Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: mthrockmor on July 09, 2013, 09:26:19 AM
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I've been an active member for about three years. I consider myself a pretty decent member though I tend to get a bit mouthy every now and then. I detest vulching and HOing. I mostly keep to myself as my squad will note. My disclosure.
When I first signed on with AH it seemed very common to have frequent missions and it 'seemed' there was a great deal of squad action. This action seemed to create a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behaviour and excellence. There were strong personalities in the game that lead by both example and voice.
Now it seems we have devolved a bit. We have lost that sense of high expectation, group play and high standard. I am not speaking of the quality of individual sticks but instead the sense of honor within the community. The former seems to be a the concept of noble savage encapsulated in Tarzan. What I am seeing now is nothing more than Lord of the Flies, where a horde of noobs voice the whole.
Am I wrong in this? If I am not, how do we restore a higher expectation within the community?
For starters, the prominence of key squads that set the tone needs to be restored. More than anything this seems to be what we need. It is not easy to build culture out of chaos but I think we need to do this. Possibly a better culture could help us retain the 2-weekers?
Thoughts? [Read: flame on...]
boo
JG 5
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Honor, chivalry, the code ... worst thing that any individual or group pretended existed as a universal standard in the game.
Behaving in a specific manner, as an individual or group, is up to said individual or group. Fine.
Your expectations are yours to keep, realistically or otherwise.
When your specific code leads you to publicly ridicule other players for having different expectations or for falling outside your
expectations then it ceases to serve it's intended purpose. It will actually be more wearisome than the perceived failure of others.
If you want to set a tone ... let the tone speak for itself.
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If you want to set a tone ... let the tone speak for itself.
Wise words.
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If you want to set a tone ... let the tone speak for itself.
This.
If anything deeds, not words will effect change. People can type all day about how people should behave, but it's not going to make a bit of difference if all they're doing is talking about it.
It seems to me the last month or two the amount of venomous bile on 200 has increased a lot for some reason. This place is starting to feel a lot more like other games than it used to.
Wiley.
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I've been an active member for about three years. I consider myself a pretty decent member though I tend to get a bit mouthy every now and then. I detest vulching and HOing. I mostly keep to myself as my squad will note. My disclosure.
When I first signed on with AH it seemed very common to have frequent missions and it 'seemed' there was a great deal of squad action. This action seemed to create a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behaviour and excellence. There were strong personalities in the game that lead by both example and voice.
Now it seems we have devolved a bit. We have lost that sense of high expectation, group play and high standard. I am not speaking of the quality of individual sticks but instead the sense of honor within the community. The former seems to be a the concept of noble savage encapsulated in Tarzan. What I am seeing now is nothing more than Lord of the Flies, where a horde of noobs voice the whole.
Am I wrong in this? If I am not, how do we restore a higher expectation within the community?
For starters, the prominence of key squads that set the tone needs to be restored. More than anything this seems to be what we need. It is not easy to build culture out of chaos but I think we need to do this. Possibly a better culture could help us retain the 2-weekers?
Thoughts? [Read: flame on...]
boo
JG 5
I agree entirely with your post, though it's really been an ongoing problem, with the primary cause of it's continuation and growth being players with the attitudes of the other respondents in the thread. They have no sense of honor in-game, and probably in RL also, their primary excuse or justification being, if there aren't specific rules against these things, it's ok to do them. If you can't exhibit honor in a freaking game, you're damned sure NOT going to exhibit honor in life.
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I agree with the op. There has been a change, and I have said it before. As to the lead by example, that is how we got to where we are. Squads like the V dudes and other bish squads that only touch the fringes of the game and cut corners by using numbers to win the war instear of skill and good game play.
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what's all this "honor" poop? what honor?
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If you can't exhibit honor in a freaking game, you're damned sure NOT going to exhibit honor in life.
This is precisely why they DON'T exhibit honor...it's a game and it doesn't count towards their RL points totals. It's meaningless so they behave meaninglessly.
In game, most want to win with as little risk and exposure as possible. Then claim pwnage. THAT is who they really are...
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what's all this "honor" poop? what honor?
you being a "jarhead" know full well what Honor is :aok
and if you know what Honor is you know it is not a switch that can be turned on or off.......
you ether have Honor or you don't......sad to say most people in AH do not....that is not just a reflection of AH it is the way of the world.
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you being a "jarhead" know full well what Honor is :aok
and if you know what Honor is you know it is not a switch that can be turned on or off.......
you ether have Honor or you don't......sad to say most people in AH do not....that is not just a reflection of AH it is the way of the world.
I disagree. They have differing definitions of honor and when their definition of honor should be applied. Some apply honor in all phases of their lives...others cut and paste it as they see it appropriate. Chances are, they cut and paste character components in RL as they deem it necessary. Not a great model of character consistency...and it could be said, people are only as good as they are at their worst moment. Essentially? If you cross a character line....you're a line crosser. Is having honor in an online game an appropriate environment to apply honor? If you're an honorable person and consistent in RL, probably yes. If not, definitely no.
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One example.
I remember there was a spat of 'alt-f4' answer to every question. How do I drop my landing gear? Alt-f4. How do I get in and out of the bombsite? Alt-f4. How do I change fuel tanks? Alt-f4.
I know there must be some humor in there. So many just giggle like little 10-year olds. On the boards there was a similar discussion and what was agreed by many of the veterans, or adults, is that we would agree to stop the 'alt-f4' hazing. The thought being, a 2-weeker that we need to build our community would be more inclined to leave than stay if they felt hazed.
Every time questions were asked and the answer was 'alt-f4' many of us would chime in with 'don't do it!' Then give them the proper answer. Finally, openly degrade the practice of giving that answer. It has reached a point where I haven't read on 200 the 'alt-f4' answer for months now, and in generally I rarely see it.
This is an example of the culture I'm thinking of.
boo
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I disagree. They have differing definitions of honor and when their definition of honor should be applied. Some apply honor in all phases of their lives...others cut and paste it as they see it appropriate. Chances are, they cut and paste character components in RL as they deem it necessary.
thats not Honor. :old:
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thats not Honor. :old:
That's the point. It's not what YOU or I define as honor. They don't care about our definitions and therein lies the frustrations.
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The two weeker's should only get access to the Training Arena, for two weeks! And during those two weeks they should be lectured and whipped by the trainers till they almost started thinking "it's not worth it" and consider going back to playing Playstation again.
That would put an end to many of the shades too, atleast it would not be as straight forward as it is today.. :rolleyes:
I know it will never happen, but it was a fun to play with the idea anyway. :P
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It seems to me the last month or two the amount of venomous bile on 200 has increased a lot for some reason. This place is starting to feel a lot more like other games than it used to.
Two words: School's Out
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One example.
I remember there was a spat of 'alt-f4' answer to every question. How do I drop my landing gear? Alt-f4. How do I get in and out of the bombsite? Alt-f4. How do I change fuel tanks? Alt-f4.
I know there must be some humor in there. So many just giggle like little 10-year olds. On the boards there was a similar discussion and what was agreed by many of the veterans, or adults, is that we would agree to stop the 'alt-f4' hazing. The thought being, a 2-weeker that we need to build our community would be more inclined to leave than stay if they felt hazed.
Every time questions were asked and the answer was 'alt-f4' many of us would chime in with 'don't do it!' Then give them the proper answer. Finally, openly degrade the practice of giving that answer. It has reached a point where I haven't read on 200 the 'alt-f4' answer for months now, and in generally I rarely see it.
This is an example of the culture I'm thinking of.
boo
Quite true. As tough as this game is to get off the ground, much less aerially proficient, screwing with new people is flabbergastingly boorish and juvenile. So say we all?
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Every time questions were asked and the answer was 'alt-f4' many of us would chime in with 'don't do it!' Then give them the proper answer. Finally, openly degrade the practice of giving that answer. It has reached a point where I haven't read on 200 the 'alt-f4' answer for months now, and in generally I rarely see it.
The sole reason for the disappearance of the alt-f4 joke was the warning message introduced by HT some time ago, so total n00bs didn't fall for it anymore.
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you being a "jarhead" know full well what Honor is :aok
:lol yes i know what honor is. what i'm wondering is what honor is there to be had in toonville? i think some are confusing "decent behavior" with "honor".
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:lol yes i know what honor is. what i'm wondering is what honor is there to be had in toonville? i think some are confusing "decent behavior" with "honor".
why cant you have Honor in a game??????
you would play Chess with Honor wouldn't you?
Honor..... like I said..... is in all things that the one who has Honor does...whether it be in a online game or a business deal......
it is not Honor if it is turned off during a silly online game.
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Honour ( :)) to me implies an element of self-control / restraint / internal set of ethics which is becoming increasingly displaced by the narcissistic & result-centred paradigm.
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Honour ( :)) to me implies an element of self-control / restraint / internal set of ethics which is becoming increasingly displaced by the narcissistic & result-centred paradigm.
dead on except it is.........Honor :neener:
although I think both work :D
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why cant you have Honor in a game??????
you would play Chess with Honor wouldn't you?
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but what exactly would dishonourable chess look like? Other than whining and squeaking if you lose, or browbeating a guy if you beat him...
Honor..... like I said..... is in all things that the one who has Honor does...whether it be in a online game or a business deal......
it is not Honor if it is turned off during a silly online game.
I still disagree with this. It's a game. In the cartoon world, it's a rough game. What I want from the game ideally is enemies that give no quarter and allies that do the same, but are actually interested in fighting the other side. When it happens, it's magic. Unfortunately two sides that are numerous and both equally committed to attack and defense is almost as rare as a good 1v1 these days.
To me, it does your opponents a disservice if you're not doing everything you can to beat them. It's their job not to let you do it.
To go with the chess analogy, it's like a guy accidentally giving you a free shot at his queen, no repercussions, and you don't take it. A victory when the other guy's pulling his punches is meaningless.
Wiley.
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rule #1. don't be a dick
rule #2. See rule #1. nobody likes a dick
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dead on except it is.........Honor :neener:
although I think both work :D
From an old text book;
"We cant have Honour without u." :old:
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It's a silent "u", not an invisible "u". Much like me, I don't say much, but I'm still here.. :devil
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why cant you have Honor in a game??????
you would play Chess with Honor wouldn't you?
Honor..... like I said..... is in all things that the one who has Honor does...whether it be in a online game or a business deal......
it is not Honor if it is turned off during a silly online game.
there you are, confusing decent behavior with honor again. hurting people who are weaker than you, stealing, cheating, etc...are matters of honor, talking smack just because you think you can get away with it is a matter of bad behavior. an honorable person can act like an a-hole, doesn't mean he is dishonorable, he's just an a-hole.
i'm curious as to what is considered to be dishonorable in ah's toonville (aside from cheating).
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I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but what exactly would dishonourable chess look like? Other than whining and squeaking if you lose, or browbeating a guy if you beat him...
I still disagree with this. It's a game. In the cartoon world, it's a rough game. What I want from the game ideally is enemies that give no quarter and allies that do the same, but are actually interested in fighting the other side. When it happens, it's magic. Unfortunately two sides that are numerous and both equally committed to attack and defense is almost as rare as a good 1v1 these days.
To me, it does your opponents a disservice if you're not doing everything you can to beat them. It's their job not to let you do it.
To go with the chess analogy, it's like a guy accidentally giving you a free shot at his queen, no repercussions, and you don't take it. A victory when the other guy's pulling his punches is meaningless.
Wiley.
cheating....
I agree with you as far as we are trying to kill each other in a game....and should play as such....but...... and its a big BUT..... getting the kill at any cost..... ganging one con with 10 or more...vulching for your kills.....PMing Cheat rants or any rant other then to say "good fight".....all dishonorable things....and there are many more then that.
but if someone does not know what Honor is....it does not matter how much or how clear it is spoken out...they will never understand.
there you are, confusing decent behavior with honor again. hurting people who are weaker than you, stealing, cheating, etc...are matters of honor, talking smack just because you think you can get away with it is a matter of bad behavior. an honorable person can act like an a-hole, doesn't mean he is dishonorable, he's just an a-hole.
i'm curious as to what is considered to be dishonorable in ah's toonville (aside from cheating).
I completely disagree...ok not completely but...Honor is truth......if you are being an Ahole talking smack to everyone you are being dishonorable....
Honor whether it be for or AGAINST you.....Facing the Truth...speaking the truth....calling someone out for lame game play IE the 10th con on 1 guy is speaking the truth....its not "smack" talking.....someone who says they are a "fighter" when all they do is stay in the green cloud....calling them for what they are is Truth....
read my sig...THAT is Honor....Honour for you guys over the ocean :neener:
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My thoughts
I understand why vulching and HOing is considered a bad behaviour. To be honest I have done both myself for one reason or another, not proud of it. I understand vulching when a base is being attacked for capture. If you want new players to behave then set an example and remain calm and polite. Angry messages and calling someone a noob will not help imho. I used to read a lot of war stories about WW2 pilots. In books and movies two fighters approaching head to head with guns blazing is often described as an exploit of bravery or normal start of combat.
Do not salute if someone HOd/vulched and you did not have a good fight. If the same player gets you another time in a decent fight salute or send a private message and praise the guy for having a decent fight instead of a head on or something like that.
If someone behaves in a way that is commonly considered bad and you can`t resist texting, explain politely. The community wants to draw in new players, but I think too much is expected from them at first. There are slogans like "best WW2 combat experience online", "free two week trial" on homepage. It can be expected that newcomers jump right into the action without knowing the controls or the arena etiquette. If the two week trial is running it is too late to tell someone to go to the training area etc, because time is running. Many start the trial period unknowingly and want to get the max online experience out of it.
I do not understand one thing.
Some guys as expressed before want frequent missions and squad action that creates a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behaviour and excellence, group play etc. At the same time some squads like the V dudes and others are insulted and said to be using numbers to win the war instear of skill and good game play. How does that come together. You want squad operation and missions, but insult squads and players that do missions.
The crying about the channel 200 is something of a mystery to me. I have never used it and probably never will on the basis of what I have read in the forum. If you do not like what is going on in there, select another channel. There are supposed to be channels 200-299 to choose for chatting with friends from other countries and also an option to send private messages.
In my opinion the experienced guys should review their behaviour first if they want a better gaming culture and retain the trial period players. I have seen some unjustified insults towards newcomers. In the interest of good gaming culture it might be a good idea to use less vox after having one too many refreshment drinks (not a frequent issue).
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Honour for you guys over the ocean :neener:
:salute<S> Ink. :neener:
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:salute<S> Ink. :neener:
:D :cheers:
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BTW, snipers were considered to be less than honorable warriors* even up to the Vietnam War and were sometimes outcast by their own US units. That is until the US saw how efficient Vietcong snipers were to both mortality and morale. Reason: it's not honorable to shoot people who can't defend themselves and don't know they're in danger. Defenseless soldier or defenseless civilian makes no difference. Unconventional warfare and terrorism have loosed the chains of the old honor codes and well they should.
Honor: an abstract notion of respectability, Recogniton, and integrity.
In game, would you be respected, recognized in a positive light, and viewed as someone that plays the game with integrity if you did <insert dumb thing here>?
Vulch? HO? I have no idea but as I said earlier, people's definition of honor will change as they insert dumb things they do into the last part of the question.
*Carlos Hathcock "Whitefeather" by Roy F. Chandler, Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills by Charles Henderson
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cheating....
I agree with you as far as we are trying to kill each other in a game....and should play as such....but...... and its a big BUT..... getting the kill at any cost..... ganging one con with 10 or more...vulching for your kills.....
Agreed on the PM rants. At long last, I finally get the difference between the way you guys look at it and the way I do. To you, ganging and vulching is on par with cheating. To me, it's not. If that's all you do all the time, bad form for sure, but I don't consider it on par with bona fide cheating. While I don't generally go out expressly looking to gang and vulch, if the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense for my side, yeah I will.
From within the context of the game, I just see it as the player's responsibility not to up into a vulch, and not to dive into a cloud of red alone and expect anything other than the obvious.
BTW, snipers were considered to be less than honorable warriors* even up to the Vietnam War and were sometimes outcast by their own US units. That is until the US saw how efficient Vietcong snipers were to both mortality and morale. Reason: it's not honorable to shoot people who can't defend themselves and don't know they're in danger. Defenseless soldier or defenseless civilian makes no difference. Unconventional warfare and terrorism have loosed the chains of the old honor codes and well they should.
My humble opinion on violence in the real world is it shouldn't be used in half measures. If things are at the point where violence is necessary, there's no such thing as overkill.
Wiley.
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*Carlos Hathcock "Whitefeather" by Roy F. Chandler, Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills by Charles Henderson
Now THERE'S a true badass :aok
Honor? There are a lot of honorable people in this game, however hop into the Mains and you will find 6 not-so-honorable stick stirring HO-spraying gangers per every honorable player :D :uhoh
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Common courtesy .... something that has slowly been declining since the invent and anonymity of the sinternet.....
A slow but noticeable decline in social interaction skills due to not having to face and stand up to/by our convictions...many are the newer generation however it is not only...our generation ( I am 40)is also just as bad or worse in some cases... Sad sad side affect of a great tool for information and global contact.
it isn't just in game...but we spend so much time here we notice it
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Agreed on the PM rants. At long last, I finally get the difference between the way you guys look at it and the way I do. To you, ganging and vulching is on par with cheating. To me, it's not. If that's all you do all the time, bad form for sure, but I don't consider it on par with bona fide cheating. While I don't generally go out expressly looking to gang and vulch, if the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense for my side, yeah I will.
From within the context of the game, I just see it as the player's responsibility not to up into a vulch, and not to dive into a cloud of red alone and expect anything other than the obvious.
My humble opinion on violence in the real world is it shouldn't be used in half measures. If things are at the point where violence is necessary, there's no such thing as overkill.
Wiley.
I dont think vulching/ganging is anything close to actual code cheating.......just very pisspoor game play....but I do think if you are taking a field, then vulching is part of that...the vulchers that i don't like are the ones who do it just for kills....a game is about fairness and just shooting people down as they roll is anything but fair....but yes they should roll from elsewhere....
many have no problem with vulching, to me that is on the verge of dishonorable behavior(especially if thats all you do)...and in a game about Combat....
but I also know this is a game and people think it should be played differently...some only care about the war...some only care about the fight...some only care about tanking...bombing...ECT
me I am her for one reason only to kill MFers......but I don't vulch.......I want my opponent to have a chance...killing someone who has no chance is weak to me....and pathetic...but lots of players...that is the only way to get kills...... to me that is no victory at all....same as jumping on a con with 4 or 5 or more :rolleyes: guys already trying to get him....
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I've been an active member for about three years. I consider myself a pretty decent member though I tend to get a bit mouthy every now and then. I detest vulching and HOing. I mostly keep to myself as my squad will note. My disclosure.
When I first signed on with AH it seemed very common to have frequent missions and it 'seemed' there was a great deal of squad action. This action seemed to create a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behaviour and excellence. There were strong personalities in the game that lead by both example and voice.
Now it seems we have devolved a bit. We have lost that sense of high expectation, group play and high standard. I am not speaking of the quality of individual sticks but instead the sense of honor within the community. The former seems to be a the concept of noble savage encapsulated in Tarzan. What I am seeing now is nothing more than Lord of the Flies, where a horde of noobs voice the whole.
Am I wrong in this? If I am not, how do we restore a higher expectation within the community?
For starters, the prominence of key squads that set the tone needs to be restored. More than anything this seems to be what we need. It is not easy to build culture out of chaos but I think we need to do this. Possibly a better culture could help us retain the 2-weekers?
Thoughts? [Read: flame on...]
boo
JG 5
I see missions about as frequently as I used to, either posted or simply done on the fly. Also, HOing and vulching? Really? It's the MA; things happen. Do I get upset when somebody circling above dives down and kills me as I'm taking off? A bit, but not enough to complain. My line of thinking is, I knew there were enemy fighters above, so the chances of at least one of them diving in for a kill were pretty high. No big deal.
Head-on attacks are similar. Again, it's the MA, and people are going to do what they do regardless of anyone's "code". That being said, when I'm engaging an enemy and we're coming at each other face-to-face, I expect to be shot at. So, what do I do? I tend to fire and give either a hard left or hard right on the rudder and pull away. Sometimes, my bullets make contact and it's over in a flash; other times, the snap roll leads to a much longer fight; less frequently, a collision occurs.
Seriously, the rampant squeaking over the HO is ridiculous. Expect it, because it will happen. Failing to expect it leads me to believe those who complain either live in a fantasy land, or wish to do so.
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same as jumping on a con with 4 or 5 or more :rolleyes: guys already trying to get him....
This used to be fun.... but it has got ridiculous ... I remember getting ganged like this but having a fighting chance ( not much but some) as you wouldn't get all the head on front 11-2 front quarter shots ...people used to actually see this going on and refrain a little...these days it seems to be take all and every shot you can....If you managed to actually kill a couple another would take their place but it wasn't every last person jumping on because it was the last red guy to kill.... fun times..but finding this less often...even some squads I used to run into had decorum but have been in a slow decline to the abyss of grot.
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I agree entirely with your post, though it's really been an ongoing problem, with the primary cause of it's continuation and growth being players with the attitudes of the other respondents in the thread. They have no sense of honor in-game, and probably in RL also, their primary excuse or justification being, if there aren't specific rules against these things, it's ok to do them. If you can't exhibit honor in a freaking game, you're damned sure NOT going to exhibit honor in life.
I agree with the op. There has been a change, and I have said it before. As to the lead by example, that is how we got to where we are. Squads like the V dudes and other bish squads that only touch the fringes of the game and cut corners by using numbers to win the war instead of skill and good game play.
This is precisely why they DON'T exhibit honor...it's a game and it doesn't count towards their RL points totals. It's meaningless so they behave meaninglessly.
In game, most want to win with as little risk and exposure as possible. Then claim pwnage. THAT is who they really are...
Some guys as expressed before want frequent missions and squad action that creates a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behavior and excellence, group play etc. At the same time some squads like the V dudes and others are insulted and said to be using numbers to win the war instead of skill and good game play. How does that come together. You want squad operation and missions, but insult squads and players that do missions.
The crying about the channel 200 is something of a mystery to me. I have never used it and probably never will on the basis of what I have read in the forum. If you do not like what is going on in there, select another channel. There are supposed to be channels 200-299 to choose for chatting with friends from other countries and also an option to send private messages.
In my opinion the experienced guys should review their behavior first if they want a better gaming culture and retain the trial period players. I have seen some unjustified insults towards newcomers. In the interest of good gaming culture it might be a good idea to use less vox after having one too many refreshment drinks (not a frequent issue).
"I made up my mind that I was going to play a real man to the best of my ability. I felt many of the western stars of the twenties and thirties were too (gorram) perfect. They never drank or smoked. They never wanted to go to bed with a beautiful girl. They never had a fight. A heavy might throw a chair at them, and they just looked surprised and didn`t fight in this spirit. They were too (gorram) sweet and pure to be dirty fighters. Well, I wanted to be a dirty fighter if that was the only way to fight back. If someone throws a chair at you, hell, you pick up a chair and belt him right back. I was trying to play a man who gets dirty, who sweats sometimes, who enjoys kissing a gal he likes, who gets angry, who fights clean whenever possible but will fight dirty if he has to. You could say I made the western hero a roughneck." - John Wayne
~~~~~
The "What Would John Wayne Do" Test:
Play a real man. Be a real man. Think of it as an easier litmus test than this silly thread. Would John Wayne whine on CH200 that he just got face-shot or vulched? Would he run to the forum in a fit of angst or frustration and start a thread to form a gang to make the other players behave nicer or follow the 'Marquee of Queen's Berries'* rules?
If he was still around and took a liking to this game for a few minutes now and again ... and ... if he bothered to waste time in it typing ... it'd probably take on more of a 'True Grit' feel:
Ned Pepper: What's your intention? Do you think one on four is a dogfall?
Rooster Cogburn: I mean to kill you in one minute, Ned. Or see you hanged in Fort Smith at Judge Parker's convenience. Which'll it be?
Ned Pepper: I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.
Rooster Cogburn: Fill your hands, you (S of a B)!
~~~~~~~
The easier method would be a bit of Tuco's wisdom from 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly' ....
Tuco (Eli Wallach): When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
Well, it works for me.
As for players who don't fill channel 200 with whines or jeers or chest-thumping ego-prancing being part of this game's 'problem' when it comes to 'honor' ... well, that's about as inventive a blame as I've seen so far. :D
"There's a lot of whiners in every crowd."
- R. Lee Ermey
* Marquess of Queensberry rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_rules)
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"I made up my mind that I was going to play a real man to the best of my ability. I felt many of the western stars of the twenties and thirties were too (gorram) perfect. They never drank or smoked. They never wanted to go to bed with a beautiful girl. They never had a fight. A heavy might throw a chair at them, and they just looked surprised and didn`t fight in this spirit. They were too (gorram) sweet and pure to be dirty fighters. Well, I wanted to be a dirty fighter if that was the only way to fight back. If someone throws a chair at you, hell, you pick up a chair and belt him right back. I was trying to play a man who gets dirty, who sweats sometimes, who enjoys kissing a gal he likes, who gets angry, who fights clean whenever possible but will fight dirty if he has to. You could say I made the western hero a roughneck." - John Wayne
~~~~~
The "What Would John Wayne Do" Test:
Play a real man. Be a real man. Think of it as an easier litmus test than this silly thread. Would John Wayne whine on CH200 that he just got face-shot or vulched? Would he run to the forum in a fit of angst or frustration and start a thread to form a gang to make the other players behave nicer or follow the 'Marquee of Queen's Berries'* rules?
If he was still around and took a liking to this game for a few minutes now and again ... and ... if he bothered to waste time in it typing ... it'd probably take on more of a 'True Grit' feel:
Ned Pepper: What's your intention? Do you think one on four is a dogfall?
Rooster Cogburn: I mean to kill you in one minute, Ned. Or see you hanged in Fort Smith at Judge Parker's convenience. Which'll it be?
Ned Pepper: I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.
Rooster Cogburn: Fill your hands, you (S of a B)!
~~~~~~~
The easier method would be a bit of Tuco's wisdom from 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly' ....
Tuco (Eli Wallach): When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
Well, it works for me.
As for players who don't fill channel 200 with whines or jeers or chest-thumping ego-prancing being part of this game's 'problem' when it comes to 'honor' ... well, that's about as inventive a blame as I've seen so far. :D
"There's a lot of whiners in every crowd."
- R. Lee Ermey
* Marquess of Queensberry rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_rules)
John Wayne had no test. He had a code he lived by:
"I'd rather be dead and cool....than alive and uncool"
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Speaking of the good ol' days; what ever happened to child labor camps?
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John Wayne had no test. He had a code he lived by:
"I'd rather be dead and cool....than alive and uncool"
It's your (our) test. Not his. And that definitely ain't a quote that would bring you closer to John Wayne's philosophy. It's going to be such an interesting conversation with you when you try to explain your version of truth, honor and reality to me at Cavanaugh and the Londoner. :aok :D
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It's your test. Not his. And that definitely ain't a quote that would bring you closer to John Wayne's philosophy. It's going to be such an interesting conversation with you when you try to explain your version of truth, honor and reality to me at Cavanaugh and the Londoner. :aok :D
Obviously I've struck some kind of cord with you which began as me being a smart donut and ended up with you being just short of a stalker. I know well and good that John Wayne never said that and I know well and good that anyone that is a fan of John Wayne knows he didn't say that. In point of fact, that is a line from Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man. But having read several books and his biography, I believe he would have used that line in jest or earnest. That's how I feel about it...and die as you might, you don't really get to tell anyone how to feel.
Know this. I have no intention of defending, explaining or justifying anything to you. I'm going because I'm curious to see if there is actually any substance behind the facade, is there any depth to the person or is he just someone that's bored, Googles quotes, pictures, and quickly skims Wikipedia to try to de-lie folks to look impressive to BBS members that don't really give a damn. That will be interesting to see but a battle of wits? I feel real comfortable in the outcome should you choose that path.
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Obviously I've struck some kind of cord with you which began as me being a smart donut and ended up with you being just short of a stalker.
Huh. Talk about a struck chord. What's with the self-flattering paranoia about us disagreeing in yet another thread?
I know well and good that John Wayne never said that and I know well and good that anyone that is a fan of John Wayne knows he didn't say that. In point of fact, that is a line from Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man. But having read several books and his biography, I believe he would have used that line in jest or earnest.
Mneh. ;)
That's how I feel about it...and die as you might, you don't really get to tell anyone how to feel.
'Die' as I might? (Huh. Freudian, I guess.)
As girly as that sounds, who's telling you how to feel, Francis? :D
Know this. I have no intention of defending, explaining or justifying anything to you. I'm going because I'm curious to see if there is actually any substance behind the facade, is there any depth to the person or is he just someone that's bored, Googles quotes, pictures, and quickly skims Wikipedia to try to de-lie folks to look impressive to BBS members that don't really give a damn. That will be interesting to see but a battle of wits? I feel real comfortable in the outcome should you choose that path.
Well, I'm all about your comfort. :aok
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10 bucks you two will be making out within the first hour of meeting each other. I'm sensing the "frustration". :banana:
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10 bucks you two will be making out within the first hour of meeting each other. I sensing the "frustration". :banana:
Well, I can't change what he believes, yaknow. (You, either.) :D
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
what most of you call a Ho I call a John Wayne merge,fly straight in guns ablazing!
Oh ya be a man and shoot me in the back!!!
A much wiser man than me once said treat others the way you want to be treated,or something to that affect. If everyone just did this simple little thing AH would be a much better place.
I all but gave up flying in the mains because of PM's and vox rants,when a player tuned to me and started a triad of words I'd never say infront of my mother I said that's it. Lucky for me there is FSO and the TA and someone not so bright decieded I'd make some type of trainer so I hung around!
These days when I do fly in the mains it's with JG11 and I almost never talk on range,with a few exceptions to say hey to old friends.
Where am I going with this,good question as I'm not sure except to say if everyone treat others as they wished to be treated then AH would be a much better game!
Will it end the Ho's,ganging,vultching or win the war at all cost,no because that's been around since day 1 but they way players treat each other has change a lot over the years and that change hasn't been a good one!!!
:salute
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I do not understand one thing.
Some guys as expressed before want frequent missions and squad action that creates a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behaviour and excellence, group play etc. At the same time some squads like the V dudes and others are insulted and said to be using numbers to win the war instear of skill and good game play. How does that come together. You want squad operation and missions, but insult squads and players that do missions.
What the V dudes did ... as well as the Alchemist and other large squads did was to take large numbers of unskilled players and rolled base after base. This works very well as there is no way to stop such a large group. Players are not going together and sit in a tower 30+ strong in the off chance they will be in a position to intercept a mission. Even if only 10 of those 30+ hit their target you can make it work. Had the V dudes or any other large group used tactics and split their forces to try and take 2 or more bases at the same time, there would have been chance to defend in some places and maybe stop one prong of the attack, or more if the defensive side could get organized quick enough.
Having a "chance" draws people into the battle. Always being over whelmed by numbers causes players to stop defending (or attacking if the attack force is the one being over whelmed) and in frustration, quit. It's no fun being crushed all the time, on top of that, it gets boring wining all the time with out opposition and so again we lose players. The "honorable" and classy thing to do is to make mission fun for both sides. It is a game and we are all here to have fun right?
Agreed on the PM rants. At long last, I finally get the difference between the way you guys look at it and the way I do. To you, ganging and vulching is on par with cheating. To me, it's not. If that's all you do all the time, bad form for sure, but I don't consider it on par with bona fide cheating. While I don't generally go out expressly looking to gang and vulch, if the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense for my side, yeah I will.
From within the context of the game, I just see it as the player's responsibility not to up into a vulch, and not to dive into a cloud of red alone and expect anything other than the obvious.
My humble opinion on violence in the real world is it shouldn't be used in half measures. If things are at the point where violence is necessary, there's no such thing as overkill.
Wiley.
I wouldn't say it's like cheating, but I would say it is like poor play.
Look at it this way. NFL no longer has a cap and one team buys up all the best players. Now they win every game including the Super Bowl. While it isn't cheating, it is hardly fair. But hey, it's only a game. How long would the NFL last? how long before all those fans start watching hockey instead?
This game can easily be looked at much the same way. If your always in the horde no body ( or very few) are going to want fight against you so you have less fun as there are fewer targets. Or if your on the other side you get frustrated (especially newer or less skilled players) of always looking for a fight and mostly only finding the horde to go against. While it's not the "hordes" (or those players that are making up the horde) responsibility to ensure others have fun in this game wouldn't it make sense that if they showed a bit of class, or honor it could help make things better all around?
Is it honor that makes me look down at 5 guys chasing a single con and say "naw, I'll hold off and wait for the next guy". Is it honor when I see a lone guy flying along and I tell my wingman "you get him I'll fly high cover". I don't know, but I think it makes it more fun for all involved.
What can be done? I don't know, it may be too far gone to be brought back with out some major help. Maybe HTC is going to have to step in with a few rules to "guide" game play beck to a more "player friendly" state.
When I first started there were players that you looked up to. You knew who the better fighters were, the guys who ran the best missions and so on. They were helpful and considerate. They had no problem teaching you how to fight, plan, bomb, or execute any of those. Today we have braggarts, chest thumpers, and general A holes creating a toxic playing arena. It is surprising any new players stay after their 2 weeks are up.
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Look at it this way. NFL no longer has a cap and one team buys up all the best players. Now they win every game including the Super Bowl. While it isn't cheating, it is hardly fair. But hey, it's only a game. How long would the NFL last? how long before all those fans start watching hockey instead?
This game can easily be looked at much the same way.
No offense but I'm not buying this analogy ... although I do understand the feeling behind it.
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No offense but I'm not buying this analogy ... although I do understand the feeling behind it.
What don't you "buy" about it? It's an analogy and paints the picture of what we have doesn't it? An overwhelming, unstoppable team continuing to crush all opposition. The effects and out come would surely be the same. Lose of interest and people leaving.
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What don't you "buy" about it? It's an analogy and paints the picture of what we have doesn't it? An overwhelming, unstoppable team continuing to crush all opposition. The effects and out come would surely be the same. Lose of interest and people leaving.
I don't buy that things are designed to be unfair in the game. If anything, things are designed to be completely fair in AHII. What you're describing is unfairness by design. Circumstance is another thing. We've all logged on when circumstances created more of a challenge at one time or another. Maybe even an 'insurmountable' one (depending on what your 'fun goal' was and how other players impacted it).
But driving away player base because of said circumstance? This game would have died many deaths since Beta if that were the case.
Having said that ... I love your cartoon commentaries (very much so):
Such as:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/gameevolved.jpg)
I think such creativity and sense of humor would go much farther than what other players are apparently frustrated into doing. I only wish more of the player base could see them.
That leaves behaving like grown-ups.
:salute :cheers:
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This game can easily be looked at much the same way. If your always in the horde no body ( or very few) are going to want fight against you so you have less fun as there are fewer targets. Or if your on the other side you get frustrated (especially newer or less skilled players) of always looking for a fight and mostly only finding the horde to go against. While it's not the "hordes" (or those players that are making up the horde) responsibility to ensure others have fun in this game wouldn't it make sense that if they showed a bit of class, or honor it could help make things better all around?
It's the open world aspect of the game that is both its best feature and its worst feature. You can do whatever you want, for good or ill. Personally I love it because I can create whatever situation I want for myself either by upping into the vulch at a base take attempt, or taking off from the next base over to try to have more of an effect when I get there, or porking the base they're coming out of to hamper them.
Occasionally it turns into whackamole because they're moving too fast, but in my experience sometimes you've got enough people doing the same thing you're doing to make it fun.
It seems to me what a lot of people are looking for is a clearly defined goal that they can accomplish quickly, and some means of having a 'fair fight' enforced by the game. That's just not the way this game is set up. That's more Counterstrike style gameplay.
When I first started there were players that you looked up to. You knew who the better fighters were, the guys who ran the best missions and so on. They were helpful and considerate. They had no problem teaching you how to fight, plan, bomb, or execute any of those. Today we have braggarts, chest thumpers, and general A holes creating a toxic playing arena. It is surprising any new players stay after their 2 weeks are up.
I went through my total newb phase in WBs, getting help from the kind of players you describe here. In relative terms, I started to notice the same thing happening over there, and figured if it was getting like that over there, I may as well have a better game to play while the chest thumpers thump so I came here. Not sure how I'd have wound up if I'd started here cold.
What don't you "buy" about it? It's an analogy and paints the picture of what we have doesn't it? An overwhelming, unstoppable team continuing to crush all opposition. The effects and out come would surely be the same. Lose of interest and people leaving.
It's not so much the horde is unstoppable, it's that people aren't willing to put in the effort to form a cohesive defense. Sometimes the right people arrive in enough numbers and a good battle ensues. Most of the time most people don't bother. Not enough people are willing to play defense because unlike football, defense does not win you anything here.
P.S. *snrk* hadn't seen that cartoon before... :rofl
Wiley.
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why cant you have Honor in a game??????
you would play Chess with Honor wouldn't you?
Honor..... like I said..... is in all things that the one who has Honor does...whether it be in a online game or a business deal......
it is not Honor if it is turned off during a silly online game.
ink neither is killing a new guy or a guy with 1/10 the skill of yours time after time. what honor is that? is there honor in flying in a 262 low on the ground picking guys off? is there honor in flying lancs so high up just to get a #1 rank? is there honor staying just outside of a field picking guys off and pretending that is not vulching?
we all have different definitions of what honor is. not saying you are without honor but it's childish that in a pretend game we also pretend to be more honorable than the other player.
we are all here to have fun, we arent samurai in training trying to learn the bushido code. and if I can go in a ho you and we both laugh about it then that's what the game is about.
semp
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ink neither is killing a new guy or a guy with 1/10 the skill of yours time after time. what honor is that? is there honor in flying in a 262 low on the ground picking guys off? is there honor in flying lancs so high up just to get a #1 rank? is there honor staying just outside of a field picking guys off and pretending that is not vulching?
we all have different definitions of what honor is. not saying you are without honor but it's childish that in a pretend game we also pretend to be more honorable than the other player.
we are all here to have fun, we arent samurai in training trying to learn the bushido code. and if I can go in a ho you and we both laugh about it then that's what the game is about.
semp
He actually brings up a good point, I have no honor :uhoh :eek:
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ink neither is killing a new guy or a guy with 1/10 the skill of yours time after time. what honor is that? is there honor in flying in a 262 low on the ground picking guys off? is there honor in flying lancs so high up just to get a #1 rank? is there honor staying just outside of a field picking guys off and pretending that is not vulching?
we all have different definitions of what honor is. not saying you are without honor but it's childish that in a pretend game we also pretend to be more honorable than the other player.
we are all here to have fun, we arent samurai in training trying to learn the bushido code. and if I can go in a ho you and we both laugh about it then that's what the game is about.
semp
I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....
Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)
Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth
I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....
same with Honor.
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I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....
Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)
Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth
I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....
same with Honor.
So, are we talking about the characteristic 'honor' or a 'code of honor?'
Some players think outnumbering other players is dishonorable. Are they right or wrong? Is there a specific ratio that determines the back and white right or wrong since one can't be more right or more wrong at any given moment? Some players think a head-on attack is wrong. Air Warrior coded a forward cone area in relation to each aircraft that reduced damage taken. Hitech (Dale) opted not to. Are players that 'take advantage' of such right .... or wrong? Was Dale wrong? (I don't think so.) Some players think vulching is wrong. Others think re-upping endlessly from a base covered in red icons is foolish. Right, wrong or foolish?
Maybe the ideal of honor is pure but the codes vary.
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A guy told me tonight that our fight was the funnest and cleanest he's had in a long time. I thought that was cool :cool:
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I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....
Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)
Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth
I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....
same with Honor.
I totally agree with you. but this is not real life, it's a cartoon game that we play for fun. how we play is not a representation of what we are. if this was a representation of what we are then most of us wouldnt play it as we would think that killing, somebody just because we can, is wrong. we dont play this game to defend family, god and country. we play it to have fun and joke around.
semp
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I am only gonna comment on what is in red.....
Honor is not something that can be reevaluated....if 2 people have different opinions on what Honor is....one is wrong.(of course that is if one actually knows what Honor is)
Honor is integrity in the face of opposition...standing up for what is right.....truth
I dont believe the whole hype that "right" and "wrong" is how one looks at it.....
same with Honor.
how far back in human history would you like look at to test your theory? :D
at several points in time, some peoples considered genocide to be an "honorable" practice. at another point in time, indentured servitude and/or outright slavery were considered "honorable". at several points in time it was "honorable" to send 10,000 men into battle against a village of several hundred. there was the period of history where some peoples considered it "honorable" to commit suicide. during world war 2 it wasn't dishonorable to drop thousands of tons of bombs on civilians, repeatedly...or vaporize 2 cities full of women and children with atomic bombs.
perspective sir, perspective.
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So, are we talking about the characteristic 'honor' or a 'code of honor?'
Some players think outnumbering other players is dishonorable. Are they right or wrong? Is there a specific ratio that determines the back and white right or wrong since one can't be more right or more wrong at any given moment? Some players think a head-on attack is wrong. Air Warrior coded a forward cone area in relation to each aircraft that reduced damage taken. Hitech (Dale) opted not to. Are players that 'take advantage' of such right .... or wrong? Was Dale wrong? (I don't think so.) Some players think vulching is wrong. Others think re-upping endlessly from a base covered in red icons is foolish. Right, wrong or foolish?
Maybe the ideal of honor is pure but the codes vary.
well lots a questions......
I am not capable of explaining it any better then I have.....
I totally agree with you. but this is not real life, it's a cartoon game that we play for fun. how we play is not a representation of what we are. if this was a representation of what we are then most of us wouldnt play it as we would think that killing, somebody just because we can, is wrong. we dont play this game to defend family, god and country. we play it to have fun and joke around.
semp
no........I don't play for "fun" never have.......I play to kill people and not go to prison....I have "fun" killing people.....
that is fact.... never have I said anything different.....although as time went by I have become more about a great fight.....but I still want that kill.
my personal Honor wont allow me to Kill at all costs....even though I want to kill him/her I don't want an "easy" kill I want to earn my kills or at the minimum...make them work for my death.
how far back in human history would you like look at to test your theory? :D
at several points in time, some peoples considered genocide to be an "honorable" practice. at another point in time, indentured servitude and/or outright slavery were considered "honorable". at several points in time it was "honorable" to send 10,000 men into battle against a village of several hundred. there was the period of history where some peoples considered it "honorable" to commit suicide. during world war 2 it wasn't dishonorable to drop thousands of tons of bombs on civilians, repeatedly...or vaporize 2 cities full of women and children with atomic bombs.
perspective sir, perspective.
all those things listed (except seppuku) are far from Honorable.
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how far back in human history would you like look at to test your theory? :D
at several points in time, some peoples considered genocide to be an "honorable" practice. at another point in time, indentured servitude and/or outright slavery were considered "honorable". at several points in time it was "honorable" to send 10,000 men into battle against a village of several hundred. there was the period of history where some peoples considered it "honorable" to commit suicide. during world war 2 it wasn't dishonorable to drop thousands of tons of bombs on civilians, repeatedly...or vaporize 2 cities full of women and children with atomic bombs.
perspective sir, perspective.
:huh
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even though I want to kill him/her I don't want an "easy" kill I want to earn my kills or at the minimum
isnt somebody less skilled than you an easy kill? you can justify it by saying that you have practice numerous times to earn it. but an easy kill is still an easy kill?
but what you do has nothing to do with honor but more for desire on how to play the game.
semp
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To me, the environment seems about the same over the years (very fun), but I was never much involved in MA missions or deeply involved in squad activities, so I wouldn't know if that aspect has changed. Late nights are a bit low on number of players -- I hope that picks back up if our economy can get growing well again (I have a lot of opinions about that).
The feeling that "it's just not the same as it was back in XXXX" is one that people often get after they've been around for some years. This was the case in Air Warrior, too. People in 1993 thought that it just wasn't the same as it was back in 1990. People in 2000 thought that it just wasn't the same as it was back in 1995. And so on. I think that what really happens is that, while things overall are mostly like they were (or better than they were), the part of the player base familiar to any given player eventually drifts off over time, and so for that player, camradery etc. seem to fade.
But think of it. If this process were really true, given that online flying started in 1988 and that comments like the above started several years later, whatever you personally think of as The Golden Times would never even have been there (unless your golden times were 1988, of course).
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isnt somebody less skilled than you an easy kill? you can justify it by saying that you have practice numerous times to earn it. but an easy kill is still an easy kill?
but what you do has nothing to do with honor but more for desire on how to play the game.
semp
Far to the east ruled the Samurai, mystic warrior class Honorable brave, dark armored man, donning hideous mask 700 years of reigning Japan, the masters of attack Dominators of the isle of dragons, fearsome military caste
In battle no prisoners for the enemy, noble self-sacrifice Crooked crowns sentenced to die, pay the bloody price Sacred rites held close by the fighters, no place for disgrace Taught to stand with dignity while staring in death's face
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their pride
Gracefully, with steady hand He takes the dagger that lays before him Collects his thoughts for the last time And plunges the dirge from left to right
No sign of pain on his face With the final, cut withdraws the blade Loyal companion by his side Lifts the sword to help him die Lightning flash, one swift blow Honor is done, warriors head rolls
In a mans glory, his spirit is stored, his very being inside Dignity respected, courage is shown by his ritual suicide No room for dishonor in Hari Kari's dagger gashing side to side Under the rising sun, the core is exposed, to reveal a new life
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their pride
FLOTSAM AND JETSAM - NO PLACE FOR DISGRACE
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Where is the honor in shooting someone in the back? After all, in a fighter engagement, fighter pilots are taught to maneuver so that their best chance of winning the engagement by positioning themselves on the bandits six, or the prefered method to bounce an unaware bandit.
Remember the phrase, "Beware of the Hun in the Sun".
ack-ack
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I don't buy that things are designed to be unfair in the game. If anything, things are designed to be completely fair in AHII. What you're describing is unfairness by design. Circumstance is another thing. We've all logged on when circumstances created more of a challenge at one time or another. Maybe even an 'insurmountable' one (depending on what your 'fun goal' was and how other players impacted it).
But driving away player base because of said circumstance? This game would have died many deaths since Beta if that were the case.
Having said that ... I love your cartoon commentaries (very much so):
Such as:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/gameevolved.jpg)
I think such creativity and sense of humor would go much farther than what other players are apparently frustrated into doing. I only wish more of the player base could see them.
That leaves behaving like grown-ups.
:salute :cheers:
I didn't say anything about it being designed unfair, neither in the game nor my analogy. The NFL and the game of football is unchanged in the analogy, all that change was was one team took advantage of a loop hole and so became the dominate force. The design of the game never changed. The is why they added a cap system to football, so a team couldn't become the overwhelming force. That way there was still challenge and skill required as well as an and out come to games that was NOT written in stone.
In our game what you or I or Wiley find fun or available in this game is not what we are talking about here. "WE" all know where to look for the fun. We know what we are getting into when we up at a vulched field, of the chances or the fight being gone if we up a field over. The newbs on the other hand don't KNOW these things. We have learned them after years of playing the game. They on the other hand are here more than likely for 2 weeks and figure out only that the dar bars are were the action is. Going there they are either crushed by overwhelming numbers, of are in the horde and spend their time chasing a single con around with 20 other guys. Neither much fun, and one very frustrating. How long do you think they will try it out?
Now look at a few tweaks in game play. Longer fronts with many smaller battles. Same number of players but with the forces both defense and attack spread out there are more targets to go around. There is a chance the defenders will push back the attack....not just slow it down a bit. The attacks have to learn new skills and so find variations in game play, dive bombing turns to level bombers that launch 20 minutes ahead of the fighters to arrive at the same time to coordinate the attack. GV's spawning in to help suppress the field. Higher alt fights because buffs have fighter support at alt. Now planes the are hanger queens are used more. All could come about by forcing the break up of hordes, or adding incentives to lure players away from horde style play to a more tactical/strategic type of game play. How many people would stay on after their 2 weeks to play this game?
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Do not salute if someone HOd/vulched and you did not have a good fight. If the same player gets you another time in a decent fight salute or send a private message and praise the guy for having a decent fight instead of a head on or something like that.
This is excellent advice.
- oldman
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I didn't say anything about it being designed unfair, neither in the game nor my analogy. The NFL and the game of football is unchanged in the analogy, all that change was was one team took advantage of a loop hole and so became the dominate force.
"NFL no longer has a cap and one team buys up all the best players."
For one team to 'buy up all the best players' the dynamic of the draft (which, essentially is a part of the game) would have to eliminate the rotating bid, allowing that team to unfairly monopolize by just being the first to pick and keep on picking.
That makes it a bad analogy. Neither the Bishops, the Knights or the Rooks have a monopoly on either the most or the best players. Nor do specific squadrons. The dynamics of this game, good or bad, are player driven.
I'm sure more than one player didn't stay in the game after 2 weeks of 'bad experiences.' I'm sure more than one did. And they could even have been the exact same experiences. That's where patience, character and maturity come in - whether we're talking about the two-weeker or the 520-weeker.
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"NFL no longer has a cap and one team buys up all the best players."
For one team to 'buy up all the best players' the dynamic of the draft (which, essentially is a part of the game) would have to eliminate the rotating bid, allowing that team to unfairly monopolize by just being the first to pick and keep on picking.
That makes it a bad analogy. Neither the Bishops, the Knights or the Rooks have a monopoly on either the most or the best players. Nor do specific squadrons. The dynamics of this game, good or bad, are player driven.
I'm sure more than one player didn't stay in the game after 2 weeks of 'bad experiences.' I'm sure more than one did. And they could even have been the exact same experiences. That's where patience, character and maturity come in - whether we're talking about the two-weeker or the 520-weeker.
Ya lets go there. You don't have a leg to stand on so you are grasping at straws.
I didn't say anything about a draft. Any player in and sport is able to go where ever he/she wants as long as they are NOT under contract. So In my analogy ALL players just happen to be out of contract and so sign with one team. Happy now? :rolleyes:
There is nothing wrong with my analogy. The only problem with it for you is it seems to hit a little too close to the truth. I said that one "team" has an overwhelming force. In our game they aren't even all that skilled. What they lack in skill (best players) they more than make up in numbers. The point still is as a newbi your either crushed by the horde, or join one and soon get bored being the 10th guy in on a single con. Sure some few get past that and learn that there are other ways to play and leave the hordes behind. But what is that ratio? How many leave compared to how many stay? As the numbers of the arena populations seem to be dropping, I'm guessing more leave than stay.
I'm sure they are not leaving because this game is just too darn much fun.
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Ya lets go there. You don't have a leg to stand on so you are grasping at straws.
<snip>
There is nothing wrong with my analogy.
<snip>
The only problem with it for you is it seems to hit a little too close to the truth.
<snip>
I'm guessing more leave than stay.
<snip>.
Whoa. Whether I agree that your analogy is a good one or not, I'm not sure where all this 'leg to stand on/grasping at straws/close to the truth' emotional rant is coming from. Did you feel like I was somehow trying to pick a fight with you? Like I said, I like your cartoon commentaries and I certainly didn't expect you to come unhinged over something as mild as this. No, seriously. This surprised me. But we can certainly agree on one thing. I agree that you're guessing.
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My thoughts
Do not salute if someone HOd/vulched and you did not have a good fight. If the same player gets you another time in a decent fight salute or send a private message and praise the guy for having a decent fight instead of a head on or something like that.
+1
This is just the way I play.
But I must however add that I might not be able to salute everyone after every good fight I have, if I am constantly busy fighting I might simply forget to throw out the salutes.. :rolleyes:
But as a general rule I don't give out salutes to people that kill me sitting on the runway or shoot me straight off the merge. But I don't get hoed much anymore when I think about it, I simply learned how to avoid the head on by giving them a hard angle at me so if they make the shot it is actually worth the salute.. :lol
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Far to the east ruled the Samurai, mystic warrior class Honorable brave, dark armored man, donning hideous mask 700 years of reigning Japan, the masters of attack Dominators of the isle of dragons, fearsome military caste
In battle no prisoners for the enemy, noble self-sacrifice Crooked crowns sentenced to die, pay the bloody price Sacred rites held close by the fighters, no place for disgrace Taught to stand with dignity while staring in death's face
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their pride
Gracefully, with steady hand He takes the dagger that lays before him Collects his thoughts for the last time And plunges the dirge from left to right
No sign of pain on his face With the final, cut withdraws the blade Loyal companion by his side Lifts the sword to help him die Lightning flash, one swift blow Honor is done, warriors head rolls
In a mans glory, his spirit is stored, his very being inside Dignity respected, courage is shown by his ritual suicide No room for dishonor in Hari Kari's dagger gashing side to side Under the rising sun, the core is exposed, to reveal a new life
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their
Honor even in death, soldiers glorified The dagger plunges deep, slashes side to side Honor even in death, disgrace is defied The end they never fear, give their life before their pride
FLOTSAM AND JETSAM - NO PLACE FOR DISGRACE
When you see this in person it's very messy, not romantic, especially if you don't have a kaishakunin to put an end to the whole thing quickly. No romance, no heroic anything. Just a dead person in a big pool of blood.
This is a kiddy game, not grown men selling a romantic image of slitting your own guts to prove how stupid you are.
So are talking about junshi, seppuku, or harakiri? All schools in japan teach a gokyo of which one is the junto. You learn to be the kaishaku and perfect your kubikiri. Not like anyone has commited seppuku in modern times since Yukio Mishima. Most schools in japan and america have a cleaned up copy of his last video. Some make it required watching by deshi to take the romantic BS out dying since it's permanent.
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[
Am I wrong in this? If I am not, how do we restore a higher expectation within the community?
For starters, the prominence of key squads that set the tone needs to be restored. More than anything this seems to be what we need. It is not easy to build culture out of chaos but I think we need to do this. Possibly a better culture could help us retain the 2-weekers?
[/quote]
Key squads?
Gibberish again!
Big egos who think they are better than everyone else :old:
I remember my first two week the guy know who he is followed me around for 20 minutes check sixing me and he was a top stick :old:
There is nothing up with the Knights its you who has the problem :old:
Jayro does missions and Chris and the other Prussians do good base taking events all the time :old:
I am awesome as well!
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What the V dudes did ... as well as the Alchemist and other large squads did was to take large numbers of unskilled players and rolled base after base. This works very well as there is no way to stop such a large group. Players are not going together and sit in a tower 30+ strong in the off chance they will be in a position to intercept a mission. Even if only 10 of those 30+ hit their target you can make it work. Had the V dudes or any other large group used tactics and split their forces to try and take 2 or more bases at the same time, there would have been chance to defend in some places and maybe stop one prong of the attack, or more if the defensive side could get organized quick enough.
hmm alchemist have #1 rank fighter pilot they seem like nice guys help out other bish squads and can roll maps at will they have taken a break at base rolling 4 a few days and wacthed the rook horde maps oh but they dont horde lol :salute
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there is no way to stop such a large group.
3-5 friends (that fly with each other enough that it's mostly all muscle memory) in 262s + discipline. You slow down the swarm by disrupting it, and/or hunt their goons and/or manage to find their mission maker's rhythm and nail em on next mission take off (opinion: it's better to hit at TO than RTB.. RTB will pump their righteousness, TO rather makes em feel pwnt). The 262's speed allows this easily.
It doesn't take long for many of the swarm to get sick of it.. When someone shows up in jets you've got a good fight on your hands, that if you and your friends play right (discipline) can stay mostly out of reach of those "unskilled" swarmers even right under their noses.
If nothing else, delaying the swarms by interference gives the rest of the team more time to ready defense.
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Horde is stopped straight away when you move to another base and don't up to pad their score :old:
Same people in game are always there to defend bases and those in for the score keep well away :old:
You pay your $15 and play your game.
How many good sticks have gone because they stopped having fun and went for the score :rofl
Inks gibberish about the Japanese cutting each others heads off and killing themselves when they fell off their horses and felt embarrassed made me laugh :rofl
They were blood thirsty savages who treated their own with contempt :rofl
"Your cruel to your own before your cruel to others"
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Most People avoid taking on the horde and the few that try to defend are overwhelmed. If you take down the strats and disable front line Ords you will decrease the enemy's ability to make an attack. They will have to up from farther away allowing defense to intercept. It's your 14.95 and you play the way you wish but don't complain about Horde when you are just dogfighting all day and asking others to do the dirty work for you.
Country before self? There are some that are interested in the strategy of the game and the war taking out important targets. Most resources in WW2 were devoted to affecting the Enemies ability to make war. :aok
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The louder you argue that things have changed, the more you prove they are the same.
HiTech
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:old:
:)
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The louder you argue that things have changed, the more you prove they are the same.
HiTech
I could be wrong, but I'd be pretty confident in saying if you took a look at the 200 log for a week of US primetime evenings from say, November last year and then took a look at the 200 log at the same times for the last week, you'd notice a marked difference.
Maybe it's all in my head, but I don't think so.
Wiley.
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I could be wrong, but I'd be pretty confident in saying if you took a look at the 200 log for a week of US primetime evenings from say, November last year and then took a look at the 200 log at the same times for the last week, you'd notice a marked difference.
Maybe it's all in my head, but I don't think so.
Wiley.
Of course when you add in the Midway Effect it ensures things have gotten worse
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Of course when you add in the Midway Effect it ensures things have gotten worse
that's giving him too much credit
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There is camraderie, fun, honor, challenges, teamwork and good sportsmanship every time I fly.
There are really good squads here and really good people here and really good gameplay here too.
What you see are the vocal few that cannot be ignored because or their intrusive interaction. They make sure we all know they are here and they demand your attention.
Then there are squads like JG11, the one I am in, lead by Stampf. What? You don't hear about us much? There is a reason for that. We let our conduct represent us, not our mouth.
I truly belive the majority of the players are good but they whisper when they speak and are drowned out by others constantly yelling.
Lastly, my signature, "Wag more, bark less". It doesn't say wag all the time, or never bark. It leads you to the idea of being better, not being perfect.
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Of course when you add in the Midway Effect it ensures things have gotten worse
Heh. He's been around a lot longer than that, but I'm not even thinking of him as I squelch him on sight. It just seems lately, and even before school let out, that it's gotten uglier on 200.
Wiley.
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The louder you argue that things have changed, the more you prove they are the same.
HiTech
I think so, too: :aok
To me, the environment seems about the same over the years (very fun) . . .
The feeling that "it's just not the same as it was back in XXXX" is one that people often get after they've been around for some years. This was the case in Air Warrior, too. People in 1993 thought that it just wasn't the same as it was back in 1990. People in 2000 thought that it just wasn't the same as it was back in 1995. And so on. I think that what really happens is that, while things overall are mostly like they were (or better than they were), the part of the player base familiar to any given player eventually drifts off over time, and so for that player, camradery etc. seem to fade.
But think of it. If this process were really true, given that online flying started in 1988 and that comments like the above started several years later, whatever you personally think of as The Golden Times would never even have been there (unless your golden times were 1988, of course).
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that's giving him too much credit
For me, yes, for the part of the 200 community that responds to him, It's right on the money
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What? You don't hear about us much? There is a reason for that. We let our conduct represent us, not our mouth.
What sort of conduct do you believe is representative??
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I cut back on flying so much because I find it hard to get a decent heart pounding dogfight. I know I can hook up with the beast sticks in their DA parties but that's not the point, I would rather organically find a fight in MA with different terrain and fight setup. 1v1 over and over in the DA improves 1v1 acm and aircraft control. But not actual fighting skill.
I just miss that tense moment of seeing a singular dot on the horizon, and suddenly his icon appears, its a fighter... he is looking for you and you are looking for him. Merge... fight on.
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I cut back on flying so much because I find it hard to get a decent heart pounding dogfight. I know I can hook up with the beast sticks in their DA parties but that's not the point, I would rather organically find a fight in MA with different terrain and fight setup. 1v1 over and over in the DA improves 1v1 acm and aircraft control. But not actual fighting skill.
I just miss that tense moment of seeing a singular dot on the horizon, and suddenly his icon appears, its a fighter... he is looking for you and you are looking for him. Merge... fight on.
what's wrong with 2 or 3 guys taking on 2 or 3 other guys? or maybe a couple of guys taking on 4 or 5 others? those can be just as nail biting as a 1v1.
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what's wrong with 2 or 3 guys taking on 2 or 3 other guys? or maybe a couple of guys taking on 4 or 5 others? those can be just as nail biting as a 1v1.
Furballs can be very good fun when the numbers are about even, not exactly nail biting though.
I had the joy of finding a lone 109G14 in my K4 yesterday, we could have gone 1v1 but alas because the G14 is a girl he calls in 5 friends.
Funny thing after was one of the 5 said shortly after on 200 about it being a furball where I had been mauled to pieces by 5 desperate 'rapists'. (Very odd indeed)
The G14 did apologise after for calling in so many, but stroking my ego saying I was "too good" to justify bringing in semp and his goons, was just a lame as the act itself.
I saw this in another thread by said G14 pilot;
there are enough cherry pickers and dog pilers, don't add to the problem.
Asking 5 to jump me while I'm fighting you... Hate to point this out to you;
Thou art part of the problem gyrene :old:
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Furballs can be very good fun when the numbers are about even, not exactly nail biting though.
I had the joy of finding a lone 109G14 in my K4 yesterday, we could have gone 1v1 but alas because the G14 is a girl he calls in 5 friends.
Funny thing after was one of the 5 said shortly after on 200 about it being a furball where I had been mauled to pieces by 5 desperate 'rapists'. (Very odd indeed)
The G14 did apologise after for calling in so many, but stroking my ego saying I was "too good" to justify bringing in semp and his goons, was just a lame as the act itself.
I saw this in another thread by said G14 pilot;Asking 5 to jump me while I'm fighting you... Hate to point this out to you;
Thou art part of the problem gyrene :old:
:lol hey old man, i said i was sorry... :rofl never said anything about it being a "furball", i said it was fun and i just had to call in help because you were too good for me to get you. had you dead to rights 3 times and i couldn't shoot you down, then you would pull a high g maneuver and i lost sight of you every time only to see you coming at me again with what looked to be a perfect deflection shot. i was low on ammo (i can't shoot for poop) and when someone asked if i needed help, i gave the green light. from what i was able to see, there was 6 of us in the air and only 2 others fired at you before you went down.
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In my opinion, things changed when AOL moved from an hourly rate to an unlimited rate. It was an expensive 'hobby' back then, and seemed to really entice more diehard warbird buffs who wanted to be immersed into the Walter Mitty-esqe experience of fighter jock or bomber pilot.
It wasn't exclusive or elitist, but the community was different.