Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: 33Vortex on September 16, 2013, 12:39:47 PM
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Ok, so we have the D-9 in the game. Everyone are or at least should be quite well aware of it, what it can do etc and it is a fact that it is one of the more popular aircraft in the AH inventory. However there were three more main FW190D versions the D-11, D-12 and D-13. These types are all really the same aircraft as the D-9 with the main difference that it has the Junker Jumo 213E engine, instead of the 213A. It is the same engine that we have in AH already in the Ta152H.
Development of the FW190 line of a/c progressed much the same way the P47 designations did (P47D-11, D-25 and so on). Now, some 17 D-11s were manufactured, only three D-12s because it was cancelled in favor of the D-13 of which it is deemed probable 17 or more were manufactured but it is unknown if they saw combat. The only difference between the three types is armament otherwise they are identical. This makes for 30 or more manufactured, the D-11 did see combat that is confirmed as JV44s Platzschutzstaffel downed a P47 with one D-11.
The differences vs the much more common and well known D-9 are:
Larger air intake because of the Jumo 213E and flat cowling gun access panel since they were deleted (same nose as on the Ta152H) on all models.
D-11, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + 2 x outboard Mk108.
D-12, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + single Mk108 motorkanone (identical setup to the Ta152H we have).
D-13, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + single MG151/20 motorkanone.
The point is that these three are the same aircraft except in armament. It is also known that these armament modifications could be made in the field, so a D-11 could become a D-13 or D-12 simply by swapping cannons around. The most famous Dora today is a D-13, Yellow 10 of JG26 Kommodore Franz Götz now in the hands of the Flying Heritage Collection, in flyable condition yet never flown. As a sidenote they also own the only BMW801D powered FW190A remaining to this day.
Introduction of the later Dora models were not as if a unit received a new aircraft type, the new types were mixed with the more common D-9 for obvious reasons. It is the same aircraft with the only significant difference being the engine upgrade.
Now in light of the state of the game I know how this comes across. The discussion on late Luftwaffe planes seem to be never ending on these boards. However I think the addition should interest HTC in that it requires minimal work to include it, and the marketing aspect. This of course, without knowing what HTC is working on in terms of features and upgrades to strengthen the marketing position. However it is my take on it that most of the requested Luftwaffe rides that appear time and time again here require not only a new model, but also a flight model to be built without any data available, besides the fact that the requested type many times never saw combat. Personally I'm a huge fan of the 152 series and the C in particular, but I don't hope to see that one in AH any time soon. The later D models however are not a stretch, they are essentially identical to the D-9 but deserve a perk for the engine upgrade which is no small affair in terms of performance improvement over the D-9.
So I make a wish for any of the later D models to be included, but D-11 or D-13 would be most logical. I don't know if HTC see this as worthwhile but one thing is for sure, if it was added it would satisfy the Luftwaffe crowd in this game probably for a long time ahead.
To my peers, the addition in question would not be a super bomber killer, a D-13 would be worse off at altitude than the Ta152H heavier than the D-9 but faster. D-13 much the same as D-9 only faster so I guess it would be a pony killer, but I guess we have several pony killers in the game already such as the F4U-4. The historical rarity and performance does warrant a perk penalty, but that is all.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8317/8039349622_822ca28a8e_z.jpg)
Here is the only surviving and still airworthy Dora in the world. The D-13 of Franz Götz Geschwaderkommodore JG26. It is the same aircraft that was tested post-war in mock air combat against a Tempest V, for the occasion piloted by Major Heinz Lange (10 flights in a D-9) who was not informed it was a D-13 he was flying and not a D-9.
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Good lord that is a beautiful aircraft.
Since 33vortex did not beg, I will.
Please give us the 190D11.
Please give us the 190D13.
Please give us the TA152-C.
If you give us the TA152-C I promise to shoot down only 2 of the bombers I engaged in a set of 3 and then let the last one return to base.
I promise to be good and do my chores.
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We need earlier Fw190s, not later "what-if" versions.
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Add them with a small perk cost. I think they would make a nice addition to the game.
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We need earlier Fw190s, not later "what-if" versions.
How is the D13 shown in the Photograph a what-if version.
And I'm also quite sure the guy that Gotz shot down would rather still be alive (if he didn't successfully bail out) had the D11 what iffed not been real.
C'mon what's a few more 190's going to hurt the game. There will still be the same number of pilots flying them, just a few different models to choose from.
How many different Spitfire's do we have? How many F4's? How many P47's?
:)
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190D-11 was not put into production according to Schiffer - Biography of Kurt Tank. Prototype was scheduled for weaposn testing but was lost in a crash 9 October 1944. The second Prototype V60 underwent flight testing from November 1944 and onward. Heavy effort was put into the D-11 program but despite the effort it never was put into production and development did not exceed beyond Prototypes.
Three Prototypes from the A-8 series were provided for the 190D-12 (V-62, V-63 and V64) all were equipt with the Jumo 213E. The Aircraft had been converted to the D-12 standard at Adelheide along with the V-62 which had a weapons configuration test. Aircrafts were cleared for operational flying in October/november in 1944. Half were armed with the Mk108 and other half MG151. Half of the production of prototypes built were to have four additional fuel tanks added (totalling 315 liters), however this concept was not implemented until the production of the Ta-152 started.
It does not give me how many were produced, however it says "During production" which means I need to follow up on this.
Dora D-13 - two prototypes were converted from the A-8 series for the Fw-190D-13, the two were cleared for flight testing November and december 1944. Does not say if any were producted.
190D-14 blueprints and construction documents were completed around March 1945 same with 190D-15.
I don't seem to have any production numbers on these either, anyone have them?
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At least (17) D-13's were produced. (W.Nr 732053 - 732070) Some were D-11, D-12 converts. At least two saw limited action. A beautiful ride, maybe the most beuatiful, and certainly not a what if...but we do need earlier 190's more...and modifications to the existing ones as well.
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We need earlier Fw190s, not later "what-if" versions.
These are not what-ifs.
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These are not what-ifs.
Nor are they must-haves.
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At least (17) D-13's were produced. (W.Nr 732053 - 732070) Some were D-11, D-12 converts. At least two saw limited action. A beautiful ride, maybe the most beuatiful, and certainly not a what if...but we do need earlier 190's more...and modifications to the existing ones as well.
This I have to agree with. The request still stand though. The later D models are not what-if's, they were produced in numbers exceeding squadron strength and introduced into units already equipped with the D-9.
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Nor are they must-haves.
Missed again, where did I say they are must haves? Besides, are there any must haves? Was the He111 a must-have to play BoB? Are underpants a must-have to fly AH?
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These are not what-ifs.
Yes they are. They are "what if Focke-Wulf had produced and delivered them in quantities." type what ifs. Not the Ta183 type of what if.
Where does this sort of thing end? Seventeen D-13s and two saw limited action? How many other fighters and bombers would this push onto the table?
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This I have to agree with. The request still stand though. The later D models are not what-if's, they were produced in numbers exceeding squadron strength and introduced into units already equipped with the D-9.
I know roughly 700 doras were produced, however I have no numbers for anything more then the D-9 - most of the D-11 and on were prototypes and there were quite a few prototypes. For example those 17 D-13s were used to test various gun packages and differences (like the wing fuel tanks that later was put on the Ta-152)
If they were just starting the testing phase in November/December 1944, how many really could of been produced by January 1945?
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Missed again, where did I say they are must haves? Besides, are there any must haves? Was the He111 a must-have to play BoB? Are underpants a must-have to fly AH?
I would never fly if that were the case...
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Yes they are. They are "what if Focke-Wulf had produced and delivered them in quantities." type what ifs. Not the Ta183 type of what if.
Where does this sort of thing end? Seventeen D-13s and two saw limited action? How many other fighters and bombers would this push onto the table?
In that context AH is the biggest what-if. Following your own logic, how can you even stand flying in the MA?
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In that context AH is the biggest what-if. Following your own logic, how can you even stand flying in the MA?
Are you a lawyer? You know what I meant and you are choosing to be pedantic.
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I hesitated to even post what I did, knowing this thread would digress.
Can't we just say...Wow...what a beauty. Admire the aircraft for what it is/was. I wish more saw action, but considering the chaos in Germany 1945, it wasn't to be.
No need to split hairs over the 'What if' term. Obviously the plane existed and arguably meets AH standards for inclusion. No need for Luftphobia from anyone...Turner is posting his hearts desire...this is the forum for that.
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I hesitated to even post what I did, knowing this thread would digress.
Can't we just say...Wow...what a beauty. Admire the aircraft for what it is/was. I wish more saw action, but considering the chaos in Germany 1945, it wasn't to be.
No need to split hairs over the 'What if' term. Obviously the plane existed and arguably meets AH standards for inclusion. No need for Luftphobia from anyone...Turner is posting his hearts desire...this is the forum for that.
That sounds worse than Reefer Madness!!!
:noid
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Luftphobia?
Is that where one wants Luftwaffe aircraft that were produced in large numbers to be added but thinks German aircraft produced in single digit/low double digit numbers ought to be at the bottom of any list along with American, British, Russian, Italian and Japanese aircraft produced in single digit/low double digit numbers?
Ok then.
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Ok, so we have the D-9 in the game. Everyone are or at least should be quite well aware of it, what it can do etc and it is a fact that it is one of the more popular aircraft in the AH inventory. However there were three more main FW190D versions the D-11, D-12 and D-13. These types are all really the same aircraft as the D-9 with the main difference that it has the Junker Jumo 213E engine, instead of the 213A. It is the same engine that we have in AH already in the Ta152H.
Development of the FW190 line of a/c progressed much the same way the P47 designations did (P47D-11, D-25 and so on). Now, some 17 D-11s were manufactured, only three D-12s because it was cancelled in favor of the D-13 of which it is deemed probable 17 or more were manufactured but it is unknown if they saw combat. The only difference between the three types is armament otherwise they are identical. This makes for 30 or more manufactured, the D-11 did see combat that is confirmed as JV44s Platzschutzstaffel downed a P47 with one D-11.
The differences vs the much more common and well known D-9 are:
Larger air intake because of the Jumo 213E and flat cowling gun access panel since they were deleted (same nose as on the Ta152H) on all models.
D-11, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + 2 x outboard Mk108.
D-12, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + single Mk108 motorkanone (identical setup to the Ta152H we have).
D-13, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + single MG151/20 motorkanone.
The point is that these three are the same aircraft except in armament. It is also known that these armament modifications could be made in the field, so a D-11 could become a D-13 or D-12 simply by swapping cannons around. The most famous Dora today is a D-13, Yellow 10 of JG26 Kommodore Franz Götz now in the hands of the Flying Heritage Collection, in flyable condition yet never flown. As a sidenote they also own the only BMW801D powered FW190A remaining to this day.
Introduction of the later Dora models were not as if a unit received a new aircraft type, the new types were mixed with the more common D-9 for obvious reasons. It is the same aircraft with the only significant difference being the engine upgrade.
Now in light of the state of the game I know how this comes across. The discussion on late Luftwaffe planes seem to be never ending on these boards. However I think the addition should interest HTC in that it requires minimal work to include it, and the marketing aspect. This of course, without knowing what HTC is working on in terms of features and upgrades to strengthen the marketing position. However it is my take on it that most of the requested Luftwaffe rides that appear time and time again here require not only a new model, but also a flight model to be built without any data available, besides the fact that the requested type many times never saw combat. Personally I'm a huge fan of the 152 series and the C in particular, but I don't hope to see that one in AH any time soon. The later D models however are not a stretch, they are essentially identical to the D-9 but deserve a perk for the engine upgrade which is no small affair in terms of performance improvement over the D-9.
So I make a wish for any of the later D models to be included, but D-11 or D-13 would be most logical. I don't know if HTC see this as worthwhile but one thing is for sure, if it was added it would satisfy the Luftwaffe crowd in this game probably for a long time ahead.
To my peers, the addition in question would not be a super bomber killer, a D-13 would be worse off at altitude than the Ta152H heavier than the D-9 but faster. D-13 much the same as D-9 only faster so I guess it would be a pony killer, but I guess we have several pony killers in the game already such as the F4U-4. The historical rarity and performance does warrant a perk penalty, but that is all.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8317/8039349622_822ca28a8e_z.jpg)
Here is the only surviving and still airworthy Dora in the world. The D-13 of Franz Götz Geschwaderkommodore JG26. It is the same aircraft that was tested post-war in mock air combat against a Tempest V, for the occasion piloted by Major Heinz Lange (10 flights in a D-9) who was not informed it was a D-13 he was flying and not a D-9.
:rolleyes: What? More 190's to shoot down my bombers! Shame on you sir! BTW, great pic of 190, I have added it to my collection of over 350 aircraft!
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Obviously the plane existed and arguably meets AH standards for inclusion. No need for Luftphobia from anyone...Turner is posting his hearts desire...this is the forum for that.
I don't see anyone with Luftphobia, surely wouldn't be me since I posted this same topic years ago which I was given my first taste of "No its a prototype" - before then I had no books or material to read, rather speaking I am trying to find proof it was more then a prototype. To meet AH Standards it cannot be a prototype, after all we are discussing it right? If you would post for the Fw-190A3, A6 or A9 I could easily say YES! However If we allow something that didn't even get out of the prototype stage, this will open a can of worms of other aircrafts such as "On the way to the pacific theater, but did not fly a combat sortie".
Beautiful aircraft indeed, Tank's ability to design was amazing, I wish he was able to improve on the design especially the Dora - would of been interesting to see what happened in 1945 or 46.
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It was not a prototype, that is rubbish. So if the D-11, D-12, D-13 were all prototypes, what the F was the D-9?
Can you understand that the aircraft were identical to the D-9, which was fielded and saw combat in significant numbers. The modification in the Jumo 213E installation was NOT a big redesign, it was the same engine as the 213A only upgraded in performance. The D-12 was not awarded a production contract, for whatever reason, but the D-11 and D-13 were ordered to be manufactured in series of ~800 aircraft each.
Sounds much like a prototype to you?
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It was not a prototype, that is rubbish. So if the D-11, D-12, D-13 were all prototypes, what the F was the D-9?
Well the Dora 9 was produced with around 700 built this is a fact, I have no information on any production aircraft beyond that - only that even in April 1945 the final batch of Dora 9s were handed to Jagddgeschwader 6 "Horst Wessel" with over 140 aircraft handed to them and only 4 at a time were flown into combat due to shortage of fuel since priority were given to Jets.
Gerhard Barkhorn was in charge of JG6 on April 1945, either he can't tell difference between aircraft or his standing orders were for 4 Dora 9s to be flown on Combat patrols? Why was he not given D-11s or D-13s if they were in production? why would the factories produce specifically Dora 9s on April 1945?
Perhaps he couldn't tell the difference, its a possibility as Heinz Lange, I am just trying to find information on the series not to be insulted or attacked over it, but you are offering no information to show proof they were in fact built?
Does anyone have information? I am not against the D-11 or D-13, but I have no proof they were built, this is after all a discussion board, can we not find the information together rather then just piss and argue for no reason?
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It wasn't a prototype. It was, however, completely irrelevant and would represent a new low in the level of bar needing to be leapt to get added. Perhaps someday all of the much more significant aircraft will have been added and that bar height will be appropriate, but right now you have aircraft that would clear the bar with miles of air under them that still haven't been added.
Talking about the D-11, D-12 and D-13 in the Planes and Vehicles forum would net you a very different discussion than posting a thread titled "Making a case for later D models" in the Wishlist forum. They are good looking fighters, no doubt.
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It wasn't a prototype.
So they were built and flown into combat then? I have a few books on the dora series but nothing givens me anything more then what changes they made - most start out "prototype blah blah" and thats it, no records or information on them.
Always been curious about them, but I just never got any information, in fact I only have one small book on the Ta-152 series and doesn't even mention the Dora.
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You can have them if I can have a Spitfire XII, Spitfire LF IX with Universal full span wing and a Seafire LFIII :)
The argument for my three is far stronger than your three as well :aok
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So they were built and flown into combat then? I have a few books on the dora series but nothing givens me anything more then what changes they made - most start out "prototype blah blah" and thats it, no records or information on them.
Always been curious about them, but I just never got any information, in fact I only have one small book on the Ta-152 series and doesn't even mention the Dora.
I don't know if they were flown into combat, but that isn't what defines a prototype as a prototype. If it was ordered into series production then it was out of prototype. The Zero's successor was the A7M and Mitsubishi, reportedly, built all of 7 of them. It never came close to seeing action, but it wasn't a prototype anymore either as it had been accepted by the IJN and ordered into production.
You can have them if I can have a Spitfire XII, Spitfire LF IX with Universal full span wing and a Seafire LFIII :)
The argument for my three is far stronger than your three as well :aok
You'd need to be asking for the Spitfire F.21 to be making an equivalent request.
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You can have them if I can have a Spitfire XII, Spitfire LF IX with Universal full span wing and a Seafire LFIII :)
The argument for my three is far stronger than your three as well :aok
Yes, yes and yes, more flavor for everyone. This just happens to be my flavor.
Butcher the Platzschutzstaffel of JV44 downed a P47 with one of their D-11s. And they were not prototypes because they were contracted. I'll see if I can find a proper source on that, right now I'm busy with this...
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/fc0a/arupthw78h9f2vv6g.jpg)
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Butcher,
I was wondering as well why you call the D-13 a prototype...when two known examples (WNr 350168 and 836017) posted above, of field deployed units are documented. In case you did not know this, and I kind of think you do...when the Wrk order # changes for the same aircraft...it is because that aircraft has gone from testing to deployment. The mere fact of that alone, coupled with the obvious deployment to Stab JG26...discounts prototype stage.
Not all D-11's were prototypes either. Obviously Red 4 of JV44 was kombat deployed...and two more have been found as well.
I am not arguing with your desire for earlier 190's...that's for sure...nor with anything you are saying except the prototype comment. I am sure you,...like me truly hope more information is found/discovered some day....and likely it will, as more and more great stuff is uncovered seemingly daily.
<S>
Butcher....what would you like to know about the D-series? I can help you.
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Yes, yes and yes, more flavor for everyone. This just happens to be my flavor.
Butcher the Platzschutzstaffel of JV44 downed a P47 with one of their D-11s. And they were not prototypes because they were contracted. I'll see if I can find a proper source on that, right now I'm busy with this...
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/fc0a/arupthw78h9f2vv6g.jpg)
Nice losses, I take it you are playing the Luftwaffe! I am on turn 85 of 700 as allies right now (First time as an Allied player for it). Make sure you crank out those Ta-152s :)
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I don't know if they were flown into combat, but that isn't what defines a prototype as a prototype. If it was ordered into series production then it was out of prototype. The Zero's successor was the A7M and Mitsubishi, reportedly, built all of 7 of them. It never came close to seeing action, but it wasn't a prototype anymore either as it had been accepted by the IJN and ordered into production.
You'd need to be asking for the Spitfire F.21 to be making an equivalent request.
I was saving the 21 for later
I figure a Spit HF VII with the extended wing tips was next as that's got more combat time than the 152 or any of the D models in question :)
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Nice losses, I take it you are playing the Luftwaffe! I am on turn 85 of 700 as allies right now (First time as an Allied player for it). Make sure you crank out those Ta-152s :)
House rules prevent me from researching the 152s before I have D-9s operational. This is my second PBEM game and my opponent is very good, it will get very interesting later on that's for sure.
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Butcher,
I was wondering as well why you call the D-13 a prototype...when two known examples (WNr 350168 and 836017) posted above, of field deployed units are documented. In case you did not know this, and I kind of think you do...when the Wrk order # changes for the same aircraft...it is because that aircraft has gone from testing to deployment. The mere fact of that alone, coupled with the obvious deployment to Stab JG26...discounts prototype stage.
Not all D-11's were prototypes either. Obviously Red 4 of JV44 was kombat deployed...and two more have been found as well.
I am not arguing with your desire for earlier 190's...that's for sure...nor with anything you are saying except the prototype comment. I am sure you,...like me truly hope more information is found/discovered some day....and likely it will, as more and more great stuff is uncovered seemingly daily.
<S>
Butcher....what would you like to know about the D-series? I can help you.
Any information or books would be helpful, I mostly keep PDF files these days - most of my stuff I bought online are so old most I am afraid to even open (I did convert a few hundred books and magazines to PDF just to keep them safe).
Like everyone else, my quest is for knowledge - dunno why I have a knack for wanting to know exact numbers, placements - Oh this unit got so so and flew this" something many books won't even tell you - for example Schiffers Kurt Tank goes into details of the D-13 but only tells about prototypes were built as "production was scheduled to begin December" however its noted that the 30mm MK108 was dropped instead a 15mm MG151 was fitted over the engine in Adelheide, supplmented by two additional mg 151's in the wing roots.
Is there any information On d-13s carrying 15mms ? This is the kinda stuff I am trying to narrow down to find fact or fiction. Why the hell would Dora 9-13's carry a 15mm? Aircraft numbers were V65(350165) and V71 (350167)
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House rules prevent me from researching the 152s before I have D-9s operational. This is my second PBEM game and my opponent is very good, it will get very interesting later on that's for sure.
Good luck, I have the same house rule with my opponent - Dora 9 before Ta-152s otherwise it ends up like one of my previous PBEMs where I get flooded by Ta-152s and cannot do anything in may 1944 :)
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Is there any information On d-13s carrying 15mms ? This is the kinda stuff I am trying to narrow down to find fact or fiction. Why the hell would Dora 9-13's carry a 15mm? Aircraft numbers were V65(350165) and V71 (350167)
I suspect a typo on that one, the MG151/20 was a 20 mm cannon as we all know. Perhaps there was a mixup with the original MG151 by the author or someone else?
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Vortex :aok :aok One of the best posts in the Wishlist forum.
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I suspect a typo on that one, the MG151/20 was a 20 mm cannon as we all know. Perhaps there was a mixup with the original MG151 by the author or someone else?
There is an MG151/15 15mm cannon as well. It was not much used, and it was too large to be placed in a space sized for an MG131 13mm gun.
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There is an MG151/15 15mm cannon as well. It was not much used, and it was too large to be placed in a space sized for an MG131 13mm gun.
It does say that MK 108s were in high demand, MG151/15 were used in its place. Perhaps this stage in the war 108s going to everything else (Jets) that they were scrounging for other weapons just to get frames built?
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Any information or books would be helpful, I mostly keep PDF files these days - most of my stuff I bought online are so old most I am afraid to even open (I did convert a few hundred books and magazines to PDF just to keep them safe).
Like everyone else, my quest is for knowledge - dunno why I have a knack for wanting to know exact numbers, placements - Oh this unit got so so and flew this" something many books won't even tell you - for example Schiffers Kurt Tank goes into details of the D-13 but only tells about prototypes were built as "production was scheduled to begin December" however its noted that the 30mm MK108 was dropped instead a 15mm MG151 was fitted over the engine in Adelheide, supplmented by two additional mg 151's in the wing roots.
Is there any information On d-13s carrying 15mms ? This is the kinda stuff I am trying to narrow down to find fact or fiction. Why the hell would Dora 9-13's carry a 15mm? Aircraft numbers were V65(350165) and V71 (350167)
:) Yeah...you have the sickness...but unfortunately due to the nature of the final months of the war...those exact particulars...will almost certainly never be known.
Books? Jerry Crandall covers the 190 as well as anyone. A bibliography on Kurt Tank? Not the right way to find the answers you seek. While informative sometimes...the deeper information must usually be lifted out of existing archives and cross referenced several times with collaborating records such as inventories, orders, pilot, and gruppen records in order to make a "likely" or most "probable" conclusion. Certainly nothing was standardized or black and white in the closing months. The surviving experten and men tasked with testing these aircraft were all friends...desperately trying to get these designs rolling and to the front. An example would be Bruno Stolle's efforts to get his mates in the Stab of JG11 a few Ta152's before the end. This type of unofficial deployment was happening more and more frequently as only one thing would keep these men alive to the end, and that was speed. Under the conditions of the airspace over Germany at the time...only speed would see one through...and so they tried to get these planes operational...anyway possible.
Remember don't confuse production numbers with the actual existence of the aircraft. These planes were built...sent to be tested and evaluated at the training facilities. They were war time flown. The two D-11's White <58, and White <61 are examples of this type of deployment. And the final sorties of many of these aircraft are the most elusive to nail down and fascinating because in the closing hours of the war...men were fleeing west...in anything that would fly...as the recovery locations of these aircraft attest too.
Yes a typo I would presume.
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Missed again, where did I say they are must haves? Besides, are there any must haves? Was the He111 a must-have to play BoB? Are underpants a must-have to fly AH?
My post was an addendum. Don't take them personally.
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Yes they are. They are "what if Focke-Wulf had produced and delivered them in quantities." type what ifs. Not the Ta183 type of what if.
Where does this sort of thing end? Seventeen D-13s and two saw limited action? How many other fighters and bombers would this push onto the table?
Gotha 229?
Damn that George Lucas.
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I hesitated to even post what I did, knowing this thread would digress.
Can't we just say...Wow...what a beauty. Admire the aircraft for what it is/was. I wish more saw action, but considering the chaos in Germany 1945, it wasn't to be.
No need to split hairs over the 'What if' term. Obviously the plane existed and arguably meets AH standards for inclusion. No need for Luftphobia from anyone...Turner is posting his hearts desire...this is the forum for that.
Wow ... what a beauty.
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... only upgraded in performance.
Same thing only better?
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Same thing only better?
Yes, as in more attractive to players. Something fun and exciting though not as expensive as the 262 to get torched in. Admittedly any FW190A model would be a fine addition too. This is just a monster and something attractive as a marketing tool as well, minimal work involved to make it.
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Yes, as in more attractive to players. Something fun and exciting though not as expensive as the 262 to get torched in. Admittedly any FW190A model would be a fine addition too. This is just a monster and something attractive as a marketing tool as well, minimal work involved to make it.
Would it be enough better to warrant perking? The Fw190D-9 isn't close to being perked.
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Would it be enough better to warrant perking? The Fw190D-9 isn't close to being perked.
Maybe, I think so. The Dora with the Jumo 213E is even faster than the Ta152C at low altitudes, primarily because of the 0.50 meter shorter wing span but also because it is lighter. I don't know... perhaps I'm damaged from only flying Luftwaffe planes for years and years, but I wouldn't mind it being perked.
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Maybe, I think so. The Dora with the Jumo 213E is even faster than the Ta152C at low altitudes, primarily because of the 0.50 meter shorter wing span but also because it is lighter. I don't know... perhaps I'm damaged from only flying Luftwaffe planes for years and years, but I wouldn't mind it being perked.
My concern is that if it turns out not to be good enough to be perked it would just make the push to fly fast planes even stronger. The faster the average speed in the MA is the stronger the push to just fly the 360mph+ on the deck planes is, and that isn't a large variety in planes or handling.
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those other d variants did not fight in squadron strength and there are no confirmed kills with them.....however,there is ANOTHER model of the 190 late war aircraft you did not mention... the FW190 A-9. they made about 900 or so,fought in squad strength,got kills. difference between the A-8 and the A-9? more armour and better climb and speed due to more powerful enging, better in adverse conditions due to all weather gear,better rear vision due to revised canopy.
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those other d variants did not fight in squadron strength and there are no confirmed kills with them.....however,there is ANOTHER model of the 190 late war aircraft you did not mention... the FW190 A-9. they made about 900 or so,fought in squad strength,got kills. difference between the A-8 and the A-9? more armour and better climb and speed due to more powerful enging, better in adverse conditions due to all weather gear,better rear vision due to revised canopy.
Not correct. JV44 scored a confirmed victory in one of their (at least 2) D-11's.
That said...YES to the A-9!
EDIT: and Yes to a perk on D-13.
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Yes, a perk on any late D model put in the game would be a sound measure. It should not be a common sight in the MA, should probably be perked on the same level as, or close to, the F4U-4.
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Not correct. JV44 scored a confirmed victory in one of their (at least 2) D-11's.
That said...YES to the A-9!
EDIT: and Yes to a perk on D-13.
I really would like to see the proper 190F/8 or 9 as well as the G being added. Thus being said, one reason I push so hard for EW/MW is to fill these frames out - What seen combat more 190G or 190D-13?
What I would like to see HTC do one day, is when they add the 190G (upgrade the F while at it) throw in a D-13 or something as a "bonus" - we have a few frames like this, Ki-61 for example (three versions).
I understand this won't happen, each aircraft was quite different, the amount of testing time means it would take forever to do all this at once, but just an idea to throw around.
I am just curious whether the 30mm or 20mm version of the D-13 would be added, I am showing both in quite a few references, but i dunno know its specifications as far as speed is. I would imagine the D-13 would easily be perked, but it would be a nice to have the P-63 as well in this case.
A little Late war Perked plane battle :D
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Yes, a perk on any late D model put in the game would be a sound measure. It should not be a common sight in the MA, should probably be perked on the same level as, or close to, the F4U-4.
Units aren't perked or not based on historical rarity in AH, just if they would have negative impact on the game if uncontrolled. The B-239 and Ta152 aren't perked (yes, I know the Ta152 was originally) but the B-29 (3000 built) and Mosquito Mk XVI (1200 built) are perked.
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A3 and A G model first please
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I really would like to see the proper 190F/8 or 9 as well as the G being added. Thus being said, one reason I push so hard for EW/MW is to fill these frames out - What seen combat more 190G or 190D-13?
What I would like to see HTC do one day, is when they add the 190G (upgrade the F while at it) throw in a D-13 or something as a "bonus" - we have a few frames like this, Ki-61 for example (three versions).
I understand this won't happen, each aircraft was quite different, the amount of testing time means it would take forever to do all this at once, but just an idea to throw around.
I am just curious whether the 30mm or 20mm version of the D-13 would be added, I am showing both in quite a few references, but i dunno know its specifications as far as speed is. I would imagine the D-13 would easily be perked, but it would be a nice to have the P-63 as well in this case.
A little Late war Perked plane battle :D
Certainly the G models need some attention.
I would like the 20mm example myself. Any addition/upgrade to the Luftwaffe stable is great and appreciated by me, but that goes for any of the airforce's really.
More planes/more fun!
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Units aren't perked or not based on historical rarity in AH, just if they would have negative impact on the game if uncontrolled. The B-239 and Ta152 aren't perked (yes, I know the Ta152 was originally) but the B-29 (3000 built) and Mosquito Mk XVI (1200 built) are perked.
A perk may be warranted for on the 213E powered Doras based on speed alone. It is a valid measure to prevent the MA being completely dominated by late war planes. It is bad enough as it is.
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Any information or books would be helpful,
As mentioned, there isn't whole a lot to be added but here's something from Jerry Crandall who has done a lot of research on these last Dora variants:
- Oberkommando der Luftwaffe Generalquartiermeister reported that seventeen D-11 had been produced (four with EZ42 gyro gunsight).
- JV44's Platzschuztstaffel had at least one D-11 (Red 4).
- Some D-11s are reported to have been in the Unit Leaders School at Bad Wörishofen.
- There were plans to produce 820 D-11s at Focke Wulf's Sorau factory beginning on January '45.
- Fieseler's Kassel plant was to produce 1420 D-12s starting Jan '45.
- The plan was for the Arbeitsgruppe Roland to produce 1130 D-12s from May '45 on but the plan was cancelled in favor of the D-13.
Obviously these production plans were never realized.
Regarding D-13s:
Two D-13 protypes were built (V62 and V71) after prototype testing D-13/R11 was chosen as a production variant. The production was done by Arbeitsgruppe Roland, however the exact location of the final assembly of the D-13s is unclear (the Arbeitsgruppe consisted of several companies' plants on several locations) but it was most probably Mimetall Erfirt as A-9s and D-9s are known to have been built there. Arbeitsgruppe Roland was to be the only manufacturer of the D-13 with 1060 to be built starting Jan '45. The evidence regarding D-13 production is very rare. The only known evidence comes from Oberkommando der Luftwaffe Generalquartiermeister Nr.2766/45 document dated 7th April 1945. The document is reporting on the previous month (March '45). No later document is known to exist. There was a warning issued that there would be delays in D-13 deliveries due to the lack of documents supplied to the various factories and contractors. Based on the Yellow 10's W.Nr. 863017 would suggest that at least seventeen could have been built. The report mentions that two D-13s were in service by the date of the report.
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As mentioned, there isn't whole a lot to be added but here's something from Jerry Crandall who has done a lot of research on these last Dora variants:
- Oberkommando der Luftwaffe Generalquartiermeister reported that seventeen D-11 had been produced (four with EZ42 gyro gunsight).
- JV44's Platzschuztstaffel had at least one D-11 (Red 4).
- Some D-11s are reported to have been in the Unit Leaders School at Bad Wörishofen.
- There were plans to produce 820 D-11s at Focke Wulf's Sorau factory beginning on January '45.
- Fieseler's Kassel plant was to produce 1420 D-12s starting Jan '45.
- The plan was for the Arbeitsgruppe Roland to produce 1130 D-12s from May '45 on but the plan was cancelled in favor of the D-13.
Regarding D-13s:
Two D-13 protypes were built (V62 and V71) after prototype testing D-13/R11 was chose as a production variant. The production was done by Arbeitsgruppe Roland, however the exact location of the final assembly of the D-13s is unclear (the Arbeitsgruppe consisted of several companies' plants on several locations) but it was most probably Mimetall Erfirt as A-9s and D-9s are known to have been built there. Arbeitsgruppe Roland was to be the only manufacturer of the D-13 with 1060 to be built starting Jan '45. The evidence regarding D-13 production is very rare. The only known evidence comes from Oberkommando der Luftwaffe Generalquartiermeister Nr.2766/45 document dated 7th April 1945. The document is reporting on the previous month (March '45). No later document is known to exist. There was a warning issued that there would be delays in D-13 deliveries due to the lack of documents supplied to the various factories and contractors. Based on the Yellow 10's W.Nr. 863017 would suggest that at least seventeen could have been built. The report mentions that two D-13s were in service by the date of the report.
Accurate and correct.
- Some D-11s are reported to have been in the Unit Leaders School at Bad Wörishofen.
This would likely be the White <58 and White <61 examples as that is consistant with Unit Leader School procedure. Though White <61 was found with JV44's birds and possibly flown opperationally with them.
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OK fine. Give the Luftwaffe guys all the 109s and 190 variants they want. but on top of the Spit VII, XII, LFIX and Seafire LFIII, we want to be able to play the Spit 21 card too as it's wartime use was as extensive as some of these late 190s :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spit21DLG.jpg)
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OK fine. Give the Luftwaffe guys all the 109s and 190 variants they want. but on top of the Spit VII, XII, LFIX and Seafire LFIII, we want to be able to play the Spit 21 card too as it's wartime use was as extensive as some of these late 190s :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spit21DLG.jpg)
That's fair, Luft fans get what they want, Spitfans get what they want.
Gimmie my damn Re.2005 and Ge.55 then! :D
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Sparviero
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That's fair, Luft fans get what they want, Spitfans get what they want.
Gimmie my damn Re.2005 and Ge.55 then! :D
Sparviero
+1.
Love the tri-engine look
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I really would like to see the proper 190F/8 or 9 as well as the G being added.
You've mentioned this in the past. What exactly is wrong with our F-8? Right now, as far as I can tell, its just representing a 190F-8/Ux.
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You've mentioned this in the past. What exactly is wrong with our F-8? Right now, as far as I can tell, its just representing a 190F-8/Ux.
There are quite a few weapon packages not available, the 4x 50kg bombs is one i've been advocating for a very long time.
It gives a total of 8x 50kg bomb, we have the Pb12 rockets, Pzschreck rockets were an option for midwar, the PB was later on.
Also the F-8 did carry Wfr. Gr 28/32 rockets, as some were tasked with bomber interception.
If we had the F8/U1, then 250kg bombs could be added on the wings, as well as 300L drop tanks (wings) and S250 bombs.
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A perk may be warranted for on the 213E powered Doras based on speed alone. It is a valid measure to prevent the MA being completely dominated by late war planes. It is bad enough as it is.
I have always been curious why so many people share this view. What should the Late War Main Arena be dominated by, or even what ratio is the correct ratio for the Late War arena and why? Should it be more early or mid war planes and who should be flying the non late war models, the old salts or only the newbs? Just curious is all bro, not directed specifically at your post, but rather to those in general who bring up this topic of wanting to see less late war planes in the late war arena. :cheers:
:salute
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I have always been curious why so many people share this view. What should the Late War Main Arena be dominated by, or even what ratio is the correct ratio for the Late War arena and why? Should it be more early or mid war planes and who should be flying the non late war models, the old salts or only the newbs? Just curious is all bro, not directed specifically at your post, but rather to those in general who bring up this topic of wanting to see less late war planes in the late war arena. :cheers:
:salute
LWA is dominated by the LWA aircraft, Lusche's charts show you that. I think the P-51D has more sorties then probably the Bottom 20 aircraft in aces high, combined if its not even more then that.
There is a decent number of MW planes, but I haven't seen his charts for 2012 or 2013, it would be interesting to see how much LW aircraft dominate the LWA compared to others.
But the deal breaker is aircraft like the B-239 which gets some use, which is interesting among a few other aircraft.
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I have always been curious why so many people share this view. What should the Late War Main Arena be dominated by, or even what ratio is the correct ratio for the Late War arena and why? Should it be more early or mid war planes and who should be flying the non late war models, the old salts or only the newbs? Just curious is all bro, not directed specifically at your post, but rather to those in general who bring up this topic of wanting to see less late war planes in the late war arena. :cheers:
:salute
It will be dominated by late war stuff. Late war extremely fast stuff is another thing though.
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Where does this sort of thing end? Seventeen D-13s and two saw limited action? How many other fighters and bombers would this push onto the table?
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The Ta152H-1 left the door open for everything.
Btw, you say it was easy to add because of the D9... you cite the cockpit and tail as being the same... I've been looking that over.
The cockpit and tail a plane don't make and the rest of the differences are many... 7' longer wing span and different shapes, 2.5' longer body, the vertical tail is larger area, the cockpit <inside> are not identical, forward fuselage hump is gone and is longer and narrower ...... The cockpit <complete> is moved back 2 feet. The horizontal tail is the same shape and size ...but made of metal instead of wood.
That dose not leave much unchanged. Shall I get out the drawings to illustrate for you?
All your blither about it being "so easy to add" is a Bunch of Dr. BS Karnak in radioactive dream state. I'm sure it is more like Saxman says and is a whole new and different plane on the 3d mesh.
:cheers:
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/Fw-190ds3_zpsd31fbfd3.jpg)
Butcher...Good reading $35 at amazon
The History of German Aviation: Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's Designer and Test Pilot
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A8F%2BcWmtL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
:cheers:
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Butcher...Good reading $35 at amazon
The History of German Aviation: Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's Designer and Test Pilot
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A8F%2BcWmtL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
:cheers:
I've had that book for nearly a decade.
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Here is a wrecked D-11 in what looks like a '45 post-war picture. What would we not give for one of these today? They are still considered high performance aircraft, imagine FW190D models at the Reno air races!
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/fighters/focke-wulf-fw-190-fighter/fw-190d/focke-wulf-fw-190-d-11-fighter-01.png)
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Another flat-nosed Dora from IV./JG3 'Blue 1' which was the staffelkapitän's ride. The a/c in the upper left of the picture was allegedly identified as a flat-nosed Dora as well.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-icAlWTGOcQQ/TZh0u8ghlaI/AAAAAAAACoY/11ZzfjmhmBE/s1600/dora.jpg) (http://falkeeins.blogspot.se/2011/04/fw-190-doras-of-ivjg-3-and-jv-44.html)