Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Rich46yo on July 19, 2013, 12:24:51 PM
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Thanks for any input.To be fair this wasnt entirely my fault. What the video doesnt show is the 2 mins before when a Niki bled off a lot of my "E" by making me break off this Hellcat. I knew immediately I was in trouble, normally I'd never be so slow in a Yak, and could have broke off but I wanted to test the Yak so why not fight to the bitter end. Who knows it may be a noob.
Well it wasnt. It was against a guy who doesnt make mistakes. What I want to know is what impact does the high speed flaps play in this kind of rope maneuver. I most often run into it against corsairs, Hellcats, Mustangs...ect and I suspect a level of flaps or two allows the inward turn at the top of the rope. Anyway the video, embarrassing tho it may be. http://youtu.be/5zFeYrgZLXY
Thanks for any input. :salute
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By my terminology, that wasn't a 'rope' at all. To me a rope is when the two of you zoom near vertical, and the guy in front depends on having a better zoom climb than the guy behind. The guy behind runs out of speed and his plane stalls or he's forced to break off, while the guy in front hammerheads or loops over and takes advantage of the stalling guy below.
What that video looked like to me was, you started off climbing to him, he used his superior E to loop twice to get you to follow him and bleed your E. As he got slow, he was definitely popping out flaps. F4U's pretty much always do that, as they make a ginormous difference at low speed for them. You pretty much can't stall fight effectively without them.
What I think I would've done differently if I were you at the beginning of that video is gone level on sight, instead of climbing to him. That would give you more speed to play with from the initial merge. I'd have conserved my E and tried to equalize E as much as possible. Once an F4U is co-E with most aircraft, he's doomed as it generates E more slowly than most of the rest of the planeset. F4U-4 being the exception of course.
Once I was co-E, I'd have taken the fight uphill, as the F4U just wouldn't be able to climb with you.
Wiley.
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from what i've been told, the term "rope" is short for "rope a dope" and it's basically setting a con on your six to be picked off by a friendly. the most common one i see is when a guy drags the con straight up to bleed his e and the friendly zooms in to pick him off.
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from what i've been told, the term "rope" is short for "rope a dope" and it's basically setting a con on your six to be picked off by a friendly. the most common one i see is when a guy drags the con straight up to bleed his e and the friendly zooms in to pick him off.
To me that's a drag and bag. A rope a dope from the common usage I've seen doesn't require a friendly. If it's 1 on 1 the ideal is, you both go straight vertical and if the guy following is cooperative, he keeps going up and up and up until his plane is just hanging and falls into an uncontrolled stall. Ideally, the guy on top hammerheads at the right moment and has a nearly stationary, completely out of control plane below him just as he opens fire. P38's and 190s often use it to great effect. A jug with smash can use it well also.
A lot of people who are dragging do employ the rope though, and it's definitely one of the best ways to set a guy up. Easiest shot in the game, and even if the bouncer misses, the guy who was roped is out of E.
Wiley.
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To me that's a drag and bag. A rope a dope from the common usage I've seen doesn't require a friendly. If it's 1 on 1 the ideal is, you both go straight vertical and if the guy following is cooperative, he keeps going up and up and up until his plane is just hanging and falls into an uncontrolled stall. Ideally, the guy on top hammerheads at the right moment and has a nearly stationary, completely out of control plane below him just as he opens fire. P38's and 190s often use it to great effect. A jug with smash can use it well also.
A lot of people who are dragging do employ the rope though, and it's definitely one of the best ways to set a guy up. Easiest shot in the game, and even if the bouncer misses, the guy who was roped is out of E.
Wiley.
Wiley, sorry for the dumb question, but what is smash? WEP? :headscratch:
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Wiley, sorry for the dumb question, but what is smash? WEP? :headscratch:
"Smash" is something I've never seen officially defined. I guess if I were to come up with a formal definition it would be 'at a speed above its normal level flight speed capability'. A plane with smash has come down from altitude.
Wiley.
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Wiley, sorry for the dumb question, but what is smash? WEP? :headscratch:
smash is basically travelling very fast and carrying a lot of energy...like what happens when you dive down on someone from a higher alt.
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definitely not a "rope"
I would have lowered my nose grabbed some speed....instead of that first left turn you do...you should have started climbing as soon as he went to left....you would have met him at the top and had much better position from there.
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Watched it on my iPhone so forgive me if I'm wrong but it looks like you lost him visually for a few critical seconds during and after his 2nd pass. With you not knowing where he is and having fought the defensive fight the whole encounter I think that may be where he had you. I agree w/ Ink I would have nosed down a tad for speed and climbed when he was making that climbing left turn. If anything you would have kept him in your peripheral vision.
Not sure if the outcome would have been different with you in a new unfamiliar plane and him in a ride he obviously spends some time in. Way to stick with it and fight the fight anyway :aok
:salute
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definitely not a "rope"
I would have lowered my nose grabbed some speed....instead of that first left turn you do...you should have started climbing as soon as he went to left....you would have met him at the top and had much better position from there.
I agree, looks to me like you gave up some energy that you could have really used once the fight got going. :salute
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Rich,
You got some good comments to think about! I agree with Mbailey about loosing sight,it made it difficult to see what the niki was doing on the Utube vid but at the initial merge when the niki dove under you I saw a fatal mistake!
You followed him down and gave up your alt. I tried to see the airspeed ind. but it was difficult to make out,if you had suffient speed it would have been better to nose up turn or even flat turn to maintain your alt. This would have made the niki nice and slow as he climbed up to you.
That said,I think the biggest mistake was,loose sight loose fight,as simple as that.
If I had the AHF film it would have been easier to really diagnose the fight but then I'd have to watch it on my other comp as I don't have the game on this lapper.
:salute
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The definitiion of a rope is when you're leading with a trailing con and take the fight vertical, dragging the con up behind you "with a rope". In a 1v1 situation you hope/pray you have the advantage and the con will stall-out first, resulting in you gaining the 6 on his tail - in AH where it's often multiples vs multiples, it's an easy way to string out your con to be quickly/easily picked off like a dangling piece of meat by your friends, but can expose you to their gun solution. If you're roping a con and have friendlies nearby, call it. If you're a friendly nearby, take a grab for the free kill. If you're being roped and don't think you have the E advantage AND know other enemies are nearby - avoid it!
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Hi Hurless,
Here are the things I observed in looking at your film. (As Morf pointed out, the AH Film would be much better for evaluating, as the E-states can be determined more precisely from the film):
1) It is definitely NOT a rope. This was a turning engagement, which the F6F initiates with his left turn at about 00:24 of your film.
2) You seem to be relatively slow to him at the first turn (your IAS appears to show between 160-175 on the gauge) coming into the first merge. That’s not a lot of speed to go vertical with. At around the 00:21 mark, when he begins tipping his hand toward an intended left turn, you could build a little E by first going flat or a little nose low, anticipating his left turn and preparing to lead turn into him.
3) During this first part of the engagement, you seem to be flying entirely LAG pursuit angles. Note how your nose is consistently pointed behind him from 00:24 to 00:32. As the slower plane, lag pursuit is going to put you farther and farther behind him, instead of closing the distance. Given your speed deficiency, I think you should probably be flying to where he is going (lead), not where he is. This would have kept you a bit closer and perhaps even put you in position for an early shot at that first or second merge. Granted, those would be difficult shots, but ones you may want to take against an opponent that is going to out-E-fight you in a protracted fight.
4) From 00:32-00:49, you are essentially in a rolling scissors, and one that you unlikely to win given his increasing E advantage. When you lose sight (around 00:51-00:54) you pretty much lose the fight. You also reverse your turn at this point, giving him your six while he comes down with speed.
5) The defensive fight from that point on is another subject altogether.
That is my assessment of it. I’d like to hear what others think and how accurate my take on it might be.
<S>
Ryno
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Thanks for the replys. I never really lost sight of him. Whats wasnt shown on the film was the Niki initially dropping on me which caused me to lose both energy and altitude. The part of me looking back at the Niki was AFTER he originally bounced me. I knew I was trouble immediately after I saw the HC dive and saw all the E he was storing. At the beginning I was in far better shape, and yes, I normally drop and build up E in such a situation. This time I didnt. The Niki bled me and then I still tried to gain on the HC. I know what I did wrong.
The thing I want to know is what part do flaps play when a high speed flaps fighter reaches the top of his zoom. Do you hit a flap or two and then raise them as you drop again? It just seemed like an awfully tight turn for a HC at the top of his zoom.
Honestly I dont care all that much about terminology. I just want to know if flaps are used.
By my terminology, that wasn't a 'rope' at all. To me a rope is when the two of you zoom near vertical, and the guy in front depends on having a better zoom climb than the guy behind. The guy behind runs out of speed and his plane stalls or he's forced to break off, while the guy in front hammerheads or loops over and takes advantage of the stalling guy below.
Especially when it was that that happened. I just didnt climb, or climb much, cause I knew he had energy on me.
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I agree Rich you want to know what happened not what its called....I would ask the guys in this area to focus on that in the future, The man wanted to know what he did wrong not the definition of what killed him.
In response to your question I have this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be)
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"Smash" is something I've never seen officially defined. I guess if I were to come up with a formal definition it would be 'at a speed above its normal level flight speed capability'. A plane with smash has come down from altitude.
Wiley.
Thanks for the clarification Wiley & Gyrene. :salute
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I dont mind guys talking about it but I knew what I did wrong at the time it happened. What I actually want to know is what part does flaps play in the maneuver that beat me, since I often see this in airplanes with high speed flaps. If I cared about stats I'd have broke off right when the HC broke and I saw how, and how much, he was building/managing his "E".
At the top of their zoom do you have to worry about HCs, Corsairs, 5`s,...ect deploying flaps and turning in on you far tighter then normal?
I agree Rich you want to know what happened not what its called....I would ask the guys in this area to focus on that in the future, The man wanted to know what he did wrong not the definition of what killed him.
In response to your question I have this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be)
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I dont mind guys talking about it but I knew what I did wrong at the time it happened. What I actually want to know is what part does flaps play in the maneuver that beat me, since I often see this in airplanes with high speed flaps. If I cared about stats I'd have broke off right when the HC broke and I saw how, and how much, he was building/managing his "E".
At the top of their zoom do you have to worry about HCs, Corsairs, 5`s,...ect deploying flaps and turning in on you far tighter then normal?
Flaps give you more lift at lower speeds so popping flaps will delay a stall. So yes, better cartoon pilots will be popping flaps at the top of a loop so they can delay that stall. In doing so they will still be able to maneuver/control the plane that little bit longer to get the position they need for a shot. A P38 can zoom climb and popping flaps and get to 50 MPH and STILL be very controllable at the top of a loop. F4u's and F6's will have to chop throttle because of the torque of the engine but they have great flaps as well.
Flaps also help in high speed turns. In a pony, merging from a relative front quarter approach, you can chop your throttle a second pop a notch of flaps and get a tighter turn to get an angle on the bogie. It brings out those "you C******! ponies can't turn that fast!" rage PMs.
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I agree Rich you want to know what happened not what its called....I would ask the guys in this area to focus on that in the future, The man wanted to know what he did wrong not the definition of what killed him.
In response to your question I have this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be)
To be fair, you should have a good working definition of what the move(s) was that just killed you if you plan on talking to folks to figure out how to counter it. Luckily Rich showed us a video, so the confusion was cleared up. G.I. Joe said knowing is half the battle. G.I. Joe is not wrong. Ever.
In the video, I probably stay nose high at his break and try to cut him off at the top of his loop. It looked like you had the E to stay with him. The F6 does zoom well, but at the alt you were at the Yak should have been up to the task. That said, I don't think you lost the fight by going nose low. It looked like you missed a pretty good overshoot opportunity as he's coming off the top by your right wing. A nose high roll to the left and maybe a throttle reduction might have worked out well. Once you let him off the hook on that overshoot, he did the right thing and got on top and stayed there. I'd say you were closer to winning/surviving this fight than you might think.
*edit* - I screw up flaps at the top of loops too. It's generally a good idea to hit them in any plane, my issue is usually hitting them too late. Imo, if your nose is already falling off, you're a little late with flaps.
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In a pony, merging from a relative front quarter approach, you can chop your throttle a second pop a notch of flaps and get a tighter turn to get an angle on the bogie. It brings out those "you C******! ponies can't turn that fast!" rage PMs.
I have seen skilled 51 drivers do that. What is the fastest flaps will deploy in a mustang?
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I have seen skilled 51 drivers do that. What is the fastest flaps will deploy in a mustang?
I have one film I like to watch before I go flying. It's call "51luvs" with BigR doing to pony flying. He comes into the fight at around 5k and 350 MPH against 5 cons (spits and KIs) He will pull his first turn on the merge dropping a notch of flaps at 320 mph, pull hard and bring the flaps back up in a second or so. It's enough to cut the corner a bit more and get in on the first spit to get a good rope. A number of times he drags them up as he drops 2 or 3 notches of flaps and get under 100 mph to get a good guns pass in which he fires off a burst or two to get the kill.
Great aim, knowing your plane, and knowing the other planes add up to a bunch of kills in under 15 minutes.
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Your call sign is Hurless Rich46yo? I wanted to see who the F6F pilot was but I couldn't find any deaths to an F6F in a Yak in the present tour.
I'm guessing either Dodger, Greebo, DrZeus or Bruv119. Those chaps don't make many mistakes :eek:
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No its not, and I dont like using names when showing film without permission of the other player.
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No its not, and I dont like using names when showing film without permission of the other player.
Very decent of you :salute
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You know that guy was Bish and BushLT knows how to fly a F6F.
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I know what I did wrong.
Hi Rich46yo
I just watched your film, and read your subsequent comments here and I can't see anything that supports your quote.
It looks to me as though you don't really know what went wrong in that fight. Your questions about flaps also suggest you may be looking in the wrong direction for answers.
The good news is that from watching the film I can identify a number of gross BFM errors, some of which were repeated, and all of which are fairly easy to learn how to correct.
If you would like a correct analysis please feel free to PM me.
Regards
Badboy
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:huh WTF quote are you talking about? If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?
Hi Rich46yo
I just watched your film, and read your subsequent comments here and I can't see anything that supports your quote.
It looks to me as though you don't really know what went wrong in that fight. Your questions about flaps also suggest you may be looking in the wrong direction for answers.
The good news is that from watching the film I can identify a number of gross BFM errors, some of which were repeated, and all of which are fairly easy to learn how to correct.
If you would like a correct analysis please feel free to PM me.
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:huh WTF quote are you talking about?
The one that I quoted at the top of my response, similar to the one I am now quoting above.
If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?
Yes, I can answer your question about flaps, and had you asked the question without posting the film I would have answered more directly. However, I assumed that your question was related to the events in the film and from the film you posted it was clear that the flap employment you were asking about would have made little or no difference to the outcome. So I was simply offering to help with what happened in the film that actually did make a difference to the outcome.
Good luck with that.
Badboy
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:huh WTF quote are you talking about? If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?
You'd wonder why anyone would really bother helping you with that attitude :o
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Thanks for any input. :salute
TO THE OP: The quote above from your original post is what would imply you were looking for ANY input. Yes, you asked about "using flaps in a rope maneuver", but your film doesn't show that, so most people focused on what actually happened and the overall ACM in your film. With all due respect, you seem to be getting a little defensive, when people are trying to be helpful by taking their time to provide useful input (which you seemed to ask for by posting the film). Most of the feedback you are getting agrees that flaps usage by your opponent was a minor issue compared to the overall maneuvering and views used in the fight. By focusing only on "flaps" I think you might be missing out on some other rather valuable points.
Let me put it this way: If you knew everything there was to know about flying the F6F, including flaps usage, would you have done something differently in this fight? What is it you think you did wrong?
TO BADBOY: Since I took a stab and analyzing the engagement, I'd actually like to hear your feedback on the BFM/ACM aspect of this fight. I'd suggest going ahead and posting it here, as I'll certainly read it, and it may be helpful for others who will read the thread as well. At the very least, please PM it to me, as I am curious to know if any of my assessment holds any water. Thanks!
<S>
Ryno
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TO THE OP: The quote above from your original post is what would imply you were looking for ANY input. Yes, you asked about "using flaps in a rope maneuver", but your film doesn't show that, so most people focused on what actually happened and the overall ACM in your film. With all due respect, you seem to be getting a little defensive, when people are trying to be helpful by taking their time to provide useful input (which you seemed to ask for by posting the film). Most of the feedback you are getting agrees that flaps usage by your opponent was a minor issue compared to the overall maneuvering and views used in the fight. By focusing only on "flaps" I think you might be missing out on some other rather valuable points.
Let me put it this way: If you knew everything there was to know about flying the F6F, including flaps usage, would you have done something differently in this fight? What is it you think you did wrong?
TO BADBOY: Since I took a stab and analyzing the engagement, I'd actually like to hear your feedback on the BFM/ACM aspect of this fight. I'd suggest going ahead and posting it here, as I'll certainly read it, and it may be helpful for others who will read the thread as well. At the very least, please PM it to me, as I am curious to know if any of my assessment holds any water. Thanks!
Agreed, on all points.
- oldman
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:huh WTF quote are you talking about? If you cant answer the GD question I originally asked, about flaps, then why in hell are you posting?
One of the best technical trainers in the game and this is how you answer his offer for help????
To quote Badboy....
Good luck with that.
Badboy
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Rich after watching the film hi speed flaps are the least of your worries its wrong from the top to the bottom hope that comes across just as rude as you come across to people who actually know what they are talking about trying to help you out.
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Yaknow This is why I dont like to post video, name names, or ever go on 200. Its the drama , the egos, the implying you implied something, the peanut gallery. It was a very straight forward question I asked.
Badboy I never said WHAT I did wrong, asked for help, and was never looking in any direction for answers. I asked about flaps. Even still I know you meant well and Im sorry for barking at you. Thats for you alone.
The video is removed.
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This has been an ordeal.
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:O
The only ego I've witnessed in this thread is the OP's. To learn you first must know what you did wrong. Knowing the nomenclature helps understanding what it is that you are trying to learn. So keep on as you have been and good luck.
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Wow.
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Wow.
yep, bout sums it up....
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:rofl i had a feeling this was going to go south...went from :cry "i know what i did wrong but wft?" to :furious "ef you, a-hole, don't tell me what i don't know"... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
great job :aok
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Rich,
I'll try to answer your question without the ego,yes flaps can help they increased lift can reduce the turn radius. The higher the speed they can be deployed the soon you can take advantage of them.
Folks,this is help and training forum,it doesn't help to make snide remarks. If you feel you must,start a new thread in the GD forum,I don't have to read them!
:salute
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TO BADBOY: Since I took a stab and analyzing the engagement, I'd actually like to hear your feedback on the BFM/ACM aspect of this fight. I'd suggest going ahead and posting it here, as I'll certainly read it, and it may be helpful for others who will read the thread as well. At the very least, please PM it to me, as I am curious to know if any of my assessment holds any water. Thanks!
<S>
Ryno
If you would like me to analyse a film for you in order to verify or confirm your own thoughts I would be happy to help.
It is much easier to do the analysis with all the information, so I would prefer to work with the aces high (.ahf) film file if possible. We can do it here, or if you prefer, we can do it via PM. What ever suits you.
Regards
Badboy
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Terminology is a pretty BFD in aviation, not to argue the point, but bad information or communication is bad. We're in a flight sim and virtual world, and we're not mandated to fluently speak and understand English to participate flying in it either, but the virtual aviation-terminology is identical to the real. Ignore the critics from those trying to help on the forums (but this is nothing new).
Technicaly you're talking about ropes in regards to most players will pop a notch or two of flaps at the top of the rope - either to delay the stall beforehand or quickly recover the aircraft after the stall. I think where you're encountering it most is in the rolling sizzors manuever it sounds like (which, if we want to nitpick, is closer to a flat sissors and barrel roll maneuvers than ropes, but anywho...).
I dont mind guys talking about it but I knew what I did wrong at the time it happened. 1. What I actually want to know is what part does flaps play in the maneuver that beat me, since I often see this in airplanes with high speed flaps. If I cared about stats I'd have broke off right when the HC broke and I saw how, and how much, he was building/managing his "E".
2. At the top of their zoom do you have to worry about HCs, Corsairs, 5`s,...ect deploying flaps and turning in on you far tighter then normal?
Some great answers to this so far, but I wanted to offer some input on it. I think you see this as one whole question you've asked, but it is actually two.
1 - You want to know how it beats you? Simple answer: What is the difference between sustained turn rate and instantaneous turn rate in aviation terminology.
The long:
Per the AH trainers site and TC at http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/instturn/instturn.htm :
Instantaneous Turn / Sustained Turn
by TC aka Tequila Chaser
You can classify turns into (2) categories which are Instantaneous or Sustained.
Instantaneous Turn / Instantaneous Turn Rate - where a plane pulls max G's (near 6 right before blackout) to turn quickly for a short period of time, turn rate varies with speed , usually bested at the corner speed/ corner velocity of a given aircraft. A turn that quickly expels speed and possibly alt, while an instantaneous turn is by definition unsustainable, most times to be no more than a 180 degree turn or change in direction. While usually bested at the corner speed of the given aircraft, this turn can be performed at higher or lower speeds with less benefit.
Sustained Turn / Sustained Turn Rate - where a plane maximizes it’s smallest turn radius, g - load, and speed to acquire the best possible turn rate and continuously sustains the turn for long periods of time, without giving up alt, speed, or degrees of turn.
As the above definitions have defined, the difference between the two is the period of time you're able to maintain the rate of turn. While you can achieve a high instantaneous G-load by pulling back hard on the stick, you will not be able to maintain that high rate of turn for very long because that high G-load will increase drag and slow the aircraft, in return this will reduce the maximum G obtainable. Conversely, a lower G-load produces less drag. Eventually you'll reach a point where thrust will be sufficient to overcome the drag being produced. This will allow you to maintain the current G-load and speed. This is called sustained turn rate.
You will find that most Aces high pilots rely solely on an aircrafts sustained turn rate performance speed and basically ignore the instantaneous turning ability when choosing their ride. This is usually because an aircraft with a high sustained turning rate will be easier to fly in combat. To ignore instantaneous turn rates would be a really bad judgment call on your part. A superior instantaneous turn rate can be useful for defensive maneuvering, but when used effectively, it can be deadly in an offensive capacity. This advantage can allow you to come to a guns solution faster, but the downside is that if your sustained turn rate is inferior, unless you make the kill immediately, you're in for trouble. It is at exactly this point that you'll understand why a superior sustained-turning-rate aircraft is easier to fly.
In your video the con has the E-advantage, and is in an aircraft equiped with high-speed flaps - at the opportune moment he traded some of that comfortable-advantage (alternatively, it could of been a last-ditch effort) with his flaps to gain a quick instantaneous turn that provided a guns solution on you. It worked but is not a very good strategy, as had it not worked and you used it to your advantage, he would/could of given up his advantage over you with that flap deployment.
2 - "At the top of their zoom" almost any aircraft can deploy flaps (that is equiped with flaps and at the top/slowest moment are below their deployment speed) to eek out an advantage in regards to forcing an instantaneous turn onto you for an advantage. But, per TCs description, this bleeds speed/E that otherwise could of been conserved by them for use in another maneuver.
The sum of it is that as you learn to counter these agreesive turning maneuvers, and progressively start to turn/fly better yourself (I ask: "are you sustaining your turns and not excessively bleeding speed/energy when you don't need/intend to?"), you'll see that the patient and disciplined fighter can often outlive and win over the less patient or more desperate.
And to be honest but not insulting, I haven't been able to watch your video, and it apears to now of been removed by the user who posted it. :noid I will try to be a good listener though if ya have more questions.
PS - I should of noted, it is harder for you to execute instantaneous turns with the flight option enabled for "stall limiter" - disableing it allows you to execute these bleeding-edge turns to the fullest extent in AH (including the possibility of over-doing it and inadvertantly stalling your ac).
:rofl i had a feeling this was going to go south...went from :cry "i know what i did wrong but wft?" to :furious "ef you, a-hole, don't tell me what i don't know"... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
great job :aok
Humble pie, mmmm.