Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on August 18, 2013, 05:17:05 PM
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Post war heart break.....All destroyed or scrapped.
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We didn't need to save all of them, but it would have been nice to save more of them than we did, particularly the Axis examples. If we'd simply stored them for future museum use.
I know the UK was worse than broke at the end of the war and pretty much had to turn whatever they could into raw materials to try to rebuild, which is why you don't see any UK battleships preserved like US battleships. I am not sure how the Soviets saw this kind of thing, they had a very different world view.
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Not sure who it was - Frank Tallman, maybe? - who bought up a bunch of surplus bombers and fighters right after the war. He owned one of the top 20 air forces in the world at the time. Drained the fuel from the tanks, sold it and nearly paid for the entire purchase.
- oldman
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Not sure who it was - Frank Tallman, maybe? - who bought up a bunch of surplus bombers and fighters right after the war. He owned one of the top 20 air forces in the world at the time. Drained the fuel from the tanks, sold it and nearly paid for the entire purchase.
- oldman
Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman I believe for their "Hollywood" Air Force. They kept the best of the aircraft and scrapped the rest too I believe.
I was talking to a WW2 vet the other day and he made a comment that fits for all those junked airplanes.
All he wanted to do was to get as far away from WW2 as he could. There was nothing romantic or glorious about it for him and he'd survived D-Day, the Breakout and the start of the Lorraine Campaign before being seriously wounded in November 44 and spending 8 months in the hospital.
It seems crazy to us who have 'romanticized' WW2 but consider that not a single Pearl Harbor BB was saved. Nevada was sunk at Bikini. The other survivors were scrapped in the 50s. Imagine one of those preserved in it's spot in Battleship row along with the remains of the Arizona. What a history lesson that would have been to get to walk the decks. The Saratoga was blasted at Bikini. The Enterprise was scrapped. The Franklin would have been a sobering memorial considering her history. All those 100 mission + B17s and 24s were smelted down. Lots of Aces fighter planes cut up. No one was thinking about preserving them for the future. Can't hardly blame them considering what they'd been through.
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All he wanted to do was to get as far away from WW2 as he could. There was nothing romantic or glorious about it for him and he'd survived D-Day, the Breakout and the start of the Lorraine Campaign before being seriously wounded in November 44 and spending 8 months in the hospital.
It seems crazy to us who have 'romanticized' WW2 but consider that not a single Pearl Harbor BB was saved. Nevada was sunk at Bikini. The other survivors were scrapped in the 50s. Imagine one of those preserved in it's spot in Battleship row along with the remains of the Arizona. What a history lesson that would have been to get to walk the decks. The Saratoga was blasted at Bikini. The Enterprise was scrapped. The Franklin would have been a sobering memorial considering her history. All those 100 mission + B17s and 24s were smelted down. Lots of Aces fighter planes cut up. No one was thinking about preserving them for the future. Can't hardly blame them considering what they'd been through.
And yet several US Naval vessels have survived and become museum pieces and several veterns relish their place in history. If you've never been to the Intrepid Museum on the the river in Manhattan I suggest going. It's amazing seeing how the men lived, the galley, walking into the tower, etc. When I was there there were folded wing F6F's and F4U's on the hanger deck and other, later planes on the deck.
When I lived near Albany, NY the USS Slater was docked there, a restored destroyer escort. I couldn't believe how steep the bow deck was. There was a reunion there every year that was relatively well attended given the age of the attendies.
I now live in a building with a 8th AF B-17 gunner who flew 36 missions (I haven't verified this) and he seems genuinley proud.
Also see this post from Widewing in another thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,352597.msg4663386.html#msg4663386
I'm sure there were those who'd rather forget but at the same time I'm thinking you can't generalize like that.
Everything significant in human history should be recorded and preserved to whatever extent possible. It's part of how we learn, grow and move forward.
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The problem a lot of times was money.
Halsey lobbied HARD to save Enterprise, but the funding that was set up to turn her into a museum was pulled at the last minute and another backer couldn't be found. The cost of maintaining Saratoga and Nevada was likely a similar factor in sending them to bikini. LARGE numbers of aircraft were dumped overboard or disposed of overseas to avoid the costs of shipping them back home again.
It costs a LOT of money to maintain these large ships, and the simple, sad fact is that the private foundations that oversee them have to rely on donations from the public and that's barely enough to keep them going. That was one of the BIGGEST obstacles in getting Missouri turned into a museum. That's a damn BIG ship, and it costs a LOT of money to keep her in trim (IIRC, the groups maintaining the Iowas as museum ships are required by the government to keep them in shape so they can be recalled into service if needed. That's a tall order for private money).
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Paul Mantz and Frank Tallman I believe for their "Hollywood" Air Force. They kept the best of the aircraft and scrapped the rest too I believe.
I was talking to a WW2 vet the other day and he made a comment that fits for all those junked airplanes.
All he wanted to do was to get as far away from WW2 as he could. There was nothing romantic or glorious about it for him and he'd survived D-Day, the Breakout and the start of the Lorraine Campaign before being seriously wounded in November 44 and spending 8 months in the hospital.
It seems crazy to us who have 'romanticized' WW2 but consider that not a single Pearl Harbor BB was saved. Nevada was sunk at Bikini. The other survivors were scrapped in the 50s. Imagine one of those preserved in it's spot in Battleship row along with the remains of the Arizona. What a history lesson that would have been to get to walk the decks. The Saratoga was blasted at Bikini. The Enterprise was scrapped. The Franklin would have been a sobering memorial considering her history. All those 100 mission + B17s and 24s were smelted down. Lots of Aces fighter planes cut up. No one was thinking about preserving them for the future. Can't hardly blame them considering what they'd been through.
:airplane: Guppy, I know you know more about it than me, but I thought the battleship USS Maryland survived the war and saw action in Nam! Can you comment on this please!
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:airplane: Guppy, I know you know more about it than me, but I thought the battleship USS Maryland survived the war and saw action in Nam! Can you comment on this please!
Wikipedia says BB-46 was decommissioned on April 3rd, 1947 and sold for scrap on July 8th, 1959.
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I'm really surprised the planes were not sold to private pilots for leisure use. I understand the maintenance issues with the highly engineered engines made for war, but one would think that those Spitfires, P40's, 109's, etc, all could have been refitted with less powerful engines and sold as puddle jumpers and trainers.
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Wait, are we sure these are being disposed of? Looks more like Corky's personal parking space. :D
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The P-38 picture in particular breaks my heart. Ive known WW2 pilots and despite their dislike of war they all had a sincere love for the airplanes. And it became a life long Love they passed on to many of us. Im sure the logistics and costs had to be the deciding factors. Even America had a ton of debt with a whole lot of men heading home wanting a job but you have to figure if such a thing happened today more of history would be saved. At least I hope it would.
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And yet several US Naval vessels have survived and become museum pieces and several veterns relish their place in history. If you've never been to the Intrepid Museum on the the river in Manhattan I suggest going. It's amazing seeing how the men lived, the galley, walking into the tower, etc. When I was there there were folded wing F6F's and F4U's on the hanger deck and other, later planes on the deck.
When I lived near Albany, NY the USS Slater was docked there, a restored destroyer escort. I couldn't believe how steep the bow deck was. There was a reunion there every year that was relatively well attended given the age of the attendies.
I now live in a building with a 8th AF B-17 gunner who flew 36 missions (I haven't verified this) and he seems genuinley proud.
Also see this post from Widewing in another thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,352597.msg4663386.html#msg4663386
I'm sure there were those who'd rather forget but at the same time I'm thinking you can't generalize like that.
Everything significant in human history should be recorded and preserved to whatever extent possible. It's part of how we learn, grow and move forward.
I think I didn't say it very well. Those ships that were preserved, like intrepid, continued to serve long after WW2. There came a time much later when looking back became important. It wasn't at the end of WW2 when all those birds were scrapped. The vets came out of the war wanting to get on wih thier lives and look forward. It wasn't a lack of pride. It was wanting to makeup for lost time.
The preservation movement was much more a 1980s thing when the vets were retiring and looking back was a natural part of growing older.
As for selling the planes back then. You could buy them and a few racing pilots or Hollywood folks did. But there was not going to be thousands of folks doing so.
Understand I've been a WW2 junkie since the mid 60s. When I went Spitfire pilot info hunting and started tracking them down in the 80s, I was the first one who'd asked them about thier experience. It amazed me that no one had asked them sooner.
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:airplane: Guppy, I know you know more about it than me, but I thought the battleship USS Maryland survived the war and saw action in Nam! Can you comment on this please!
The only BBs to see post WW2 were the four Iowa class ships. That includes off Vietnam and Gulf War I
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Understand I've been a WW2 junkie since the mid 60s. When I went Spitfire pilot info hunting and started tracking them down in the 80s, I was the first one who'd asked them about thier experience. It amazed me that no one had asked them sooner.
And bless ya for it. Initiative often outweighs curiosity or even genuine admiration.
Prior to your efforts it's likely that few who appreciated and admired the greatest
generation of our nation (or many) even knew about their reunions, much less thought
they could have the privilege of meeting them in person. I was limited (or thought I was)
to a grandfather and all of his friends at the VFW post.
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The only BBs to see post WW2 were the four Iowa class ships. That includes off Vietnam and Gulf War I
:airplane: JUst to satisfy my curiosity, would you know the names of those 4. I have a neighbor who served on the Maryland right after WW2 and he is curiosity wondering if it is still around.
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Iowa, Missouri, Wisconsin and New Jersey. Illinois and Kentucky were laid down, but never finished.
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:airplane: JUst to satisfy my curiosity, would you know the names of those 4. I have a neighbor who served on the Maryland right after WW2 and he is curiosity wondering if it is still around.
I work with someone who was a battery officer for the Wisconsin and later the gunnery officer for the New Jersey.
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:airplane: JUst to satisfy my curiosity, would you know the names of those 4. I have a neighbor who served on the Maryland right after WW2 and he is curiosity wondering if it is still around.
Maryland, Tennessee, California and West Virginia, all survivors of Pearl lasted until the late 50s in the mothball fleet. They were then scrapped. Most if not all of the retired battlewagons were offered up as potential memorials but no one bit on those. The Texas is the oldest WW2 BB still surviving.
Maryland was made inactive reserve in 1946 and mothballed in 1947. She was scrapped in 1959.
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Ki-78 high speed prototype and bunch of others crushed by M7 Priest...ouch. :(
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Wait, are we sure these are being disposed of? Looks more like Corky's personal parking space. :D
I just knew when I scrolled down that this comment was going to be at the bottom lol :bolt:
Also? I seem to recall they burned most of the "heaps" of piles like Corky's parked P-38's. Does anyone know if they ever just covered the hole? Do we have a hole someplace with Zeros all smashed together? We found Australia' spits boxed up. Should I be using some super duper ground radar looking for a dream?
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Maryland, Tennessee, California and West Virginia, all survivors of Pearl lasted until the late 50s in the mothball fleet. They were then scrapped. Most if not all of the retired battlewagons were offered up as potential memorials but no one bit on those. The Texas is the oldest WW2 BB still surviving.
Preserving old things seems to be a luxury of modern wealth. There is only a single pre-Dreadnought left in the world, and the Russians wanted us to force it be scrapped after WWII. The first Iron Clad, HMS Warrior, only survived by sheer luck. USS Constitution and HMS Victory were both slated for scrapping at one time or another.
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THE 17's! NOOOOOOO :cry
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H.M.S Belfast is still a floating museum upon the Thames adjacent to Tower Bridge.
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THE 17's! NOOOOOOO :cry
:airplane: When Senator McGovern was running for President, he made a speech at the Air Host Inn in Atlanta one day and I was in attendance. He asked for questions after his talk and like a dummy, I stood up and ask him to describe his flying days in B-24's in WW2! His reply: War is Hell and don't any of you dare forget it. I didn't ask anymore questions.
:salute to all our Veterans passed and present!!!
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H.M.S Belfast is still a floating museum upon the Thames adjacent to Tower Bridge.
Yes, but no King George V or Warspite.
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The Texas is the oldest WW2 BB still surviving.
Technically, Texas is a WWI Super-Dreadnought BB and the only remaining Dreadnought in the world AFAIK. As for the difficulty of maintaining these ships you should check out its history as a memorial and the efforts made to preserve her including a massive new effort to get her permanently out of the water. Of the other ships mentioned, it's quite unbelievable to me that what was arguably the most significant US Navy ship ever built, the USS Enterprise, was scrapped. Without her the Pacific war could have ended quite differently.
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Technically, Texas is a WWI Super-Dreadnought BB and the only remaining Dreadnought in the world AFAIK. As for the difficulty of maintaining these ships you should check out its history as a memorial and the efforts made to preserve her including a massive new effort to get her permanently out of the water. Of the other ships mentioned, it's quite unbelievable to me that what was arguably the most significant US Navy ship ever built, the USS Enterprise, was scrapped. Without her the Pacific war could have ended quite differently.
Enterprise was supposed to have been saved, but at the last minute the organization that was going to preserve her withdrew, and replacement funding was unable to be secured. Halsey PERSONALLY scrambled to try and find another backer, but there just wasn't anyone who wanted to put up the money.
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I took a tour (1998) on a Japanese BB once in Yokosuka, Japan. I think it was WW I vintage. I can't remember the name. It wasn't floating though; I think it was encased in cement to avoid the maintenance costs of a floating museum.
V/R and <S>, SWjink
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I took a tour (1998) on a Japanese BB once in Yokosuka, Japan. I think it was WW I vintage. I can't remember the name. It wasn't floating though; I think it was encased in cement to avoid the maintenance costs of a floating museum.
V/R and <S>, SWjink
I've seen that ship myself, it's Mikasa and she's older than WWI vintage. It was built by Vickers for the Japanese and launched in 1900 and is the last surviving pre-dreadnought battleship. She was Tojo's flagship during the battle of the Tsushima Straight against the Russians. This battle really made the West stand up and take notice of Japan's new military capabilities.
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I've seen that ship myself, it's Mikasa and she's older than WWI vintage. It was built by Vickers for the Japanese and launched in 1900 and is the last surviving pre-dreadnought battleship. She was Tojo's flagship during the battle of the Tsushima Straight against the Russians. This battle really made the West stand up and take notice of Japan's new military capabilities.
Yup, she's the one the Russians wanted us to scrap after WWII that I mentioned above. She was already a museum ship at the time and the Russian request was purely for spite due to the Russo-Japanese war, including Tsushima.
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Anyone have an extra 10 million dollars lying around? The USS Olympia needs some TLC.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/USS_Olympia_2.jpg/800px-USS_Olympia_2.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Olympia_%28C-6%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Olympia_%28C-6%29)
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The Olympia is just a few miles from my house. One idea was to sink it so divers could "enjoy" it as a artificial reef.
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The Olympia is just a few miles from my house. One idea was to sink it so divers could "enjoy" it as a artificial reef.
Oh .... HELL .... no. :confused:
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Seems the Russians also have a pre-WWI (and Tsushima survivor) left, the armoured cruiser Aurora.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Aurora_Cruiser_Museum_StPetersburg.JPG/800px-Aurora_Cruiser_Museum_StPetersburg.JPG)
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It's sad to see all those aircraft kept but that costs $$$ and for Germany, it needed every scrap dollar it could get its hands on. Anything serviceable was sold to other countries and anything floating was sold for scrap.
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I think back to all of those W95 games I chunked in the trash can years ago. Someday.
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Seeing all those planes lined up for trashing.. sad..
Worst case is where every last example was scrapped..
The Brits were bad for that, saving enemy types but scrapping all
Tempest, Typhoon & Hornet types 'til none left in Britain..
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One Typhoon at least is left:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Hawker_Typhoon_at_RAF_Museum.jpg/800px-Hawker_Typhoon_at_RAF_Museum.jpg)
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Its amazing that only one Typhoon is left. I understand post war that this stuff wasnt highly regarded but you think considering all it did a few would have been saved. I guess that kind of thinking didnt start until years later. Who would have thought in the 50s and 60s all those cool cars would be worth so much years down the road. Newer and better stuff is always coming along and its nothing more than old junk..........
Check this ship out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_cruiser_Georgios_Averof
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Yeah, the sole Typhoon survivour left,
& only because, like the surviving Sabre Tempest,
- it wasn't in Blighty when they scrapped all the rest..
The Typhoon was at Wright Field stateside - for evaluation purposes.
& went to the Smithsonian,who kindly swapped it for a Hurricane,
- when the Brits belatedly realised what they'd so stupidly done..
You'd think that the Commonwealth countries whose units operated Typhoons & Tempests at great sacrifice during the war ought to have put their hands up for one,
since they readily accepted Nazi war prize aircraft..
& no DH Hornets - zip zero nada nix - remain, I have had the buzz of climbing up into a rare surviving original Mosquito, that a private collector cleverly saved, when they were getting ready to torch the rest of them - in N.Z..
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One Typhoon at least is left:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Hawker_Typhoon_at_RAF_Museum.jpg/800px-Hawker_Typhoon_at_RAF_Museum.jpg)
Tha Typhie is really pretty sitting there all shined up and stuff.
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Yeah, the sole Typhoon survivour left,
& only because, like the surviving Sabre Tempest,
- it wasn't in Blighty when they scrapped all the rest..
The Typhoon was at Wright Field stateside - for evaluation purposes.
& went to the Smithsonian,who kindly swapped it for a Hurricane,
- when the Brits belatedly realised what they'd so stupidly done..
You'd think that the Commonwealth countries whose units operated Typhoons & Tempests at great sacrifice during the war ought to have put their hands up for one,
since they readily accepted Nazi war prize aircraft..
& no DH Hornets - zip zero nada nix - remain, I have had the buzz of climbing up into a rare surviving original Mosquito, that a private collector cleverly saved, when they were getting ready to torch the rest of them - in N.Z..
Is that one under cover now? IIRC it when he first got it, he had to stack corrugated iron ON it to give it some cover from the (daily) rain.
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A museum not to far from me has a fully refurbished P51 suspended from the ceiling via crane wire. The engine was removed, and is somewhere else in the museum. I'm writing this via mobile device, so if you want to see it google auburn military museum in google images and it should show up. :salute
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Who would have thought in the 50s and 60s all those cool cars would be worth so much years down the road. Newer and better stuff is always coming along and its nothing more than old junk..........
The reason they're worth so much is precisely because so few of them were preserved.
I was reading a story online about this same phenomenon in regards to comic books. Once people realized the market for rare books, more people started saving them. Now rare books are less rare than they used to be, so the value has plummeted, even on significant books.
If there were hundreds of thousands of 64 Mustangs out there they wouldn't have NEAR the value they do now, which is at the point where you could buy a brand new 2013 GT model for the same you'd spend on an old junker that needs fixing up.
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(http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/59/73/80/one-of-the-few-good-items.jpg)
The P51 I talked about in my earlier post, She is said to be in flight condition...
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Scherf, the Smith collection in Mapua is well preserved, his Mosquito has been under cover most its life & despite its age - appears very original..
I'd have not liked to jump from one in a hurry though,
emergency egress was not well provided for, with the small hatch
right next to the whirling prop..
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Cheers, thanks for that. Glad to hear about the condition, you're a lucky man ...
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Yes, Smithy does not run an open shop,
& I was certainly fortunate to be in the company of a couple of other
aircraft buffs on the way to the Wanaka Airshow, & who knew him well.
He was pleased to show us his stuff, [inc' P-40 & etc]
- but clambering up into the Mosquito was a real eye opener, it made me wonder why D-H didn't adopt the blown bubble canopy as used on the Typhoon from `43 [ & later on the Hornet] for the Mosquito too, it would have offered a significant improvement - for vision out & bailing out survivability - I`d reckon..
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I believe the SOP was to go out the door in the floor / starboard sight as going out through the canopy was risked contact with the tail structures. Have read of a number of cases of the crew going out through the roof though.
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While it is sad from a archaeological point of view it is understandable from an anthropological point of view.
This generation fought the largest most intense war ever seen on this planet that resulted in the deaths of millions.
What is more impressive is how much of that energy potential created during the conflict was turned towards peace and prosperity for the victorious and even conquered nations after the conflict.
those that survived this era used their newfound industrial capacity to recycle nearly all the weaponry created for the war and turn it into something else.
they were not interested in remembering what happened they were interested in the future as churchill said eloquently "all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands." that's what happened for large portions of these nations.
Some of what this generation grew up reading could also give more of a glimpse of their psychology behind why they destroyed what are now considered priceless artifacts of unimaginable value...
"The old wisdom born out of the west was forsaken. Kings made tombs more splendid than the houses of the living and counted the old names of their descent dearer than the names of their sons.
Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry or in high, cold towers asking questions of the stars. And so the people of Gondor fell into ruin. " -Tolkien
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I tried to read LotR, - finding it impenetrable,
Sven Hassel & Clostermann are much better war fantasy story writers, I.M.O...
& as a bottom line, it would've been a mark of respect to preserve some of each major type.