Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Karnak on August 06, 2013, 12:33:34 PM
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Japan revealed its newest, and largest, destroyer today, the Izumo:
(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/eeyBlo.IvQiAxYsL0qzFxg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTczNztweW9mZj0wO3E9ODU7dz0xMTAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2013-08-06T080509Z_763353871_GM1E98618J501_RTRMADP_3_JAPAN.JPG)
This destroyer is the largest warship built in Japan since WWII.
http://news.yahoo.com/japan-unveils-largest-warship-since-130234811.html
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The destroyer label kept throwing me off, it looks like an LHA assault carrier.
(http://www.aircav.com/dodphoto/Ships/LHA2-Saipan%5Brs%5D.jpg)
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Yes, it is a helicopter carrier with a nearly 820ft flight deck. No catapult or ramp for launching fixed wing aircraft though.
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Aerial view of it:
(http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/311839/slide_311839_2776422_free.jpg?1375801784379)
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I wonder if any of Japan's order of F35's will include the F35B. If that surface is tough enough they could easily operate 1/2 a squadron from that ship. No wonder China is so happy about it, ha ha.
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No, it's not a carrier. Japan can't have a carrier because it's against their Constitution. It's a destroyer.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c14/burner22/tumblr_lnnkm2iar91qiadpyo1_500.gif)
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Apparently there are reports that there were design changes made to it so that it can support Osprey and F-35 operations.
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Does japan have the capacity to build a full size carrier?
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Does japan have the capacity to build a full size carrier?
Of course. They are just not supposed to because of their constitution. Hence, this is a "destroyer".
Also, being just under 820ft, this is pretty much as big as anybody's carriers other than ours and the Royal Navy's new Queen Elizabeth class.
HMS Queen Elizabeth building:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Queen_elizabeth_class_forward_island.jpg)
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Of course. They are just not supposed to because of their constitution. Hence, this is a "destroyer".
Also, being just under 820ft, this is pretty much as big as anybody's carriers other than ours and the Royal Navy's new Queen Elizabeth class.
reminds me of a time when bombers were actually "airliners"
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reminds me of a time when bombers were actually "airliners"
Dunno. I think this is a lot more open. It is a warship up front and nobody looking at it is going to mistake it for an actual destroyer. That is true of its preceding class as well. China is pushing hard in the region and I don't think anybody expects Japan to try to repeat the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere imperialistic crap they did before. I think this is a pretty obvious defensive buildup so that they China can't just push them around.
The only nations involved in that region that realistically can stand up to China are the US, India and Japan. India is building carriers of its own as well. Japan is building two Izumos.
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Hehe, similar to how our invincible class carriers were termed through deck cruisers so we could have them. :)
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Upon reading on englands new carrier I'm a little impressed.
No more sloped flight deck.
Wonder why they would go with a gas turbine as appose to a nuclear power plant.
Cost maybe?
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Dunno. I think this is a lot more open. It is a warship up front and nobody looking at it is going to mistake it for an actual destroyer. That is true of its preceding class as well. China is pushing hard in the region and I don't think anybody expects Japan to try to repeat the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere imperialistic crap they did before. I think this is a pretty obvious defensive buildup so that they China can't just push them around.
The only nations involved in that region that realistically can stand up to China are the US, India and Japan. India is building carriers of its own as well. Japan is building two Izumos.
Wouldn't South Korea be a part of that? Or are they weaker than I realize?
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Wouldn't South Korea be a part of that? Or are they weaker than I realize?
they might be weaker than we realize
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Japan has a huge ship building capability I've read. There is a great site, I'll have to go find it again, with all of the belligerents in the South China Sea's sea power listed, including China. China has built a LOT of really, really advanced ships as of late. It's frightening how far they've come since 2000 or so.
http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/fac.htm
I've read that China has nearly 200 Type 022 built now, extremely fast, as in give the LCS a run for its money, stealthy somewhat, ridiculous missile loadout for such a small ship....pretty scary thinking about 100 of these little buggers coming at a USN CVN group from 180 degrees...that's 800 missiles potentially incoming...even 100 would be an awful lot for the defenses to fight off 100%. And that's just one ship class, they've built an awful lot of advanced DD's and FF's as well.
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Wouldn't South Korea be a part of that? Or are they weaker than I realize?
Compare populations. If S.K. were to be cut off, there would be no contest.
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Awesome link gman :aok
and man do they have alot of crap :O
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They're going to need it, and more in the future.
As much radiation that is breaching the barrier at Fukishima, they'll need a new island to live on.
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sooner our carriers are built the better, Argentina just bought 20 Mirage fighters from Spain and Spain are threatening to Invade Gib.
Scandalous :old:
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reminds me of a time when bombers were actually "airliners"
That was only with Germany during the inter-war period to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles and to disguise the fact they were rebuilding their air force.
ack-ack
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Wouldn't South Korea be a part of that? Or are they weaker than I realize?
Unlike India (border disputes with China) and Japan (disputes over ownership of certain islands), South Korea doesn't share a border with China nor has any territorial disputes with China, so South Korea wouldn't be part of it.
they might be weaker than we realize
Check again, South Korea has a very well trained and equipped military.
ack-ack
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sooner our carriers are built the better, Argentina just bought 20 Mirage fighters from Spain and Spain are threatening to Invade Gib.
Scandalous :old:
The question is, will the UK have any planes to use on their new carrier or will it be destined as a floating restuarant? :D
ack-ack
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I dunno I thought they were doing something like paying through the nose for an F35B ?
Need some smart boffin types to re-develop the Harrier. I was in awe the first time I saw one, hovering, then flying backwards waving to the crowd, awesome! :D
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No, it's not a carrier. Japan can't have a carrier because it's against their Constitution. It's a destroyer.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c14/burner22/tumblr_lnnkm2iar91qiadpyo1_500.gif)
:rofl
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If that's a destroyer, how will the nuke that they mustn't build be called? :lol
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If that's a destroyer, how will the nuke that they mustn't build be called? :lol
Hypothermic weapon?
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They'll probably contract the name out to some Japanese marketing firm, and end up with something like "Smile Happy Package of Sunshine Type."
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The question is, will the UK have any planes to use on their new carrier or will it be destined as a floating restuarant? :D
ack-ack
Yes, floating restaurant until the F-35 can be relied upon. Meetime, they're HMS Victory off the tourist circuit and pressing her back into service.
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They'll probably contract the name out to some Japanese marketing firm, and end up with something like "Smile Happy Package of Sunshine Type."
:rofl
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Does japan have the capacity to build a full size carrier?
Sure. But why spend the Yen when you have the dumb Yanks to protect them?
But they are plenty scared of submarines, most of all Chinese ones, and thats what this ship looks geared for. It has neither a cat or a ski ramp and Japan has no plans to buy F35Bs.
The Chinese probably have 50 or 60 type 022s. They eventually want to build about 100. Its YJ-83 anti-ship missiles have a range of about 100 miles. Its a green water boat only. It only has a range of about 500 nm, has almost no defensive armament, no Helicopters, and only displaces 225 tons. It appears to be configured as not much more then a suicide boat that can only be used in waters no US Carrier would ever be in in the first place. A USN CVG basically controls all air and water space, from ocean bottom to atmosphere top, in a 600 nm circle around it. They operate effectively thousands of miles from shore ; Their strike aircraft can be refueled to and from a target.
In contrast our LCS is far more capable, larger, faster, and can be fitted with mission specific modules.
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Every warship is a destroyer! It's all relative :old:
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Every warship is a destroyer! It's all relative :old:
:lol
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Sure. But why spend the Yen when you have the dumb Yanks to protect them?
But they are plenty scared of submarines, most of all Chinese ones, and thats what this ship looks geared for. It has neither a cat or a ski ramp and Japan has no plans to buy F35Bs.
The Chinese probably have 50 or 60 type 022s. They eventually want to build about 100. Its YJ-83 anti-ship missiles have a range of about 100 miles. Its a green water boat only. It only has a range of about 500 nm, has almost no defensive armament, no Helicopters, and only displaces 225 tons. It appears to be configured as not much more then a suicide boat that can only be used in waters no US Carrier would ever be in in the first place. A USN CVG basically controls all air and water space, from ocean bottom to atmosphere top, in a 600 nm circle around it. They operate effectively thousands of miles from shore ; Their strike aircraft can be refueled to and from a target.
In contrast our LCS is far more capable, larger, faster, and can be fitted with mission specific modules.
THe Izumo is classified as a helicopter destroyer, which is meant to succeed the Hyūga-class helicopter destroyers with its main role to be anti-submarine warfare. The Izumo class helicopter destoyers were designed to carry 14 helicopters and the deck was designed with 5 helicopter landing spots for simultaneous take off and landing. One of the design differences between the Izumo-class and the Hyūga-class is ability of the Izumo-class being able to support the Osprey and F-35. It is also meant to operate with other warships to help provide defense, though the Izumo-class ships are outfitted with Phalanx CIWS and SeaRAM systems for self-defense. It's basically the Japanese version of one of our amphibious assault ships but the Japanese have to classify it as something other than a carrier.
ack-ack
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Wonder why they would go with a gas turbine as appose to a nuclear power plant.
Because in Europe, nukulear powar is teh devil!!!!!111one
Also, many countries refuse to let nuke powered ships into their harbors. So as long as you're not shooting your way into a harbor (a dumb thing to do with a carrier anyhow), making it conventionally powered has a significant practical benefit.
Plus, yes nukes are expensive. I just don't think it was the biggest consideration. Politics, public sentiment, and practical considerations were I think probably bigger issues.
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Also, many countries refuse to let nuke powered ships into their harbors. So as long as you're not shooting your way into a harbor (a dumb thing to do with a carrier anyhow),
wait a sec?? parking the carrier right infront of the SB isn't standard real world practice? :bolt:
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China's getting big. Glad we wouldn't be going into a fight on our own, or things could get nasty.
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Just wait until you get a look at the new Japanese Harbor Tug! :D
(http://www.combinedfleet.com/Musashi.jpg)
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China's getting big. Glad we wouldn't be going into a fight on our own, or things could get nasty.
War with China? How could they get all the money the U.S. owes them? And who would make most of the stuff at Walmart? The U.S. is the last country that China would start a war with.
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War with China? How could they get all the money the U.S. owes them? And who would make most of the stuff at Walmart? The U.S. is the last country that China would start a war with.
Just pork their forward bases :old:
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No, it's not a carrier. Japan can't have a carrier because it's against their Constitution. It's a destroyer.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c14/burner22/tumblr_lnnkm2iar91qiadpyo1_500.gif)
.....and the German HE-111 was a passenger plane.
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I don't think anybody expects Japan to try to repeat the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere imperialistic crap they did before.
...oh...there might be one or two of us...
- oldman
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Yeah I caught the play on words with the "Destroyer" part.
They have two more like it being built. Now maybe someone from the navy can chip in but I dont think just building the Hull allows you to operate fized wing off it, like F-35B. Theres a whole lot of additional kit that needs to be in place. I doubt very much it would be imposable to do, the upgrade that is. And for all we know the Japanese Navy is gearing up the other two for F35B. I know they have f35A ordered but not the B.
They have a Beef on-going with China over some Islands near Taiwan. They also have a Beef on-going with Russia over other Islands. But the one with China is worse cause both have ships and war planes buzzing around. That and the Chinese still havnt forgotton WW2, "Asians NEVER forget".
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Just wait till one tries to jack with the other's fishing. That's what sets them off.
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Tbh, I would love to see China get a butt kicking in some form (just not all out war).
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War with China? How could they get all the money the U.S. owes them? And who would make most of the stuff at Walmart? The U.S. is the last country that China would start a war with.
As if egos and politics doesn't play into that stuff at all...
Tbh, I would love to see China get a butt kicking in some form (just not all out war).
Agreed maybe get into a semi-major altercation with Japan, just big enough for them to call in their debts. Then we could refuse, sell a bunch of stuff to Japan, and screw them over.
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The day the USA refuses to honor its foreign debt is the day the Dollar loses all value internationally. That will never be allowed to happen regardless of war, personalities or egos.
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That would look kinda bad for us paying china to have an altercation with one of our allies
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Oh not refuse forever. But if they were in a conflict with an ally, we would be... Shall we say morally obligated to refuse aid to their enemy.
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Heads up folks, you are wandering into political waters. Let's not go there.
Thank you.
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Heads up folks, you are wandering into political waters. Let's not go there.
Thank you.
(http://www.troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-pun.jpg)
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Japan revealed its newest, and largest, destroyer today, the Izumo:
(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/eeyBlo.IvQiAxYsL0qzFxg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTczNztweW9mZj0wO3E9ODU7dz0xMTAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2013-08-06T080509Z_763353871_GM1E98618J501_RTRMADP_3_JAPAN.JPG)
This destroyer is the largest warship built in Japan since WWII.
http://news.yahoo.com/japan-unveils-largest-warship-since-130234811.html
The Izumo 2.0 wont have it as easy as its grandpa in WWII, sailing all the way up the Huangpu-River and shelling Shanghai just off its own harbor in support of the Imperial Japanese Army invading the city.
Nowadays, the Izumo would be instantly perforated by China's supersonic cruise missiles and "DF21-ed" to hell the moment any shooting war breaks out. JMSDF ASW assets are pretty dangerous to China's submarine force and hence priority targets warranting even ballistic missile strikes.
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The day the USA refuses to honor its foreign debt is the day the Dollar loses all value internationally. That will never be allowed to happen regardless of war, personalities or egos.
It is not the US governments dollar, it is the federal reserve banks dollar, a private corporation.
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Edit: this is probably too political...
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Now that the UK has a "stanadard" cv, wonder if china, India, and Russia will start on one of their own.
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Nowadays, the Izumo would be instantly perforated by China's supersonic cruise missiles and "DF21-ed" to hell the moment any shooting war breaks out. JMSDF ASW assets are pretty dangerous to China's submarine force and hence priority targets warranting even ballistic missile strikes.
A totally unproven, over-hyped, system. The shooting of which would automatically trigger the Defense treaty with America and give the Chinese a much bigger head ache. One flat top would instantly become about 25 flat tops to worry about. Also Japan herself has a very capable submarine force and the PLAN would have a big problem itself against them.
Japan isnt spending to protect herself. Japan is spending to give a credible deterrent with the knowledge the USA will be coming to the rescue. At least vis-a-vis the Chinese. And Im not sure the Chinese would automatically fire these IRBMs. Touching off missiles is risky business, most of all swarms of them, most of all when an opponent has a very large nuclear inventory herself. Far larger then they have. Not that America would push the button if we saw these things flying but you can be sure we'd be one step from doing so.
And launching these missiles, which have never even been tested against an actual ship, would open up the Chinese mainland to a concerted attack by smart munitions against high value targets.
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One thing u guys are forgetting is china's ballistic cv killer. It is able to kill a cv. If china would fill threaded they would use that most likely first. Also I believe the trade deficate is in china's favor. It would be ill advised for them to start provoking the us. Look back at WWll to how the Military forces were back woodsy. Five years later were one of the for most Military's in the world. America is a sleeping dog. Yank his tail and you will face mouth full of fangs.
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No I didnt forget it. It has never been tested realistically, has never been used, and the only test it has passed was they say ONE hit a CV sized target etched in the desert floor somewheres in China. A much different proposition then hitting a CV out in the ocean thats moving at 30 knots and is protected by numerous tiers of air and missile defense. Actual air and ship launched missiles designed to sink ships are a much bigger danger but even that is manageable.
One thing u guys are forgetting is china's ballistic cv killer. It is able to kill a cv. If china would fill threaded they would use that most likely first. Also I believe the trade deficate is in china's favor. It would be ill advised for them to start provoking the us. Look back at WWll to how the Military forces were back woodsy. Five years later were one of the for most Military's in the world. America is a sleeping dog. Yank his tail and you will face mouth full of fangs.
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I think the Japanese have more to worry about with North Korea. From an external pov the US is heavily in debt, Iraq and Afghanistan appeared to stretch the US. If I were Japan my main concern would be NK, and dealing with that threat with lessened support from the US. There are other regional issues around fishing rights etc where Japan may need to have some influence (the Chinese are really pushing into the Pacific as an influencer).
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I think it's a beautiful ship, but what a crock to call it a Destroyer.
Yes, it is a helicopter carrier with a nearly 820ft flight deck. No catapult or ramp for launching fixed wing aircraft though.
But if pressed, how quickly do you think they could retrofit some onto that ship?
No, it's not a carrier. Japan can't have a carrier because it's against their Constitution. It's a destroyer.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c14/burner22/tumblr_lnnkm2iar91qiadpyo1_500.gif)
:aok :ahand
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The Izumo 2.0 wont have it as easy as its grandpa in WWII, sailing all the way up the Huangpu-River and shelling Shanghai just off its own harbor in support of the Imperial Japanese Army invading the city.
Nowadays, the Izumo would be instantly perforated by China's supersonic cruise missiles and "DF21-ed" to hell the moment any shooting war breaks out. JMSDF ASW assets are pretty dangerous to China's submarine force and hence priority targets warranting even ballistic missile strikes.
Good Lord, I wasn't aware it had the same name as a vessel that had shelled Shanghai. Talk about a red rag to a bull. The inability of the Japanese administration to see beyond the end of its own nose is staggering.
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I think it's a beautiful ship, but what a crock to call it a Destroyer.
Japanese constitution kinda forces their hand there, but it is internal Japanese law, not international treaties, at issue, so China and North Korea don't have any grounds to object.
But if pressed, how quickly do you think they could retrofit some onto that ship?
Rapidly I would imagine. Supposedly it has already been built to support F-35B and Osprey operations.
Good Lord, I wasn't aware it had the same name as a vessel that had shelled Shanghai. Talk about a red rag to a bull. The inability of the Japanese administration to see beyond the end of its own nose is staggering.
Japan seems to do the same thing the UK and USA do, recycle ship names.
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Good Lord, I wasn't aware it had the same name as a vessel that had shelled Shanghai. Talk about a red rag to a bull. The inability of the Japanese administration to see beyond the end of its own nose is staggering.
Luckily bulls don't care about the color of the rag, just the movement.
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Luckily bulls don't care about the color of the rag, just the movement.
:aok , touche :lol
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Good Lord, I wasn't aware it had the same name as a vessel that had shelled Shanghai. Talk about a red rag to a bull. The inability of the Japanese administration to see beyond the end of its own nose is staggering.
You're assuming it isn't intentional.
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You're assuming it isn't intentional.
I think it is, and quite funny. As long as China owns most of our debt, I'm almost obligated to enjoy seeing them get the one-finger salute.
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I think it is, and quite funny. As long as China owns most of our debt, I'm almost obligated to enjoy seeing them get the one-finger salute.
Risking being Skuzzied, but Americans own most of our government debt. China is the largest foreign holder of American debt, but still much smaller than US citizens collectively own.
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Risking being Skuzzied, but Americans own most of our government debt. China is the largest foreign holder of American debt, but still much smaller than US citizens collectively own.
True, but I think you knew what I meant ;).