Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Perrine on July 22, 2013, 04:17:47 AM
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Lately i'm seeing threads lamenting the lost art of chivalry and the 'art' dogfighting :headscratch:
Don't you think that's tied to the current state of joysticks out right now in the market if you're not CH Warthog HOTAS+Throttle+Rudder+Track IR (will your waifu approve such indulgence with the CH pack I just mentioned?)
How can you dogfight properly if your Logitech or Saitek joysticks no more expensive than a Playstation or XBOX controller is hampering the way you fight with "Dont move your stick suddenly" text messages.
I think majority of players here own 'cheap' joysticks while those who consider themseleves best of the best own boutique 'flight' controls that can cost nearly $1000. There is no longer in-between like what the Microsoft Sidewinder used to occupy when it comes to combining high technology & durability in a attractive price ppoint. Benjamin priced Microsoft Sidewinder a decade ago (bought mine used) was a great value. If you can find them on ebay in really good condition grab them asap :joystick:
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I'd have to say no,
I can think of a ton of sticks that make me go :O from a cheap and nasty twisty stick. A lot of practice, patience and persistence have made them all dangerous opponents. Find them in-game and ask them how they do it, what settings etc.
The people who don't put the time in and cry cheat or hack need to accept that.
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Your joystick is broken if you keep getting "don't move your controls so rapidly". If your using a broken JS, your not gonna have a good day.
The average Hotas system cost around $150 not $1000. Less than you pay for a year of AH.
Their is no added input you get from a Hotas, or rudder pedals. You can't buy ACM.
People like to have a excuse for why they suck... Equipment is one of them.
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only stick Ive used has been the same 30 dollar Logitech, replaced several times but the same model.
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Elcheapo Logitech here as well. I'm not an Air Warriors vet, but I'm guessing threads complaining about the lost art of honorable dogfighting have been around along time. Its been the same since I started.
I can see that trackIR and a smooth set of controls with good buttons would be a plus, but I have plenty of fun with my cheapo and way too many other activities draining my fun budget. I don't get the "Don't move your controls..." message. When I lose a fight against a good player I never feel its the joystick. I didn't manage my E right, took too big of a risk, guessed wrong on his move, had an SA fail, pushed my plane too far, or just plain didn't know or use ACM properly.
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Your joystick is broken if you keep getting "don't move your controls so rapidly". If your using a broken JS, your not gonna have a good day.
The average Hotas system cost around $150 not $1000. Less than you pay for a year of AH.
Their is no added input you get from a Hotas, or rudder pedals. You can't buy ACM.
People like to have a excuse for why they suck... Equipment is one of them.
+1 It is not the stick, but the hand the stick is in !
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It is most definitely not the joystick, but rather the way it's set up and used by the player. If the stick is in proper working order, there is absolutely no reason to ever see the "don't move your controls so rapidly", other than the player wielding said stick.
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I fly with a Logitech G940 with force feedback enabled. I think it helps me ride the edge of a stall a little better, but I honestly have no idea if I would be better or worse with a non-FFB stick. I would hope I'd adjust if this stick takes a dump on me.
Beyond the FFB, I can't see any advantage you could have with an expensive stick. Getting comfortable with what you've got is probably way more important than having the most expensive.
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A properly functioning stick is a stick. I do think the average person gets a major upgrade in capability when they get pedals as well as trackir though. People who can get the same ability with a twisty are the exception not the rule. Trackir allows you to keep better view of a bandit while riding the edge of blackout than hat views.
Wiley.
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Expensive doesn't mean good. I got a microsoft precision pro in the 90s. Since then I've bought several more expensive sticks, pedals and throttles and I always end up going back to my ms pre pro. It's 15 years old, doesn't spike, never needs calibrated and it only cost about thirty bucks. If it ever breaks I'll get a ch stick, never owned a ch stick but I've used them, they're very smooth and precise but they lack a rudder axis.
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you heathens. you must all now go out and buy CH gear thus thou art commanded in the name of true dweebery. :D
I fly ch stick and pedals and the remnants of an x52 throttle because I like trim wheels and i want to upgrade from CH stick to TM warthog with its no deadzone and hal sensors... droool
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I never miss an opportunity to brag on my Saitek ST290 Pro twisty stick. That thing is at least 10 years old and is only missing one button despite sustained abuse. I never upgraded to a higher caliber JS or bought into rudder pedals and TrackIR. I feel I'm on the verge of ending my gaming life in favor of putting funds into other hobbies. Then I take a break and find myself craving the action again.
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A properly functioning stick is a stick. I do think the average person gets a major upgrade in capability when they get pedals as well as trackir though. People who can get the same ability with a twisty are the exception not the rule. Trackir allows you to keep better view of a bandit while riding the edge of blackout than hat views.
Wiley.
Ever tried F11 mode? Look at the plane you want to follow with your head, hit tab until they are selected, then hit F11. Your hat switch views will still function properly but when not in use, your head will follow the enemy, through the bars of the cockpit even. It's pretty rad.
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The only time a controller will have a negative effect on your flying is if 1) it's malfunctioning or 2) improperly calibrated. Yes, some of the higher end joysticks are more precise in their movements but it's not going to give one the edge in a fighter over someone with a lower-end controller.
ack-ack
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I'm not an Air Warriors vet, but I'm guessing threads complaining about the lost art of honorable dogfighting have been around along time. Its been the same since I started
It's been the same since 1988. :aok I think it was great then and is great now, but all of the behaviors people complain about today have been around since the beginning at roughly the same prevalence.
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Some spikey behavior of sticks can be attributed to them not being plugged into powered USB hubs.
This doesn't affect everyone, but it certainly does affect some (such as myself when I was using once of the motherboard ports instead of a powered hub).
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I played with a $15 twisty stick, the Logitech 3D Pro and had no issues whatsoever, could compete with just about anyone, so I'd vote no. Joysticks do not matter, players do.
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I would question my Net connection long before I would ever suspect my joystick, with the days you just cannot miss the other guy followed by the day you cannot hit the broadside of a barn. I suspect this to also has more to do with the person than the equipment.
:joystick:
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I played with a $15 twisty stick, the Logitech 3D Pro and had no issues whatsoever, could compete with just about anyone, so I'd vote no. Joysticks do not matter, players do.
I can vouch for this. I've spent hundreds of dollars on my setup and I still can't beat RedBull and his crappy little $15 stick. :P
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Got myself a $20 Saitek Cyborg. No problem beating those with $500 set ups.
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My Saitek X52 Pro flight system hasn't failed me yet, and it's the most durable setup I've ever had.
While I'd love a CH setup, I really don't need one.
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In the old days with analog game ports, those with high end joysticks did have an advantage over those with lower end sticks, especially if those with the high end joystick had a speed adjustable gamecard. With USB, joysticks are digital now so there is really no disparity (signal wise) between a high end joystick and a low end joystick.
ack-ack
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I play with a 6(?) years old Microsoft FF2 stick, no throttle unit, no rudders, no trackIR (using keyboard views), on a 14" laptop and do just fine.
If you have a logitc stick throw it in the bin. I had one some time ago and I could not fly with it. It was way too sensitive and the range of physical motion too limited, so I kept stalling all the time. Saitek stuff seemed better but the one I had broke down. I don't know what I will do if my FF2 dies.
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I play with a 6(?) years old Microsoft FF2 stick, no throttle unit, no rudders, no trackIR (using keyboard views), on a 14" laptop and do just fine.
If you have a logitc stick throw it in the bin. I had one some time ago and I could not fly with it. It was way too sensitive and the range of physical motion too limited, so I kept stalling all the time. Saitek stuff seemed better but the one I had broke down. I don't know what I will do if my FF2 dies.
Buy mine.
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CH gear is the best but has the appearance of Mother Teresa :)
I have everything from Trackir gaming chair , top of the range gaming PC
AH is awesome and so am I :old:
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In the old days with analog game ports, those with high end joysticks did have an advantage over those with lower end sticks, especially if those with the high end joystick had a speed adjustable gamecard. With USB, joysticks are digital now so there is really no disparity (signal wise) between a high end joystick and a low end joystick.
ack-ack
I second this.
Caused me to go in my closet & look at the old Thrustmaster MarkII Flight Control System & the Thrustmaster ACM Game Card that I still have--why I don't have a clue--& remember the old days.........................
:D
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I had to go to a cheap Saltek stick after my MSFF2 went bad and there is a difference but not that much . If this stick had more weight it be ok but I think going form a twist stick to peddles was a bigger advancement .
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The only other thing I could think of would be the USB controller & how good it could handle different USB spec'd devices plugged in the same USB header or PC.
As I understand it most USB joysticks are built on USB 1.1 specs & most other devices today are using USB 2.x or up. So to say this another way, most joysticks use the legacy USB std & most other devices today use USB hi-speed or full-speed std.
I can see some issues potentially coming from a USB 1.1 device plugged in the same header as a USB full-speed or hi-speed device & the USB controller trying to set up the bus speed to the header w/ 2 different USB devices reporting to it, even w/ the USB controller set up in the BIOS to recognize them all.
Tis why I set up all my boxes to read the USB legacy spec & turn off the hi-speed/full-speed capability in the mobo BIOS....since I primarily use this box to play flight sims which means I'm using my CH HOTAS which is built to USB 1.1 std. USB controller sets all headers up to the same bus speed/bandwidth so no speed switching is going on.............which could technically cause some jitters in movements.
Not saying that this will/does happen but I just make sure that it don't....................
:D
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I know that a lot of players swear by them but THE WORST joystick I ever owned was a Saitek. Even worse than the suncom which is what I switched back to by the end of the first day. It was the x45 stick/throttle combo. I liked the throttle though, I kept it hooked up, within a year though the only thing still working on the throttle was the axis.
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Pedals are the thingies you push with your feet. Peddles is to sell buckshee gear :old:
Whilst I'm on the subject brakes are what you stop with, breaks is what happens to anything nice I have :old:
and yes, Zack is awesome :banana:
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I know that a lot of players swear by them but THE WORST joystick I ever owned was a Saitek. Even worse than the suncom which is what I switched back to by the end of the first day. It was the x45 stick/throttle combo. I liked the throttle though, I kept it hooked up, within a year though the only thing still working on the throttle was the axis.
I have made the error of buying Saitek 45 too but as with Floob, the throttle is really nice.
Still use it with CH stick and pedals and as long as it works I will keep it.
Regarding the OP, I do think it is not so much the hardware and people not knowing what they do but do not underestimate how your hardware setup has an impact on your abilities.
Wrong settings can make a bad pilot worse.
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It isn't the Joystick that makes an expert in this game..
There have been some serious killers in this game who flew with a Keyboard..
I have a G940, mint condition works perfectly, but I play with Logi X3dpro twisty..
I've never been an Uber player, I just like to have fun in the game..
LOL, if it is working correctly, a cheap stick will do just fine..
I could have bought 12 X3d's for the Price of the 940, lol..
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I flew for years with a mouse, and was pretty damn good with it. I could load and unload G with such precision I was accused of cheating more than once, though the lack of easy rudder and throttle control were a bit of a drawback. I now fly with a G-940 and love it - the FFB adds a lot. I'm sorry Logitech discontinued it, it had a few teething issues, but was a solid product and a few tweaks would have made it unbeatable. It cost about $200 new.
However it isn't the plane, it's the pilot. Hardware is nice, and it helps, but it isn't skill. When someone slices your La-7 out of the air with a Mosquito, it isn't because they've got a snazzier throttle than you.
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I've been playing with an old worn Microsoft Sidewinder. I'm going to pick up a CH setup. It will enhance the game for me having throttles in left hand and stick in right just like the real planes. It will really be nice having all the buttons on the throttle quadrant to employ flaps and such while dogfighting instead of looking down at the keyboard for such commands only to look back at the monitor and wonder "where did he go?' Having separate rudders will definitely be an improvement over trying to twist in rudder inputs while simultaneously working my lift vector.
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I've been playing with an old worn Microsoft Sidewinder. I'm going to pick up a CH setup. It will enhance the game for me having throttles in left hand and stick in right just like the real planes. It will really be nice having all the buttons on the throttle quadrant to employ flaps and such while dogfighting instead of looking down at the keyboard for such commands only to look back at the monitor and wonder "where did he go?' Having separate rudders will definitely be an improvement over trying to twist in rudder inputs while simultaneously working my lift vector.
The sidewinder has more than enough buttons to map flaps, landing gear etc. or what do you use the buttons for?
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Assuming the hardware is set up properly and is functioning properly, sticks do not make the pilot.
The different types all have similar guts. The joysticks either move potentiometers or hall effect sensors, both of which alter a voltage input to establish stick position. Pots wear out and is why some sticks get jittery as they age.
I believe the one variation you might find is the resolution, at which the ic controller reads the pot or sensor. I read somewhere that comercial grade sticks use 16 bit resolution. My homebrew stick uses 8 bit res.
I am going to change the controller chip so I can use hall effect sensors at 10 bit res. I expect no actual difference in game play. I hope the sensor will last longer than my current format, pots.
Joysticks can be like handling the opposite sex, its all in the wrist.
S
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The sidewinder has more than enough buttons to map flaps, landing gear etc. or what do you use the buttons for?
I didn't know that I could assign functions to the sidewinder. How do I do that? Specifically, I'd like to add flaps lower and raise and a button to cycle through stores. View zoom in and out would also be useful. I'm still getting ch stuff but this would be nice to have in the meantime.
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In game, open Clipboard, Options, Controllers, Map controllers or something like that, don't have AH on this rig...
Anyway, from the controller mapping system you can make the joystick buttons and axii do anything that can be done with the keyboard. You can also use more than one controller simultaneously. Even more than one joysticks if you find that comfortable.
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In game, open Clipboard, Options, Controllers, Map controllers or something like that, don't have AH on this rig...
Anyway, from the controller mapping system you can make the joystick buttons and axii do anything that can be done with the keyboard. You can also use more than one controller simultaneously. Even more than one joysticks if you find that comfortable.
Excellent gouge Bizman, thank you. I'll have a few more sessions on the well worn Sidewinder then it will be time to hook up the new CH stuff enroute.
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I have some more questions. As a firm believer and practitioner of KISS, am I right in understanding I can plug and play all the CH stuff without messing around with downloading the software from CH Products? Also, is there really a big advantage to downloading the software and using it? I have an IQ of about 10 when it comes to computers and all things related so I like to avoid unnecessary fooling around with them whenever possible. Thanks.
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I forgot to mention to calibrate the throttle axis in AH... Too much typing and erasing, going back, editing in between...
For CH and other programmable brands, AH doesn't require their stuff. Just plug, map the functions, calibrate when applicable and play. Of course there's a "but": If you want to use macros you'd need the utility.
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I have used my CH USB system for the past five years. And before that my old CH analog system lasted until I removed it and installed the USB system. I don't fly near what I used too. But my old system was abused every day. And often several hours on every day off. The best way to improve your game is time in the seat. Which unfortunately I don't have a lot of.
Cost wise it's a great investment as game devices go. Around $300-400 for Fighter Stick, Pro pedals and pro throttle. You can go cheaper with a Combat stick for example, but I wouldn't scrimp on the throttle.
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It might make a little difference.
I've always used twisties but have always been limited by being left handed so need an ambidextorous stick. I've mostly used a Sideinder 3D Pro, Saitek ST290 and Saitek AV8R. No big difference between them except the Sidewinder was more durable.
What does make a difference is that my current AV8R is getting loose (sloppy) at center which makes it harder to align my shots compared to a new, tighter sprung stick.
It's still not bad enough to get me to move to the new, unused ST290 I have as a backup but it's bad enough that I occasionally notice it and have to account for it.
That said ACM, SA and practice make up 99.8% (no reference cited) of your ability to compete regardless of what you use as a controller.
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I went from a 3d pro to X52 now I have the full CH setup.
The difference from the 3d pro and X52 was only the bounce in the movements so making shots were a bit harder but if you set up your shots right they shouldn't be that hard with or without the bounce.
Going from the X52 setup to full CH was the rudder pedals...the adjustment s may be a bit more precise but nothing noticeable in a fight.
I have a pretty good rig and still get my butt whooped constantly so yea gear doesn't effect ACM skills.
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It might make a little difference.
I've always used twisties but have always been limited by being left handed so need an ambidextorous stick. I've mostly used a Sideinder 3D Pro, Saitek ST290 and Saitek AV8R. No big difference between them except the Sidewinder was more durable.
Do you know that the T16000m is ambidextrous? It's shipped right handed but it's perfectly symmetric and comes with left hand replacement pads. The palm rest is turnable for lefties, too.
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Do you know that the T16000m is ambidextrous? It's shipped right handed but it's perfectly symmetric and comes with left hand replacement pads. The palm rest is turnable for lefties, too.
Yes I do and plan that to be my next stick but for now my AV8R's still working acceptably and my ST290 only has about three hours of use on it so I have no need to rush.
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It is the immersion factor within the game that all this kit gives to the user....the somewhat "feeling" of actually flying a WWII combat aircraft.
The words "flight simulation" or the phrase "flight sim" comes to mind.
After this it is ALL on the "pilot" & their skill level & seat time......................... ...................
Hmmmm, that's why I get shot down so..............not enuff skills & seat time...................
:D :x