Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: BaldEagl on September 15, 2013, 12:37:15 AM
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I posted this in another thread in the General Discussion forum but thought I'd also post it here as a teaching tool.
Here's the pic. Essentially co-E near stall who has the advantage and why?
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/CloseQuarters_zps3b701b19.jpg) (http://s707.photobucket.com/user/imbe/media/CloseQuarters_zps3b701b19.jpg.html)
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Great idea, and I think you're going to get the phone book in terms of opinions.
Looks like a Spit1 vs a 109E, right?
If they are co-E at the moment of the snap, I would personally go with the Spit's position, and here's my reasons. The 109 is inverted, while the Spit is already a little nose up, meaning it'll be easier for the Spit to go uphill and gain an energy and positional advantage by getting on top of the 109 before the 109 can roll and go uphill to do the same. Now, the 109 will be obviously able to go downhill much more quickly than the Spit, especially with the negative G engine cutout- all the 109 pilot needs to do is pull back a little and he'll start gaining a big speed advantage, however he'll also be giving up position by going lower than the Spit while doing so, and even if he does this, all I would do in the Spit seat is a quick roll to the quick side and pull in behind him and chase, probably end up about 4 or 500 yards behind him at a max by the time I would start my dive.
So, that's my opinion, I can't wait to read some of the uber stick's ideas. A lot comes down to pilot skill and aggressiveness too, I've been in that 109 position many times in various 109's and won by just extending a little after pulling into a dive and just outfighting the guy in the Spit position after resetting at 1 or 1.5k yards, but as I said, I think the Spit has a stronger position, considering these 2 planes are very very close in every aspect, and if the pilots were equal/same, as I said, the uphill attitude of the Spit should allow that pilot to get on top and have a commanding positional advantage to dictate how the fight will go.
Great thread idea, I like it.
edit - I see from the other post of this same pic it's from the BoB scenario, maybe you could post the film of this encounter if it was a 1v1 later so we could see how it actually played out for you.
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not enough details :old:
depends on who is flying...
I would assume equal pilots :headscratch:
was the spit coming down and 109 at top of loop-....
so many variables.
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If they're both near stall, I agree with Gman's assessment. The Spit has the opportunity to follow the 109 down at that point.
Wiley.
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misleading screenshot
the spit could be upside down for all we know
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SirNuke and Ink have good points, and I thought about them as well. I based my opinion on the fact that the picture is taken with the earth being level with the bottom of the screen, sort of a default position in external view from the Spitfire's position more or less in the film viewer.
Like I said, pilots being equal is a big thing, as I've been in that 109's spot so many times I can't count. I have a film of Rebull and I fighting in 109's from that almost exact same position, and I ended up getting an inverted shot during our fight when he passed in front of me pretty much exactly where the 109 is in the pic, but with the Spit being out in front more. So two pilots that are decent and really really aggressive fighters, it's a pretty hard one to call. Still, I believe that the Spit does have a slightly better position to either follow the 109 if it chooses to dive and separate, or hit the wep and hold that nose high position even if it is close to stall, and get on top of the 109. One thing I really notice fighting guys like Bruv for example is that they constantly will try and get on top of you, and drag you up, which lowers your E state, which is the key to gaining an advantage of some kind, be it angles, position, whatever.
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I think the Emil has the advantage because if they are both near stall the Spitfire has to nose down and his fuel is going to starve cutting his power and risking a nasty stall while the 109's isn't.
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looks to me like they collide, neither wins and in real life both would have lost.
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Emil. If both are at stall, the Emil is already headed downhill.
- oldman
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Once you get this close lag figures in a lot.
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The Pee51 that zooms in for the pic :D Booyahh! headshot :neener:
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OK so here's more info.
The fight is as it apprears with the Emil rolling over the top of the Spit I. The Emil ends up passing over the top of the Spit canopy to canopy at under 15 yards.
Neither has the excess power to go nose up at this point.
It's not a true one on one as both are in a small (approximately 10 plane) furball but let's set that aside for the purpose of this discussion.
Assume roughly equal pilot skill for the purposes of this discussion.
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You don't say at what alt this engagement takes place, but on the face of it I would say the spit has the advantage. The 109 is already in front of the spits 3-9 line and the spit can follow the 109 down by rolling in behind the 109 as it crosses over the top of the spit. By maintaining positive G the spit can do this without starving the engine of fuel, but in this case the spit's fuel starvation under negative G may even work in it's favor aiding in the ability to roll to the right. At the very least, depending on the altitude (above 16k the spit 1 is faster on MIL power than 109 is on WEP) if the spit has any WEP it can use it's speed at any altitude to separate and reset, or retreat.
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At the exact moment of this screenshot, the Spit has the advantage. As SIK1 said, the 109 is already in front of the spits 3-9 line, and with both planes being near a stall the 109 can't do any climbing moves. But no fight is won until someone is dead and the 109 is very much not dead yet. Both these planes have very bad roll rates at low speeds. The 109 however is inverted and can easily pull back on his stick to get below the spit, dive away, pick up speed, and then reengage from a more advantageous position. The spit will have one heck of a hard time following the 109 into a dive since he'll have to roll over on his back to give chase because he can't push any negative G's; his engine will die out if he does. So he has to use that horrible roll rate at low speeds to roll over into the 109 and by the time he does get his nose around onto the 109, the 109 will have some good seperation, some speed, and more options than what he has in the picture.
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I think the point about the roll rates near stall is probably the most important factor to come out of the ideas so far. I honestly hadn't considered that, and was thinking in terms of regular roll rates of these planes at corner speeds, not near stall, which was stated in the OP. I'd like to test that and see how slow the roll is of the Spit, as it would pertain to rolling and pulling into pursuit behind the 109 should it pull down into a dive, which if it is near stall, is likely the only available option for the guy in the 109...right? I mean, how could he roll any way at near stall speed and have that be an advantage in this situation?
That said, I don't think the 109 pulling into a dive, building up "speed" as has been said, is necessarily that great of an option for the 109 position. All it would be doing is trading alt, if it's available, again, as someone said, we don't know the alt available, but let's assume this is at 20k as it's in the scenario where most met at mid to higher alts. So, the 109 diving, again, is just trading alt for speed, until the motor can start pulling the plane through the air, which takes time, the 109 isn't going to be increasing it's E state compared to the Spit by diving at all. The Spit driver isn't going to sit frozen in time and space while the 109 dives, levels out, and builds up E to re engage - if he has any brains at all he'll roll and pull in behind the diving 109, which he should be able to do as he is behind that 3 to 9 line and has that advantage already as others have said. Either that or continue to let his own E state build while the 109 dives, staying on top of the fight by doing so, again, gaining an advantage E state and positionally as well. Even if the motor does cut out for a few seconds in the Spit, so long as he doesn't stall and go into a spin, no big deal, an instant without power isn't going to put the Spit into a position where it is at a disadvantage in this situation. Again, though like I first said, and Latrobe said as well, the 109 isn't dead yet, and again, I've been in that spot and come out on top many times, but there's many variables to that, and if I had to put money on a fight, I would take the Spit's spot every time if I had to pick a seat to jump into.
I looked at the event logs to see if it would give any light to who one this encounter, but Zacherof both killed and was killed by Spit1's in the last frame, numerous times between Lefty69, Loki, and Guthrie, so without knowing which name BaldEagle is, it's hard to say which fight this is from, and if the Spit in this situation won or lost, but I'm betting won.
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Which way the 109 dives is also important. E management is key. More turn, higher G's = more E used. Smaller turn, lower G's = less E used. It looks like the 109 is crossing close to 90 degrees left to right in front of the spit. So diving below the spit and pulling towards his tail would pull a turn close to or less than 90 degrees from his current flight path, and he can pull very few G's doing it. The spit (if he wants to keep on the 109s tail) has to roll his plane (since an immelman is impossible at these speeds) and pull a full 180... possibly even at 7-9 G turn.
109 - shallower turn, less G's = less E used
Spit - tighter turn, higher G's = more E used.
I also think the 109E is a better diver than a Spit 1 (not sure though), so he'll get a bit more E with that advantage as well. Yes, diving does use up alt and if you're put onto the deck then you lose half of your options, but in this situation it looks like the best option for him that I can see. If he continues straight then the spit will turn onto his six. If he tries to roll over and climb then the spit will get him before he can even roll over. If he tries to roll away from the spit as if trying to line up an overshoot shot then he gives the spit his 6. Not sure of the separation between them here, but if they're both near a stall then the spit would have to be wicked close to force an overshoot this way.
Getting into a turn fight with a Spit 1 in your Emil is not un-winnable, but it will be very difficult. This 109 has obviously made a mistake and is in a very very bad spot. Diving for speed and separation, disengaging, and then re-positioning from a better position looks like his best option IMO. Just my thoughts. Might not be the right one, most definitely not the only option available either.
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OK so here's more information:
The fight is at relatively low altitude but with enough that both pilots have vertical space with which to work (5-6Kish).
I (BaldEagle) am in the Spit I and Zacherof is in the Emil. This encounter never reaches a conclusion as both pilots end up flying after different targets but there's enough film right after this picture to draw a conclusion as to who had the advantage.
I hope there's some new guys or others who want to improve their dogfighting skills reading all this as it's been a good discussion.
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but there's enough film
We want film!
As I said, I agree with Latrobe, and that diving is really the only option for the 109 like I said before, and it isn't that great of one. It's not a 1v1 as stated, so the 109 if it does create enough separation, the Spit may find a better target and choose to engage that, which would be about the only thing that would keep that 109 alive vs a competent Spit pilot in this situation.
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In a dive the spit 1 ultimately has the advantage as it can maintain control far longer than the 109. With the fight being at 5-6k not real sure that Vne would become a factor for either plane.
If it was a 1v1 and I was in the spit 1 I would WEP up and continue flying in the direction I'm already pointed in as the 109 has to try to reacquire my six, and all the maneuvers would bleed his E while I'm building mine. Once I had sufficient E and assuming I still have WEP available I would start a climbing turn. Being under 8k the spit has a significant climb advantage over the Emil with WEP. If I didn't have WEP available it would depend on what the Emil does, but if he flies smart and is working for position while conserving his E I would probably extend and try and reset my position.
If I'm the Emil I roll out slightly nose down but not much trying to maintain as much of my altitude as I can, and using a left hand roll so the torque helps with the roll. If the spit tries to follow me he will burn tons of E because it is a right hand 90* turn for him, and by the time he completes his turn I should have built enough E that I can start a gentle left hand climbing turn where, because he bled his E with the right hand flat turn, he can't follow me up. If the spit flies like I described I would do above I would continue away from him trying to work my way up above 8K where the Emil has the climb advantage.
With the situation being as BaldEagl describes them I feel that the spit has the advantage, but only slightly as both planes are very well matched against each other and a mistake by either pile-it could bring about his demise.
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My take on this based simply on the picture and the facts stated is that the Spit has the advantage. He can roll right into lag pursuit gaining E along the way, however the 109 has an opportunity to dive straight out opening the door to an egress as long as he does so early enough. This is also roughly how the post picture fight played out.
I'll be posting films of this and was working to edit the film (3+ hours) last night but time is an issue and there's a subsequent encounter in this same fight that I'd like to address before posting the film.
Stay tuned. Hopefully I'll get it done this week sometime.
Until then thanks to everyone who responded.
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Great, good stuff, I'm interested to see the film. This thread was a pretty cool idea if you ask me, a still snapshot of a couple of aircraft in a fight, and the OP's question about who is in a more advantageous position.
I've been looking through some of my own films trying to find something similar, I'd love it if some more guys who are very knowledgeable about ACM and can be excellent at relating the information to others would post something similar, or at least weigh in with their opinions about this OP and hopefully other ones just like BE's idea. Mace jumps immediately to mind, as well as the others who have taken the time to contribute their knowledge and insights.
Again, great idea for a thread, and hurry up with that film, hah.
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looks to me like they collide, neither wins and in real life both would have lost.
system: you have collided with...
system: ...has collided with you
after a few seconds of "ace pilot ho'ing noob" in texts...fight over.
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For the life of me I can't recall which encounter this one. Was it towards the end if the frame over water?
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So hard to tell by that photograph. In the spirit of the OP, I'm going to read the thread after this post.
To me, it looks like the spit could be fairly well into his loop, with the 109 already coming down from the top of his. If this is the case, I'd give the 109 the advantage in the immediate future, simply because the Spit is entering the slowest part of his maneuver. Long term, however, I'd say the spit is in a position of advantage, simply because its a stall fight, and the spit is a bit more maneuverable.
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So hard to tell by that photograph. In the spirit of the OP, I'm going to read the thread after this post.
To me, it looks like the spit could be fairly well into his loop, with the 109 already coming down from the top of his. If this is the case, I'd give the 109 the advantage in the immediate future, simply because the Spit is entering the slowest part of his maneuver. Long term, however, I'd say the spit is in a position of advantage, simply because its a stall fight, and the spit is a bit more maneuverable.
I too look forward to the film
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For the life of me I can't recall which encounter this one. Was it towards the end if the frame over water?
Yes it was low over water near the French coast and near the end of the frame.
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Well I was going to post the film but Mediafire won't let me copy the link. It just keeps locking up my computer. Anyone know of a better file sharing site?
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Nevermind. I found one.
Here's the other thing I wanted to share.
Quite a long time ago there was a thread on convergence. To make a long story short I was, after explaining the reasons I like long convergence, mentioning how many of my kills occur as I rake a plane from nose to tail on a planeform crossing shot generally getting a pilot kill. I was asked to post a film but I don't film in the MA and soon tired of looking through DA and scenario engagements.
Well at long last here's at least a similar shot although this time the enemy gives me a more difficult side profile rather than a planeform shot. I still start near the nose smoking his engine and end slightly behind the cockpit getting a pilot wound that forces him to bail.
Here's where I'm pretty sure I'm lined up to get the shot (my sight picture):
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/LinedUp_zpsd0232300.jpg) (http://s707.photobucket.com/user/imbe/media/LinedUp_zpsd0232300.jpg.html)
This is just as I start to fire:
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/StartFiring_zps464f5d18.jpg) (http://s707.photobucket.com/user/imbe/media/StartFiring_zps464f5d18.jpg.html)
And this is the end result:
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/EndGame_zpsbd1bba4a.jpg) (http://s707.photobucket.com/user/imbe/media/EndGame_zpsbd1bba4a.jpg.html)
I've included both engagements in this very short film. Although I was wrong in that in the me vs Zacherof shot I was actually the one inverted, as it was presented I still liked the concept of the pic I posted, the question and the discussion.
http://wikisend.com/download/970068/BoB Frame 2_Final Engagement_0354.ahf
No egos here. It was a furball type of environment where anything can happen but I think you'll find it entertaining and hopefully at least a little educational.
P.S. the link looks screwy but it works.
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Damn you :old:
That was third time I bailed and in the same spot as the other 2 :rofl
Luckily ther was a pt boat right there
:salute
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I'd say the spitfire regardless of the situation purely because it will eventually out turn the e-mil.
I can quite merrily stay out of guns and the 109 driver has to do everything in his power to get guns on, bleeding E the whole time, making matters worse for him. The only things going for the e-mil is stick stirring a negative G overshoot (gamey) and the 20mm cannon from close in can make a kill with less rounds than the spit. Also sliding the cockpit view to the left removes the blocking gunsite and restrictive over the nose view.
I've had alot of fun flying the 109 against squaddies in practice but it just isn't a spitfire. The stall problem is exaggerated because once enough stick time is spent you know exactly when it is going to go and counter act it. There are lots of variations of it too and the really severe one, dropping down vertically with 0 air speed up side down, can be recovered with enough altitude by cross controlling and then catching once you get enough airspeed to force the nose down.