Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wildcat1 on June 15, 2013, 08:32:57 PM

Title: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Wildcat1 on June 15, 2013, 08:32:57 PM
I'm in the market for a shotgun, I'm going to use it for home defense and occasionally for hunting turkey. I've never owned a shotgun and I don't have too much experience with them, so I'm sort of diving in blind here. I'm wondering what would be best for under $600?

Thanks :salute
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: guncrasher on June 15, 2013, 08:45:02 PM
where do you live.  apartment, house, trailer, car.  makes a little difference.


semp
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Spikes on June 15, 2013, 08:46:26 PM
Remington 870. Cheap and you can modify it for HD for cheap.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Widewing on June 15, 2013, 08:49:32 PM
This....

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-turkey/55116 (http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-turkey/55116)

Not ideal for home defense, but a good turkey gun. If you want both, you'll have to live with compromise....
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Fish42 on June 15, 2013, 08:52:29 PM
I'm in the market for a shotgun, I'm going to use it for home defense and occasionally for hunting turkey. I've never owned a shotgun and I don't have too much experience with them, so I'm sort of diving in blind here. I'm wondering what would be best for under $600?

Thanks :salute


Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.

Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Wildcat1 on June 15, 2013, 08:54:34 PM
where do you live.  apartment, house, trailer, car.  makes a little difference.


semp

Appartment, 550 sq. ft.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: CAP1 on June 15, 2013, 09:03:04 PM
i like this. for hd.  :devil

(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/19112_zps5e6c991b.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/1LTCAP/media/19112_zps5e6c991b.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Widewing on June 15, 2013, 09:50:52 PM

Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.



He didn't ask for a political opinion. He asked about which is a satisfactory shotgun for his needs. If you don't have a shotgun suggestion... Don't reply. Skuzzy will not tolerate gun control discussions, and you're trying to turn this into one.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: RedBull1 on June 15, 2013, 09:58:41 PM

Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.




(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4757209898681894&pid=1.7)

 :furious
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Shamus on June 15, 2013, 10:22:40 PM
Ya a turkey gun and a home defense gun are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

shamus
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Nathan60 on June 15, 2013, 10:35:37 PM

Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.


Bad guys like to go after houses in a 'safer' location nobody b&e's the ghetto. Crooks have the ability to travel aswell ya know.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: SmokinLoon on June 15, 2013, 10:49:14 PM
Ya a turkey gun and a home defense gun are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

shamus

No, they are not at different ends of the spectrum.  The difference between the two is the choke tubes.  Nothing more.  Yeah, a person can get all tacti-coolio with all the BS gadgets, or he could buy himself a decent Remington, Browning, Mossberg, or other such legit non fad gun (a.k.a. Benelli), and have plenty of cash left over for a camo wrap, extra choke tubes, and some different kinds of ammo.  A home defense shotgun does not have to have an extended mag tube, an 18in barrel, a pistol grip, or other such stuff.

I have a close friend who uses a Browning A500 for pheasant, duck, goose, turkey and deer hunting.  The only thing he changes is the choke tubes, installs sights on his 24in barrel for slug use, and he adds the camo wrap for turkey.  He stores it in his bedroom and is probably about #2 on his list of "go to" guns when things go bump in the night (#1 being a pistol).

I vote for a Remington 870.  A very tried and true design with loads of experience and company support behind it.  Also, there are MANY accessories out there available to fine tune it to anything you want or need and then some. 
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: guncrasher on June 15, 2013, 11:13:06 PM
I dont know using a shotgun in an apartment that small with neighbors all around, it's scary.  then again using a handgun...then again having nothing to protect yourself, it's also scary.

whatever you decide to get just I hope you will never had the need to use it.


semp
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: bigsky on June 15, 2013, 11:22:08 PM
Remington 870, no doubt about it. Lots of accessory's get one that can do 3 inch mags. I do not know if they make them for 3 and half mags but i would get that one. get a gunsmith to put a forcing cone to the barrel that you want to hunt and sporting clays with. 
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: TopGear on June 15, 2013, 11:40:52 PM
Remington 870 is pretty good all around. Not the nicest action out of the few brands Ive shot. My brother and I and one nephew all have super magnums. We shoot quite a bit of 3 1/2" during goose season and they tend to jam every once in a while.  My nephew called Remington and walked him through some fixes right over the phone. Pretty impressed with them for that.   The 2 3/4 and 3" shells seem to work more consistently.
 
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Wildcat1 on June 16, 2013, 12:35:00 AM
Thanks for the tips, guys. I've always liked Remington, I've had a 700 CDL chambered in 7mm Rem Mag for a few years now, and their customer support is top notch.

I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of/used this shotgun, the Remington 887?
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-887/model-887-nitro-mag-tactical.aspx (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-887/model-887-nitro-mag-tactical.aspx)

It seems to be based off of the 870, and it's almost $50 less expensive than an 870 of similar specifications.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: saggs on June 16, 2013, 01:11:27 AM
This....

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-turkey/55116 (http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-turkey/55116)

Not ideal for home defense, but a good turkey gun. If you want both, you'll have to live with compromise....

No compromise needed.

Both the Remington 870 series and the Mossberg 500 series are very easy to swap barrels, magazine tubes and even grips on.  

My advice for a shotgun, pick up an 870 express for around $300.  Then get a short barrel and magazine extension for another $150-$200.  Still well under your $600 budget and you essentially have 2 shotguns.  Use the short barrel and mag extension for home defense, when you want to go hunting put on the long barrel and standard magazine/w plug (if it's required in your area) and you're good to go.  Honestly it takes less than 2 minutes to change the barrel.

FYI:  Everything I said also applies to a Mossberg 500.  I just own and prefer 870s so I used it as an example, both are great shotguns.




Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.



Oh boy..  the Arthur Kellerman report BS again, that study was thoroughly and immediately shown to be utter bunk when it was released in 1986, it is totally false.  If you wanna know just how bogus it is PM me, I don't wanna get this thread rule #14ed    
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: saggs on June 16, 2013, 01:23:53 AM
Thanks for the tips, guys. I've always liked Remington, I've had a 700 CDL chambered in 7mm Rem Mag for a few years now, and their customer support is top notch.

I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of/used this shotgun, the Remington 887?
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-887/model-887-nitro-mag-tactical.aspx (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-887/model-887-nitro-mag-tactical.aspx)

It seems to be based off of the 870, and it's almost $50 less expensive than an 870 of similar specifications.


I wouldn't bother with any of the factory tactical shotguns.  Like I just pointed out, you can buy a hunting/sport shotgun for much, much less $$$ (I saw brand new 870 Expresses for $299 at a major retailer last month) then also buy whatever tactical (or tacticool) accessories you want (short barrel, mag extension, compensator, picatinny rail, pistol grip, speedloader, sights, etc...) and save a lot of money.  Plus then you still have the option of swapping back to the long barrel and other stock parts if you ever want to go hunting or bust some clays.

As for the 887, it's a relatively new model and I have no firsthand experience with it.  I'll just say this, the 870 has been around for decades and has a proven track record in sporting/hunting, law enforcement, home defense and military applications.  With an 870 you KNOW you're getting a super reliable proven design, the 887 is still a question mark and it has been getting "mixed" reviews so far.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Rich46yo on June 16, 2013, 03:59:49 AM

Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.



Lol, really? I'd go with either a Mossie or an 870.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Rich46yo on June 16, 2013, 04:03:49 AM

Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.



Boy I hope your kidding. I'd go with either a Mossie or a 870. You can buy an extra barrel and defensive stock for $600 and when spring comes you can go to your standard for turkey hunting. I missed my bird this year. GD rained on me for 3 days and when this Jake finally came to the edge of my dekes he hung up. I thought he was 40 yrds out, it turned out to be 47, and dang if I didnt miss him with my Browning Gold 3&1/2". First time I ever missed a turkey. :mad:
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Rich46yo on June 16, 2013, 04:05:25 AM

Why do you need a gun for home defense? If you feel threaten where you are, move out to a safer location. You have a higher chance of shooting yourself then using it to stop a bad guy.



Boy I hope your kidding. I'd go with either a Mossie or a 870. You can buy an extra barrel and defensive stock for $600 and when spring comes you can go to your standard for turkey hunting. I missed my bird this year. GD rained on me for 3 days and when this Jake finally came to the edge of my dekes he hung up. I thought he was 40 yrds out, it turned out to be 47, and dang if I didnt miss him with my Browning Gold 3&1/2". First time I ever missed a turkey. :mad:
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: RngFndr on June 16, 2013, 07:44:25 AM
Any of the big 3 will work.. Rem/Moss/Win, They are all pretty much the same..
Any of the Deerslayers or Turkeyguns are good, often come with rifle sights installed..
Pretty much the same as a defense Shotgun aside from mag capacity, and maybe a rifled barrel..

Remington and Mossberg have the widest variety of accessories and doodads available..
Have fun..

(edit) saggs had a good suggestion about being able to convert..
I think Mossberg actually sells one that way, with both long and short barrels included.. 
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Shifty on June 16, 2013, 08:14:54 AM
Do you have any friends with shotguns? If so, why not go out and shoot theirs to get an idea of what you're in for. I have a 12ga Mossie I use for home defense. Nothing fancy easy to use easy to hit with and not terribly expensive. Plus if worse comes to worse and I actually did have an intruder in the house I would feel safer engaging him with a shotgun than I would  one of my rifles or high powered pistol. I would be way too worried about rounds from a rifle or pistol penetrating through my walls and into my neighbor's homes.

No, they are not at different ends of the spectrum.  The difference between the two is the choke tubes.  Nothing more.  Yeah, a person can get all tacti-coolio with all the BS gadgets, or he could buy himself a decent Remington, Browning, Mossberg, or other such legit non fad gun (a.k.a. Benelli), and have plenty of cash left over for a camo wrap, extra choke tubes, and some different kinds of ammo.  A home defense shotgun does not have to have an extended mag tube, an 18in barrel, a pistol grip, or other such stuff.

I have a close friend who uses a Browning A500 for pheasant, duck, goose, turkey and deer hunting.  The only thing he changes is the choke tubes, installs sights on his 24in barrel for slug use, and he adds the camo wrap for turkey.  He stores it in his bedroom and is probably about #2 on his list of "go to" guns when things go bump in the night (#1 being a pistol).

I vote for a Remington 870.  A very tried and true design with loads of experience and company support behind it.  Also, there are MANY accessories out there available to fine tune it to anything you want or need and then some. 


+1
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: RngFndr on June 16, 2013, 08:29:51 AM
Another thing to consider..

Many of the Brand new shotguns, are being made with lower quality components..
Cost cutting ya know??? MANY people have noticed this..

For this reason I would get an 870 over an 887.. And a M500A over an M500C..
You might consider a slightly used Shotgun, about 10yrs old..

Better than new!
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Spikes on June 16, 2013, 09:47:22 AM
Thanks for the tips, guys. I've always liked Remington, I've had a 700 CDL chambered in 7mm Rem Mag for a few years now, and their customer support is top notch.

I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of/used this shotgun, the Remington 887?
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-887/model-887-nitro-mag-tactical.aspx (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-887/model-887-nitro-mag-tactical.aspx)

It seems to be based off of the 870, and it's almost $50 less expensive than an 870 of similar specifications.

I own one, it is at my grandparents house currently. It is a great gun and fun to shoot, but the foregrip feels very cheap. As said above, I would buy a barebones shotgun...most likely just a synthetic one with an 18.5" barrel and go from there. That 887 is nice for the price, though. I think we sell our tacticals at my workplace for $499.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: mbailey on June 16, 2013, 09:56:17 AM
I have a 25+yr old Mossberg 500 with interchangable barrels. My 28" is for turkey and choked (Full) It also has a 20" smoothbore slug barrel. I store it with the slub BBL on it.....Its nice and short, patterns buckshot well and is small enough to allow me to swing around in my hallways without having to worry about the long BBL hitting the walls.  The 870s are nice as well...both you can purchase in a Combo model (2 bbls) and will get you well below your budget.

One factor i saw mentioned is the size and construction of your home.....you dont want anything overpenetrating into places you dont want it to go.....this is really an important factor to take into account
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: bmwgs on June 16, 2013, 05:01:05 PM
Winchester Defender would be a good choice.

Like someone said earlier, any of the big three would work for home defense.

Fred
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Widewing on June 17, 2013, 06:15:30 PM

whatever you decide to get just I hope you will never had the need to use it.


semp

Can somebody say Amen?!

I have a 12 gauge tactical shotgun for home security. I pray that I never shoot a round through it except and the range. The absolute last thing I want to do is shoot a bad guy. Doesn't mean I won't, it means I prefer not to have to make that decision. Ever.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: smoe on June 17, 2013, 06:32:18 PM
Can somebody say Amen?!

I pray that I never shoot a round through it except and the range. The absolute last thing I want to do is shoot a bad guy. Doesn't mean I won't, it means I prefer not to have to make that decision. Ever.

Same here, way too much to lose. I also want to buy something for self-defense, but I want it to be useful for other purposes like hunting, fun at the range, cheap, etc.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: guncrasher on June 17, 2013, 06:46:05 PM
what fish is saying is the other side of the coin.  if you must get a gun to defend your home then perhaps the wise choice would be to move.  I live in a middle class neighborhood, but the crime rate in my city is low.  but I do own two handguns that I keep next to me just in case.  but I am not "hardcore" like my friend who has a zillion guns with enough ammo to supply the contras.  he looks at it as money well spent, I look at it as I could have bought a Harley with 1/3 of that and have enough money left to get me some plastic surgery and a tummy tuck to get some chicks to driver around.

not sure where most of you guys live but to some of us when you say things like "get a couple of friends and go turkey shooting" or something like that, well the only turkeys around here would be the neighbors around the corner.  we are city folks so if we say things "why would you need a gun" dont bring up the gun politics.  we sometimes just mean to say "do you live in a safe neighborhood and if you dont then please  move".  you on the other hand think, "no way I am moving".  just different ways of thinking.  you make your choice according to your own ideas.

like i say we just gotta try to understand each other a bit.


semp
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: 1pLUs44 on June 17, 2013, 06:47:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5vD03ZHgvA

Norinco Trench gun  :rock

You gotta love the slam fire (not to mention, I got mine for about 500$, bought the bayonet separately for 100$)

Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: saggs on June 17, 2013, 08:24:51 PM
what fish is saying is the other side of the coin.  if you must get a gun to defend your home then perhaps the wise choice would be to move.  I live in a middle class neighborhood, but the crime rate in my city is low.  but I do own two handguns that I keep next to me just in case.  but I am not "hardcore" like my friend who has a zillion guns with enough ammo to supply the contras.  he looks at it as money well spent, I look at it as I could have bought a Harley with 1/3 of that and have enough money left to get me some plastic surgery and a tummy tuck to get some chicks to driver around.

not sure where most of you guys live but to some of us when you say things like "get a couple of friends and go turkey shooting" or something like that, well the only turkeys around here would be the neighbors around the corner.  we are city folks so if we say things "why would you need a gun" dont bring up the gun politics.  we sometimes just mean to say "do you live in a safe neighborhood and if you dont then please  move".  you on the other hand think, "no way I am moving".  just different ways of thinking.  you make your choice according to your own ideas.

like i say we just gotta try to understand each other a bit.


semp

You and fish seem to be operating under the illusion that home invasions, B&E, smash and grabs etc. only happen in "BAD" neighborhoods.  Here's a thought... most bad guys can walk, some may even have a bus pass, or maybe even a vehicle  :O  shocking I know.  They DON'T CARE what neighborhood you're in.  In fact if they are looking to score some primo loot they can hock to support whatever illicit habits they have, they will intentionally target more affluent neighborhoods.

Here's another thought, some people are at a point in their live where they moving to a nicer neighborhood is a financial impossibility.  It's all well and good to tell people to just move to a gated community with alarms everywhere and 24/7 private security...  that is a luxury that many Americans simply cannot afford.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: SIK1 on June 17, 2013, 08:47:43 PM
It's always better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: guncrasher on June 17, 2013, 08:57:43 PM
You and fish seem to be operating under the illusion that home invasions, B&E, smash and grabs etc. only happen in "BAD" neighborhoods.  Here's a thought... most bad guys can walk, some may even have a bus pass, or maybe even a vehicle  :O  shocking I know.  They DON'T CARE what neighborhood you're in.  In fact if they are looking to score some primo loot they can hock to support whatever illicit habits they have, they will intentionally target more affluent neighborhoods.

Here's another thought, some people are at a point in their live where they moving to a nicer neighborhood is a financial impossibility.  It's all well and good to tell people to just move to a gated community with alarms everywhere and 24/7 private security...  that is a luxury that many Americans simply cannot afford.

like i said I have two just in case somebody tries to break in when I am here.  however I am not under the illusion that I'll be home if somebody decides to break into my house.  most likely they will walk away with the coins in my piggy bank and the safe containing both guns, if they can get it unbolted from where i have it.  one thing I learned from a previous pig squaddied that came to visit last year. 




semp
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: hammer on June 18, 2013, 10:10:12 AM
I dont know using a shotgun in an apartment that small with neighbors all around, it's scary.  then again using a handgun...then again having nothing to protect yourself, it's also scary....

Saw a nice little piece on the outdoor channel a few months ago where they tested various rounds for suitability for home defense. The criteria was simple: . 1. ability to penetrate a bad guy at room distance and 2. lack of lethality after penetrating "normal" drywall walls. They came up with a shotgun with #7 shot (IIRC). At room distances (10 - 15 ft), it penetrated their leather jacket wearing ballistic gel target nicely, but lost most of it's energy penetrating the two pieces of drywall. An important consideration in an apartment or in a house with others.

Regards,

Hammer
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Widewing on June 18, 2013, 06:30:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5vD03ZHgvA

Norinco Trench gun  :rock

You gotta love the slam fire (not to mention, I got mine for about 500$, bought the bayonet separately for 100$)



I see these Chinese knock-offs at SASS events. They are rather rough, but seem to be reliable. Most SASS users get their's tuned up by their local gunsmith. Some gunsmiths won't work on them. The Win 97 and clones will slam fire, meaning that you can hold the trigger down and cycle the action to shoot.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: rpm on June 18, 2013, 07:02:57 PM
Remington 870.  :aok
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Reschke on June 18, 2013, 07:13:04 PM
I see these Chinese knock-offs at SASS events. They are rather rough, but seem to be reliable. Most SASS users get their's tuned up by their local gunsmith. Some gunsmiths won't work on them. The Win 97 and clones will slam fire, meaning that you can hold the trigger down and cycle the action to shoot.

I have seen these as well Widewing and they are nice little guns for what they cost.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Plawranc on June 18, 2013, 08:48:40 PM
As an Australian It is illegal for us to own firearms of any value.

But from what experience I do have, the gun I've always wanted to own is a Remington 870 Shotgun. 12 Gauge, Good action and will drop anything and anyone.
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Widewing on June 18, 2013, 10:10:06 PM
I have seen these as well Widewing and they are nice little guns for what they cost.

The most bang for the buck that I've seen in shotguns is the H&R Pardner Protector.... Inexpensive (about 50% of the 870, and more durable).

H&R is a Remington affiliated company, hence the Pardner is an 870 clone. All 870 aftermarket stuff will bolt right on. The exception is the barrel. The H&R uses a different barrel mounting (as strong or stronger, but different).

I own one. It's the fire ax of shotguns. Utterly reliable, but no frills. At $200 or less, it can't be beat on value. It has a Parkized finish (phosphate), which is far more durable and corrosion resistant than ordinary bluing.

Below my photo is a link to a review.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/304165_2624006244791_1473414730_n.jpg)

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/ralph/gun-review-hr-1871-pardner-pump-protector-12-gauge/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/ralph/gun-review-hr-1871-pardner-pump-protector-12-gauge/)
Title: Re: Best Shotgun for Under $600?
Post by: Gman on June 19, 2013, 04:47:08 AM
It's a shame that 14" shotguns are considered NFA or whatever you call you 200 tax stamp thing you have to apply for with short shotties/rifles and suppressors in the USA.  The Mossberg 590 14" is my primary shotgun, and with the 4 round speed stock and side saddle, I can run with 15 rounds on the gun itself, and still have something short and maneuverable for fighting inside buildings and structures.  The slightly longer 590 is still a pretty amazing tool, as of course is any 870, but try and get the actual Police variant, and not the cheapy express if you can afford it.  Honestly for the money I would say the 590 full length is my personal favorite, a 9 shot shotgun with excellent factory ghost ring sights, and a 4 round speed stock.  You can run 19 rounds on that shotgun with a side saddle as well.

The only downside is Mossberg 590's are a bit of a pain to break down and reassemble for cleaning, the 870 is far, far easier in this regard, and the 590 in comparison is like some sick twisted IQ test on spatial orientation.