Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: jeffdn on August 27, 2013, 09:58:41 AM
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Does anyone have solid information about the twin radiators in the late model Bf-109s, including specifically which model they started installing them on? I somewhat frequently get radiator hits in my 109, and it'd be nice to have a way to at least make it home.
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Does anyone have solid information about the twin radiators in the late model Bf-109s, including specifically which model they started installing them on? I somewhat frequently get radiator hits in my 109, and it'd be nice to have a way to at least make it home.
I thought it was all Bf109s that had that feature.
All Spitfires with the symmetrical radiators (Mk VIII, Mk IX, Mk XIV and Mk XVI in AH) had it as well.
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i thought all 109s from the e models forward had twin radiators...but they weren't independent.
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i thought all 109s from the e models forward had twin radiators...but they weren't independent.
They were, gyrene81, and they were actually designed for the exact purpose mentioned in my OP. As they were vulnerable to ground fire, there were independent shutoff valves that enabled the fighter to keep on truckin' with only one radiator.
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I thought it was all Bf109s that had that feature.
All Spitfires with the symmetrical radiators (Mk VIII, Mk IX, Mk XIV and Mk XVI in AH) had it as well.
They were introduced in 1941 with the Bf-109F series.
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The radiators were not meant to continue on if you shut one off. It was to help buy you time to hopefully get closer to friendly lines if possible. Even if the handle was pulled to the shut off valve, they still leaked.
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The radiators were not meant to continue on if you shut one off. It was to help buy you time to hopefully get closer to friendly lines if possible. Even if the handle was pulled to the shut off valve, they still leaked.
It wasn't automatic?
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No, there are handles on each side of the cockpit for you to pull to shut the valves off...
the finn manual of Bf 109 G-2 notes on pg 14, Part 6, Cooling system :
"If either one of the liquid coolers is hit, the damaged cooler must be disconnected from the system immediately by pulling the handles on the left and right in the forward part of the cockpit depending on which the radiators was damaged."
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Spitfire had electrical grids on each radiator that was supposed to detect any penetration and activate the shutoff valve.
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Hey, whaddaywant? The rudder trim "system" on the 109 was the pilot's left foot. ;)
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Hey, whaddaywant? The rudder trim "system" on the 109 was the pilot's left foot. ;)
SSssshhhhh!!! You have them questioning the wheel on the left of the pilot if your not careful
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Bunnys(Ardy) tried to get this implemented a few years ago as a mechanical standard in the K4. Research on it showed that it was a murky area of if it actually got updated into many of the K4 rather than it was a field kit. The piping is there but, the hoses have to be cut and valves inserted which then had manual pull noodles from the cockpit. The K4 cockpit photo that most reference was a factory photo to show a finished cockpit with all that could be available. I could never find diagrams for the factory system nor the field kit.
A very wise response from one player. Hitech takes such things into account, then automates them as part of the engine management process he chose to go with.
From all the time bunnys and I spent looking, here is the only photo found that might be the valves. Notice the hose clamps galore, so the references to being issued as a field upgrade are likely.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img199/9011/ouwd.jpg)
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The radiators were not meant to continue on if you shut one off. It was to help buy you time to hopefully get closer to friendly lines if possible. Even if the handle was pulled to the shut off valve, they still leaked.
Are you sure about that? I was reading an account of a German ace that was forced down behind Russian lines in 1943, and in his account, he describes showing the Soviet ground crew at the field he was taken to the twin radiators and the ability to shut one down, and the amazement the ground crew showed at that technological innovation.
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Page 312 of "Spitfire: The History" by Morgan and Shacklady has three photos and a description of the system introduced with the Mk IX.
I would like to see this damage control measure added for both the Bf109F-4 and later and the Spitfire Mk IX and later in AH.
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It may already be accounted for in the amount of time you have before your engine ceases like all of the other inline engine radiator hit cease up time.
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It's not, unless HTC things you would have about a minute without the system.
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Are you sure about that? I was reading an account of a German ace that was forced down behind Russian lines in 1943, and in his account, he describes showing the Soviet ground crew at the field he was taken to the twin radiators and the ability to shut one down, and the amazement the ground crew showed at that technological innovation.
Well, lets think about it. Once you close off a damaged radiator, you have lost half your cooling efficiency. Plus what ever coolant you lost through the damage, you are really flying on borrowed time. Will it get you a little further, of course, may be even close to the front lines unless your lucky and your near a friendly base. I think it was a smart design, but not something to continue the fight with....
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Well, lets think about it. Once you close off a damaged radiator, you have lost half your cooling efficiency. Plus what ever coolant you lost through the damage, you are really flying on borrowed time. Will it get you a little further, of course, may be even close to the front lines unless your lucky and your near a friendly base. I think it was a smart design, but not something to continue the fight with....
I'm not necessarily saying it's to continue the fight... perhaps it could even disable WEP if one of the radiators was off. It was just a technological innovation that improved pilots of Bf 109s (and evidently Spitfires) chances of survival.
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I'm not necessarily saying it's to continue the fight... perhaps it could even disable WEP if one of the radiators was off. It was just a technological innovation that improved pilots of Bf 109s (and evidently Spitfires) chances of survival.
:aok
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I'm not necessarily saying it's to continue the fight... perhaps it could even disable WEP if one of the radiators was off. It was just a technological innovation that improved pilots of Bf 109s (and evidently Spitfires) chances of survival.
Yup, it isn't so you can continue the fight, it is so you can fly home on cruise settings.
Of course, in AH people would use it to continue to fight and just kill the engine. That may be why it isn't here.
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Yup, it isn't so you can continue the fight, it is so you can fly home on cruise settings.
Of course, in AH people would use it to continue to fight and just kill the engine. That may be why it isn't here.
I try to play as if it is real life. If I'm heavily damaged but still in flying condition, I go home, even if people call it "running". If my engine gets killed, I don't desperately HO everyone on the way down, I glide away from the combat and set down. I would really appreciate the realism such a modification would afford me, especially considering the amount of time I spend in 109s.
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I try to play as if it is real life. If I'm heavily damaged but still in flying condition, I go home, even if people call it "running". If my engine gets killed, I don't desperately HO everyone on the way down, I glide away from the combat and set down. I would really appreciate the realism such a modification would afford me, especially considering the amount of time I spend in 109s.
you're one of a very very small number of people who think that way...the vast majority are more interested in how to game the game to get their name in lights.
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I try to play as if it is real life. If I'm heavily damaged but still in flying condition, I go home, even if people call it "running". If my engine gets killed, I don't desperately HO everyone on the way down, I glide away from the combat and set down. I would really appreciate the realism such a modification would afford me, especially considering the amount of time I spend in 109s.
I do as well, but how many of us do you think there are?
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you're one of a very very small number of people who think that way...the vast majority are more interested in how to game the game to get their name in lights.
Well, all I can say to that is that some people play because it's a great way to waste a lot of time, some play because it's just the game they ended up playing, and the rest play because they freakin' love WWII history. I am a member of the latter group, although the first two apply to me as well. I wish more people felt that way about the game. There is no bigger rush to me than setting up a long-range bomber mission and flying top cover using proper tactics, or being an interceptor going after a similarly set-up group.
I do as well, but how many of us do you think there are?
Not enough, sadly.
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I as well try to play as realistic as I can. To me a lot more fun and Challenging that way....
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I as well try to play as realistic as I can. To me a lot more fun and Challenging that way....
Absolutely, and it doesn't break my sense of immersion. I can't stand when people bomb and bail, or things of that nature.
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Absolutely, and it doesn't break my sense of immersion. I can't stand when people bomb and bail, or things of that nature.
Very true. To me makes no sense. Why fly all that time to drop bombs and then bail out...
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The shut off valve's effect are probably included in the count down time until your engine stops working after a radiator hit. In many cases you seem to gain an oil or fuel hit at the same time though. Ever noticed this game is not IL2 where engine and related systems management is concerned? Our sim models auto management over manual, in favor of combat.
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The shut off valve's effect are probably included in the count down time until your engine stops working after a radiator hit. In many cases you seem to gain an oil or fuel hit at the same time though. Ever noticed this game is not IL2 where engine and related systems management is concerned? Our sim models auto management over manual, in favor of combat.
They are not included. You can, at least on the Spitfire, fly it on a single radiator as long as you limit yourself to cruise power levels. In AH the Spitfire will lose its coolant no differently than the Mossie does and the Mossie did not have two radiators per engine.
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This begs the question then of what sources HTC went with. Factory installed system or field kit retrofitted across active 109 versions. Maybe one of our audience who has those reams of production detail information can check for it being factory installed or field installed. Back when I looked I found mostly anecdotal and some EU blogs the resident guru's argued this to death up to that downed German pilot captured by the Russians flew a field mod kit'd system.
So does anyone have factory production info? Not everyone could get the field kits which were in demand "as available" from what I remember in a German language blog. And many of us are aware some blog's experts are well known on the Internet for their bias's.
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The cutoff valve system was factory installed on the Spits.