Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: moot on July 10, 2013, 08:11:44 AM
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Added a new autopilot mode that attempts to maintain the same relative position to your designated wingman (using the .wingman dot command) when it is first engaged. It is not intended through any hard maneuvers and it has a maximum range of 1000 yards. The default key for this command is Control W. NOTE: This function may be unmapped in your keymap requiring you to manually map it. It is under the flight section of the key mapper listed as Autopilot Wingman Mode.
Why did no one think of that one 10 years ago? :D
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Already made good use of it. Very useful for bombers.
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Yep. Last time I flew a strat raid, had a few squad member's with me. I just formed up (one was EXTREMELY new to AH, the other just couldn't figure out how to get it to work) on lead and used the wingman formation mode. Not once ever jumped into the bombardier when we made our drop. It netted me 4k to his 6. :x I could have probably landed closer to his if I hadn't had the delay set poorly. :bhead
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I imagine it would be useful for missions. Heavy fighters could form up on a lead bomber, and drop at his mark. Reduce the dependence on poorly defended, show aircraft.
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Already made good use of it. Very useful for bombers.
Dang. I didn't think of if that way. :aok Sounds great to protect each other from fighters. Thanks!
:salute 27th
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OMG I attacked 3 sets of lancs flying this way and gunners were waiting for me. After 2 passes from extreme angles the concentrated gunfire shredded my plane and I barely landed bloody and missing many parts. This is a cool feature for bombers to survive.
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OMG I attacked 3 sets of lancs flying this way and gunners were waiting for me. After 2 passes from extreme angles the concentrated gunfire shredded my plane and I barely landed bloody and missing many parts. This is a cool feature for bombers to survive.
It is harder for fighters to use this feature and make coordinated passes at the bombers. :D
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The POTW via Fish42 made excellent use of this the first week it came out. I think he or someone has films. We all drop ord on his "mark" and then come around for some low-level death star passes. It is redunkulous the lethality we were having against fighters when only one of us had to think about flying the aircraft.
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<S> Moot...good to see ya sir :aok
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It is harder for fighters to use this feature and make coordinated passes at the bombers. :D
Not really, if you're used to the old bomber drone leashes and not breaking them, the only new "trick" is not flying at 100% throttle. The lead/wingman needs to be aware of what they're doing and never throttle above 99%, or else he'll start loosing his followers.
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You're welcome. :D
Why did no one think of that one 10 years ago? :D
Ehh, back then the lack of evolution in the game wasn't as noticeable. Ten years later and it's a tad glaring.
Seems there's something to this formation stuff huh Arlo :D
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OMG I attacked 3 sets of lancs flying this way and gunners were waiting for me. After 2 passes from extreme angles the concentrated gunfire shredded my plane and I barely landed bloody and missing many parts. This is a cool feature for bombers to survive.
Me :devil
<S> they were good passes, but 54x303s firing at you is not healthy!
I made the mistake of passing too low over the city and most of my formation got hammered. See you land with 5 kills from that lol.
The POTW via Fish42 made excellent use of this the first week it came out. I think he or someone has films. We all drop ord on his "mark" and then come around for some low-level death star passes. It is redunkulous the lethality we were having against fighters when only one of us had to think about flying the aircraft.
:devil Do you remember that B-17 group that took off and I took all 21 bombers of our group to chase them.
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:devil Do you remember that B-17 group that took off and I took all 21 bombers of our group to chase them.
He never did return my salute or love letters. :frown: :cry
(I don't know what was funnier, the instant vaproisation of his first two drones, or that all 7-8 of us gunners simultaneously stopped shooting the moment after slicing the vert stab off his last bomber and let him tumble down to earth slowly rather than shorten his suffering. )
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Me :devil
<S> they were good passes, but 54x303s firing at you is not healthy!
I made the mistake of passing too low over the city and most of my formation got hammered. See you land with 5 kills from that lol.
:salute <S> was happy just to land. awesome gunning :rock
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Why did no one think of that one 10 years ago? :D
M00t! <S>
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WARNING! Do not try to use this in an NOE mission. I tried to use it in my 47 to hold formation with the lancs and was turned into a submersible. If the lancs were going faster it may have worked. They were just too slow and my plane was constantly dropping its nose when i engaged the auto pilot.
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<S> Mbailey, BJ, hey guys :D
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I was wondering how long it will take till we see large auto-formations of bombers. While it is a nice convenience for fighters, it lowered the skill requirements of buff pilots even lower then they were toned down already. 4 bomber players in formation have turned into 1 pilot, 12 drones and 3 gunners.
So what has a wingman bomber left to do on a strat run?
Formation flying? No.
Bombsight calibration? No - not even the super easy method we have now. Release on leader command.
Gunnery? meh.. if you miss with the 12*0.5s from your three drones, one of the other wingmen flying effortlessly 10 feet off your wing with their own 12*0.5s will get it.
There is absolutely no reason to get a gunner now. Previously if two players wanted to join forces they could either double the number of bombers at the cost of high workload, or take one formation and one joins as a gunner. Now they can take two formation and fly as pilot+gunner at the same time.
Just to make this clear, this feature does not radically change the game. It just takes even less skill to be a bomber "pilot" (i.e. a drone owner in tow) than it ever did. I would have recommended to enable this feature for bombers only if no drones were selected - but no one will hear of it anyway.
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it lowered the skill requirements of buff pilots even lower then they were toned down already.
Riiiiight, because we should forget that one guy has to do the job of 10 RL guys and that, in AH, buffs are easy meat at any alt under 25k.
Just to make this clear, this feature does not radically change the game. It just takes even less skill to be a bomber "pilot" (i.e. a drone owner in tow) than it ever did. I would have recommended to enable this feature for bombers only if no drones were selected - but no one will hear of it anyway.
You're probably right, no one will hear of it now because from what I hear, bombing and flying formation has actually become a little more realistic and fun.
Pros:
-true to life
-a better experience for people wanting historic feel
-a better, more challenging experience for attacking fighters.
-tougher targets for fighters
-a great tool for new players
This feature eliminated the arbitrary task overload that masqueraded as "pilot challenge." So maybe now REAL challenges can be written into the game like for example "real strategic conflicts"
It offers some level of success and survivability for new players who have no hope of getting good at flying fighters for years. It is win/win no matter how you look at it.
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Riiiiight, because we should forget that one guy has to do the job of 10 RL guys and that, in AH, buffs are easy meat at any alt under 25k.
Lets see:
- co pilot: talk to yourself?
- radio operator: talk smack on ch200 while gunning and bombing?
- navigator: need help clicking on "Esc" to raise the clipboard?
- bombardier: "just gotta hold this Y key for 3 more seconds and I am done for the day!"
- 5 gunners: "guys! connect to my targeting network computer to slave your guns to mine! oh yes, you 10 gunners in the other 2 drones too!"
- pilot: "Take off successful, auto formation engaged. Wake me up when back on final approach"
= 10 guys.
Sorry, you were right.
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One of the coolest things I've ever been involved in during my 13-odd years in AH: OddCaf and APDrone organized a mission of like 20 sets of Bostons---got everyone's ducks all nice and lined up.....in ONE pass, must have put a bomb in every square foot of a medium base...EVERY single destroyable object was erased (in ONE pass) from existence under a pile of brownish holes :rofl :rofl :rofl. I can envision formations of B29's (40 500 pounders PER plane) keyed to one guy via that command doing similar :aok
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I have yet to try those feature in bombers. I use it when afk or to have a smoke on fighter sweeps. But please elaborate on bombing? Are you saying iy automatically calibtares based on lead bomber?
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That's how it was done in ww2.....there was prolly only one guy in every group who could find the ocean starting at the beach parking lot. They just went same speed and heading, dropped at the same time as the leader. I'm hoping to give this concept a whirl tonite (assuming it's already in place?) Before I have to leave again for another week
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Its alot of fun got to say!
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/queenslander2/Lanc_mission_Attacked_Mossie_1_zpsfe1fe921.png)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/queenslander2/Lanc_mission_Attacked_Mossie_2_zps3a3a7223.png)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/queenslander2/B26_mission_zps09109d95.png)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/queenslander2/SteelRain_zps3a140803.png)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/queenslander2/B17s_Lowpass_1_zpsff7cd962.png)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/queenslander2/B17s_Lowpass_2_poor_red_guy_zps070540a6.png)
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VERY cool :aok (A thought entered my noggin:)
Scenario A: 7-8 sets of bombers/fighters '.wingman' the lead guy......---meaning, they will all be within 1000 yards of him?
Scenario B: Player 1 is A flight leader, 5 guys '.wingman' HIM....ONE of THOSE guys is B flight leader...and 5 MORE guys '.wingman' HIM....could you overlap them that way, to have the formation spread out further, yet still ultimately be controlled by Player 1?
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Lets see:
- co pilot: talk to yourself?
What does this have to do with anything?
- radio operator: talk smack on ch200 while gunning and bombing?
another pointless comment?
- navigator: need help clicking on "Esc" to raise the clipboard?
So you're saying the game is overly simplified. debatable.
- bombardier: "just gotta hold this Y key for 3 more seconds and I am done for the day!"
And again, neither one of these comments has anything to do with formation flying, just bombing in general. You can pile all the complaints you want to on top of this ONE feature, it's not going to make your argument any more valid.
- 5 gunners: "guys! connect to my targeting network computer to slave your guns to mine! oh yes, you 10 gunners in the other 2 drones too!"
Yea, I think you're on to something. Let's make the game more challenging with only ONE GUNNER with ONE GUN to protect the formation. That would be SOOOOOOO realistic and historically accurate. :rolleyes:
- pilot: "Take off successful, auto formation engaged. Wake me up when back on final approach"
Should we make players do manual take off and formation for each bomber? That would be more challenging.
Here let me remind you of the ones you don't understand or won't admit to because you want to win an argument.
-Trying to line up on target and drop your bombs while defending/gunning against fighters.
-Flying the plane, avoiding mountains, navigating, etc. etc. while defending/gunning.
-helping new players with a steep learning curve.
-Increasing survivability for buffs.
And more.
You don't seem to have any good argument against this. How does this negatively affect your game or anyone else's?
Sorry, you were right.
Yes I was.
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I have yet to try those feature in bombers. I use it when afk or to have a smoke on fighter sweeps. But please elaborate on bombing? Are you saying iy automatically calibtares based on lead bomber?
No. If you want to calibrate, you'll still have to do it yourself. Otherwise it falls on formation and the lead bombardier to make accurate drops. If your formation is crap and/or lead is dropping for his own gain, then the results will be crap.
Why people are complaining about gunning eludes me though. You'd think that I'm gunning for EVERYONE in the formation. You can't drop from the gunner chair, which I whole heartily agree with. You have to jump to the pilot seat or bombardier seat to drop your ords. You will have to STAY there until ords are gone (if you salvo'ed them) or until you've pickled them all off yourself BEFORE jumping back into a gunner chair. So there is still a point (unless you can net a gunner during drop) where you are just nice and straight set of target drones for attacking fighters. I had made a wish on this; http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,350909.0.html ; but seem to have taking a bit of flak on the issue.
I could do formation from the gunner seat, readjusting when necessary (which hardly happened with good lead). If lead knew what he was doing when starting bomb run, I could just stay put even during bomb drop, so no calibration either. It really isn't detracting anything, and hasn't affected what I do when I'm not lead. If anything, it's slowing the bombers down so they can maintain formation. One of the common complaints I kept seeing here is that bombers were flying too fast. With the wingman mode, you HAVE to slow it down or you disrupt and lose your formation. So it's easier for fighters to come on up for some fun. :aok
As for takeoff and using the command, nope. One thing you can't really do is that. Your plane rocks it's wings when on climb out, which WILL cause you to fall behind. Lead slowing down only allows your rocking plane to keep up but use up more fuel as the autopilot will have to add power to compensate for the rocking. So yeah, if you want to do it properly, you'll have to fly your plane to target alt. Only AFTER target alt is reached and lead drops throttle would using the command really come to play. So no sleeping on climb out. :lol
The mode doesn't prevent gunner's from joining either, and if anything, will remain the same as before in this case. Before you'd still adjust to lead while in guns all the while having a gunner yourself helping keep an eye out. Hmmm... :headscratch: Using with the wingman mode.... :headscratch: Gave me an idea! :D
VERY cool :aok (A thought entered my noggin:)
Scenario A: 7-8 sets of bombers/fighters '.wingman' the lead guy......---meaning, they will all be within 1000 yards of him?
Scenario B: Player 1 is A flight leader, 5 guys '.wingman' HIM....ONE of THOSE guys is B flight leader...and 5 MORE guys '.wingman' HIM....could you overlap them that way, to have the formation spread out further, yet still ultimately be controlled by Player 1?
Yes. Must stay within 1000 of "wingman" to maintain formation. I do not know if your B scenario will work. I don't see why it wouldn't though and will be worth a shot. :)
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Muzik ... you were wish listing for 24 plane formations with one player.
This is better.
Isn't it?
:D :aok
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Why did no one think of that one 10 years ago? :D
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,293052.0.html
I actually had the formation command wish in a couple threads (one of which was a request fro the 38 droop snoot to enable fighter bombing formations :rock)
The vast majority of people thought it was a bad idea... 1 out of 15 people who expressed a clear opinion during the thread above. (Hey ya'll! :ahand :neener:)
I'm glad you like it, I know I do :)
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Got a chance to try this in FSO yesterday, it might just be me, but after turning it on, the joystick, (inside the cockpit, not my physical one) started vibrating, after a min or so, the airframe started an oscillation that was quite nasty, turned it off straight away.
The person i'd set as wingman was in the same aircraft and on autoclimb.
I must check my calibration and deadzone, but I never have spiking issues in normal play (stick is a Warthog), has anyone else seen this?
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Muzik ... you were wish listing for 24 plane formations with one player.
This is better.
Isn't it?
:D :aok
Ah yes. I was wondering when you or any of the other nay sayers were going to try and back pedal somehow. I dont recall you ever commenting on this concession.
You in effect denied the whole idea had any appeal or value and now that it's showing some appeal or success, you want to ride on the tail of an idea you didn't even comment on with your THEORY that the other idea was excessive.
The answer is no. The way it is now is a decent concession. It's not better.
Instead of logging in to have the experience you choose to have when you want to have it, you have to wait until 20 other guys are in agreement.
Not to mention if what some say is true, that everything added to this game is only about improving fighter combat, then this way is another drain on that goal because more of those guys could be flying fighters attacking or defending those formations... or getting into dogfights in the process.
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Its a handy feature but it needs work. Was trying to wing up to someone last night and the 47 I was flying was rocking around like it was flying inside a tornado. I couldn't remain on wingman mode as it was doing my head in.
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Are those who disapprove of the bomber consequences only a vocal minority? Cause I'd have thought most players would get hard about such dense target environment.
Myself I mostly remembered all the times squaddies and I had to screw around to get perfectly accurate alt-x heading to climb out together. Not so much combat maneuver-slaving.
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Its a handy feature but it needs work. Was trying to wing up to someone last night and the 47 I was flying was rocking around like it was flying inside a tornado. I couldn't remain on wingman mode as it was doing my head in.
I found this happens if your flying with someone who ping is high and your over 400 from the wingman. Close up and get close to their speed before you hit Ctrl W. if your close the plane holds steady with minor drifts and throttle changes.
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I found this happens if your flying with someone who ping is high and your over 400 from the wingman. Close up and get close to their speed before you hit Ctrl W. if your close the plane holds steady with minor drifts and throttle changes.
This could be it, my wingman was playing over a 4G wireless connect, will try it again with someone with good ping, thanks Fish :)
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Ah yes. I was wondering when you or any of the other nay sayers were going to try and back pedal somehow. I dont recall you ever commenting on this concession.
You in effect denied the whole idea had any appeal or value and now that it's showing some appeal or success, you want to ride on the tail of an idea you didn't even comment on with your THEORY that the other idea was excessive.
The answer is no. The way it is now is a decent concession. It's not better.
Instead of logging in to have the experience you choose to have when you want to have it, you have to wait until 20 other guys are in agreement.
Not to mention if what some say is true, that everything added to this game is only about improving fighter combat, then this way is another drain on that goal because more of those guys could be flying fighters attacking or defending those formations... or getting into dogfights in the process.
You're attempting to take credit for:
Great thinking points guys...
I like the idea of large bomber formations. It's always been more fun for a noob player such as myself to be amidst a group of buffs as I felt safer and I had help from other players.
I'm not certain on which approach is better for the game. Increasing single formation numbers, or that ability to group buffs 3-4 players into a single flying formation using dot commands to latch to a lead player. As fun as it would to see the 24 bufffs in my own formation, defending it myself would be difficult and allowing others (gunner/observers/ OR A.I.) to defend me would make the attacking very difficult. As with any game, balance must be striven for.
:rock Great Discussion!
When you're idea was:
The current string of threads about bombers, 163s and strats got me thinking about an old suggestion.
Large bomber formations
Implementation...
A bomber takes off and is followed in succession just as currently modeled, only with 23 drones to compose a formation. The bomber pilot must circle the base for the (historically accurate) form-up within a specified radius. Failure to do so results in lost drones. Drones take off at realistic intervals.
Once drones have formed up, pilot may proceed to target. Which brings me to a secondary and also previously requested suggestion.
AI gunners for the formation.
Implementation...
AI gunners within a formation have varied skill levels with the better gunners placed in the most critical guns. AI gunners can fire in multiple directions against multiple attackers. Players can choose to take any position or none at all.
Perhaps AI skill levels can improve with longevity. For example, Each bomber in the formation is numbered; if bombers 12 and 19 continue to survive missions and better yet acquire kills on those missions, the AI skill level on those aircraft increases to a realistic level, not to the uncommon levels that can be seen in AH.
Validation for large formations...
- Complaints that the recent wind changes make bombing too difficult.
- Complaints it's hard to find fights.
- More bang for the buck.
- Reduction in unrealistic maneuvering.
- Complaints that 163s deter bomber pilots from participation
- New player benefits
The complaints I've seen about bombing accuracy after the wind change seemed to be a knee jerk reaction related to scores. Regardless, the ridiculously accurate results bombers have been getting for years should never be brought back. Combined with the more realistic randomness of bomb hits, large formations will produce more realistic bombing experience and results. The novelty of a change like this would probably placate any lingering wind worries.
A single fighter that attacks a single bomber formation is potentially provided with more entertainment with no increase in player population. The bomber pilot survives to rtb more often, the fighter pilots get more kills and spends less time looking for fights, etc.
This is especially important on late nights when Euro players may be getting less game for the same dollars spent by US players. Additional arguments can be made along this line.
With 24 bombers, the ability for a formation to endure the less realistic, hard maneuvers that can be seen in game should be reduced along with the gamey factor. Formations would have to make longer, wider turns if they choose to make second passes on the same base.
The odds of success for the bomber pilot increase as the risk to all fast moving attackers increases with more risk of collision or random hits by AI gunners.
New players will have better success in shorter periods of time and enjoy a feature that is not found in any other sim that I am aware of. Additional advantages described below.
Validation for AI gunners...
- New players and learning curve.
- Fighters have an unfair advantage against bombers even if they have 2 gunners.
- Bombers shouldn't be such easy prey and unprotected from multiple fighters from multiple directions.
- Bomber mission inadequacies.
New players have enough of a learning curve without learning to gun from a bomber. A certain amount of success is required early on or only the most devoted or motivated will stay. An inexperienced player may not even have the skill to land for months let alone get kills. Doesn't have to be easy mode, but there should be a little more chance.
Always been this way, fighters are at an advantage until the gunner positions are mastered and that is not too common.
Again, it's unrealistic and an unfair advantage when two or more fighters hit bombers from multiple directions.
Even when players gather enough to build large missions, they rarely have the cohesiveness to stay in a tight formation where they might provide mutual fire support.
BRING IT ON FLAMERS. :D
Seriously? Kinda sad, man. :lol
Ok, I'm with you on this.
Heh goofball. :aok
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I found this happens if your flying with someone who ping is high and your over 400 from the wingman. Close up and get close to their speed before you hit Ctrl W. if your close the plane holds steady with minor drifts and throttle changes.
Tanks Mr Fish ..
Definitely an awesome thing for the bomber guys :)
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What does this have to do with anything?
another pointless comment?
So you're saying the game is overly simplified. debatable.
And again, neither one of these comments has anything to do with formation flying, just bombing in general. You can pile all the complaints you want to on top of this ONE feature, it's not going to make your argument any more valid.
Yea, I think you're on to something. Let's make the game more challenging with only ONE GUNNER with ONE GUN to protect the formation. That would be SOOOOOOO realistic and historically accurate. :rolleyes:
Should we make players do manual take off and formation for each bomber? That would be more challenging.
Here let me remind you of the ones you don't understand or won't admit to because you want to win an argument.
-Trying to line up on target and drop your bombs while defending/gunning against fighters.
-Flying the plane, avoiding mountains, navigating, etc. etc. while defending/gunning.
-helping new players with a steep learning curve.
-Increasing survivability for buffs.
And more.
You don't seem to have any good argument against this. How does this negatively affect your game or anyone else's?
The "job of 10 people" is just plain excuse. You dont do the job of the CO-pilot, the navigator and the radio operator. Your job as bombardier is simplified into the ground level, and now lower still by dropping on command from the lead. Your job as a gunner is one person in a hive of slave gunners. Now, you are not even the pilot of your 3 planes ship - you outsource this job to another person. This is a flight "sim" in which you are not required to fly your plane.
"-Trying to line up on target and drop your bombs while defending/gunning against fighters."
How is this different from a fighter-bomber? they too need to do all this at once. Even more, if they are forced to defend they will not get to bomb at all. So yes, in a sense they do not need to defend and bomb at the same time.
"-Flying the plane, avoiding mountains, navigating, etc. etc. while defending/gunning."
Same as any other plane.
"-helping new players with a steep learning curve."
OK, I'll give you that much. Bombers are what all new players default to when they get frustrated with flying fighters. Not entirely sure that this feature will advance them in any significant way.
"-Increasing survivability for buffs."
Is this good or bad? The low survivability of buffs is a myth. There are 3 bombers per player versus 1 fighter per player. To achieve parity, the K/D of fighters vs. bombers should be 3/1. Last tour the overall K/D of B17G was 0.4, most of the kills were by fighters I assume. It is even better than 1:3 and bombers are often flown in a very stupid way to suicide missions or carpet bomb a single GV.
As I said, this will not make or break the game. It is a small feature. However, this is another stepping stone on the way to make this game less and less of a flight sim and stupidify the game. Does anyone in this game appreciate a good bomber pilot? is there such a thing, beyond being a good gunner? I find it hard to point out a good bomber pilot when there is less and less skill involved in it. Now even formation flying is not part of the required skill set.
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You're attempting to take credit for:
When you're idea was:
Seriously? Kinda sad, man. :lol
Heh goofball. :aok
Buuzz
And, wrong again. Im taking credit for the idea dubious was referring to from the previous page...
Oh look, I even foretold the answer to your erroneous presumption about which is best. :D
Now that I think about it, there is another way to implement my idea without using large drone formations. A command that slaves any bomber to a lead aircraft and keeps all players in nice formations that leaves one pilot to worry about navigation and everyone else to defense.
I think it would be a great compromise but it still wouldn't be as good as using drones. Drones are a population multiplier that increases action/activity for everyone. There is no question other than what programming or server challenges it presents and I see little of either without a huge increase in subscriptions.
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Buuzz
And, wrong again. Im taking credit for the idea dubious was referring to from the previous page...
Oh look, I even foretold the answer to your erroneous presumption about which is best. :D
Here, man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism .... for your own good. :D
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Got a chance to try this in FSO yesterday, it might just be me, but after turning it on, the joystick, (inside the cockpit, not my physical one) started vibrating, after a min or so, the airframe started an oscillation that was quite nasty, turned it off straight away.
The person i'd set as wingman was in the same aircraft and on autoclimb.
I must check my calibration and deadzone, but I never have spiking issues in normal play (stick is a Warthog), has anyone else seen this?
I've had this happen when I would try to engage the autopilot straight away after getting to the desired distance from my wingman. It seems to be much smoother if you manually wing up, stabilize the E states, and then engage the autopilot.
Lag is always present and may influence the bouncy stick syndrome, but since I started doing the above it seems to work as advertised.
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Try flying with a wingman and both of you set the auto formation on each other. The result is hilarious. :D
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Try flying with a wingman and both of you set the auto formation on each other. The result is hilarious. :D
I've wondered bout that. Is there a constant auto-fight for wingman slot? :t
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The "job of 10 people" is just plain excuse. You dont do the job of the CO-pilot, the navigator and the radio operator.
After briefly looking over your entire response I have to warn you, this is not going to end well for you because this comment was about the ONLY thing you get right.
"10 people" was an EXAGGERATION. You caught me. It's only, 2 to 5 jobs that we often get stuck trying to do simultaneously.
Your job as bombardier is simplified into the ground level, and now lower still by dropping on command from the lead.
NOBODY cares how easy bombing is in this discussion. It has NOTHING to do with formation flying. It is a separate subject. WHYYYYYYYYYYYY you say? Because if it mattered to you at ALL, it would bother you just as much when you jumped from pilot to gunner, to bombardier or to F3. But I haven't seen your wishlist post demanding F3 be eliminated or locking pilots in their seats so that they have to "fly the plane in a flight simulator."
No, that's not what you are doing, you are dumping on a completely independent feature and suggesting throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Your job as a gunner is one person in a hive of slave gunners.
Another irrelevant point, what do you suggest we could do to protect bombers without this feature? Should we have just one machine gun available at a time?
It sounds like you don't like the idea of flying into bomber formations because you get shot at by too many guns. I got news for you, that's how it was in the war.
"-Trying to line up on target and drop your bombs while defending/gunning against fighters."
How is this different from a fighter-bomber? they too need to do all this at once. Even more, if they are forced to defend they will not get to bomb at all. So yes, in a sense they do not need to defend and bomb at the same time.
HELLO??? "fighter/bomber" = FIGHTER+bomber = FIGHTER fighterrrrrrrr I'm not even going to waste anymore time on this one.
"-Flying the plane, avoiding mountains, navigating, etc. etc. while defending/gunning."
Same as any other plane.
They are not the same. Other planes are NOT heavy bombers.
Heavy bomber pilots cant do 6g turns or pull a trigger on the yoke and shoot down FWs and 51s. Heavies generally don't point the nose at the ground and drop in a dive or have the ability to outrun attackers.
"-Increasing survivability for buffs."
Is this good or bad?
Good, and you just conceded to just one of the reasons. New players need some success or they could just give up.
The low survivability of buffs is a myth.
Hogwash. Even really good bomber pilots will be toast if a vet catches them low. In this game, the odds have always been on the fighters.
As I said, this will not make or break the game. It is a small feature. However, this is another stepping stone on the way to make this game less and less of a flight sim and stupidify the game.
This is a step to a more realistic experience. It allows large formations to stay together and actually have a fighting chance at defending themselves.
It LOOKS AND FEELS like ww2. Something that most new players have always expected to see when they first try games like these.
The less this game resembles what people generally know of WW2, the more of their first reactions to the game is going to be disappointment however slight that may be. Not a good first impression regardless of how short sighted they are. This feature is good business.
If hitech gets it in gear, large formations could lead to large groups of fighters being compelled to fly to target with the bombers as escort, large groups of enemy fighters being compelled to defend the target, and the resulting dogfights deep over enemy territory.
If they create an imperative for bombers to attack and destroy certain targets, then there is an imperative for fighter combat. Once you see these kinds of changes then you will see more "appreciation for good bomber pilots."
Does anyone in this game appreciate a good bomber pilot? is there such a thing, beyond being a good gunner? I find it hard to point out a good bomber pilot when there is less and less skill involved in it. Now even formation flying is not part of the required skill set.
I find it hard to believe that you think the ability to jump back and forth from gunner to pilot seat qualifies someone as a good bomber pilot.
If you want to create a challenge for bomber pilots, ask hitech to get rid of the little icon on the map that shows you where you are and your direction at all times. THAT'S a pilots challenge!
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Here, man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism .... for your own good. :D
Baby gazelles shouldn't wonder into open fields like that. Narc tigers don't give a diddly about public opinion. It's dinner time.
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Baby gazelles shouldn't wonder (wander) into open fields like that. Narc tigers don't give a diddly about public opinion. It's dinner time.
Yip yip yip yip yip yip yip
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9834/c18a.jpg)
:aok
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(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9834/c18a.jpg)
:aok
Looks like the message is sinking in even if your picture is distorted by your bruised ego. Keep coming pic boy. :t
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Looks like the message is sinking in even if your picture is distorted by your bruised ego. Keep coming pic boy. :t
Narcissism
Traits and signs
- An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
- Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
- A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
- Difficulty with empathy
- Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
- Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
- Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
- Haughty body language
- Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
- Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
- Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
- Pretending to be more important than they really are
- Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
- Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
- Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
- Denial of remorse and gratitude
Narcissistic personality disorder
Symptoms
- Takes advantage of others to reach own goals
- Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
- Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
- Envies others and believes others envy him/her
- Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
- Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
- Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
- Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic
Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:
- Believing that you're better than others
- Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
- Exaggerating your achievements or talents
- Expecting constant praise and admiration
- Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
- Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
- Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
- Taking advantage of others
- Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
- Being jealous of others
- Believing that others are jealous of you
- Trouble keeping healthy relationships
- Setting unrealistic goals
- Being easily hurt and rejected
- Having a fragile self-esteem
- Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional
Treatment
Clinical strategies are outlined by Heinz Kohut, Stephen M. Johnson and James F. Masterson, while Johns discusses a continuum of severity and the kinds of therapy most effective in different cases. Schema Therapy, a form of therapy developed by Jeffrey Young that integrates several therapeutic approaches (psychodynamic, cognitive, behavioral etc.), also offers an approach for the treatment of NPD. It is unusual for people to seek therapy for NPD. Unconscious fears of exposure or inadequacy often cause defensive disdain of therapeutic processes. Pattern change strategies, over a long period of time, are for the narcissist to work on increasing their ability to become more empathetic in everyday relationships. To help modify their sense of entitlement and self-centeredness schema is to help them identify how to utilize their unique talents and to help others rather than for their own personal gain. This is not going to change their self-perception of their "entitlement" feeling but more so help them empathize with others. Another type of treatment would be temperament change.
Anger, rage, impulsivity and impatience can be worked on with skill training. Medication can also be an effective addition if needed. Anxiety disorders and somatoma dysfunctions are prevalent but the most common would be depression. Medication can be extremely beneficial when treating the disorder with regular therapy. Medications to help reduce impulsivity, depression, and anger (along with skilled training) will help the person create interpersonal relationships, be less impulsive, be less angry, and treat the depression/anxiety.
Group treatment has its benefits as the effectiveness of receiving peer feedback rather than the clinician’s may be more accepted, but group therapy can also contradict itself as the patient may show "demandingness, egocentrism, social isolation and withdrawal, and socially deviant behavior." Relationship therapy stresses the importance of learning and applying four basic interpersonal skills: "effective expression, empathy, discussion and problem solving/conflict resolution." Marital/relationship therapy is most beneficial when both partners participate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
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Another cut and paste attempt at making a point
(http://files.sharenator.com/intredasting_Things_a_psychologist_told_me_about_girls_pics_on_the_net-s685x567-145147-580.jpg)
Arlo + google search =
(http://www.superscholar.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/best-online-psychology.jpg)
leading to
(http://rlv.zcache.com/during_the_day_i_dress_up_psychology_professor_bag-r13afe2e712594e0c960a3cf0060d3984_v9wtl_8byvr_324.jpg)
and visions of
(http://rlv.zcache.com/today_psychology_tomorrow_the_world_post_cards-ra1003a3a09704dad9cad8d36d27d558d_vgbaq_8byvr_512.jpg)
when the PIC you really needed is right here
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9FH9GyKSXq7zB1fXvlUX1EqFxTZjSB_BBOk0vxqtJzEbUfbzw8A)
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Looks like the message is sinking in even if your picture is distorted by your bruised ego. Keep coming pic boy. :t
And then there's irony. :lol
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Too close to call at this point.....might be looking at sudden death!
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(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/threaddirection.gif)(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/ilike.jpg)
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Got to try this feature at 150 yards .. much better :aok
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.... at the risk of being struck down simply for walking into this thread.... Thanks Arlo for crediting me (if only partially) with the formation .command contribution.
Arlo, Muzik.....I think you're both swell! :cheers:
I enjoy the feature.... Usually for me, this feature means that I can climb to target alt and reach target airspace with a little confidence. It DOES NOT make bomber formations invincible!
I remember before we had this feature the Pigs On The Wing had found a group of 10-12 B-17's in decent formation heading for our strats. Now simply because these bombers were all together (within 800-1200 of one another) didn't mean they couldn't be shot down... It wasn't easy! :mad:
But with other fighters (around 5 of us at 30k) diving into the formation, it wasn't unrealistic that a fighter could make it through the formation. I guess my point is, if you're a lone wolf, please don't cry that you can't get kills on a tight formation of buffs....
Get a wingman. Get a squad. Work together like us bombers are doing and you will have success. :x
-KB
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You're a decent bloke and a peace-maker, to boot, Dubious.
:) The 'Peacemaker' was a hell of a bomber, as well, just a tad too late to make the party.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/DH-4B_to_B36_Peacemaker.jpg)
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I made great use of this tonight in FSO I got home at 1050 from work smelling, and soaked with sweat upped did the dot command and set auto pilot and went and took a shower it was great, come back still in formation :aok