart, don't you?

Come at my Lancs at 30k in your pick-and-run 38 you so love, and I promise you'll either go home or eat some tail gun lead, stud.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Lusche on April 17, 2013, 04:21:10 PM
Come at my Lancs at 30k in your pick-and-run 38 you so love, and I promise you'll either go home or eat some tail gun lead, stud.


Your Lancs at 30k? :)
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tunnelrat on April 17, 2013, 04:26:22 PM

Your Lancs at 30k? :)

:P

At service ceiling

BOOM.

Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: coombz on April 17, 2013, 04:29:52 PM
Except that historically speaking bombers were never death spewing monsters, they were dead meat in the hands of fighters if they had no escort to protect them.

So basically, exactly the same as in AH then?

I find bombers to be pretty much free kills if I find myself at co-alt or above them.

And I'm really not very good.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Lusche on April 17, 2013, 04:30:46 PM
The practical service ceiling of the Lancs is well below 30k, easy to get in front and above of it in a P-38 :)
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Lusche on April 17, 2013, 04:34:38 PM
I find bombers to be pretty much free kills if I find myself at co-alt or above them.

And I'm really not very good.


I have a K/D of well above 1.0 in most bombers in AH, most above 2.0 even.

And that's ONLY because the majority of players invariably attacks from 6 o clock. They spend 10 minutes or more to climb up to me, and then can't spend another 5 minutes for a proper setup.
Once I see someone passing by and climbing above me outside my gun range, I know I'm screwed. And 8 out of 10 times I actually am.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: tunnelrat on April 17, 2013, 04:39:33 PM
The practical service ceiling of the Lancs is well below 30k, easy to get in front and above of it in a P-38 :)

I'm not saying it isn't, what is difficult at that altitude is making each pass without ever getting into the range of the entire rear hemisphere of the aircraft.

Not saying it can't be done, but even well executed attacks pass through that hemisphere... trick being to limit that exposure as much as possible.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Rino on April 17, 2013, 04:48:50 PM
Bombers scare me more than any fighter.

     Remind you of your ex-wife?  <g,d,rlh>
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: pembquist on April 17, 2013, 05:24:06 PM

I have a K/D of well above 1.0 in most bombers in AH, most above 2.0 even.

And that's ONLY because the majority of players invariably attacks from 6 o clock. They spend 10 minutes or more to climb up to me, and then can't spend another 5 minutes for a proper setup.
Once I see someone passing by and climbing above me outside my gun range, I know I'm screwed. And 8 out of 10 times I actually am.


My problem is when I try slashing attacks I can't hit anything unless I collide, the bombers are always below the nose and most of the time I'm firing blind unless I wait till I'm colliding.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Lusche on April 17, 2013, 05:33:58 PM


My problem is when I try slashing attacks I can't hit anything unless I collide, the bombers are always below the nose and most of the time I'm firing blind unless I wait till I'm colliding.

Yes it's certainly more difficult and needs some practice.
But easily overlooked is the fact that it's even more difficult for the bomber gunner to track (and hit) the fighter. He is easily disoriented and has to track rapidly changing angles and a high closure speed.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Karnak on April 17, 2013, 06:09:13 PM
And a couple hits from the top or nose turret of a Lancaster are unlikely to inflict significant damage.  Even .50s usually need multiple hits to do anything.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 17, 2013, 08:50:09 PM
Always have to resort to being a sweetheart, don't you?

Come at my Lancs at 30k in your pick-and-run 38 you so love, and I promise you'll either go home or eat some tail gun lead, stud.


It's not my fault that you like the skill to use the proper tactics in engaging a bomber.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Rob52240 on April 17, 2013, 09:03:59 PM
Is the deeper question here whether or not Lancasters merit weaker tactics when attacking because they're a lot less deadly than the 4 engine light load bombers?  Do any others feel as though planes like a stuka or 110 almost deserve to be attacked tail on?
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: MK-84 on April 17, 2013, 09:07:00 PM
Is the deeper question here whether or not Lancasters merit weaker tactics when attacking because they're a lot less deadly than the 4 engine light load bombers?  Do any others feel as though planes like a stuka or 110 almost deserve to be attacked tail on?

4 .303s are less deadly then the 2 .50 option.  The .303 option has vastly more ammunition however.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Vinkman on April 17, 2013, 10:25:28 PM

I have a K/D of well above 1.0 in most bombers in AH, most above 2.0 even.

And that's ONLY because the majority of players invariably attacks from 6 o clock. They spend 10 minutes or more to climb up to me, and then can't spend another 5 minutes for a proper setup.
Once I see someone passing by and climbing above me outside my gun range, I know I'm screwed. And 8 out of 10 times I actually am.

Unless it's me, because I miss on teh first three passes.  :(
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: SmokinLoon on April 17, 2013, 10:51:24 PM
4 .303s are less deadly then the 2 .50 option.  The .303 option has vastly more ammunition however.

"less deadly" is not really the term I'd use.  While round for round the .50 does have more oomph that a .30, the faster rate of fire and the 2500 rounds per .30 cal gun (as opposed to 335 round per .50 cal), it is about a wash.  The bigger issue will be the aircraft that have more armor in the nose and the thicker glass in the front canopy.  One thing I know for sure is that since the new Lancs have come out, I've done a far better job at shooting down enemy fighters with the quad .30's than I eve did with the dual .50's. 

I'll take the quad .30's every time.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Lusche on April 18, 2013, 09:14:34 AM
Just had witnessed another fine example of typical MA bomebr hunting. Two guys were intercepting a strat raider and there was plenty of time left before he would reach their target.
Turned out to be a set of Lancs cruising at 18k and 277mph. Both interceptors were flying late war fighters and had enough alt and speed to get into any desired position. One was actually slightly above and ahead of the Lancs when they met.

And where did they end up attacking from?

(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/beam2_zps9380bb69.jpg)


... riding down the beam  :)
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Triton28 on April 18, 2013, 09:26:37 AM
Lanc Death Ray..  :rofl

Maybe it's my lower graphics settings, but they don't look anywhere near realistic to me.  Just a yellow line shooting out the back.   :uhoh

I have to agree with what some have said.  Making a proper bomber pass, bombers are meat, Lanc Death Ray or not.  When I get shot down by one it's usually either exceptional and somewhat lucky marksmanship or I was an impatient dummy.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Wiley on April 18, 2013, 09:32:52 AM
Lanc Death Ray..  :rofl

Maybe it's my lower graphics settings, but they don't look anywhere near realistic to me.  Just a yellow line shooting out the back.   :uhoh

I have to agree with what some have said.  Making a proper bomber pass, bombers are meat, Lanc Death Ray or not.  When I get shot down by one it's usually either exceptional and somewhat lucky marksmanship or I was an impatient dummy.

Impatience is the killer 90 percent of the time when I die to buffs.

Wiley.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: shotgunneeley on April 18, 2013, 11:30:31 AM
To be honest I hate enemy fighters coming down dead 6 worse than ones who will set up the attack properly. Dead 6ers, particularly cannon birds, can put more heavier rounds on me from further out than the convergence of drone guns. Oh yes, I'll chew them up and the fight will be over in a couple seconds, but I usually end up loosing at least one drone. Wish I had the film, but one time I had a ta-152 dead 6 my b-17s and kill 2 drones with a couple hits each while I was steadily nailing him from 1k and then with all guns at D500.

I like having more ammo instead of the heavier hitting 50s. Tactics wont change in attacking lancs, I'll still dive down below and zoom up from underneath. What I have noticed is that the tail sight is a bit lower than the center of the screen. Switch back and forth between guns and you can see the difference.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Noir on April 18, 2013, 12:19:11 PM
the number of tracers on that screenshot is disturbing  :O
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Karnak on April 18, 2013, 04:20:12 PM
Always thought the pin point gun covergency and range is ridiculous, add to that being able to fire from external view.. etc etc .     :rolleyes:
What "pin point convergence"?  By no definition do bomber guns have pin point convergence.  The guns from a single bomber fire parallel to each other and the guns from the formation converge at the fixed distance of 500 or 600 yards, I don't recall which.  There is no pin point convergence.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Lusche on April 18, 2013, 04:21:08 PM
(...) and the guns from the formation converge at the fixed distance of 500 or 600 yards, I don't recall which.

500.  :)
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Wiley on April 18, 2013, 04:37:20 PM
What "pin point convergence"?  By no definition do bomber guns have pin point convergence.  The guns from a single bomber fire parallel to each other and the guns from the formation converge at the fixed distance of 500 or 600 yards, I don't recall which.  There is no pin point convergence.

You've got to admit though, between 400 and 600 yards is NOT where you want to spend much time.  If they hit you in that range, parts disappear mightily quick.  It's not 'pinpoint', but people can argue that it's better than what actually happened IRL.

Wiley.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Karnak on April 18, 2013, 05:12:03 PM
You've got to admit though, between 400 and 600 yards is NOT where you want to spend much time.  If they hit you in that range, parts disappear mightily quick.  It's not 'pinpoint', but people can argue that it's better than what actually happened IRL.

Wiley.
Yes, between 400 and 600 is bad.  Still, the drone's guns are pretty useless at 1000 yards.

Many players still think that bomber guns auto converge on the targeted fighter, as in a bit above and behind the Lancs at 850 yards you would have eighteen .303s all converging to the same point if the fighter were at 850 yards, and that the convergence adjusts with the rage of the fighter.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Noir on April 19, 2013, 02:14:09 AM
the convergence adjusts with the rage of the fighter.

 :D
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Rob52240 on April 19, 2013, 02:23:51 AM
Yes, between 400 and 600 is bad.  Still, the drone's guns are pretty useless at 1000 yards.

Many players still think that bomber guns auto converge on the targeted fighter, as in a bit above and behind the Lancs at 850 yards you would have eighteen .303s all converging to the same point if the fighter were at 850 yards, and that the convergence adjusts with the rage of the fighter.

It would be nice if we had a 3rd gun fire option on bombers.  So that only dorsal, ball, tail and nose turrets linked on the gunner's plane.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Vinkman on April 19, 2013, 08:53:13 AM
Is it me or have the new lancs been released with a new scheme for animating the tracers?

I've never liked the rainstorm looking graphics of the tracers when attacking a buff. I see the new lanc actually the show the tracers in a realistic way, eminating from a their actual origin etc...

I think it's a huge improvement. anyone else notice this?
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: danny76 on April 19, 2013, 09:12:16 AM
Looks dreadful IMHO
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Slate on April 19, 2013, 09:52:47 AM
  I don't like the look of the new tracer fire. They need to fix that. It looks like every round is a tracer.

  As far as gunning I have to get used to the new guns in the lanc as I'm missing more shots from the tail gun than before. I do like the new ammo load though.  :aok
  Took out 2 of three fighters that engaged me at the strats yesterday though the third finished me off and he was not a good shot in his 190.

  I shouldn't tell you this but most know already that the belly of the lanc is not covered by the guns. if ya can't climb high above to swoop down (the most effective way to kill them) come from below and shoot straight up.
 
 Once I get my aim in the new guns sorted out look out.  :airplane:
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Vinkman on April 19, 2013, 09:55:36 AM
I think it looks like every bullet is a tracer too. PErhaps they could reduce the number. But I do like that they eminate from the actual guns. That a big improvement over the old "Rain Storm" look.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Wmaker on April 19, 2013, 11:59:58 AM
I'm guessing it is a bug. It currently looks like several miniguns going off. There has been bugs like that in defensive guns in the past.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Pyro on April 19, 2013, 12:47:16 PM
It's a display bug.  It'll be fixed in the next patch.  It doesn't have any effect on how they hit.  You're not getting an increased rate of fire.
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Daddkev on April 19, 2013, 12:50:51 PM
 :huh :huh :huh :huh I think it looks awesome!  :salute :salute :rock :rock :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:
Title: Re: Lanc .303's overmodelled?
Post by: Ramon on April 21, 2013, 02:30:32 PM
Lancs are my favorite bomber to take down.  The new 303's seem to have made them a little tougher but not too much.  Get ahead and above and dive down aiming at the wing root thats my favorite attack.  I love to see them becasue once you see them they can't get away, if you want em.  Just stay out of their six.  Its like giving up if you settle in on their six, because it won't be long until you are back in the tower.   :aok