Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JohnnyHeelz on July 17, 2013, 11:17:50 AM

Title: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: JohnnyHeelz on July 17, 2013, 11:17:50 AM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/15/patent-troll-strikes-small-indie-mmo-devs/

Treehouse Avatar Technologies has filed suit against our very own HTC.....      And if you read the article it barely makes sense. 

The question I have for HTC though is,   with barely a budget to work with as it is, what happens to the game with legal fees piling up?   Is there any way we can make donations for the legal fees?

Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Karnak on July 17, 2013, 11:23:28 AM
Gee, I wonder wh they aren't suing Blizzard?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Lusche on July 17, 2013, 11:25:45 AM
Gee, I wonder wh they aren't suing Blizzard? 

Me not so much  ;)
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: JohnnyHeelz on July 17, 2013, 11:30:42 AM
They would rather go after the small, defenseless groups.  Little do they realize there is a community here to rise up and assist in thwarting them!!! 

I will donate!
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Wmaker on July 17, 2013, 11:40:15 AM
It's simply frigging disgusting.

I've only became aware of this kind of 'business' when X-Plane flight sim's creator Austin Meyers got similarly sued.

Austin Meyers telling about his case: http://youtu.be/sDg-Wh0XA-w (http://youtu.be/sDg-Wh0XA-w)


How these kind of oxygen wasting leaches sleep at night I'll never know.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: SirNuke on July 17, 2013, 11:50:04 AM
disgust is the word  :huh how do we reach those trolls? Will we have to send INK over to "settle" the matter?
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: titanic3 on July 17, 2013, 11:51:28 AM
The best way to counter said troll is with another troll, they'll keep each other busy in an endless cycle.  :old:

I nominate Arlo.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: hitech on July 17, 2013, 11:52:33 AM
The link you posted is a bit over stated

This is a better description.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2013/07/10/three-more-mmo-developers-receive-letters-treehouse-attorneys#.UebKmayOlI8

The letters all all identical except for Game Title and company name.

No one is being sued from this round of letters, it simply a letter that could be sent to anyone. The letter does not state anyone is infringing on the patient. It simply states "You may be infringing" My guess is that they simply started doing searches for online games and mass mailed the letters. They wish people to contact them back to make a quick settlement.

HiTech

Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: SirNuke on July 17, 2013, 11:55:13 AM
alright so that means they are 'shaking the tree' to see if some apples fall to the ground without much effort.

Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: JohnnyHeelz on July 17, 2013, 11:56:49 AM
Screw that HiTech, let's counter suit them!!!!    Pain and suffering, right?   Then they will no better......

(http://photos.imageevent.com/dwr49/gifs/orson%20clapping.gif)
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Arlo on July 17, 2013, 11:58:27 AM
It's simply frigging disgusting.

I've only became aware of this kind of 'business' when X-Plane flight sim's creator Austin Meyers got similarly sued.

Austin Meyers telling about his case: http://youtu.be/sDg-Wh0XA-w (http://youtu.be/sDg-Wh0XA-w)


How these kind of oxygen wasting leaches sleep at night I'll never know.

Thanks for the video link.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Bizman on July 17, 2013, 11:58:51 AM
I don't understand the logic, or my understanding of Legalese is poor. I read the patent here and there, download link to .pdf here (http://www.gamelaw.org/news?file=0&did=165&vp_edd_act=download&expire=MTM3NDE2NjAyMQ%3D%3D), but to me it seemed like the patent would apply to modifiable characters on an Internet site. I wouldn't call the AH game a net site, nor the different planes and their skins/armament/fuel load as a "character" - at least not as a personalized, identifiable by others avatar type cartoon fellow who'd assist you to find something in the net (think about Mr. Clippy in MS Office <shiver>).
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Arlo on July 17, 2013, 11:59:46 AM
The best way to counter said troll is with another troll, they'll keep each other busy in an endless cycle.  :old:

I nominate Arlo.

Get off my ankle.  :)
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: gyrene81 on July 17, 2013, 12:10:00 PM
I don't understand the logic, or my understanding of Legalese is poor. I read the patent here and there, download link to .pdf here (http://www.gamelaw.org/news?file=0&did=165&vp_edd_act=download&expire=MTM3NDE2NjAyMQ%3D%3D), but to me it seemed like the patent would apply to modifiable characters on an Internet site. I wouldn't call the AH game a net site, nor the different planes and their skins/armament/fuel load as a "character" - at least not as a personalized, identifiable by others avatar type cartoon fellow who'd assist you to find something in the net (think about Mr. Clippy in MS Office <shiver>).
thanks for that pdf. the "patent owner" is going to end up with his shorts around his ankles, especially if he goes after ea, microsoft, sony, etc...etc... where the big money is. if he's not careful, he's could end up with a massive counter suit.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: titanic3 on July 17, 2013, 12:10:06 PM
Get off my ankle.  :)

Just returning the favor.  :old:
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: LCADolby on July 17, 2013, 12:16:41 PM
The patent was issued to Treehouse on May 15, 2012...  :lol
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 17, 2013, 12:19:37 PM
I liked the response from the CEO of Bad Pug Games.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/153654507/Bad-Pug-Games-response-to-Patent-Troll


ack-ack
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Slash27 on July 17, 2013, 12:21:50 PM
I liked the response from the CEO of Bad Pug Games.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/153654507/Bad-Pug-Games-response-to-Patent-Troll


ack-ack
:lol
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: gyrene81 on July 17, 2013, 12:29:37 PM
I liked the response from the CEO of Bad Pug Games.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/153654507/Bad-Pug-Games-response-to-Patent-Troll

ack-ack
now that is hilarious...  :rofl
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Wmaker on July 17, 2013, 12:33:29 PM
especially if he goes after ea, microsoft, sony, etc...etc... where the big money is. if he's not careful, he's could end up with a massive counter suit.

That's the whole point, they won't. They go after small businesses which don't have the money for the massive legal fees and therefore settle the case by paying smaller compensation/royalties of their revenue.

I see a lot of similarities to a mafia which collects "protection money" from small local businesses.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: zack1234 on July 17, 2013, 12:34:21 PM
I am taking donations for said defense of our beloved game :old:

Please send cash as it is easy to manage :old:
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Mister Fork on July 17, 2013, 12:38:21 PM
So - they'll have to prove the infringement...right?
How I beat a patent troll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_lb3D7Ay-M)
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 17, 2013, 12:38:29 PM
That's the whole point, they won't. They go after small businesses which don't have the money for the massive legal fees and therefore settle the case by paying smaller compensation/royalties of their revenue.

I see a lot of similarities to a mafia which collects "protection money" from small local businesses.

They've gone after some of the larger MMOs, this particular company is currently in litigation against Turbine (developers of Lords of the Rings Online and DDO Online) and there is another company that has gone after EA and Activision which was settled out of court.

ack-ack
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: gyrene81 on July 17, 2013, 12:39:29 PM
I am taking donations for said defense of our beloved game :old:

Please send cash as it is easy to manage :old:
only if you're willing to do something "special" to the patent trolls and the pondscumsucking ambulance chasers they use for lawyers...photo evidence is not needed, just the news headlines will be enough.

 :devil  :devil  :devil
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Wmaker on July 17, 2013, 12:47:38 PM
They've gone after some of the larger MMOs, this particular company is currently in litigation against Turbine (developers of Lords of the Rings Online and DDO Online) and there is another company that has gone after EA and Activision which was settled out of court.

Sure they have, nothing compared to the size of Sony or Microsoft as gyrene mentioned, however.

I think this HTC's case is good example of how they usually operate. Frigging leeches.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Karnak on July 17, 2013, 12:48:03 PM
Ok, now that I am on my PC and not my cell phone I'll be bit more verbose than just a sarcastic did at the whole patent troll "industry".

1) If the brief description of the "patent" is accurate I can't see how Aces High infringes on it as you don't create a character in AH.

2) The courts have long held that you cannot patent something that is the same as an older thing, but On the Internet!

3) It is standard practice for patent trolls to go after smaller targets and make the cost of settling just a bit cheaper than the cost of fighting it.  Sometimes they go after big fish too, and sometimes they get the settlement, but sometimes they get fought and lose and when they lose their patent they lose their income.  For example a patent troll claimed that Amazon, NewEgg and others were infringing on their "shopping cart" patent for online retailers and Amazon and others settled but NewEgg has a policy to never settle with patent trolls (I don't think that policy was public at the time or it may have been created due to this patent troll) and fought it, and the patent troll no longer has that patent as NewEgg demonstrated there was prior art from Compuserve in the 1980s and the patent was ruled invalid.  Because of this I will lean towards buying from New Egg to support their troll slaying efforts.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/newegg-nukes-corporate-troll-alcatel-in-third-patent-appeal-win-this-year/
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/01/how-newegg-crushed-the-shopping-cart-patent-and-saved-online-retail/

As I have an interest in the tech world and patent trolls have primarily been parasites in that environment I have spent some amount of time reading about them and discussing the cases.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Brooke on July 17, 2013, 12:49:17 PM
HiTech, I have direct experience in this area professionally (am a cofounder of one of the world's largest publicly traded patent-licensing companies, have managed IP legal teams and strategy, and have been involved in a number of patent fights related to being a cofounder of a couple of biotech companies -- patent wars are a standard part of the biotech business).  There are ways that can potentially greatly minimize or eliminate such threats that are fairly quick and inexpensive to try.  As a long-time AH enthusiast (and AW enthusiast before that), I'm happy to talk to you about it.  My e-mail is brooke at customarrayinc.com -- if you want, just send me a an e-mail, and we can arrange a time to talk.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: moot on July 17, 2013, 01:06:03 PM
I liked the response from the CEO of Bad Pug Games.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/153654507/Bad-Pug-Games-response-to-Patent-Troll


ack-ack
Won't load in scribd webpage frame and asks for signup to download.   Anyone have it mirrored or something?
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: perdue3 on July 17, 2013, 01:14:10 PM
Gee, I wonder wh they aren't suing Blizzard?  :rolleyes:

No kidding.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Arlo on July 17, 2013, 01:35:01 PM
Just returning the favor.  :old:

I'm not thinkin' so. I don't whine your name in any old random thread for attention .... kid.  :)
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: gyrene81 on July 17, 2013, 01:37:14 PM
I'm not thinkin' so. I don't whine your name in any old random thread for attention .... kid.  :)
yes you do...   :t
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: titanic3 on July 17, 2013, 01:37:30 PM
I'm not thinkin' so. I don't whine your name in any old random thread for attention .... kid.  :)

 :rofl Keep it coming please.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Arlo on July 17, 2013, 01:40:28 PM
yes you do...   :t

Huh. Got proof?  :D
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Vinkman on July 17, 2013, 02:09:40 PM
I don't understand the logic, or my understanding of Legalese is poor. I read the patent here and there, download link to .pdf here (http://www.gamelaw.org/news?file=0&did=165&vp_edd_act=download&expire=MTM3NDE2NjAyMQ%3D%3D), but to me it seemed like the patent would apply to modifiable characters on an Internet site. I wouldn't call the AH game a net site, nor the different planes and their skins/armament/fuel load as a "character" - at least not as a personalized, identifiable by others avatar type cartoon fellow who'd assist you to find something in the net (think about Mr. Clippy in MS Office <shiver>).

Yes it would seem to be a stretch to call a Spitfire load out selection, a "modified character based on personal input".

 
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Bizman on July 17, 2013, 02:46:15 PM
Yes it would seem to be a stretch to call a Spitfire load out selection, a "modified character based on personal input".

 
Even with a pink skin...
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Mongoose on July 18, 2013, 10:05:31 AM
  Ok, what we need is a map with the Treehouse Avatar Technologies headquarters building, so we can all bomb it.  Repeatedly.   :airplane:
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Vinkman on July 18, 2013, 12:14:55 PM
Even with a pink skin...

 :lol    good one!  :aok
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: JOACH1M on July 18, 2013, 12:24:55 PM
I liked the response from the CEO of Bad Pug Games.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/153654507/Bad-Pug-Games-response-to-Patent-Troll


ack-ack
:rofl classic
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Wagger on July 18, 2013, 12:41:19 PM
Sounds like something that ends up in my spam folder.  Don't read it and empty it religiously each day.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: jeffdn on July 18, 2013, 04:07:52 PM
I told my friend and former boss, who is now a congressman, about it. The wheels are turning.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: palef on July 18, 2013, 05:29:38 PM
This is why I don't like people.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: olds442 on July 18, 2013, 07:46:04 PM
Get off my ankle.  :)
He liked it there :( Why did you evicted him.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Zodiac on July 18, 2013, 07:54:03 PM
Quote
Typically, such games allow users to create characters (avatars) using character attributes (hair color, eye color, skin color, attire, weapons, etc.)  The game operator keeps track of the popularity of each attribute by tallying how many times it is selected.  The same such systems and methods may also apply to games that permit users to create custom sceneries.

This seems to be the section of the patent that would include Aces High.

Overall to me it seems that they are trying to scare up some income, however since their patent appears to have been issued on May 15, 2012 I don't think they will gain much traction. The only real question seems to be (and perhaps Brooke can help here) whether the Priority Date being Jul 12, 2000 would be an issue.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: icepac on July 18, 2013, 08:09:06 PM
The big question is how they could get a patent for something that has been in existence for two decades.

I'm sure thier "patent" is in conflict of a patent that was existing before thiers.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: DREDIOCK on July 18, 2013, 08:34:15 PM
Make em an offer they cant refuse
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Vinkman on July 19, 2013, 01:42:52 PM
The big question is how they could get a patent for something that has been in existence for two decades.

I'm sure thier "patent" is in conflict of a patent that was existing before thiers.

Often times a patent is granted for things that are currently public domain if it is not widely known it is in use. There was a famous patent case against the Ford motor company because a group of investors had a patent for a motor powered car. After initially being found guilty of infringement, the case was later appealed and under the Apeal, Ford successfully argued that the patent was too broad, and useless since it patented no actual design, just the concept of a car. I would think in this case the Code developers can only patent the actual agorythms for employing their idea, not the idea itself.  A similar case was brought By Apple who sued Microsoft over the "look and feel" of a mouse operated OS, with drop down windows. Apple lost.

This Patent doesn't sound like it's worth the paper it's printed on.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: Bear76 on July 19, 2013, 02:37:17 PM
I liked the response from the CEO of Bad Pug Games.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/153654507/Bad-Pug-Games-response-to-Patent-Troll


ack-ack

He's using my picture in his letter...I am so gonna sue him!!
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: HL117 on July 20, 2013, 12:06:14 AM
Leech info below:

https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=7984707 (https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=7984707)

Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: John Galt on July 20, 2013, 11:13:16 AM
If they sue Hitech, the should receive their money in cold hard perkie points, and maybe a smallpox infested blanket.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: doright on July 20, 2013, 12:10:20 PM
The big question is how they could get a patent for something that has been in existence for two decades.

I'm sure thier "patent" is in conflict of a patent that was existing before thiers.

The basic problem is that the patent system is broken. The patent office doesn't have time or staff with the technical expertise to evaluate the deluge of patent applications. So a lot of worthless patents get issued. The only way those patents get properly evaluated is when they are challenged and end up in court. So the lawyers make out big time on both sides of the patent fight.

We could demand that congress fix the patent law. But that is like asking a zombie horde to diagnose and cure my headache.
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: MADe on July 20, 2013, 09:10:18 PM
Shakespere got it right, 1st thing we do is kill all the lawyers. :bolt:
Title: Re: STOP the Patent Troll!!!
Post by: EagleDNY on July 21, 2013, 01:02:12 PM
HiTech, I have direct experience in this area professionally (am a cofounder of one of the world's largest publicly traded patent-licensing companies, have managed IP legal teams and strategy, and have been involved in a number of patent fights related to being a cofounder of a couple of biotech companies -- patent wars are a standard part of the biotech business).  There are ways that can potentially greatly minimize or eliminate such threats that are fairly quick and inexpensive to try.  As a long-time AH enthusiast (and AW enthusiast before that), I'm happy to talk to you about it.  My e-mail is brooke at customarrayinc.com -- if you want, just send me a an e-mail, and we can arrange a time to talk.

Hey guys - if you need some assistance looking for prior art to invalidate this trolls patent, we used to sell the Worldgroup BBS and games back in the early 1990s.   There are definitely worldgroup games that were 1) multiuser, 2) over the internet, and 3) allowed for the creation of characters and the keeping of data, both in real time and saved about those characters and their status.   Feel free to drop me a line and I am more than happy to put you in touch with people that have more info on this stuff.