Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: nrshida on June 10, 2013, 03:26:34 AM
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Please do something about the Ki-84's most absurd feature.
If the random detaching of control surfaces at high speed are supposed to model poor manufacture, then at least make the ailerons and elevators detach one at a time. You can hardly imply that Nakajima's quality control was bad enough to cause the pivot points to unwittingly fail completely and yet imply that unconnected sets fail at exactly the same threshold causing pairs to detach together.
I can find nothing in the literature to indicate this was a problem with the real aircraft and have a test report which already shows a Hayate going faster than our fail speed with no problem.
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Easy fix: Grab yourself a 109..
I mean it's german, and
(http://pictures.deadlycomputer.com/d/33746-2/shamwow.jpg)
I don't know if you guys have that advert over there, but the Americans will probably get the reference at least :P
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I hate to be the small boy explaining about the Emperor's new clothes, but that opinion is in face more due to modern marketing and manufacturing techniques (which are basically international). German engineering was / is also imperfect, especially in that period.
I don't mind if poor manufacture is modelled, but let's have it modelled equally across the board...
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my 190a8, at speed, I pull back and snap BOTH my wing tips, every time, and its made with metal wings!
I mean we get the stall and flip over to the left if we pull back at slow to medium speeds but the wings still break at high speed?
Metal > Fabric!!! Is 190a8's extra weight for nothing or what?!?! Or do they have swimming pools in the back of the plane?
And yeah my 109 wings break too!
Seems 190s have the weight but not the gain from it!
Kurt Tank "built light and strong, keeping stuff simple and accessible for maintenance." <-- said an English Documentary guy.
German engineering was imperfect?
So you're one of those guys that say that the phrase 'German Engineering' is because they invented the icecream scooper thing?
Spitty are supposed to have delicate wings, some say shoot the wings, but they don't break at high speed? German stuff doesn't have the 'luv' its the allied guys that do me thinks!
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I don't know if you guys have that advert over there, but the Americans will probably get the reference at least :P
Your going to love my nuts! :lol
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my 190a8, at speed, I pull back and snap BOTH my wing tips, every time, and its made with metal wings!
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And yeah my 109 wings break too!
Perhaps you should consider your transitions or investigate stick scaling. I've never broken a wing off anything.
German engineering was imperfect?
Demonstrably.
So you're one of those guys that say that the phrase 'German Engineering' is because they invented the icecream scooper thing?
No I'm one of those guys who has studied the topic extensively. Why don't you read about the foundation of the Bauhaus and just skip through the decades afterwards quickly.
Just for fun, who's quote is this: "After the war is over I'm going to buy a British radio set - then at least I'll own something that has always worked"?
Anyway, back on topic, AH Hayate control surface modelling...
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Can we get a few players to do the tests please?
Training arena, 30k field, put plane in dive, get to 'very fast' or some speed, 500mph? and pull back hard!
Half the planes will break, half wont! and its repeatable!
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The planes have different structural limits & I believe that is modelled on data.
Franz repeat your experiment with both harsh stick inputs and then progressive transitions. That would be interesting for you.
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That seems to be the problem there isn't a wide range of knowledge on the ki84 personally I think its deeply overmodelled, relative to the rest of the plane set.
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That seems to be the problem there isn't a wide range of knowledge on the ki84 personally I think its deeply overmodelled, relative to the rest of the plane set.
Sorry to differ with you Perv, but it might be the case that it is actually undermodelled if you study the literature. I think we have a conglomeration of models, or a performance which half-reflects manufacturing issues.
If the manufacturing issues are a factor I'd like to know why they aren't depicted in other aircraft too.
The control surface random detachment seems like a good place to start.
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Spitty are supposed to have delicate wings, some say shoot the wings, but they don't break at high speed?
They most certainly do. You must never fly anything that isn't German, not even to test it. The Spitfire Mk XIV folds both entire wings extremely easily. The other Spits don't fold quite as easily, but they still do. It is almost like the Spit XIV doesn't have its stronger wing modeled.
As to the metal wings quip, other than the Mossies what in AH doesn't have metal wings?
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Sorry to differ with you Perv, but it might be the case that it is actually undermodelled if you study the literature. I think we have a conglomeration of models, or a performance which half-reflects manufacturing issues.
If the manufacturing issues are a factor I'd like to know why they aren't depicted in other aircraft too.
The control surface random detachment seems like a good place to start.
I was gonna say almost the exact same thing..... :aok
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my 190a8, at speed, I pull back and snap BOTH my wing tips, every time, and its made with metal wings!
I mean we get the stall and flip over to the left if we pull back at slow to medium speeds but the wings still break at high speed?
Metal > Fabric!!! Is 190a8's extra weight for nothing or what?!?! Or do they have swimming pools in the back of the plane?
And yeah my 109 wings break too!
Seems 190s have the weight but not the gain from it!
Kurt Tank "built light and strong, keeping stuff simple and accessible for maintenance." <-- said an English Documentary guy.
German engineering was imperfect?
So you're one of those guys that say that the phrase 'German Engineering' is because they invented the icecream scooper thing?
Spitty are supposed to have delicate wings, some say shoot the wings, but they don't break at high speed? German stuff doesn't have the 'luv' its the allied guys that do me thinks!
lmao...too funny i can't even think of what to say that would be understood. there are several cartoon world and real world reasons you don't put the types of aircraft modelled in aces high into steep aoa 500+mph dives and haul back on the stick...i don't suppose the concepts of structural stress, acoustic fatigue and gravitational force came to mind.
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G-Force is a constant - if you pull huge G's coming out of a dive, you can make the wings fold up on pretty much anything. The only question becomes whether the monkey at the controls is still conscious when it happens.
I fly the Ki-84 a lot, so I know of the shed control surfaces feature. The times I have shed my control surfaces, yes - I have been pushing the speed envelope a bit hard. I think the problem really is that without a force-feedback on my joystick I have no way to feel when the "flutter" starts. Maybe a good solution would be to have HTC enable the "stress metal" sound when you get near to the rip speed of any aircraft - then it becomes up to the pilot to ease off a bit.
I have not seen any actual test data that shows this as a "feature" of the Ki-84 either.
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Sorry to differ with you Perv, but it might be the case that it is actually undermodelled if you study the literature. I think we have a conglomeration of models, or a performance which half-reflects manufacturing issues.
Do keep in mind that most of the test data IIRC comes from post-war testing of captured birds using 100 octane US AvGas. Which the Ki-84 never used. So yeah, of COURSE there's going to be a massive performance difference.
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Do keep in mind that most of the test data IIRC comes from post-war testing of captured birds using 100 octane US AvGas. Which the Ki-84 never used. So yeah, of COURSE there's going to be a massive performance difference.
Saxman no offence, but I have studied the Hayate extensively. I can give you the Nakajima serial numbers of the two they tested in the Phillipines including which engines they used if you like. I know what power each engine made and on which petrol.
I am not presently campaigning for more power. I am asking for verification that randomly popping off sets of control surfaces is meant to depict poor manufacture and if it is, I suggest they should not pop off in pairs.
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I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, lost a control surface on a KI-84 to anything but gunfire. Could somebody please explain to me what it takes to do such a thing? :huh
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I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, lost a control surface on a KI-84 to anything but gunfire. Could somebody please explain to me what it takes to do such a thing? :huh
Exceed 450mph.
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Exceed 450mph.
At which point the KI is so horribly compressed that you will be very lucky to do anything but nosedive into the ground. Explains why it has never happened to me. :bolt:
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At which point the KI is so horribly compressed that you will be very lucky to do anything but nosedive into the ground. Explains why it has never happened to me. :bolt:
Turn off combat trim.
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Exceed 450mph.
need to get it up over 500....right around 505 pieces start to shed off :aok
At which point the KI is so horribly compressed that you will be very lucky to do anything but nosedive into the ground. Explains why it has never happened to me. :bolt:
its easy to pull out of a dive at 450....or any speed in the KI...just gotta be gentle
but pieces do NOT come off until you are over 500 :aok
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The ki84 reminds me of my f1 vs dr1 experiences in the ww1 arena, even flown extremely badly it suffers no real energy loss when its time to go vert in addition to that I would realistically need 3 passes at a ki before I down it, much like say an f4f.
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For me they come off totally by 480 regardless.
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For me they come off totally by 480 regardless.
:headscratch:
strange...I have never had pieces come off till 500....maybe you pulled back a bit to hard?
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Easy fix: Grab yourself a 109..
I mean it's german, and
(http://pictures.deadlycomputer.com/d/33746-2/shamwow.jpg)
I don't know if you guys have that advert over there, but the Americans will probably get the reference at least :P
I don't get the reference but the pic is :lol
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IN ENGLISH: for gyrene81 since he doesn't seem to understand!
go to training arena, 30k alt 'field' - dive all the planes, TEST...
I did the quick test version with most of the fighter planes, pulled back hard and some planes broke, some not, sometimes compression so it wouldn't but could still do it at speed.
YES there are planes that I COULDNT BREAK THE WINGS... mmmk? <-- English
I'd say 60% did break, and 40% didn't break, this is from probably two years ago tested.
SO UHH, SKIP THE SUPER DUPER SCIENCE!!!
Yes, planes are built differently, but none are from 'reverse engineered UFO super secret technology apparatus'
This said, maybe some planes historically didn't break?
THE IDEA IS THIS... you are at HIGH alt. You have a BOGIE on your SIX.
If you know that your plane can do the pull out thing, and his cant, you MIGHT have the option to... snap his wings!
Not only save your bacon, but also to get a kill without firing a shot!
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Earlier you claimed Spitfire wings didn't break. That is manifestly false. Either your test wasn't very good or you didn't do the test you said you did or you lied about Spitfire wings not breaking in AH.
There is no issue with some planes breaking and some not breaking, but if they break when they shouldn't per data, then they ought to be changed. Doesn't matter if it is an Fw190 or a Spitfire.
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Karnak I put a '?' after... different from a '!'
my spitfire comment was a 'question'... THANK YOU for answering! :)
English for you too! :neener: I'll try to word me questions more'r correctly, sowwy!
Some planes compress and can't pull up?
Others can but break wings?
Yes, some shed parts at speed, pulling back or not! Last I tested, Arado-234 and B29 both BREAKS BOTH ELEVATORS from speed alone!!! <--- No '?' , see Karnak?
While were at it... DIVE A STUKA FROM 14k... all three LANDING GEARS BREAK! <--- stuka transforms to a 'two seater F4u!' Won't happen from 13k, need 14k!!!
Stuka looks neat with gear up, shame they didn't make them this way, a prototype or two aside I think.
Oh, and Ta-152... it can reach a speed that the controls do nothing, even throttle back... 600mph? Plane shaking forever and lawn dart from high alt! (again, was 'quick test' and long ago!)
sooo, to get the achievement of 'landing with no elevators'... up a ki84? or Ar234? B29's also?
Use the Ki-84, other two I know cost too much!
Really Nrshida, I agree that it sux, both at same time, no warning! I'm assuming that HTC did their homework, without bias hopefully!
How else for us to get punished for breaking structurally tested speed limits that were printed in the handbooks?
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here is some engritsch for you Franz...learn the science. just the fact that you think a 190-a8 shouldn't snap the wings off when you haul back on the stick at 500+mph, especially in a high angle dive, tells me you don't know crap. doesn't even matter what altitude you're at, if the airframe hits the critical speed, things start coming off and it gets worse when you apply opposite force with the control surfaces. they're airplanes, not rockets genius.
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The really weird ones from my perspective are the Mosquito Mk VI and Mosquito Mk XVI. They used the same wing, the stronger wing actually being introduced with the Mk VI, and tail, but the Mk VI loses control surfaces to speed and the Mk XVI does not.
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:headscratch:
strange...I have never had pieces come off till 500....maybe you pulled back a bit to hard?
What happens for me Ink is that I can fly up to 450 m.p.h. no problem. Above that I have to be very gentle with my inputs or either the rudder, both elevators or both ailerons pop off and what pops off seems to be a random lottery. At 480 they pop off regardless of being neutral or even trimming out of the dive.
I do not use Combat Trim, I don't know if you do Ink, it's the only significant difference I can think of.
Just as a sidenote the AH Hayate has already stiffened up far before this speed and this is historically accurate.
sooo, to get the achievement of 'landing with no elevators'... up a ki84? or Ar234? B29's also?
Use the Ki-84, other two I know cost too much!
It can be done, no ailerons is easier but it's a bit tedious.
Really Nrshida, I agree that it sux, both at same time, no warning! I'm assuming that HTC did their homework, without bias hopefully!
How else for us to get punished for breaking structurally tested speed limits that were printed in the handbooks?
It's a fair point Franz but happens in AH at a speed that we know the evaluation aircraft exceeded. Since it happens consistently one could argue it is the duty of the pilot to avoid it. I very very seldom do this and usually when chasing an opponent who has dived away. It is a defining feature however and dictates how you fight.
My only concern is that I now believe the AH Hayate is a mongrol of different versions (which is understandable), with certain features intended to pseudo-represent the manufacturing issues especially of the later production models. If that is so it isn't fair to only apply it to this type / nation.
Karnak, what does the literature say about the Mosquito losing surfaces?
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What happens for me Ink is that I can fly up to 450 m.p.h. no problem. Above that I have to be very gentle with my inputs or either the rudder, both elevators or both ailerons pop off and what pops off seems to be a random lottery. At 480 they pop off regardless of being neutral or even trimming out of the dive.
I do not use Combat Trim, I don't know if you do Ink, it's the only significant difference I can think of.
Just as a sidenote the AH Hayate has already stiffened up far before this speed and this is historically accurate.
It can be done, no ailerons is easier but it's a bit tedious.
It's a fair point Franz but happens in AH at a speed that we know the evaluation aircraft exceeded. Since it happens consistently one could argue it is the duty of the pilot to avoid it. I very very seldom do this and usually when chasing an opponent who has dived away. It is a defining feature however and dictates how you fight.
My only concern is that I now believe the AH Hayate is a mongrol of different versions (which is understandable), with certain features intended to pseudo-represent the manufacturing issues especially of the later production models. If that is so it isn't fair to only apply it to this type / nation.
Karnak, what does the literature say about the Mosquito losing surfaces?
I do leave combat trim on.....never made much of a difference to me..... my elevators are what comes off on their own....and not until 504-505....now thats to say they just pop off I dont have to pull back...I am sure they would come off sooner if I yanked the stick back.
It seems combat trim on does keep it together for a bit longer.....
honestly though you know as well as I......if you are going above 450 in the KI you are doing it wrong. :rock
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Interesting, I'll do some more testing.
honestly though you know as well as I......if you are going above 450 in the KI you are doing it wrong. :rock
Yup, you are right.
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I'm not sure if its modeled, but shouldn't parts tearing off have to do with altitude? The air is thinner up there.
Question I ask: does stuff break at same speed at every alt?
Test with Ki-84? The training arena has fields at different alts - some no actual field but just drops us in the air.
Logical stuff: parts should break at lower speeds at lower alts, and at higher speeds at higher alt?
Microsoft Flightsim: take off in Leer Jet, if hold full throttle at say 1000feet, plane will tear its own engines off almost immediately - get to about 300mph(? not sure been awhile) and the overspeed sounds and lights come on? At 45k alt, we can keep throttle at full all day until the fuel runs out if you like... plane reaches mach .9 about? (1.0 is speed of sound.) Fast but thin air so parts don't break. Not sure how fast mach .9 is at 45k, been awhile. (not sure of any of these numbers! no quoting me!)
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I'm not sure if its modeled, but shouldn't parts tearing off have to do with altitude? The air is thinner up there.
nope. air density is a part of the equation (as is speed) but not the primary factor.
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If the KI84 in Aces High was this way in real life Japan would have easily turned the tables on the USA in the war :old:
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Demonstrably.
Only insofar as all human engineering is imperfect since humans are imperfect. Despite what they wanted the world to believe they were not supermen. However, they were building jet fighters in forest clearings from substandard materials using basic hand tools while under the constant threat of air attack, so cut them some slack. ;)
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Going to have to disagree with this Gscholz. It is entirely possible for humans to do human things perfectly because they are insular actions that although derive substance from sensory information around it, can be perfectly expressed given the right time and circumstances.
Don't confuse the divine aspirations with the practical ones, although the two should be linked, they have strayed from eachother's course long ago; under the very same guise (the two being one).
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True. However, the term "German engineering" does not represent an insular action, but the collective actions of a whole nation, and thus perfection is out of the question.
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True. However, the term "German engineering" does not represent an insular action, but the collective actions of a whole nation, and thus perfection is out of the question.
Only given expected time frames.
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I would like to see the ki-84 re-done though,
See lanc, hurri, yaks etc the new models seem to die when hit with a good burst.
Many times i've cut a ki 84 and it has soaked rounds like a sponge.
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Only given expected time frames.
Like a war you mean? ;)
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That's absurd GScholz, I mean without expectations. It was satire.
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Satire? What were you trying to denounce or ridicule with your satire?
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I am denouncing the idea that perfection can be found through force, war and violence. Only peace and submission can give you that. Whatever is created from war is inherently of war and can only lead to the eventual destruction of the user.
PS: GScholz, I know what you are doing and why, and it would not be wise to wear the costume, because ironically, how does it make you any different?
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What? :huh
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Do keep in mind that most of the test data IIRC comes from post-war testing of captured birds using 100 octane US AvGas. Which the Ki-84 never used. So yeah, of COURSE there's going to be a massive performance difference.
Oh yeah, when I put premium gas in my truck it goes twice as fast...
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Oh yeah, when I put premium gas in my truck it goes twice as fast...
You told me you drove a scooter?? :headscratch:
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Oh yeah, when I put premium gas in my truck it goes twice as fast...
You don't boost your engine more when running on higher octane fuel? Then why buy premium if your car is rated for lower quality?
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I would like to see the ki-84 re-done though,
See lanc, hurri, yaks etc the new models seem to die when hit with a good burst.
Many times i've cut a ki 84 and it has soaked rounds like a sponge.
The Ki-84 is an AH v2.00 model. I don't think it has the damage model irregularities the AH v1.xx models sometimes do. It is just a fairly tough fighter.
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The Ki-84 is an AH v2.00 model. I don't think it has the damage model irregularities the AH v1.xx models sometimes do. It is just a fairly tough fighter.
Would you say it is or should be tougher than a jug?
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Would you say it is or should be tougher than a jug?
I don't think it is tougher than a P-47. The P-47 simply gets hit more, and is easier to focus fire on a single area, due to their relative sizes and maneuverabilities.
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Your going to love my nuts! :lol
We're going to make America skinny again, one slap at a time. :aok
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I don't think that planes losing parts at high speeds has anything at all to do with modeling poor workmanship. I think that all planes in AH are modeled as if they were competently built to spec. I think that it has to do with the fact that some planes have a maximum speed beyond which they have problems, such as structural failures or control flutter leading to failure. My guess is that HTC has some information on planes indicating speeds at which they get failure or catastrophic flutter. This is a matter of aerodynamics and structural strength, not just structural strength. For example, control-surface flutter can result in failure even of very strong structures (even on unlimited-class Reno air racers).
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You told me you drove a scooter?? :headscratch:
Only in RL, but that's Internet here, I drive whatever I want :neener:
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You don't boost your engine more when running on higher octane fuel? Then why buy premium if your car is rated for lower quality?
The whole point of testing captured enemy planes is to find how it would or should perform when modified to run with higher boost guzzling our quality avgas and not how it actually perform as manufactured and used by adversary...
Oh the naughty military intelligence... :bhead
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Post-war tests... The enemy was no longer relevant.
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Oh yeah, when I put premium gas in my truck it goes twice as fast...
When we were forced to run 100 LL fuel in our R-1820s, we had to re-index the props and had MAP limitations. This reduced available power, and correspondingly reduced climb and speed (not that we ran at full power very often). Essentially, we were down just over 200 hp. Japanese aircraft were generally limited to fuel with an octane rating of 88 or less. When tested using 115/145 avgas, the full power of the engine was available and there was a significant increase in speed. This was exacerbated by the finish of the aircraft being far better than the typical service aircraft.
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Only insofar as all human engineering is imperfect since humans are imperfect. Despite what they wanted the world to believe they were not supermen. However, they were building jet fighters in forest clearings from substandard materials using basic hand tools while under the constant threat of air attack, so cut them some slack. ;)
I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote.
If you look into the structure of this aircraft you can see how it is a little unusual and should have a good deal more integrity than a Spitfire, say. Anyone who has any actual data which implies the AH Hayate is overmodelled I'm sure HTC would love to see it as much as I.
The loss of sets of surfaces can't be modelling flutter as they detach exactly at the same time. Besides the evaluation aircraft went faster than ours does this, without incident.
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Besides the evaluation aircraft went faster than ours does this, without incident.
were there more than one? was more than one test conducted using the same aircraft with the exact same results?
i ask because i've seen "test data" that showed 109s and 190s that went faster than the ones in ah, but there were a lot of variables throughout the tests and the pilots were not hauling on the sticks like we do in cartoon world...
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Post-war tests... The enemy was no longer relevant.
For the record, early 1945 (January-March), enemy was still very relevant, especially in the Pacific
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Howdy, Nrshida.
If you look into the structure of this aircraft you can see how it is a little unusual and should have a good deal more integrity than a Spitfire, say.
No one can tell at all from looking at the structure. You can't tell by eye if a control surface will experience catastrophic flutter at a particular speed. As one example, there was a fatal crash at Reno Air Races a while back where an unlimited racer (based on P-51 but with a Learjet horizontal stab) flew through the wake of another racer, which triggered flutter on the tail, which then failed. A Learjet tail is plenty strong and able of course to fly at very high speeds usually, but the aerodynamics were such that on the P-51, it could get into a regime where flutter could be triggered and result in catastrophic failure. Not only would you not see that coming by looking at the structure of the Learjet tail or knowing that it routinely flew at near Mach 1, but the designers and crew (much more experienced in building and modifying high-speed unlimited-class racing aircraft than you or I) obviously didn't. There are examples of very capable aircraft designers not knowing this based on structure or design, either, and only knowing it once seeing it happen in test flights.
The loss of sets of surfaces can't be modelling flutter as they detach exactly at the same time.
They can. Flutter can happen for both at about the same time. In fact, since they are nearly identical in design, one's first thought should be that both ailerons should could very well experience flutter at about the same time. Here are a couple videos of planes suffering failure to both left and right wings and/or both left and right wingtips at the about the same time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06WNSS4tFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbhQS6IljU
Besides the evaluation aircraft went faster than ours does this, without incident.
There are two aspects here. One is that you say this, but what is the situation and what is the reference? Did one person dive a Ki-84 to 550 mph and recover without damage to the aircraft while several other references state that it comes apart at 550? Also, failures in real life are stochastic things. There are some P-38's that tore apart in terminal-velocity dives and many P-38's that didn't. To model a P-38, you then need to choose whichever mode is more typical, or if you have enough data statistically, you could model it as a random process of failure of 1 in N terminal-velocity dives, but you'd need a lot more statistics than are likely available to judge that and to set N correctly.
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On March 19th of 1945 the crew of the USS Franklin certainly found the enemy relevant.
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When we were forced to run 100 LL fuel in our R-1820s, we had to re-index the props and had MAP limitations. This reduced available power, and correspondingly reduced climb and speed (not that we ran at full power very often). Essentially, we were down just over 200 hp.
Lets say you'd be forced to use higher grade than what you normally had, without MAP change, would you gain the power? Nope...
Japanese aircraft were generally limited to fuel with an octane rating of 88 or less.
Myth. They had sufficient quantities of 88 and 92 avgas. Their aircraft engines were designed to run on these grades of fuel.
When tested using 115/145 avgas, the full power of the engine was available and there was a significant increase in speed.
Well, KI-84 wasn't tested with 115/145 avgas. Ki-84 tests at Clark field were done with 92 avgas (plus methanol for WEP). Same fuel Japanese used to fuel their KI-84s. Even if it would be fueled with our higher grade avgas, it wouldn't matter, since no performance enhancing modifications were made on the aircraft.
This was exacerbated by the finish of the aircraft being far better than the typical service aircraft.
Irrelevant. AH does not model maintenance issues.
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Howdy, Nrshida.
No one can tell at all from looking at the structure...
Hi Brooke,
That comment was directed at those who feel the aircraft should be more fragile to damage from gunfire, not about the surfaces.
They can. Flutter can happen for both at about the same time. In fact, since they are nearly identical in design, one's first thought should be that both ailerons should could very well experience flutter at about the same time. Here are a couple videos of planes suffering failure to both left and right wings and/or both left and right wingtips at the about the same time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06WNSS4tFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbhQS6IljU
I'll watch those videos when possible, I have seen footage of flutter before but my first thought was that a structural failure would unlikely happen to two separate areas exactly at the same time. Are you conjecturing this is the explanation in AH or do you know this is the reason?
There are two aspects here. One is that you say this, but what is the situation and what is the reference? Did one person dive a Ki-84 to 550 mph and recover without damage to the aircraft while several other references state that it comes apart at 550? Also, failures in real life are stochastic things. There are some P-38's that tore apart in terminal-velocity dives and many P-38's that didn't. To model a P-38, you then need to choose whichever mode is more typical, or if you have enough data statistically, you could model it as a random process of failure of 1 in N terminal-velocity dives, but you'd need a lot more statistics than are likely available to judge that and to set N correctly.
No it was the pre-production evaluation aircraft upon which our version is based. I'll fetch the reference for you tomorrow. I can find no mention whatsoever to flutter or detaching surfaces in the literature.
I was wondering if Karnak found evidence for the Mosquito doing the same in the literature? If not then that might be suggestive.
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I've never read of the Mosquito losing control surfaces. The closest I have read of is the skin peeling off due to manufacturing defects, but those instances were always far below maximum allowed speed. I am aware of at least one Mk XVI that dove to speeds well above the maximum allowed as it tried to escape an Me262.
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I'll watch those videos when possible, I have seen footage of flutter before but my first thought was that a structural failure would unlikely happen to two separate areas exactly at the same time. Are you conjecturing this is the explanation in AH or do you know this is the reason?
I don't have any inside knowledge of how or why HTC models things, so anything I post like this is my conjecture. My thought is that, if one aileron is experiencing flutter, the other probably is within a very small speed range of doing the same. Given that failure in AH is often when the plane's speed is increasing, it would seem to me that both ailerons would experience flutter about the same time and thus fail about the same time.
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As most of us don't have the manuals and information on the internet can be flawed, we can really just speculate. My 2 cents having a pilot licence is this;
All aircraft have a Vne:
a maximum allowed speed, now im guessing most if not all ww2 pilots had ground school and were schooled in max speeds,maximum g load, and dive speeds not as many real pilots would do half the things we do in ah lol. That being said and the fact i like the ki i agree over 450 and ur fighting outside ur element.
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I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote.
If you look into the structure of this aircraft you can see how it is a little unusual and should have a good deal more integrity than a Spitfire, say. Anyone who has any actual data which implies the AH Hayate is overmodelled I'm sure HTC would love to see it as much as I.
The loss of sets of surfaces can't be modelling flutter as they detach exactly at the same time. Besides the evaluation aircraft went faster than ours does this, without incident.
I was referring to your comment on German engineering.
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For the record, early 1945 (January-March), enemy was still very relevant, especially in the Pacific
Which would make it not post-war.
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I was referring to your comment on German engineering.
Respectfully I think you misunderstood my comment about German engineering.
Yes thanks Brooke. Good points. :salute
I think it is interesting that the Mosquito shares this feature and that it is similarly unsupported in literature. My feeling is: a little bit of artistic licence, which is alright I suppose. Let's just home this and the other minor discrepancies are reconsidered if they redo the type.
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I hate to be the small boy explaining about the Emperor's new clothes, but that opinion is in face more due to modern marketing and manufacturing techniques (which are basically international). German engineering was / is also imperfect, especially in that period.
I don't mind if poor manufacture is modelled, but let's have it modelled equally across the board...
What's to misunderstand? You think that German engineering was "imperfect", especially in "that period". I assume that period is the 1930s and '40s. Would you care to clarify your meaning?
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What's to misunderstand? You think that German engineering was "imperfect", especially in "that period". I assume that period is the 1930s and '40s. Would you care to clarify your meaning?
Really GScholz, are you still getting customers with this approach? You remind me of Monty Python.
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Customers? With what approach?
I'll just consider you a "little Englishman" then; with noting left than an overstated ego and pride in a Britain long since turned to sheit. Certainly the German car industry has fared far better than the British, and the same goes for most fields of engineering. You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson, just without the charisma.
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Customers? With what approach?
:lol GScholz you're a bit transparent.
I'll just consider you a "little Englishman" then; with noting left than an overstated ego and pride in a Britain long since turned to sheit. Certainly the German car industry has fared far better than the British, and the same goes for most fields of engineering. You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson, just without the charisma.
Well there you go, the true you comes out :banana:
That's an awful lot of vitriolic and stereotypical assumption from such an insignificant and actually incidental comment. Shame you didn't actually understand my point, so sensitively wrapped in your bias as you are.
Do so. Enjoy yourself.
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Customers? With what approach?
I'll just consider you a "little Englishman" then; with noting left than an overstated ego and pride in a Britain long since turned to sheit. Certainly the German car industry has fared far better than the British, and the same goes for most fields of engineering. You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson, just without the charisma.
Lets face it the Norwegians were only ever any good at surprising and killing unarmed gay monks :rofl Once they ran into anyone with a few swords they got a severe beat down :ahand :banana:
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Yes. Unfortunately for Britain they only had unarmed gay monks, which is why they lost their precious little island to the Vikings/Normans. :ahand :cheers:
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Ask the Germans, if they think cruiser Blücher was driven by unarmed gay monks, when Norwegians sunk it.
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Yes. Unfortunately for Britain they only had unarmed gay monks, which is why they lost their precious little island to the Vikings/Normans. :ahand :cheers:
Once the Vikings got their rears handed to them they had to go back to fishing for the last 800 years or so in case they embarrassed themselves again :old: I read a book once that said they weren't very good at that either! Do you fish young man? :headscratch:
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Do you fish young man? :headscratch:
Not very well, no :rofl :rofl
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Ask the Germans, if they think cruiser Blücher was driven by unarmed gay monks, when Norwegians sunk it.
I thought that was mechanical failure of some type? They left a door open or what have ya. :)
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Respectfully I think you misunderstood my comment about German engineering.
"Respectfully" I think you're full of it. Have a pleasant evening. :aok
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"Respectfully" I think you're full of it. Have a pleasant evening. :aok
Britain beat the Bosch easily in WW2, that must sting some :old:
British engineering is the best in the world and always has been :old:
Britain is easily the greatest pound for pound nation in the history of the world :old:
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In the course of history, tribes of Scandinavian origin took over Germany, Britain, France, Italy, Spain, North Africa, and Russia. Just with respect to Britain, after the Romans, it was taken over by the Angles and the Saxons (Germanic tribes of Scandinavian origin), then later from them by the Normans (of Scandinavian origin). All tribes or nations historically have had some peak before and after which they were not as dominant, so the argument that at some point a particular tribe or nation was no longer dominant is moot. The dominant times of the Vikings, Goths, etc. were very dominant.
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Britain is easily the greatest pound for pound nation in the history of the world :old:
It's impressive, but the title might go to Gotland. :aok
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Britain beat the Bosch easily in WW2, that must sting some :old:
It was mostly the Soviets who beat the Germans, since 80% or more of the fighting in Europe (as measured by number of people fighting, number of casualties, number of guns, number of tanks, or size of territory, or any mixture of those) was between Germany and the Soviet Union.
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It's impressive, but the title might go to Gotland. :aok
Or to Macedon. :aok
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Come on Brooke Britain ruled 99% of the world at one stage and saved it twice :old:
Obviously Brooke is biased :cry
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Come on Brooke Britain ruled 99% of the world at one stage and saved it twice :old:
Obviously Brooke is biased :cry
Britain is a great nation, and I love Britain!
However, the Goths ruled Continental Europe and North Africa at one point, and Gotland (where they came from) is 1/1000th the size of Britain. Alexander the Great (from Macedon) took over a very large swath of the world, and Macedon was about 1/100th the size of Britain. I was just arguing with the "pound for pound" part. Also, there was Ghengis Khan, whose faction took over a large swath of Asia and Europe, but I'm not sure what to consider as the starting area size.
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Britain is a great nation, and I love Britain!
However, the Goths ruled Continental Europe and North Africa at one point, and Gotland (where they came from) is 1/1000th the size of Britain. Alexander the Great (from Macedon) took over a very large swath of the world, and Macedon was about 1/100th the size of Britain. I was just arguing with the "pound for pound" part. Also, there was Ghengis Khan, whose faction took over a large swath of Asia and Europe, but I'm not sure what to consider as the starting area size.
beat me too it :aok
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Djengis Khan was badass. We had to use bio-weapons to stop him. :angel:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54
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"Respectfully" I think you're full of it. Have a pleasant evening. :aok
Remarkable how much your avatar represents you personality. You seem more and more like a smarmy little Nazi with every post.
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In regards to German engineering and Manufacturing :old:
The German worker is very good because he is subsidised by the EU :rofl
The US forced them to bail out Greece or face the consequences of US letting the Chinese have a go at it :rofl
Horsedung Dork Techdik :rofl
When the UK threatened to leave the Eurozone the Germans pooed their pants :rofl
Why? :rofl
EON which is German owns the Electricity utilities in the UK and is used by the Germans to subsidise its mythical economic prowess :rofl
TNT a Dutch company that uses the British postal system at a subsidised rate :rofl
Japan is the same 6 people to do a one man job :rofl
Santandar Spanish bank given free access to British banking system :rofl
Britain is awesome if we get the vote to stick two fingers to the EU Myth all your subsidised economies will collapse :rofl
The World Bank and IMF dictate this and is based in the US and when they say jump the EU poos its pants :rofl
By the way we in Britain have been under thumb since 1066 by those Normans who were basically Vikings :rofl
German cars :rofl overrated overpriced and produced by a industry thats going to get out priced by the Chinese who are supported by US investment companies :rofl
How come i can by a $3000 PC with cash Horsedung Dork Techdick :rofl
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Remarkable how much your avatar represents you personality. You seem more and more like a smarmy little Nazi with every post.
First you make a controversial claim. Then you claim you were "misunderstood". Then, when asked to clarify you actually claim you are the one being trolled. And finally you play the nazi card!
You're awesome! :aok
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First you make a controversial claim. Then you claim you were "misunderstood". Then, when asked to clarify you actually claim you are the one being trolled. And finally you play the nazi card!
You're awesome! :aok
1. I don't think it's particularly controversial or difficult to substantiate. I just think you are oversensitive and biased and misunderstood it because of that.
2. I don't honestly think you wanted me to clarify it, I think you wanted me to fall for your standard 'pick up the gun' argument trap.
3. I suggest you are Nazi-like because you cannot tolerate an opinion which differs from your own & get very nasty and immediately resort to insults when someone is too smart to fall for point 2 because you haven't really got anything else in your bag and you get frustrated. You don't like to discuss, you like to try and crush other's opinions and anyone who has experienced your game already finds you predictable and rather tiresome.
4. I wonder if I'm so 'full of it' why it bothers you so much what I say.
5. \/..
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Wow Zack, that was one of the worst posts I have witnessed in a while. Next you will tell us that you were serious.
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1. I don't think it's particularly controversial or difficult to substantiate. I just think you are oversensitive and biased and misunderstood it because of that.
2. I don't honestly think you wanted me to clarify it, I think you wanted me to fall for your standard 'pick up the gun' argument trap.
3. I suggest you are Nazi-like because you cannot tolerate an opinion which differs from your own & get very nasty and immediately resort to insults when someone is too smart to fall for point 2 because you haven't really got anything else in your bag and you get frustrated. You don't like to discuss, you like to try and crush other's opinions and anyone who has experienced your game already finds you predictable and rather tiresome.
4. I wonder if I'm so 'full of it' why it bothers you so much what I say.
5. \/..
Nazi card again? And you end with a fabulous two-fingered salute. Classy! :aok
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in posting with the OP...last night I dropped on a 262.....got a bit target fixated and ripped both Ailerons off at same time haha
instantly thought of this thread.
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Nazi card again? And you end with a fabulous two-fingered salute. Classy! :aok
:lol I thought you might not know what that meant.
Yeah sorry Scholz, but you deserve it. Pop off now and run some small animals over with your BMW.
Bye bye now.
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Wow Zack, that was one of the worst posts I have witnessed in a while. Next you will tell us that you were serious.
I thought it was remarkably enlightened.
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time for a spot of tea and some cucumber sandwiches...
did you check with the Dr what medication needs to be taken?
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So after a complete hijacking of the thread....
Flutter.
I think a solution may have already been stated on terms of audible warnings of impending failure of a control surface. With flutter, you would feel the vibration prior to the failure, not just "blink" failure. Disclaimer... I am not an Aero Engineer, but I am an Engineer. It seems to me there would be warning signs prior to the failure. Every airplane being "new" at take off and up to specs.
I quit flying the Ki-84 because of this. For whatever reason I could never figure out the magic speed to not use ailerons during a dive and ended up with a 3 channel airplane.
I lost bost elevators on a 410 yesterday diving on a radar. I was in shallow enough of a dive that the plane naturally pulled out of it. There was no warning or stress sound on the airframe. It actually surprised me.
The question I have for the Aero guys out there in regard to Shida question is:
Given the amount of force a pilot is allowed in AH (60lbs?) on the sick, could they put enough pressure on a non boosted surface to cause it to fail at speed?
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Flutter can result in failure very quickly after start of the flutter (so quickly that the pilot can't do anything about it) -- it depends on the aerodynamics and the structure. It's not due to the pilot exerting control-stick pressure.
Some planes could experience, say, aileron flutter and survive it. Others didn't. It depends entirely on the aerodynamics and structure, not just one or the other. As an engineer, think resonance frequencies, structural failure, etc.
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Bye bye now.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/jumpwindow.gif)
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It's not so bad that you have to top yourself Scholz, just accept other people can have opinions you disagree with but are of equal value and face that you have to share the world and indeed this forum with them :P
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I do expect people to back up their opinions with something more than "you misunderstand" and "you're a troll". Not in your case though; you've made that abundantly clear. :aok
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Flutter can result in failure very quickly after start of the flutter (so quickly that the pilot can't do anything about it) -- it depends on the aerodynamics and the structure. It's not due to the pilot exerting control-stick pressure.
Some planes could experience, say, aileron flutter and survive it. Others didn't. It depends entirely on the aerodynamics and structure, not just one or the other. As an engineer, think resonance frequencies, structural failure, etc.
A reasonable experiment would be to see if the ki sheds without input...
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A reasonable experiment would be to see if the ki sheds without input...
My recollection is that it does.
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Don't forget trim...
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My recollection is that it does.
absolutely correct :aok
get it fast enough....after 500 for me....will shed with no inputs :aok
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Even when trimmed neutral? Trim changes the deflection of the control surfaces.
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Even when trimmed neutral? Trim changes the deflection of the control surfaces.
I use combat trim...never mess with it....so I am not sure :headscratch:
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Combat trim will trim nose down to compensate for the increasing speed. Turn off combat trim and set all trim to neutral and try it. You will have problems keeping it in a dive without control input though... Try a shallow inverted dive.
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I do expect people to back up their opinions with something more than "you misunderstand" and "you're a troll". Not in your case though; you've made that abundantly clear. :aok
I would explain if it were anyone but you. You aren't interested in discussion, you just want to hear it so you can devalue and dismiss it one piece at a time and impose your opinion on everyone else instead.
All it took to set you off this time was you thinking I was criticizing German engineering, when I refused to explain my comment (which you clearly didn't understand) you immediately resorted to insults: I said nothing about the car industry, nothing about British engineering, mentioned German engineering incidentally & certainly didn't deride Norway.
I'm curious, a few months back you had a parole status. Then Skuzzy said something about how you'd mellowed. Did you get a PNG for your 'pick up the gun' shenanigans in the past? :D
Anyway now I'm hijacking my own thread :rofl
I do not use combat trim, I manually trim at a certain speed and if I make a medium or less-than-slo-mo input at > 450 off something pops. I can trim out of a dive with no problem. At 480 things pop off even if I am control neutral.
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I would explain if it were anyone but you. You aren't interested in discussion, you just want to hear it so you can devalue and dismiss it one piece at a time and impose your opinion on everyone else instead. [Disregard rest of your troll post...]
Oh, now I'm the one not interested in a discussion? The irony is strong in this one... :rofl
You're awesome! :aok
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Flutter doesn't depend on control input, by the way. It is an aerodynamic instability of the control surface, not a steady-state force because of control-surface deflection.
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Oh, now I'm the one not interested in a discussion? The irony is strong in this one... :rofl
You're awesome! :aok
:bhead
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Oh, now I'm the one not interested in a discussion? The irony is strong in this one... :rofl
You're awesome! :aok
Well let's see, the Glock thread, the JSF thread, the straight edged sword thread...
The transference is strong in this one :D
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Well let's see, the Glock thread, the JSF thread, the straight edged sword thread...
The transference is strong in this one :D
Well... The Viking sword thread I started apparently insulted your Katana or something and you threw a hissy fit; no biggie. In both the Glock thread and F-35 thread my opinions were in line with many other participants of those discussions. Usually these other individuals were actual gun owners (people like me who have actually owned and shot a Glock), and people actually in the know with regard to the F-35 program (including a USAF crew chief and a fighter pilot (maybe even two if I remember correctly)). I guess all us "trolls" whose opinions differ from yours (and who don't argue from a position of ignorance, unlike you) are just out to "impose" our opinions on you. Poor downtrodden you. :cry
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Back on topic of the Ki-84. Spectacular aircraft that has an .. interesting... flutter issue which doesn't seem to be specifically recorded anywhere IRL (from what I've seen personally).
I've flown the Ki a little (nothing compared to Ink or nrshida) and made a personal note: Don't get the Ki over 400.. The Ki feels like a spit/K4 hybrid that excels at low speeds (like the spit and k4) but dislikes high speed to a much greater degree than the spit and k4.
I was usually too low and surrounded by too many red guys to get fast enough to rip things off, but it did happen a few times :old:
It certainly doesn't feel right to always lose both ailerons/elevators simultaneously at exactly X speed with Y G-load on cue ... every time :headscratch:
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the newer models of the mossie and hurricane, the A20 when loaded in a steep dive all do this.
I'd find it pretty hard to rip the wings off anything else at speed. Maybe it is just my stick settings.
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Well... The Viking sword thread I started apparently insulted your Katana or something and you threw a hissy fit; no biggie. In both the Glock thread and F-35 thread my opinions were in line with many other participants of those discussions. Usually these other individuals were actual gun owners (people like me who have actually owned and shot a Glock), and people actually in the know with regard to the F-35 program (including a USAF crew chief and a fighter pilot (maybe even two if I remember correctly)). I guess all us "trolls" whose opinions differ from yours (and who don't argue from a position of ignorance, unlike you) are just out to "impose" our opinions on you. Poor downtrodden you. :cry
Yes you are absolutely right about everything. You win. Everybody should certainly listen to you and no one should dare forward an opinion which doesn't agree with the marketing spiel, err I mean your well-formed and considered opinion. I do apologize for daring to speak in your presence.
Carry on :salute
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Yes you are absolutely right about everything. You win. Everybody should certainly listen to you and no one should dare forward an opinion which doesn't agree with the marketing spiel, err I mean your well-formed and considered opinion. I do apologize for daring to speak in your presence.
Oh, hardly. I've been wrong countless times, and when convinced of the fact I admit to being wrong. If the search function is working properly a search for "my mistake", "my bad" or similar phrases will turn up a good deal of my posts. Unlike you I don't consider a differing opinion an affront to my person, and I welcome a reasoned debate.
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Oh, hardly. I've been wrong countless times, and when convinced of the fact I admit to being wrong. If the search function is working properly a search for "my mistake", "my bad" or similar phrases will turn up a good deal of my posts. Unlike you I don't consider a differing opinion an affront to my person, and I welcome a reasoned debate.
Yup for sure, you are the most reasonable, respectful and civil person on this forum, who would never start casting personal insults because the other person wouldn't do things your way or go along with you. Like you did in this thread. Whoops, did I say that or just think it.
Let's just ignore each other shall we. That would suit me.
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(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/images-4_zps9f32fd6d.jpg)
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Now that Shida and I are done with our little purse fight, and have moved on to giving each other the silent treatment... Ink, how did the test dive go with neutral trim?
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Now that Shida and I are done with our little purse fight, and have moved on to giving each other the silent treatment... Ink, how did the test dive go with neutral trim?
been working havnt tested it......
but I am interested in that sword thread I somehow missed :headscratch:
and cant find to resurrect :D
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I don't think you missed it. It was the one with the video of a French blacksmith making a Viking sword. :rock
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,336925.0.html
Too bad the videos are no longer available.
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I don't think you missed it. It was the one with the video of a French blacksmith making a Viking sword. :rock
damn see how bad my short term memory is :lol
love the Viking swords.....Love the Katana swords......
I think its funny people I talk to about swords...especially the ones who own "wall hangers" that weigh 15 lbs.....Blade is made from stainless steel......of course me being me have to clue them in.....
ahhh dude a real deal sword only weighs about 3-4 lbs....hell William Wallace's sword that friggen Giant one only weighs about 4 and a half pounds....
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Yeah, some people seems to think a knight was carrying around hundreds of pounds of gear and armor, and if he fell he needed a bunch of guys to help him get back up. :lol
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Yeah, some people seems to think a knight was carrying around hundreds of pounds of gear and armor, and if he fell he needed a bunch of guys to help him get back up. :lol
blame the history channel for that.
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I own a broad sword. It is about 3.5lbs.
15lbs would be stupid. You couldn't wield that.
I think people see images of the jousting armor or the late armor meant to deal with early guns where the knight had to be hoisted onto his horse and think that is what medieval battle armor was like. Samurai armor is fairly light for its strength.
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Yeah, some people seems to think a knight was carrying around hundreds of pounds of gear and armor, and if he fell he needed a bunch of guys to help him get back up. :lol
:rofl :rofl
blame the history channel for that.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!
I own a broad sword. It is about 3.5lbs.
15lbs would be stupid. You couldn't wield that.
I think people see images of the jousting armor or the late armor meant to deal with early guns where the knight had to be hoisted onto his horse and think that is what medieval battle armor was like. Samurai armor is fairly light for its strength.
yup the Katana in my sig was 2.9 lbs.......a giant broad sword I had was a whopping 4.5 lbs :rock
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yup the Katana in my sig was 2.9 lbs.......a giant broad sword I had was a whopping 4.5 lbs :rock
Katana was a fine weapon for killing someone wearing a pajama. Large broadswords usually met either proper armor or very thick clothing/furs and a bit more oomph was needed.
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Katana was a fine weapon for killing someone wearing a pajama. Large broadswords usually met either proper armor or very thick clothing/furs and a bit more oomph was needed.
Not quite true. The point on a katana is very well shaped for punching through armor.
You're also grossly underselling the Japanese armor.
While the katana was not the mythic cutting weapon it is often portrayed as it was far more effective than just against pajamas as you dismissively put it.
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Not quite true. The point on a katana is very well shaped for punching through armor.
You're also grossly underselling the Japanese armor.
While the katana was not the mythic cutting weapon it is often portrayed as it was far more effective than just against pajamas as you dismissively put it.
:aok
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Ink can't have guns, however when some random boy wants to date his daughter, he sharpens his katana instead works on all male genitalia.
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Ink can't have guns, however when some random boy wants to date his daughter, he sharpens his katana instead works on all male genitalia.
:rofl :rofl
:aok
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Yeah, some people seems to think a knight was carrying around hundreds of pounds of gear and armor, and if he fell he needed a bunch of guys to help him get back up. :lol
Last time I was in a combat area I was carrying hundreds of pounds of gear and armour and needed a bunch of guys to help me up if I fell.
In actual fact probably around 100lbs of kit, rifle, helmet, body armour and boots. Spare link for the LMG, spare mortar rounds,occasionally link for the GPMG, radio, spare batteries, NVG's, grenades, smoke, water, scran. In actual fact, it was worked out that soldiers carry pretty much the same weight now as the Roman army did, verything has been made lighter and more compact but you end up carrying more crap as a result.
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Sure. Our winter backpack alone weighed 70+ pounds. However we didn't fight with all that gear on; we dump it asap and fought with only our combat gear which was perhaps 20 pounds total. Nowadays they have body armor in addition, so it's prolly 30+ pounds total combat gear.
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inmiddle school I had to carry 7 tect books, library books and other stuff. Total wieght 55 pounds. I guess their secretly prepping us for combat
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Sure. Our winter backpack alone weighed 70+ pounds. However we didn't fight with all that gear on; we dump it asap and fought with only our combat gear which was perhaps 20 pounds total. Nowadays they have body armor in addition, so it's prolly 30+ pounds total combat gear.
Try closer to 50. The full IOTV with side SAPIs is crazy heavy.
When I was a young 11B in 1/325 AIR, as a team leader my ruck was just a hair over 80 (CLS Bag and Breach Kit). This was the with three days of stuff, and blank, not live ammo. Then kick in the LBE with another 15 lbs or so, your rifle, right at 10, MILES, and a chute, I easily had more on me than I weighed when jumping.
Now back to the questions .... can flutter be simulated in the game, to give players fair warning before stripping parts. There is an awesome scary video of flutter on live leak of a business jet's wing just going crazy. Very .. Very scary to watch.
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Well... Over here we don't believe in the Robocop approach. In urban Iraq that may work, but in the Norwegian countryside, especially in wintertime, we need mobility more than armor.
Current combat gear:
(http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/01201/Modernesoldat01_120161416x9.jpg)
When I was in the army back in the early '90s we looked more like this:
(http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/01201/Modernesoldat01_120161116x9.jpg)
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Dont believe in the Robocop approach? Not sure what this means. The British Army apparently believe in the 'have enough kit to get the job done approach".
Of course we would dump the bergan in a contact but even CEFO meant carrying a serious amount of weight. I would rather be knackered and have enough ammo and water. :old:
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Robocop= heavy armor but slow.
As you can see from the pictures we don't need to carry a lot of water; it's literally everywhere. ;)
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Robocop= heavy armor but slow.
As you can see from the pictures we don't need to carry a lot of water; it's literally everywhere. ;)
;)
Maybe so but I was referring to my experience. Maybe if Norwegian forces carried more ammunition and ordnance they wouldnt have been over run in a week
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When were Norwegian forces overrun in a week?
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Probably within a week of 9th of May 1940. Just hazarding a guess
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Heh, guess you need to read up on history. ;) Of all the countries the Nazis occupied Norway held out the longest, 2 months. And in 1940, the only thing that saved Britain from falling to the Wehrmacht just like the rest of Europe was a thin stretch of water.
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Of course I am being pedantic, fascetious and more than a little belligerant in deference to your vitriolic posting history :aok
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And in 1940 the fighting men of this little country were on the opposite side of said 'thin stretch of water' fighting, whilst their allies either capitulated or were busy forming a government with which to bow and scrape to the Nazi's!!!
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Jersey, a part of the British Isles was occupied by Nazi forces... Does that mean The British held out longest :headscratch:
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Jersey, a part of the British Isles was occupied by Nazi forces... Does that mean The British held out longest :headscratch:
Bergerac never gave up the fight :old:
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Bergerac was a great series... :old:
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Bergerac was a great series... :old:
It really wasn't. And Charlie was a crook :P
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The real reason why ki84's didn't do well during the war... usa top secret weapons... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSHYpM1JDKE
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When were Norwegian forces overrun in a week?
The home of my ancestors has been overun since the Christians came with thier churches and robes :devil
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Yeah, we're still working on fixing that. :bhead
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When I was a young 11B in 1/325 AIR...
dirtdart, when were you a Red Falcon? I was there late 80s - C Co and HHC.
Regards,
Hammer
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Yeah, we're still working on fixing that. :bhead
one day I hope to visit Oslo and Bergen along with the fjords and Forrest
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Take the coastal steamer (Hurtigruta). :cheers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_VUjWfzEG8
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Take the coastal steamer (Hurtigruta). :cheers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_VUjWfzEG8
you wouldn't happen to have heard of Varg vikernes by Amy chance would you?
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Last I heard he got out of prison a couple of years ago and changed his name.
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Yes the murderous turd has. Oh well. Btw awesome cruise!!! Really going to try and go
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If you do, make sure you're here in the summer. Winters in Norway suck ice.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/norwaywinter.gif)
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If you do, make sure you're here in the summer. Winters in Norway suck ice.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/norwaywinter.gif)
:x
GoT!!!!!
Going to go when ever hole in the skyfest is going on
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be sure to rent "dead snow" before going to Norway! :O
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be sure to rent "dead snow" before going to Norway! :O
I think I saw that on either crackle or netflix
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Watch 'The Thing' :D
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Watch 'The Thing' :D
The new one or the classic John Carpenter one?
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The classic of course
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It was awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT7AH4JyuNs
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Katana was a fine weapon for killing someone wearing a pajama. Large broadswords usually met either proper armor or very thick clothing/furs and a bit more oomph was needed.
I just happend to pop in this thread and read this...
Having worn, built and tested both European and Far East armors (Japanese, in particular) I can tell you that the cloth based armors are incredibly effective and do not interfere with movement as much the European armor does. The one surprising feature of Far East armor I found was it didn't dissipate heat as well as the European metal armors. Probably as much do the layering effect of the Far East armor as much as due to increased conduction of the metal of the European model (even while wearing quilted arming jackets underneath).
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I just happend to pop in this thread and read this...
Having worn, built and tested both European and Far East armors (Japanese, in particular) I can tell you that the cloth based armors are incredibly effective and do not interfere with movement as much the European armor does. The one surprising feature of Far East armor I found was it didn't dissipate heat as well as the European metal armors. Probably as much do the layering effect of the Far East armor as much as due to increased conduction of the metal of the European model (even while wearing quilted arming jackets underneath).
Because of armor, the Katana was not the primary weapon of a samurai on the battle field. In real battle, they'd proudly wear their praised katana - and then grab a generic spear (Yari) or one of their polearms, or a big baseball bat to do the real killing. With European swords it depends - the real two handed swords were primary weapon of war, but the ones nick-named "bastard swords" (not a real name at the time) were secondary. Duels in Europe were often fought in full armor.
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Samurai also spent a lot of effort learning to be mounted archers, but yes, for melee the yari, naginata and those nasty looking studded clubs were dominant.
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The Tachi was really the Japanese sabre of the armour period which was usually carried cutting edge downwards, typically had more length & curvature and more taper and a cutting edge designed to penetrate armour. It is true that was rather down the priority list of weapons but was also wielded from horseback.
The evolution into the Katana, being one of the two part Daisho set, happened in the transition to more 'peaceful era' (if we can call it that). These were carried (and more significantly stored) edge up. This period is the phase were much of the fencing was refined to a Zen activity and also the blades began to be forged and polished as an artform in themselves.