Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Tank-Ace on July 01, 2013, 03:58:41 PM
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Despite everyone saying its crap, I have a good impression of it. Not real fast, but of course neither is a B-17. Guns are positioned a bit stupidly (for AH use anyway), but its nice and light at the controls.
Once I got down to one bomber, I had a fantastic fight with a 109F-4, and gave a mossie a rough time.
Fun little bomber overall.
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The He-111 is pure crap. Slow to climb, defensive armament is rather weak and forget about high alt or speed. For scenarios and FSO its a decent 1940 bomber, I much prefer the Ju-88 at least for its speed.
Even the late war variants were not any good, but for the main arena its simply meat on the table for any fighter EW or late.
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It may be fun, but it is so bad that it managed to achieve a worse K/D ratio than the armorless G4M1 'Betty'.
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Too bad Skuzzy pulled the # of sortie stats years ago. I would like to see the loss % per sortie for the He 111 and the G4M
While being more vulnerable to hits, the G4M can shoot back more effectively an even more importantly: It climbs like a rocket, so it can quickly reach 20k, bomb a base close to the front line and retreat back into friendly airspace. A He 111 takes much longer to do that, which is increasing the risk of being noticed. Which usually means a certain death.
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/he111.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/he111.jpg.html)
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I have a 5 K/D in this bird. I love people thinking its an easy kill. :devil
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I have a 5 K/D in this bird.
Not against planes ;)
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I have a 5 K/D in this bird. I love people thinking its an easy kill. :devil
then you haven't met me yet :neener:
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Not against planes ;)
fine :p 3 K/D vs planes this tour.
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I still like it. It has a nice distribution of ordnance.
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fine :p 3 K/D vs planes this tour.
Which is only ~1 day old. :P
Overall you are at 7-14 (K/D 0.5) vs planes in the He 111. Which is actually great for a He-111 pilot in the LW arena (seriously - it's about 5 times better than average!), but even more highlights that in general, the Spaten is mostly just a victim there :old:
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I still like it. It has a nice distribution of ordnance.
Yes, it does have a nice list of options for ordnance.
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Which is only ~1 day old. :P
Overall you are at 7-14 (K/D 0.5) vs planes in the He 111. Which is actually great for a He-111 pilot in the LW arena (seriously - it's about 5 times better than average!), but even more highlights that in general, the Spaten is mostly just a victim there :old:
Lol, ok ok. I did not help that K/D when I took a gunner and tried to dogfight with it.
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Lol, ok ok. I did not help that K/D when I took a gunner and tried to dogfight with it.
Hmmm When i think about it I imagine it could be more helpful than just holding still and waiting 'till you got shot down. Heck, you might even get a off a shot from your otherwise near useless MG/FF ! :old:
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Hmmm When i think about it I imagine it could be more helpful than just holding still and waiting 'till you got shot down. Heck, you might even get a off a shot from your otherwise near useless MG/FF ! :old:
This is the most troubling thing I've ever read about hte He-111, ground strafing 20mms when the aircraft was unable to defend itself from rear attacks. If the 111 ever had 13mm or 20mms in the rear it would of certainly had a better survival rate.
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Hmmm When i think about it I imagine it could be more helpful than just holding still and waiting 'till you got shot down. Heck, you might even get a off a shot from your otherwise near useless MG/FF ! :old:
It worked quite well, my gunner oiled and smoked a few planes, but no kills. Even kept a 262 honest as he did not want to risk HOing 2 20mms.
You have to be very careful as the wings don't take much to break off.
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Despite everyone saying its crap, I have a good impression of it. Not real fast, but of course neither is a B-17. Guns are positioned a bit stupidly (for AH use anyway), but its nice and light at the controls.
Once I got down to one bomber, I had a fantastic fight with a 109F-4, and gave a mossie a rough time.
Fun little bomber overall.
It seems as versatile as its ordnance packages, which are nice but if more selection were available to us in the ordnance loadout I feel like it could be that much better. It's definetley not fast or durable, but at delivering ordnances and with the choices you have to deliver it's one of the best bombers in the game atm.
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/he111.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/he111.jpg.html)
That's my main bomber :furious
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That's my main bomber :furious
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/he111-1.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/he111-1.jpg.html)
I think it's over-modeled. Just like the 110C. :)
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The front 20mm's both seem to have a very limitted range of motion, why I made other thread in wish list for the whole plane to move when we reach a limit. The pilot was right next to these gunners anyways, he would surely 'help" as required. The rudder trick alone isn't making the grade.
Would also be nice if pilots could still jump to gunner stations when had an extra player on board. Better still, the ability to add as many players as crew members on planes.
By the way, in 1939 and then some, the he-111 was probably the most advanced aircraft in the world, more complex than just a fighter plane... example, some Polish pilot got a medal for ramming three he-111s, he told others how to do it, then he died on the fouth attempt. Yes too luftwaffe planes were more advanced than even English planes, for example fuel injection, spit flaps were only 'up' or 'down.' Also, spits didn't have variable pitch props, right? Also radiator position, etc etc.
Game features may not show but 111ks only real probs in early war was Enland's radar. That said, no bomber is safe from fighters, not even the Ameican 'heavies' with there overwhelming numbers.
Give the luftwaffes the 177 and then we can talk peace! :-P
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Perhaps the first thing I can agree on with you
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The front 20mm's both seem to have a very limitted range of motion, why I made other thread in wish list for the whole plane to move when we reach a limit. The pilot was right next to these gunners anyways, he would surely 'help" as required. The rudder trick alone isn't making the grade.
By the way, in 1939 and then some, the he-111 was probably the most advanced aircraft in the world, more complex than just a fighter plane... example, some Polish pilot got a medal for ramming three he-111s, he told others how to do it, then he died on the fouth attempt. Yes too luftwaffe planes were more advanced than even English planes, for example fuel injection, spit flaps were only 'up' or 'down.' Also, spits didn't have variable pitch props, right? Also radiator position, etc etc.
Game features may not show but 111ks only real probs in early war was Enland's radar. That said, no bomber is safe from fighters, not even the Ameican 'heavies' with there overwhelming numbers.
Give the luftwaffes the 177 and then we can talk peace! :-P
Sorry to say Germany lacked in Bombers. True no bomber is safe from fighters, however the Americans seemed to made better ones then Germany did. The fact that the He-111 was never up gunned amazes me. Perhaps in 1940 the armament was enough to survive, its clear during the battle of britain the armament of the german luftwaffe bombers was simply not enough.
The 177 might be the only axis bomber that can actually defend itself to the target and back, assuming the engine problems don't get added - what most fail to remember is the Axis flown mostly against under armed allied planes for a good duration of the war.
Allied bombers as well, even the mighty B-17 was shown to be meat on a plate, even when its legendary durability and heavy armament, you have to consider the axis planes which had almost barely any defensive firepower and lack of durability.
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I think Wikipedia says in Battle of Britain:
Total aircraft:
England: 1,963
Germany: 2,550
England lost 1034 single engine fighters
Germany lost 533 single engine fighters.
Total aircraft lost:
England: 1,547 sooo by my math: 1,547 - 1034 = 513 bomber losses.
Germany: 1,887 sooo by my math: 1,887 - 533 = 1,354 bomber losses.
And this is with England having radar and fighting over friendly territory so their planes could land anywhere, get repaired and back in action rather than a loss in the channel.
So don't get too excited while talking trash about the He-111s.
And don't confuse American heavies with England heavies. B17 had way more guns and crews...
Lancaster (7,377 made) : Crew: 7: pilot, flight engineer, navigator, bomb aimer/nose gunner, wireless operator, mid-upper and rear gunners <--- 3 gunners (only 1 more than a stuka)
B17 ( 12,731 made): Crew: 10: Pilot, co-pilot, navigator, bombardier/nose gunner, top turret gunner, radio operator, waist gunners (2), ball turret gunner, tail gunner <--- 6 gunners
B24 (18,482 made) : Crew: 11 (pilot, co-pilot, navigator, bombardier, radio operator, nose turret, top turret, 2 waist gunners, ball turret, tail gunner) <--- 6 gunners
Check this website for losses:
http://www.usshancockcv19.com/history6.htm
177's were fixed but was too late far as Germany's situation, check this thread, its all been discussed.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345695.0.html
No I do NOT hate England, again this is because some dumdumpoopyhead is talking mess about luftwaffes again. :frown:
USA wasn't as big as Russia, but it was further away from Germany than England was... ~ by me! :D
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I like the He 111. I use it for torpedo runs on fleets (which because of 5" is usually hopeless, but I sneak in sometimes). It seems OK in sturdiness, I like its defensive fire a little better than the Ju 88, and it looks cool (like a sea creature from a much earlier branch of the evolutionary tree). :)
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It feels very nimble for a bomber, too. Almost fighter-like in some respects.
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/he111-1.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/he111-1.jpg.html)
I think it's over-modeled. Just like the 110C. :)
It's underpowered... like the brain cells in a Midway. :old:
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For nimble, also try the ju88 with 25% fuel too short of flights but 50% makes it just a bit heavy too... this is without bombs of course.
It has 2 of everything, just about, so by default, it has 'durability.'
Rear guns, most fighters line up riiight exactly behind it, where the ju88 can put some 'sting' - 3 mg's... no fighter can stay back there forever, so it gives the ju88 a chance if fighter is acting 'stupid' - maybe a better word, 'careless.'
Ju88's do turn, big wings, without bombs they are slightly light, someone want to post wing-loading and power-loading stuff? And the front mg again, has tons of amo, so can spray.
I once shot down an f4u after a few mins dogfight! :cool:
Difference between ju88 and he111 ???
The ju88 PILOT can fire his forward guns.
The he111 PILOT can not, he must first move to the station... BOO !!!
New wish, make all bombers able to fire their forward weapons with normal trigger!
Maybe have the 2ndary trigger connected to all the other guns to just fire straight out?
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The Ju88 pilot can fire his ONE FIXED forward firing gun (because it is aimed by flying the plane), any gun that is on a flexable mount and required a gunner to aim and fire it should not be firable by the pilot. It really is that simple.
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The Ju88 pilot can fire his ONE FIXED forward firing gun (because it is aimed by flying the plane), any gun that is on a flexable mount and required a gunner to aim and fire it should not be firable by the pilot. It really is that simple.
:rock
Although we can all agree a 13mm or 20mm option would be cool :cool:
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Actually, the climb rate of the He111 is rather good. No, it does not cover a lot of ground in doing so, but it can climb to 15k faster than many other bombers. The downside is the speed in which it gets in and out of a hot spot, at best it is going to move at 260 TAS. I'm a bit surprised the Germans put both 20mm's at the front. It is fun though getting hits on an over-shooting fighter. ;)
The He111 is a prime example of a good bomber than needs an escort. It has very useful bomb load out options. It is sad that many leave it behind because they refuse the challenge and/or can't get a squad mate to escort them in a fighter. The 109F-4, 109G-2, and 190A-5 are excellent and period correct escorts. Try it sometime. :aok Heaven forbid anyone takes up a challenge.
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but it can climb to 15k faster than many other bombers.
Which ones?
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Which ones?
Ju87, Lanc, B29, :old:
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Ju87, Lanc, B29, :old:
Ju-87 is not a level bomber.
And the Lanc or the B-29? No. :)
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But Ju87 is a bomber ;)
yes I'm being a smart ass :old:
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Ju-87 is not a level bomber.
And the Lanc or the B-29? No. :)
Please post the times from sea level to 15k of all three when loaded with their typical bomb load and fuel load. My notes (to 12k, mind you) are showing a better or similar climb rate throughout, and better than the B24 and B29 at less than 10k. I said 15k, I should have looked at my notes because I only tested to 12k. As it stands the He 111 is no slouch when climbing, except above 12k. Just to get to 20k where it can fly at its best speed (260-ish TAS), it only climbs 250ft a minute the last few thousand feet.
Again... the He111 is a prime example of a more than adequate bomber that shines when the threat of enemy fighters is minimal.
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Please post the times from sea level to 15k of all three when loaded with their typical bomb load and fuel load.
"Typical fuel load" is quite a vague term. Different players might have different ideas about that. What is a "typical" Lanc loadout ? 25%? 50% Is 75% a 'typical' fuel loadout for the B-29 (for me, it is).
When comparing capabilities, you ideally look to have some standard, in this case to select a fuel loadout that gives roughly equal endurance.
A He-111 with 8x250kg (4,400lbs) and 50% fuel (=1.1h) will climb to 15k in about 21 minutes from SL.
The B-26 (4,000lbs) and 100% fuel (=0.9h) - 15 minutes
Lancaster (14,000lbs), 50% fuel =(1.4h) - ~21 minutes
B-17 (6,000lbs), 50% fuel (=1.2h) - about 17 minutes
B-24 (8,000lbs), 50% fuel (=1h) - ~17 minutes
B-29 (14,000lbs), 50% fuel (=1.4h) - ~18 minutes. Even the heavy 8x2k loadout at 75% fuel (about 2h flight time) takes as much time to reach 15k as the much shorter ranged He-111
I think I can pass on posting Ki-67, G4M or Mossie data ;)
The He 111 is not a good climber for bombers at all, unless you are distorting the comparison by giving it a very light fuel loadout only suitable for very short ranged runs while loading up the other bombers with fuel for a long range mission.
EDIT: Quick time vs altitude chart. 30 minuets of climbing time from seal level
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/timevsalt_zpsd0ed8440.jpg)
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Well, I took it up for a sortie and given how it went I never have to do that again if I don't want to. I can't really comment on how it climbed as I had my infant son on my lap for most of it (I was in F3 view when I put him close to the screen he tried to grab the He111 out of the screen), but just before I reached my target altitude of 15k an La-7 decided to attack me. He 'cat'footed around a lot rather than just coming up my six which allowed me to ping him up a little to no apparent effect, but other than a fuel leak on a drone he didn't hurt me either. Then he dove down and came up sharply from below and took his wing off on one of my planes on his FE, scratch one La-7 and score Karnak's required kill in an He111. I bombed my first target from 15,500ft going full throttle at a whopping 215mph, this thing is SLOW. I'm not sure even a Wellington would be this slow. Just before I reached my second target an Fw190 started climbing to attack me and then I saw the second target was all bombed out so I changed course for a vfield in the hope that I might get lucky and beat the Fw190. No such luck, he bored straight in, not even high enough to get above my rear gondola gun. I pinged him the whole way in for no effect and he blew two of my He111s away. Somebody else I never even saw got the third at the same time.
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Well, I took it up for a sortie and given how it went I never have to do that again if I don't want to. I can't really comment on how it climbed as I had my infant son on my lap for most of it (I was in F3 view when I put him close to the screen he tried to grab the He111 out of the screen), but just before I reached my target altitude of 15k an La-7 decided to attack me. He 'cat'footed around a lot rather than just coming up my six which allowed me to ping him up a little to no apparent effect, but other than a fuel leak on a drone he didn't hurt me either. Then he dove down and came up sharply from below and took his wing off on one of my planes on his FE, scratch one La-7 and score Karnak's required kill in an He111. I bombed my first target from 15,500ft going full throttle at a whopping 215mph, this thing is SLOW. I'm not sure even a Wellington would be this slow. Just before I reached my second target an Fw190 started climbing to attack me and then I saw the second target was all bombed out so I changed course for a vfield in the hope that I might get lucky and beat the Fw190. No such luck, he bored straight in, not even high enough to get above my rear gondola gun. I pinged him the whole way in for no effect and he blew two of my He111s away. Somebody else I never even saw got the third at the same time.
Sounds like a fun flight.
- oldman
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Think it slow as is, wait till you lose an engine. :bhead
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Think it slow as is, wait till you lose an engine. :bhead
It is a great glider though. My lead lost all fuel tanks from a niki attack and both elevators. The niki left with a PW and dead motor. I was gliding without motors for a very long time. He died from the PW when I was still 11000ft up. I bailed the lead and took my other 2 home.
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It's slow, it's armament is crap, it's slow, it's weak, it's slow... need I go on?
It's one of my favored targets because as long as you stay away from the front of the bomber, there is little the guns can do to a P-47 at D500.
I will give it props that it is a great perk farmer. I went out one sortie and landed 10k damage, got 21 perks for it.
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About the 111, no surprises here...
Ok so now do we need a comparable Do-17 next or can we just get the UBER(?) he-177 yet?
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About the 111, no surprises here...
Ok so now do we need a comparable Do-17 next or can we just get the UBER(?) he-177 yet?
Ju188A-1 would be my personal choice. Such a pretty airplane and I'd love the 20mm in the sleek top turret.
Others say Do217 or He177 though.
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Others say Do217 (...)
I would instantly come back for a tour :aok
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Which ones?
The ones in the hangars...with their engines off :D
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Ju188A-1 would be my personal choice. Such a pretty airplane and I'd love the 20mm in the sleek top turret.
Others say Do217 or He177 though.
Do217 did 340 at alt with 8,000ish of bombs
Armement consited of 13mm and 7.7 mm guns
Ju188
did 310 at alt and carried 8,600 pounds of ords with
a defense consisting of 20mm, 13mm, and 7.7mm.
He177 did 351 at alt
carried 13,000 pounds internally and 15,000 if external ords are carried.
Defensive weapons consisted of just 13mm and multiple 20mm guns.
Of the 3, the 217 and 177 would be great additions giving the Luftwaffe wienies a LW medium Humber and a heavy bomber. 177 in particular would be the most survivable due to it's gun placements and the guns that it packs
+1 for each
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/he111.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/he111.jpg.html)
"But but but but but scenarios are a thing to"
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"Typical fuel load" is quite a vague term. Different players might have different ideas about that. What is a "typical" Lanc loadout ? 25%? 50% Is 75% a 'typical' fuel loadout for the B-29 (for me, it is).
When comparing capabilities, you ideally look to have some standard, in this case to select a fuel loadout that gives roughly equal endurance.
A He-111 with 8x250kg (4,400lbs) and 50% fuel (=1.1h) will climb to 15k in about 21 minutes from SL.
The B-26 (4,000lbs) and 100% fuel (=0.9h) - 15 minutes
Lancaster (14,000lbs), 50% fuel =(1.4h) - ~21 minutes
B-17 (6,000lbs), 50% fuel (=1.2h) - about 17 minutes
B-24 (8,000lbs), 50% fuel (=1h) - ~17 minutes
B-29 (14,000lbs), 50% fuel (=1.4h) - ~18 minutes. Even the heavy 8x2k loadout at 75% fuel (about 2h flight time) takes as much time to reach 15k as the much shorter ranged He-111
I think I can pass on posting Ki-67, G4M or Mossie data ;)
The He 111 is not a good climber for bombers at all, unless you are distorting the comparison by giving it a very light fuel loadout only suitable for very short ranged runs while loading up the other bombers with fuel for a long range mission.
EDIT: Quick time vs altitude chart. 30 minuets of climbing time from seal level
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/timevsalt_zpsd0ed8440.jpg)
Those are the loadings I used for my testing as well (all very typical in the MA. Looking at the end result is a better control). I'm I reading the gauges and charts wrong on the 1000+ fpm climb to 12k??? After 12k the He111 really bogs down in the climb, no doubt.
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Those are the loadings I used for my testing as well (all very typical in the MA. Looking at the end result is a better control). I'm I reading the gauges and charts wrong on the 1000+ fpm climb to 12k??? After 12k the He111 really bogs down in the climb, no doubt.
I can't comment on your methodology, I can only present mine:
I load up the bomber I want to test with the loadout in question, make sure that FB is at 2.0 and no wind is set at all. Then I spawn my bomber formation at sea level and start to run film the very moment the wheels begin to roll.
I then use the film viewer to determine height and speed at specific intervals, for bombers that is every 5 minutes. That way I get the actual climbing profile covering time, altitude gained and distance traveled for a specific loadout configuration.
For example the max takeoff configurations of our 4 heavies in AH:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/f9a91bd1.jpg)
or old vs new Lancaster:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/Lancclimboldvsnew_zps44529ea2.jpg)
or some of our medium bombers with comparable fuel & bomb loadout
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/CPcomp_zpsce3cadae.jpg)