Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Plawranc on May 05, 2013, 01:37:15 AM
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I have developed a new respect for C2 drivers tonight.
You can't see out, your guns bounce off, you can't turn and you stall like a female dog.
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try turn the C2 after flying the Fw190a8, and you think you are in a Ki43.
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try turn the C2 after flying the Fw190a8, and you think you are in a Ki43.
^^^^this haha :rofl
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try turn the C2 after flying the Fw190a8, and you think you are in a Ki43.
Then fly the A8 after you fly the F8. You'll think you are in a hurri. :D
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I have developed a new respect for C2 drivers tonight.
You can't see out, your guns bounce off, you can't turn and you stall like a female dog.
Perhaps, but damn they look good! and in what other plane do you get a leopard skin to pimp your ride?
Looks aside, I dont know what was your experience with it, but I find it a very capable fighter even if it is not at the top of the food chain. It is a 1943 plane after all, and placed in that context it is even more impressive.
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I use to like flying the 205, but now I have a hard time seeing and it just isn't as much fun flying it. :(
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It is pretty good in its time. Particularly the C.202, other than firepower. C.202 is probably the second best 1941 fighter, trailing only the Bf109F-4 and leading such things as the Spitfire Mk V, P-40E, A6M2 and Hurricane Mk II.
The C.205 has stiffer competition in 1943. The Spitfire Mk VIII is flat out superior by a large margin and the Fw190A-5 and Spitfire Mk IX are also hold significant advantages. Even big twin engined fighters such as the P-38J and Mosquito Mk VI are at least parable with the C.205, and arguably superior.
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Only the flaps are inferior to the G6, everything else is more or less the same, but with almost twice the firepower. If you arent forced to turnfight against spits and F4Us, its not half as bad.
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Only the flaps are inferior to the G6, everything else is more or less the same, but with almost twice the firepower. If you arent forced to turnfight against spits and F4Us, its not half as bad.
The 205 is a pig. You can dress it up, you can sing to it, but it's still a pig.
Now the 202, that's a real airplane.
- oldman
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I love the C.205. Looked at one stat at a time, its kind of mediocre. But overall, its actually a decent fighter.
It can turn some in a pinch, it can handle speed reasonably well, decent firepower, and good climb/acceleration. Biggest problem it faces is that its just a tad too slow to be competetive in MW and LW.
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Personally, when I flew it, I found the C205 quite easy and fun to fly...was it 109 or spit easy? Newp.. but still not P47 or P38 hard
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The 205 is a pig. You can dress it up, you can sing to it, but it's still a pig.
Now the 202, that's a real airplane.
- oldman
:aok
Well, i have tryed it, wasnt much worse than the G6 anyway. Still, its ENY 20 (if i can remember), just like the Spit9 and the Ki84... what are we talking about? Weird.
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The 205 is a pig. You can dress it up, you can sing to it, but it's still a pig.
Now the 202, that's a real airplane.
- oldman
this, plus they stuck the trim indicators down at the bottom for those who fly manual trim but cant see that far. They call it a 'dog' for a reason.
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I'm not very good, but I like the 205. Fights well in the verticle and has a large clip. Not sure about bullets bouncing off, but you have a lot. You won't run down a 51 or a g-14, but you can run down some others. It turns decently. A Gucci of Death! It is e very nice perk farmer.
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It has a nice set of attributes when fighting from above. At least in my hands, it's a terrible stallfighter against anything that is even remotely turny. Good for running down some planes, competent at middle speeds and climbs decently. There are just so many better options.
Wiley.
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There are just so many better options.
That is a reason to fly it. I mean what do you need to get a kill?
Feels so much more rewarding getting a kill in a non-perky bird like a C205. I know, that is just me.
C205 very capable plane. :aok
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There are just so many better options.
Imagine every single one flying an La-7. Spit-16. 4-hog. Tempest. M-jug. K-4. Aint too nice, is it?
Wait... thats pretty much how the MA works... :aok
And yea, it felt good to kill them in a lesser plane. Or at least whatch an La-7 run from a 190D.
:bhead
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It has a nice set of attributes when fighting from above. At least in my hands, it's a terrible stallfighter against anything that is even remotely turny. Good for running down some planes, competent at middle speeds and climbs decently. There are just so many better options.
Wiley.
I had no problem flying the C.205 for quite a few tours - and even ranked #1 in fighters flying it, while it won't beat a corsair in a turn fight or a Zero - it does 400mph at 15k and out climbs most planes with a 10 minute wep and a very nasty gun package with a good view. If I wanted a better option I'd just fly the F4u-4 and not fly anything else.
Then again I flew it for the 25 eny which racks up a ton of perks if you need them.
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If you're carefull about energy, and don't make it a pure TnB fight, you can actually turn with quite a lot of aircraft. It can also do a climbing turn defense better than most I feel.
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If you're carefull about energy, and don't make it a pure TnB fight, you can actually turn with quite a lot of aircraft. It can also do a climbing turn defense better than most I feel.
So if you dont turn it, it can turn :aok
Jager, if you dont give up your energy, thats not a turnfight but an energy-fight. And yes, any aircraft is good if you come with E.
Its not a good turnfighter - a K4 can turn inside it. Wouldnt be that bad, but the flaps are ineffective. Still, baba's 4hog had to use his CV ack last time i upped a 205. True, it wasnt the plane, it was him being... not too tricky.
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So if you dont turn it, it can turn :aok
Jager, if you dont give up your energy, thats not a turnfight but an energy-fight. And yes, any aircraft is good if you come with E.
Doh! I forgot you are completely incapable of simply not turning when you're either too slow or too fast. Stupid me :bhead.
Its not a good turnfighter - a K4 can turn inside it. Wouldnt be that bad, but the flaps are ineffective. Still, baba's 4hog had to use his CV ack last time i upped a 205. True, it wasnt the plane, it was him being... not too tricky.
Debrody, I think you're misunderstanding that "turning" isn't the same thing as "turn fighting". You can turn in a fight, and still not be TnB'ing.
All I'm saying is that its not suicidal to try and haul the nose around if you see a shot, and you don't need to climb back up to your perch if a 190D starts to bank to the left.
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So if I'm understanding this discussion, when you folks see "C2" by the icon, you automatically assume it's a 205, and not a 202?
- oldman
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So if I'm understanding this discussion, when you folks see "C2" by the icon, you automatically assume it's a 205, and not a 202?
- oldman
In the MA, every time. Just as every "109" is a K-4, or "spit" is a 16, until proven otherwise.
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So if I'm understanding this discussion, when you folks see "C2" by the icon, you automatically assume it's a 205, and not a 202?
- oldman
C.202 is one of the rarest birds in the game. Its the only one I can't recall seeing at some point in the MA.
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Debrody, I think you're misunderstanding that "turning" isn't the same thing as "turn fighting". You can turn in a fight, and still not be TnB'ing.
All I'm saying is that its not suicidal to try and haul the nose around if you see a shot, and you don't need to climb back up to your perch if a 190D starts to bank to the left.
Its okay, but thats not a turnfight, ergo, actual turn rate means next to nothing in those situation, unless its extremely poor (410, 262).
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K4's are too mainstream.
G-14s for the win.
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Its okay, but thats not a turnfight, ergo, actual turn rate means next to nothing in those situation, unless its extremely poor (410, 262).
Unless it was changed, it wasn't THAT bad. It could turn with a P-51 for a little bit, last I flew it.
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Where did i say that it was 410 level?
It can completely dominate a P51/47/190/Jak9U in a stallfight, and not for a little bit.
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Where did i say that it was 410 level?
It can completely dominate a P51/47/190/Jak9U in a stallfight, and not for a little bit.
"It can outdo a P47 in a stallfight." :lol
Well, that's a glowing recommendation right there. ;)
I hope my earlier post wasn't seen as a condemnation of it, I was just giving my honest assessment of how it works for me. I fly it too now and again, it's a fun plane to fight in. I was just commenting that it's not the best at anything, nor is it the worst.
Love the long clip on the guns, that's for sure. It's also faster than most give it credit for if they don't know any better.
Wiley.
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Dont laugh on my P47 comment, thats a surprisingly nimble fighter. Great flaps, low stall speed, steady in the post-stall.
Lepape. LilMak. Alfamega. Anything else i should say?
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Dont laugh on my P47 comment, thats a surprisingly nimble fighter. Great flaps, low stall speed, steady in the post-stall.
Lepape. LilMak. Alfamega. Anything else i should say?
Amount of time it took them to get proficient in it versus what they could do in a spixteen? ;)
I fly the jug a fair bit, but I'm just another dweeb. I know it's better than most give it credit for, but very few are adept in it turnfighting. It just struck me as funny.
Wiley.
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Where did i say that it was 410 level?
It can completely dominate a P51/47/190/Jak9U in a stallfight, and not for a little bit.
A P-51 will give some competition to a 109K in a stall fight, but the C2 can 'completely dominate' the P-51, yet is outdone by the K4?
And the Yak-9U is actually pretty maneuverable, I've always felt.
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Amount of time it took them to get proficient in it versus what they could do in a spixteen? ;)
Give them a spixteen and they make just like anything look funny. Youre absolutely right, but they dont "need" a spixteen to successfully outfly (turn, E, or any combination) the very large majority of the MA, what ever the mob brings to take them down
;)
A P-51 will give some competition to a 109K in a stall fight, but the C2 can 'completely dominate' the P-51, yet is outdone by the K4?
Where is it said that the P51 can compete the 109K in a stallfight? It cant. The C205 is somewhere between them.
Youre bringing up some silly stuff again.
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who is this guy and why does he keep pretending he knows what he is talking about?
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Where is it said that the P51 can compete the 109K in a stallfight? It cant. The C205 is somewhere between them.
Youre bringing up some silly stuff again.
The P-51 seems to have more effective flaps. Especially at any speed above 195mph since it can actually use them above that speed.
Unless you're talking about just flat turning on the edge of a stall, no verticle component what so ever, the P-51's flaps can come into play. At the bottom of a swoop, when airspeed will be at a relative maximum, the K4 might have flaps raise entirely, and will likely have them open only a notch at most. IIRC, the P-51 can typically have two or three notches down in the same situation.
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who is this guy and why does he keep pretending he knows what he is talking about?
Captain Wikipedia
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Amount of time it took them to get proficient in it versus what they could do in a spixteen? ;)
I fly the jug a fair bit, but I'm just another dweeb. I know it's better than most give it credit for, but very few are adept in it turnfighting. It just struck me as funny.
Wiley.
I faught a few people in the D-11, Nomde and few others challenged me to learn it along time ago - I had a ditch with a 190A5 and 109k and won - however I really never picked up on the jug, one thing I just hated teh climb out time, howver once its light it does some wonders below 15k, above 15k it dont matter.
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The P-51 seems to have more effective flaps. Especially at any speed above 195mph since it can actually use them above that speed.
Unless you're talking about just flat turning on the edge of a stall, no verticle component what so ever, the P-51's flaps can come into play. At the bottom of a swoop, when airspeed will be at a relative maximum, the K4 might have flaps raise entirely, and will likely have them open only a notch at most. IIRC, the P-51 can typically have two or three notches down in the same situation.
If both planes are just above corner speed and the 51 can use flaps but the 109 cant,which plane can turn better??
:salute
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If both planes are just above corner speed and the 51 can use flaps but the 109 cant,which plane can turn better??
:salute
Oh i see what you have just asked there ;)
Jager, your statements dont make any sense. If you have experienced the problems you have listed, you are doing something seriously wrong.
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The P-51 seems to have more effective flaps. Especially at any speed above 195mph since it can actually use them above that speed.
Unless you're talking about just flat turning on the edge of a stall, no verticle component what so ever, the P-51's flaps can come into play. At the bottom of a swoop, when airspeed will be at a relative maximum, the K4 might have flaps raise entirely, and will likely have them open only a notch at most. IIRC, the P-51 can typically have two or three notches down in the same situation.
You give way too much credit to what flaps do. If a pony needs to deploy to the 3rd or more flap position it better get the kill shot in the next 3 seconds or die 3 seconds after that - especially against a K4.
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You give way too much credit to what flaps do. If a pony needs to deploy to the 3rd or more flap position it better get the kill shot in the next 3 seconds or die 3 seconds after that - especially against a K4.
I agree with this, one notch of flaps for a few seconds and if the Pony doesnt raise them he is burning off to much energy to deal with a K4. I use the flaps strictly to get a Lag shot behind and zoom away instantly, same goes for a P47 if I am under 15k.
C205 doesn't out turn a Pony in a flat turn, Nor does either play with a K4 - but three different planes, its Apples to oranges. The K4 doesn't get sluggish when it gets slow, the C205 becomes a Barn when it slows down, the C202 however is extremely nimble when its slow.
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You give way too much credit to what flaps do. If a pony needs to deploy to the 3rd or more flap position it better get the kill shot in the next 3 seconds or die 3 seconds after that - especially against a K4.
Yep. Bozon nailed it head on.
ack-ack
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While I am no great pilot I do know that any ME109 has better acceleration from a low speed than the P-51 except maybe the E models. The K-4 has the option to extend against a P-51 and come back with E at will. As for the C-202 or C-205s I found if I am trying to use flaps on them I am getting killed and I have had better luck it the C-2s with no flaps but that is just me.
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Must be an extremely poor 109 pilot who has to run from a pony ;)
I would phrase otherwise, the K4 has the power to (slowly though, but) catch the runstangs.
:old:
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Oh i see what you have just asked there ;)
Jager, your statements dont make any sense. If you have experienced the problems you have listed, you are doing something seriously wrong.
:rofl
I was hoping no one would answer that knows the answer,I want to see what our resident expert has to say about that question.
As a trainer I'm constantly having to explain to players about this,seems to be a lot of misinformation being given to players and it doesn't help them or the game one bit.
:salute
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I think that the C.202 does outturn a P-51. It's not quite as good as a Spit 16, though.
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If both planes are just above corner speed and the 51 can use flaps but the 109 cant,which plane can turn better??
:salute
Nothing, cause of the G-limit. But isn't corner speed around 215 for the K4? Granted it's a small margin, but I've always wanted those flaps when flying the Kurfürst.
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:rofl
I was hoping no one would answer that knows the answer,I want to see what our resident expert has to say about that question.
As a trainer I'm constantly having to explain to players about this,seems to be a lot of misinformation being given to players and it doesn't help them or the game one bit.
:salute
What I can't figure out is how the resident expert is so knowledgeable yet no films of him flying or even having a score even worth proving he has any idea whats going on.
Blah Blah score means nothing, but it does give a clue how the person flies and if he has any idea what he is doing, also by the plane he is flying.
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Nothing, cause of the G-limit. But isn't corner speed around 215 for the K4? Granted it's a small margin, but I've always wanted those flaps when flying the Kurfürst.
Well first you'd have to define corner speed but I can tell you 215 is way too low for any of the 109's. Now if you were talking about a brew or zero 215 might be close but not the 109 series and the 51 is close to 260 mph at corner speed but as I said first you'd have to define it.
Really if you don't know,instead of spouting off why not ask questions? there are no stupid questions but there's plenty of dumb answers.
:salute
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Well first you'd have to define corner speed but I can tell you 215 is way too low for any of the 109's. Now if you were talking about a brew or zero 215 might be close but not the 109 series and the 51 is close to 260 mph at corner speed but as I said first you'd have to define it.
Really if you don't know,instead of spouting off why not ask questions? there are no stupid questions but there's plenty of dumb answers.
:salute
Corner speed being the minimum speed at which you can pull the 6G's to black out, no? That's always what I've heard. If I'm misusing the term, plate let me know.
Fairly certain I've gotten the blackness creeping in at around 200. Could be wrong though.
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A programmer from another of Hitech's games came up with this info in 1997. For AH purposes it's dated but, closer than Tank-Aces guessing "Corner Velocity" instead of looking for something on the Internet.
BF 109-K4
-CornerVelocity: 275mph
-CornerRadius: 551ft
-Sust.NoFlapSpeed: 170mph
-Sust.NoFlapsRadius: 817ft
-360degreeNoFlaps: 20.6sec
-Sust.FullFlapsSpeed: 140mph
-Sust.FullFlapsRadius: 657ft
-360degreeFullFlaps: 20.1sec
P51D
-CornerVelocity: 270mph
-CornerRadius: 531ft
-Sust.NoFlapSpeed: 165mph
-Sust.NoFlapsRadius: 789ft
-360degreeNoFlaps: 20.5sec
-Sust.FullFlapsSpeed: 145mph
-Sust.FullFlapsRadius: 731ft
-360degreeFullFlaps: 21.6sec
Source: http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/corner.htm
Gonzo's page seems to have java exploit popup at the moment.
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Thats weird. Ok, that info is 16 years old, probably have changed, still:
the 109 could turn around in an r=551 feet circle while doing 275mph and pulling 6G, but with full flaps and 140mph, the turn radius is larger than this? This sounds odd.
Got to calculate this later.
centripetal acceleration = speed on the square / radius ==> r=v2/a /for the 6g, 60m/s2, 275mph
also
radius = corner speed * time for a full circle / 2*pi /for the 140mph corner speed and 19,2s circling time
if im not mistaken
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Power Loading, maybe?
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A simple way to calculate corner speed ingame is to find the clean stall speed of the A/C in question and multiply that by 2.44.
275mph seems abit high for the 109,even the K4,I've found they stall pretty close to 100 with the E and F stalling just under 100mph so that would give you a corner speed close to 245 mph. The 51 wants to stall closer to 110 maybe slightly above which would be very close to the 270 mark,IIRC in testing I got around 265.
If you use Badboys EM bootstrap it's very easy to find the answers.
Incase anyone is wondering how you come up with the 2.44 figure,it's the square root of 6,6 being the G limit at blackout.
:salute
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Is corner velocity air density influenced?
Wonder if Hitech has a publishable list for all fighters based on alt\air density.
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Is corner velocity air density influenced?
Wonder if Hitech has a publishable list for all fighters based on alt\air density.
Probably, considering that stall speed increases as air density decreases, and that both stall and corner velocty are lift-related...