Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: TDeacon on July 19, 2013, 11:38:21 AM
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UI adjustments needed for the new TDs (turret-less AFVs):
1) As in existing tanks, all TDs (turret-less AFVs) should have a dedicated and *equivalently functional* TC (tank commander) position. In existing tanks this performs several important functions, which are allowing quick joystick-controlled traverse of the (magnified) direction of view, allowing snap shots using the aiming circle, and giving status information such as remaining ammo, speed, etc. In real WWII AFVs, TD commanders suffered no significant disadvantage relative to tanks in their ability to twist their bodies and use binoculars when looking out of the commander’s hatch, and could equally well communicate with their crew via intercom. Thus, a TC would be able to detect and react to targets equally well, whether in a TD or a tank. He would also know his speed, which ammo was loaded, remaining rounds, etc. equally well whether in a tank or a TD, and so it should be in the game. For example, in the above Hetzer sortie, I couldn’t tell how fast I was going, given the removal of the dedicated driver’s position. Even worse, I also was unable to quickly scan the surroundings from the TC position under magnification (critically important to avoid ambushes).
2) The TD’s gunner’s range setting is lost when jumping away from the gunner’s position. This is a big disadvantage when attempting precision shooting, and makes no sense from a realism standpoint. In a real WWII TD, a gunner was no less capable than a tank gunner of leaving range settings in place between shots.
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Point 2 agreed....infact i thought it was a bug.
point 1 I use TIR and can scan magnified so TIR has a real advantage here.................. can you set a mode switch to switch from snap view on the POV hat to pan view?
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Field of view changes still work in the TC position.
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It should actually be set up like the M-3 GMC. You have a rotatable TC position but no other info.
I couldn't figure out what wasn't right until I got back in the M-3.
wrongway
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You used to be able to get inside of the tanks.
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Field of view changes still work in the TC position.
Not sure what you mean by "field of view changes", but the things I am asking for definately are *not* there, and should be, if only for consistency. In particular, the ability in previous tanks to quickly rotate the direction of view of the TC with the joystick is critical to SA. Doing this with view keys only works without magnification, as otherwise there are gaps. Doing this with "F3" + "F8" is slower and requires clunky preliminary key presses, both of which involve significant SA disadvantages (I am speaking from practical experience here).
There is no prototypical reason to deny these abilities to the new TDs. I always assumed this TC position to be a representation of a TC with his upper body out of the hatch, scanning the terrain with his binoculars. As we all know, in real life, it is pretty quick and easy to turn one's head and rotate one's trunk to look around.
MH
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It should actually be set up like the M-3 GMC. You have a rotatable TC position but no other info.
I couldn't figure out what wasn't right until I got back in the M-3.
wrongway
At minimum, yes. However, the "circle" UI element should be added as well, again for consistency.
MH
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<snip>
point 1 I use TIR and can scan magnified so TIR has a real advantage here.................. can you set a mode switch to switch from snap view on the POV hat to pan view?
Maybe, but pan view is slower.
MH
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Maybe, but pan view is slower.
MH
Justy tried it actually you get pretty damn fast panning in pan view and its just F8 > F5 to switch between pan and snap.
As you zoom it pans slower anyway but still faster than its possible to catch something hiding.
To slow it down you just inch your POV accordingly.
So you have all the visuals this way....you just dont have your turret following them. (which is actually more realistic IMO)
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Not sure what you mean by "field of view changes", but . . .
For GVs I have the CH Pro Throttle micro-stick mapped for FOV (field of view). In every tank this allows you the ability to zoom from any view except the main gun sight. I experimented with using the throttle wheel of the Fighterstick Pro, but I didn't like the extra hand movement involved.
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Justy tried it actually you get pretty damn fast panning in pan view and its just F8 > F5 to switch between pan and snap.
As you zoom it pans slower anyway but still faster than its possible to catch something hiding.
To slow it down you just inch your POV accordingly.
So you have all the visuals this way....you just dont have your turret following them. (which is actually more realistic IMO)
It's slower on my system, and this matters a lot in terms of SA. Panning should be as fast as possible, allowing the player to slow it down if needed. The current tank joystick panning with the TC view is as fast as possible.
But in any case my overall point is that the UI should be the *same* for all GVs, unless there is a legitimate historical reason not to (which there isn't in the case of my OP). Not saying that there aren't inferior work-arounds, which I think is the gist of your comment.
MH
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What should really happen is that the UI circle be moved from the center of the screen where it acts as a convenient gunsight. None of the tanks we are using had the ability for the TC to aim from outside the tank. For that matter, I'm not aware of any modern tanks that have that feature, either. Slew the turret to an approximate azimuth, sure, but not aim.
The TDs definitely need a compass of some sort.
Regards,
Hammer
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What should really happen is that the UI circle be moved from the center of the screen where it acts as a convenient gunsight. None of the tanks we are using had the ability for the TC to aim from outside the tank. For that matter, I'm not aware of any modern tanks that have that feature, either. Slew the turret to an approximate azimuth, sure, but not aim.
The TDs definitely need a compass of some sort.
Regards,
Hammer
I may be wrong, but I always thought the TC UI circle was there to allow a single player to simulate a full tank crew, especially at short range where you don't have time to "jump" to the gunner's position. It is a play aid, rather than an exact representation of what a WWII TC would do on his own. Remember he also has a gunner, driver, etc. For the same reason, you can "steer" the GV from the TC's posotion, but that is not intending to imply that real TCs could steer their AFVs.
MH
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The current tank joystick panning with the TC view is as fast as possible.
Not saying that there aren't inferior work-arounds, which I think is the gist of your comment.
MH
Actually its not a work around.............. turning the turret (what it seems you've become used to) is the "work around" ...panning/snap/instant is the viewing system. As would be TIR if you had it.
It is the viewing system for all GV's that do not have a TC position.........it can be used to give 360 views.............on my system I can pan so fast the trees turn to a blurr so I cannot see how speeding it up assists SA................... if the TC (the link between this position and the turret)is disabled what is left is perfectly adequate for SA by the very measure that it is the standard method of viewing.
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I may be wrong, but I always thought the TC UI circle was there to allow a single player to simulate a full tank crew, especially at short range where you don't have time to "jump" to the gunner's position. It is a play aid, rather than an exact representation of what a WWII TC would do on his own. Remember he also has a gunner, driver, etc. For the same reason, you can "steer" the GV from the TC's posotion, but that is not intending to imply that real TCs could steer their AFVs.
MH
If that is the case, there is no reason for the TDs, including the M3 with the 76mm, to not have the same capability. It may be harder to implement since the forward view in the TC position is not necessarily looking the same way the gun is pointing like it is in a tank, though.
Regards,
Hammer
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If that is the case, there is no reason for the TDs, including the M3 with the 76mm, to not have the same capability. It may be harder to implement since the forward view in the TC position is not necessarily looking the same way the gun is pointing like it is in a tank, though.
Regards,
Hammer
I would think that HTC would just (in code) treat the turret-facing portion of the circle UI as pertaining to the side-to-side main gun traverse, thus treating it as a limited traverse turret. So you pan rapidly off to the side, the gun slowly follows, but stops at the angular traverse limit. Otherwise, behavior would seem to be the same as in a tank. The main player benefit is consistency with the tank UI, and quick joystick scanning of the terrain, along with status information derived from the "circle".
MH
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Actually its not a work around.............. turning the turret (what it seems you've become used to) is the "work around" ...panning/snap/instant is the viewing system. As would be TIR if you had it.
It is the viewing system for all GV's that do not have a TC position.........it can be used to give 360 views.............on my system I can pan so fast the trees turn to a blurr so I cannot see how speeding it up assists SA................... if the TC (the link between this position and the turret)is disabled what is left is perfectly adequate for SA by the very measure that it is the standard method of viewing.
Tilt,
Your suggestion is a *work around* because it does not deliver the SA performance for TDs which is already available for tanks. It is a logical error on your part to assume that just because something is labeled as being part of the game’s “view” system, that only those things contribute to SA. If you were a more experienced GVer, you would know this (your stats show you don’t GV much; no offense, but that’s what they show). Finally, TIR is irrelevant to this discussion, as most people don’t have it.
We are not talking about “turning the turret” here. We are talking about, when in the TC position, using the standard tank UI ability to rapidly (more so than with F8) pan laterally, if necessary up to 360 degrees , in order to detect opponents. Yes the turret follows slowly, but that is secondary. Go offline in a regular tank, and you will see what I am talking about. You know that SA is the most important thing in air-to-air play; take my word for it that this applies to many common GV situations as well. Take my word for it. :-)
Here’s an example. You are rapidly advancing. At various points, there is the possibility of ambush from the right and left. You want to as quickly as possibly switch to point your TC *magnified* view in those directions, as the opportunity can be fleeting. Seconds matter. Once pointed, again, blurring is not a factor.
And again (!!!), the key point is UI *consistency* between TDs and tanks. In historical reality, both tanks and TDs had TC positions, which in general, were equivalently functional between the 2 types. This should be reflected in game. Simple logic.
MH
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I would think that HTC would just (in code) treat the turret-facing portion of the circle UI as pertaining to the side-to-side main gun traverse, thus treating it as a limited traverse turret. So you pan rapidly off to the side, the gun slowly follows, but stops at the angular traverse limit.
That's already implemented in tanks. In most tanks you can elevate the commander view higher than the gun can follow. It simply stops at max elevation, but that doesn't stop the commander's view from going up a few more degrees.
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That's already implemented in tanks. In most tanks you can elevate the commander view higher than the gun can follow. It simply stops at max elevation, but that doesn't stop the commander's view from going up a few more degrees.
True; so it's even easier to implement.
MH
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Point 2 agreed....infact i thought it was a bug.
It is, and has been fixed for the next patch
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It is, and has been fixed for the next patch
What are your current thoughts on my "point 1"?
MH
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What are your current thoughts on my "point 1"?
MH
I too am curious :headscratch:
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I'd say he doesn't agree by looking at the patch notes
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Perhaps. I wonder what his reasoning behind that decision is, though.
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I'd say he doesn't agree by looking at the patch notes
Possibly, although it could be that they just wanted to get the easy fixes out quickly, and will consider doing the work to make the UI consistent later. Point 1 isn't really a bug, but more a requirements/design oversight.
MH