Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Changeup on September 19, 2013, 03:36:49 PM
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For those that may have seen it already, disregard....enjoy
Dozen Odd WWII Facts
You might enjoy this from Col D. G. Swinford, USMC, Ret and history buff. You would really have to dig deep to get this kind of ringside seat to history:
1. The first German serviceman killed in WW II was killed by the Japanese ( China , 1937), The first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians ( Finland 1940); The highest ranking American killed was Lt Gen Lesley McNair, killed by the US Army Air Corps.
2. The youngest US serviceman was 12 year old: Calvin Graham, USN. He was wounded and given a Dishonorable Discharge for lying about his age. His benefits were later restored by act of Congress.
3. At the time of Pearl Harbor , the top US Navy command was called CINCUS (pronounced 'sink us'); The shoulder patch of the US Army's 45th Infantry division was the swastika. Hitler's private train was named 'Amerika.' All three were soon changed for PR purposes.
4. More US servicemen died in the Air Corps than the Marine Corps. While completing the required 30 missions, an airman's chance of being killed was 71%.
5. Generally speaking, there was no such thing as an average fighter pilot. You were either an ace or a target. For instance, Japanese Ace Hiroyoshi Nishizawa shot down over 80 planes. He died while a passenger on a cargo plane.
6. It was a common practice on fighter planes to load every 5th round with a tracer round to aid in aiming. This was a big mistake. Tracers had different ballistics so (at long range) if your tracers were hitting the target 80% of your rounds were missing. Worse yet tracers instantly told your enemy he was under fire and from which direction. Worst of all was the practice of loading a string of tracers at the end of the belt to tell you that you were out of ammo. This was definitely not something you wanted to tell the enemy. Units that stopped using tracers saw their success rate nearly double and their loss rate go down.
7. When allied armies reached the Rhine , the first thing men did was pee in it. This was pretty universal from the lowest private to Winston Churchill (who made a big show of it) and Gen. Patton (who had himself photographed in the act).
8. German Me-264 bombers were capable of bombing New York City , but they decided it wasn't worth the effort.
9. German submarine U-120 was sunk by a malfunctioning toilet.
10. Among the first 'Germans' captured at Normandy were several Koreans. They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for the German Army until they were captured by the US Army.
11. Following a massive naval bombardment, 35,000 United States and Canadian troops stormed ashore at Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands . 21 troops were killed in the assault on the island....... It could have been worse if there had actually been any Japanese on the island.
12. The last marine killed in WW2 was killed by a can of spam. He was on the ground as a POW in Japan when rescue flights dropping food and supplies came over, the package came apart in the air and a stray can of spam hit him and killed him.
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lol on some of theese. Havent heard any of them before. Some are funny, some are shocking, some are "only" interesting.
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Funny stuff.
One correction - 9. German submarine U-120 was sunk by a malfunctioning toilet.
It should be U-1206 - it had one of those complicated high-pressure toilets allows you to flush while deep underwater and it malfunctioned - the Captain thought the water had leaked into the forward battery compartment and caused gas to escape the batteries and forced crew out from the bow of the sub - the Captain had no choice but to surface. On top, the sub ran into Allied surface vessels - the Captain decided to scuttle the sub and the crew abandoned ship. A couple of GN sailors drowned in the heavy seas and the rest were captured for the rest of the war.
The story gets even more interesting! A British underwater survey later on in the 70's came upon the site and suggested that U-1206 may have actually run into an underwater wreck after closely examining the damage to the sub's bow and examining the proximity of the older wreck. The scientists surmised that the toilet overflow could of occurred at the same time of the impact to the wreck where they found damage just under the toilet location inside the sub. It wasn't significant but enough to cause a small hole which at depth and complicated by an overflowing toilet was enough to overwhelm the pumps and leak into the lower bow battery compartment.
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10. Among the first 'Germans' captured at Normandy were several Koreans. They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for the German Army until they were captured by the US Army.
Wow those guys just couldn't catch a break. :lol
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Hey thanks for sharing this man! Interesting stuff :aok
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Wow those guys just couldn't catch a break. :lol
No joke.
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2. The youngest US serviceman was 12 year old: Calvin Graham, USN. He was wounded and given a Dishonorable Discharge for lying about his age. His benefits were later restored by act of Congress.
This blows my mind.
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This looks very familiar.
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There is a movie titled 'My way' on netflicks inspired by the Koreans that were captured and conscripted I haven't watched it yet, but it is on my list.
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The first German serviceman killed in ww2 1937- ww2 started 1939. You might as well say the last German soldier killed in ww1 died 1937.
The Winter War between Finland and ussr ended march 1940, in June 1940 a US Foriegn Service clerk, not a serviceman, died when the transport he was on blew up inflight. Has it been determined that the soviets were responsible, and if so how was it determined that the soviets responsible were Russian?
Here's three factoids that may surprise some. The Russian empire wasn't a belligerent in ww2 because at the time it didn't exist. Most soviets were not Russian. Stalin wasn't Russian and didn't like to give speeches because he never mastered the language.
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In the 8th USAAF the bomber loss rate was 4%. Bomber crews were required to complete 25 missions. 25x4=?
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In the 8th USAAF the bomber loss rate was 4%. Bomber crews were required to complete 25 missions. 25x4=?
Wrong. 4% loss rate means, 96% survives. In 25 missions, statistically, the number of the survivors from the original crew was 0.96^25=0,36039 Ergo 64% of the conscripted bomber airmen have died in those 25 missions. Shocking, isnt it? But it might have been even worse at the other airforces. War is truly horrible.
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Also one thing about the tracers. Unlike in video games today, gunsights in ww2 fighter planes, for many reasons, didn't perform with a great deal of accuracy. That's why the hurri2d has two 30 cal. mgs. Aiming was reactive, you walked your fire on to the target. That's also how fw190 pilots used their cowl guns. Try this in AH, take an IL2 and move your default view position far to the left or right so that you can't see your gunsight. Now strafe some ground targets, you'll find yourself walking the bullet strikes into the target. That's generally how they did it.
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Wrong. 4% loss rate means, 96% survives. In 25 missions, statistically, the number of the survivors from the original crew was 0.96^25=0,36039 Ergo 64% of the conscripted bomber airmen have died in those 25 missions. Shocking, isnt it? But it might have been even worse at the other airforces. War is truly horrible.
If a force of 100 bombers has to replace 4 bombers after every mission, after 25 missions wouldn't they have gotten 100 bombers in total as replacements?
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I wonder how the last one to use the toilet on that u boat could live with the knowledge that he basically destroyed a sub by defecation.
What the heck were they eating there?! :O
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If a force of 100 bombers has to replace 4 bombers after every mission, after 25 missions wouldn't they have gotten 100 bombers in total as replacements?
yes. But statistically, 36% will be still from the original 100 - not always the oldest ones get shot down first. So 36% of the crew is going to survive, while some are dieing on their first sortie.
I know, its odd to bring the statistics into this, still. Sad stuff.
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That sub's toilet wasn't faulty, the Captain left a rather rotten one behind. Rather allow the able seaman trained in the loo flush do his job, he attempted to try it himself to avoid embarrassment.
Like a normal German tourist "Eet voz like zis ven I got in here, es va gebroken".
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I can see it now. Everyone standing around going "oh cmon man!"
12. The last marine killed in WW2 was killed by a can of spam. He was on the ground as a POW in Japan when rescue flights dropping food and supplies came over, the package came apart in the air and a stray can of spam hit him and killed him.
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I can see it now. Everyone standing around going "oh cmon man!"
12. The last marine killed in WW2 was killed by a can of spam. He was on the ground as a POW in Japan when rescue flights dropping food and supplies came over, the package came apart in the air and a stray can of spam hit him and killed him.
Mommy how did Daddy die in the war...
Well son he was hit by a stray can of SPAM :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry
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yes. But statistically, 36% will be still from the original 100 - not always the oldest ones get shot down first. So 36% of the crew is going to survive, while some are dieing on their first sortie.
I know, its odd to bring the statistics into this, still. Sad stuff.
I recall reading that statistically a bomber crew was most likely to get shot down on their first three or four operations.
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:salute its true at one time the shoulder patch of the 45th div was a swastika. they changed it (date I have no idea). however there is at least 1 national guard armory that still has the swastika still on the front of the armory. when I seen it I was stunned to say the least. :cheers:
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Wow those guys just couldn't catch a break. :lol
What is amazing is that they somehow survived.... Ying and Yang.....
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I wonder how the last one to use the toilet on that u boat could live with the knowledge that he basically destroyed a sub by defecation.
What the heck were they eating there?! :O
(http://gemakei.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/taco-HELL.jpg)
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yes. But statistically, 36% will be still from the original 100 - not always the oldest ones get shot down first. So 36% of the crew is going to survive, while some are dieing on their first sortie.
I know, its odd to bring the statistics into this, still. Sad stuff.
He's a witch!
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I highly recommend a book called "Dirty Little Secrets of World War II". It's filled with interesting facts just like in this thread. Except its 300 pages long. Its actually available online free as a PDF somewhere. Written my Mark Dunnigan.
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Here is a book called "Dirty Little Secrets of World War II". Chock full of super interesting facts. This is the free (but all content) PDF version. Though its a heck of a lot better as a bathroom reader if you get the book.
http://www.nazi.org.uk/military%20pdfs5/Dirty_Little_Secrets_of_WWII.pdf
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I recall reading that statistically a bomber crew was most likely to get shot down on their first three or four operations.
I dont know anything about it, just was working with the given numbers.
At the Luftwaffe though, it was true. There wasnt an average fighter pilot, as most got shot down in the first couple of his sorties, while the surviving ones often could rack up 20+ kills. Same with the RHAF too, but with much smaller numbers.
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I believe the 8th Air Force alone lost more men (almost 24k KIA) then the entire USMC in WW2 (about 17k KIA). By the way, every time this topic comes up, there always seems to be some Marine that thinks this is somehow a slight against the USMC. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a simple fact, and does not detract from the heroism of the USMC in any way. All services (even the USCG) pulled their weight in WW2, and all the losses were tragic, and staggering by today's standards.
Regarding the 45th Infantry Division swastika (a native Indian symbol in the US), its different from the Nazi one in that the 90 degree angles at the end of each crossbar go the opposite direction from the Nazi one. They changed it nonetheless due to the possibility of confusion. The 45th has an awesome museum open to the public in Oklahoma City that I highly recommend.
Regarding the fact that pilots that survive their first few missions tend to have much higher chance of survival overall, this is well known to the USAF. This was the whole reasoning behind the RED FLAG exercises being implemented, in order to increase a fighter pilot's chances of survival by giving him his first 10 "combat missions" or at least the closest approximations possible in an exercise. The other reason was to fix the abysmal kill ratio that was coming from USAF fighter units in Vietnam. If you look at WW2 ace pilots, they tended to survive disproportionately. Several of the top aces were killed in accidents, but relatively few in combat. Richard Bong (top US ace) was killed testing an early jet, and the German ace often mentioned as the greatest by his peers (Hans-Joachim Marseille) was killed while trying to bail out of an airplane after an engine failure. All of the top 3 overall survived the war, although #2 and #3 were shot down 17 times between them. Erich Hartmann, the number one by amount of kills (even if you subtract the disputed ones, he still comes out number one by most reckonings) with 352, was never shot down although he had to crash land 14 times, again driving home the danger involved in aviation in WW2.
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I think for bomber crews experience wasn't much of a factor regarding surviving. You're going to out smart artillery? That's what made it especially bad, you had no control over your fate. Although in a way that would make it less stressful.
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In the RAF, you're going to weave all the way to the target and back. Your navigator is going to keep you in the stream, and on time. Not early, certainly not late. You'll climb as high as you can, despite the cold (and, if needs be, drop a bomb in the North Sea to do it). Your gunners are going to be on their guard all the time and your pilot will be ready, willing and able to corkscrew at a moment's notice.
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Weren't half of all Lancasters shot down?
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More or less, 45% or so lost on ops according to:
http://www.lancaster-archive.com/index-no%20fund%20rasier.htm
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In 1943 the Luftwaffe destroyed the entire 8th AF three times over. Piecemeal of course, and the reinforcements kept pace. However, after losing 20% of their force in the second Schweinfurt–Regensburg mission in October the 8th withdrew from Germany for almost half a year until adequate escort could be provided.
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The Luftwaffe calculated that it would only lose 1 aircraft for every 3 bombers shot down when attacking unescorted heavy bombers. Aerial gunnery from bombers was a fatally flawed concept. One author, who's name I can't remember, even said that no aircraft were ever shot down by the hand-held guns of American heavy bombers (waist, radio room, nose guns). The turrets were only marginally better. Someone posted a chart years ago showing the dispersion of the bullets from each turret of a B17 and B24. 20 mils at 500 yards for the B17s tail gun. The conversion in feet was around a ~40 diameter I believe.
A post-war study showed that speed was the key to success for both bombers and fighter escorts. The faster a bomber was, the less likely it was to get shot down. The escort fighters had to be faster than the intercepting fighters, or they would be useless. A key example of this is F-86s escorting B29s into North Korea. F-86 was basically the same speed as the Mig-15. It couldn't stop them from shooting down the B29s, and daylight raids with B29s over North Korea were stopped.
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Yep. That's why Lemay had gunners and guns removed from b29s when bombing Japan, less weight and less men lost. Tony Williams said in this forum something to the effect that the most accurate way to model buff defensive guns was to load them all with blanks. I don't remember the figure exactly but the number of rounds expended from gunner positions per kill was over one hundred thousand rounds. And yet the plane with the most kills in the bob scenario isn't the spit or the 109, it's the ju88 with its mighty 7.7mm hand fired mg.
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The first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians ( Finland 1940)
The first US serviceman killed in WW2 was Captain Robert Moffat Lose and he was killed in Norway, not Finland. He was killed by bomb shrapnel while seeking refuge in a railway tunnel as the Luftwaffe was bombing the town. He was in Norway to help evacuate US embassy personnel to Sweden.
ack-ack
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The first US serviceman killed in WW2 was Captain Robert Moffat Lose and he was killed in Norway, not Finland. He was killed by bomb shrapnel while seeking refuge in a railway tunnel as the Luftwaffe was bombing the town. He was in Norway to help evacuate US embassy personnel to Sweden.
ack-ack
Hey....I just cut and paste the news dood, I don't research it's validity
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Most soviets were not Russian.
I think that most Soviets were Russian (as I think Russia had a lot more population than Belarus, Ukraine, etc.). The percentage of Ukrainians (etc.) in the Red Army might have been boosted by conscription, but I suspect that the Red Army still had more Russians than people from non-Russian parts of the Soviet Union. Here, I'm talking about Russia as part of the Soviet Union sort of as New York as part of the USA (i.e., a region of the entity that was the Soviet Union).
However, I think that more Ukrainians and Belarusians died in WWII than Russians.
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1) London and Baghdad: What do they have common? Both are the only cities that have been attacked by ballistics and cruise missiles.
2) B-25 played an important roll in the PTO, MTO and ETO and suffer a lot of loss. However, the B-25 is also know as a robust, reliable bomber to take a beating and still flying. Case example with 321st Bomb Group. One B-25C name "Patches" completed over 300 missions and has the scares to show it "literally". It had six belly landings, and over 400 patched holes from flak. The airframe was so bent out of shape that to fly straight and level the pilot had to set aileron trim 8 degree left and right rudder 6 degree. Should mention that the crew chief painted every patch hole with zinc chromite primer giving it’s name "Patches".
3) HMS Venturer (P68) was the first and only submarine to engage and destroy another submarine (U-846) while both fully submerge under water. At the same time, the wreckage of U-846 remained as a war grave and one of the worst environmental disaster in the Baltic sea. U-846's cargo included approximately 61 tones of metallic mercury in 1,857 71 lb steel flasks stored in her keel. It is estimated approximately 8.8 lbs of mercury is leaking per year into the aquatic environment.
4) The class of 1915: West Point. Know as " the class that stars fell on", 61 of the 164 men held the rank of general.
5) By war's end, Polish military unites fought under four flags: Great Britian, Poland, France, and Russia.
6) An Syrian brown bear name Wojtek was the first and only bear to be enlisted in the military and saw action. He was assigned to the Polish 22nd artillery Supply Company of the Polish II Corps as privet. His duty was to carried artillery shells during the Battle of Monte Cassino. The 22nd company was given approval of an effigy of a bear holding an artillery shell as the official emblem.
7) The first German bomb to fall on Leningrad killed the only elephant in the city zoo. Sigh, sigh.
8) Paratroops: Russian the first country to formed units, Germany the first country to used them in battle and America perfected it in battle.
9) The only country that Germany declared war on was U.S.
10) Chemical weapons: Some countries, like Japan and Germany, used chemical weapons as test or on civilians, but never in battle. Most countries had stockpiles on the front line ready to be used, but nobody did not want to.
11) The oldest warship casualty of WWII was the H.M.S Victory (1765) received a direct hit from a 500 lbs German bomb in the Battle of Britian.
12) Why no U.S Mariens in the ETO? This goes back to WWI, in the Battle of Belleau Wood, June 1-26, 1918. 1st Battalion, 5th Marines saw German forces punched a hole in the French lines to the left of the Marines' position. They responded quickly and in 26 days later defeated the Germans. The marines had so much publicity from the U.S, Britian, France and Germany that the U.S. Army was nearly forgotten.
Moving forwarded to WWII: When the U.S. enter the war, top Army staff did not want the U.S Mariens to gain fame so they make sure that the Army was going to defeat Germay on their own. Even though the Army had got the publicity in the successful Normany invasion, Mariena once again gain great publicity and the most icon pitcher of WWII. Note: other reasons for no Marines was do to number of Marines that they could not fight on both fronts.
13) Besides the 332 FG there are other military units that were all blacks that served and saw combat action:
761st Tank Battalion - (Unit that Jack Robison served on) ETO
366th Infantry Regiment - MTO/ETO
369th Infantry Regiment - PTO
370th Infantry Regiment - MTO
371st Infantry Regiment - MTO
10th Cavalry Regiment - The original Buffol Solders- replacements for 92nd Infantry Division
555th Parachute Infantry Battalion - never saw any action but to reconized as the only all black parachute infantry.
USS Mason (DE-529) (Evarts-class destroyer escort) - all black except seniors officers where white. ETO
USS PC-1264 was a PC-461-class submarine chaser -
14) German where the first country to used air drones as recon.
15) Captain Paul Hall's P-47D Thunderbolt fighter 'Dixie Gal' of 57th Fighter Group, US 64th Fighter Squadron, made an attack run on a German tank. Mis-judge his altitude, his P-47 bounce off the ground infleciting damage to all four props (all badly bent back), but not the engine. The P-47 flew 150 mile back to an air strip and landed successfully.
16) There were over 150 different designations of Bf- 190s, but some never went into combat. These include Ta-152.
17) Number of German Generals killed in WWII: General = 1; Lieutenant General = 19; Major General = 55; Brigadier General = 61.
18) The top 112 fighter aces of WWII were all Germans. Only two got over 300 kills.
19) First non-German fighter ace was Ilmari Juutilainen with 94.
20) Ivan Kozhedub, Russian's highest fighter ace and top fighter ace of Allies, shot down 62 Germans and believe to kill two P-51.
21) Remy Van Lierde, British top fighter ace, was credit with 50 kills, 44 of them were V1's.
22) Lydia Litvak; Russia, top female fighter ace to date with 12 kills.
23) Hans-Ulrich Rudel, Germany's top stuka pilot; flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, 70 landing craft, nine aircraft, 4 armored trains, several bridges, a destroyer, two cruisers, and the Soviet battleship Marat. Never shot down by another plane, but crashed land from flack 32 times. Few times behind enemy line.
24) The highest (altitude) air to air kill: ETO - On 12 September 1942- Emanuel Galitzine intercepted a Ju-86R at 43,000 in the spitfire. Never shot the Ju down, but did fire at and made contact to force the Ju-86 back to France. PTO - F4U intercept a Ki-47 at 48,000 feet. Ack-Ack knows more about this story, please fill in on it.
Sent on behalf of Oaktree
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The Winter War between Finland and ussr ended march 1940, in June 1940 a US Foriegn Service clerk, not a serviceman, died when the transport he was on blew up inflight. Has it been determined that the soviets were responsible, and if so how was it determined that the soviets responsible were Russian?
Uh, who cares. They shot down a passenger plane during the peace time. They were operating under the red star so they were generally called by a derogatory word twisted from the Swedish word 'ryssen' which means 'a russian'.
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Uh, who cares. They shot down a passenger plane during the peace time. They were operating under the red star so they were generally called by a derogatory word twisted from the Swedish word 'ryssen' which means 'a russian'.
They did? Fascinating yet almost relevant.
I think demographically less than half of the population of the ussr was ethnically russian. The USSR was a huge empire of many languages and even religions, from the christian western oblasts to the buddhist eastern oblasts and the central islamic oblasts. I don't know how many languages were spoken in the ussr but if you looked it up I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than twenty.
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The Luftwaffe calculated that it would only lose 1 aircraft for every 3 bombers shot down when attacking unescorted heavy bombers. Aerial gunnery from bombers was a fatally flawed concept. One author, who's name I can't remember, even said that no aircraft were ever shot down by the hand-held guns of American heavy bombers (waist, radio room, nose guns). The turrets were only marginally better. Someone posted a chart years ago showing the dispersion of the bullets from each turret of a B17 and B24. 20 mils at 500 yards for the B17s tail gun. The conversion in feet was around a ~40 diameter I believe.
I called that bs. of all the thousands of sorties flown by bombers, you mean to tell me not one fighter got shot down? even the odds say that at least one would have been shot down.
semp
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Yeah, the hand-held guns (not the turreted guns) of American heavy bombers probably never shot down an enemy aircraft.
The only account I can think of that comes close is Saburo Sakai (sic) getting shot in the eye by an SBD gunner. But that is more of a manually operated turret rather than a flexible pintle gun.
The firing window was extremely short (tenths of a second). The cone of fire was small. And the amount of firepower of a single .50 caliber was not significant in that short amount of time. And if all those conditions were right, one of the turreted gun stations on a bomber would have a much higher probability of kill than the pintle gun (though both pKs were criminally low.
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"Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But curve in towards 40 fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes." -- Hans Philipp
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8) Paratroops: Russian the first country to formed units, Germany the first country to used them in battle and America perfected it in battle. I Know the British would argue differently. ;)
16) There were over 150 different designations of Bf- 190s, but some never went into combat. These include Ta-152. VERY interesting...
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I think that it's highly likely that bombers shot down fighters. Just in the 2nd raid on Schweinfurt it is clear that LW fighters were shot down by bombers (as there weren't US fighters present during much of the mission).
You can argue that gunners in AH kill attacking fighters with much higher probability than in real life, yes -- but you also have to admit that fighters in AH kill bombers with much higher probability than in real life.
Again, look at Schweinfurt. 229 B-17's attacked the city. They were attacked by a couple hundred LW fighters. 60 B-17's were shot down. 35 LW fighters were shot down. In AH, a 1:1 ratio of attacking fighters to defending bombers (note, this is 200 LW fighters and 200 bomber aircraft, not 200x3 bomber aircraft) would result in approx. 100% bomber loss and something far less than 100% fighter loss (10% maybe?).
Why?
Probably for a few reasons. First, is that in real life pilots probably didn't press attacks the same way we do with no real physical harm on the line. Second is that AH pilots have, on average, ten times more time fighting than even experienced real fighter pilots, and that translates into more lethality in the environment they have optimized themselves for. Third is that it is probably easier to hit in AH than in real life (where equipment wasn't perfect, visibility was worse, there were malfunctions, vibrations, noise, extreme cold, more adrenaline pumping, movement was restricted in bulky equipment, etc.).
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Uh, who cares. They shot down a passenger plane during the peace time. They were operating under the red star so they were generally called by a derogatory word twisted from the Swedish word 'ryssen' which means 'a russian'.
Russians got their name mainly to Swedish Wikings that travelled all over western russia's river systems, Novgorod was build by swedish wikings. Finns already called swedes Rus according to link below.
http://viking.no/e/russia/
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The Rus were Vikings who captured Kiev and then ruled the region expanding from there. They are, indeed, why Russia is called what it is.
The Norse also took over at various times: large portions of Germany, England, Central Europe/Russia, Europe overall (including the western Roman Empire), and North Africa.
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I like these kind of fact lists, they are interesting, and in fact checking them I often learn many interesting historical facts. However, sometimes these type of facts don't mean as much without some context. I like facts and trivia as much as the next guy (probably a lot more in fact) but I never accept anything I read without crosschecking it to the extent possible. Below are some of my notes on that last round with some corrections, and also an attempt to add some context and basis for comparison to some of the more random ones:
(1) Regarding number one, I'm not convinced that London and Baghdad are the only 2 cities to have been attacked by cruise and ballistic missiles. Even in WW2, there were probably cities that were attacked by V-1 and V-2 other than London in the UK. Additionally, Scud ballistic missiles were heavily used in the Iran/Iraq war as well as in Afghanistan during the 1980's. Many of the cities attacked by those were also attacked by US Tomahawk cruise missiles. They may well be the only two capitol cities so attacked, but I think that may also not be true, with Kabul being a prime candidate for addition to this list (although I cannot verify for sure that Kabul was directly attacked by both Scuds and Tomahawks).
(2) No dispute on the B-25 facts, it was a great plane and one of my favorites, but I would submit that the B-26 merits mention as well as it is usually cited as having the lowest loss rate of any US bomber, and probably the 2nd lowest loss rate of any bomber built in significant numbers by any side (the Mosquito was almost certainly the lowest of the common bombers, as it was virtually un-interceptable for most of the war).
(4) The class the stars fell on was very unusual, for anyone that knows how few of any given Academy class typically ever make general at any grade. I believe the actual number of Generals for that class was 59 though not 61. The actual breakdown of the class of 1915 was: Two 5 stars; two four stars; 7 three stars; 24 two stars; 24 one star. The 5 star Generals were Eisenhower and Bradley, with Eisenhower furthermore going on to be a two-term President of the United States. Even in the Civil War there were no classes that reached these kind of numbers. The highest American Civil War classes were '35 (56 Generals); '37 (50); '41 (52); '42 (56); '46 (59); '53 (52). The class of 1976 is rapidly becoming famous as the "class the stars fell on" from our era, with 33 Generals of its 855 graduates. By the way, the class of 1915 only had 164 graduates, so not only in absolute numbers is it the highest, but it is by percentage as well (36%).
(9) This one is demonstrably not true. Germany formally declared war on at least one other country during WW2 and that would be Norway on 24 April 1940.
(10) Also not true, the Japanese used chemical weapons from 1936-1939 in China and in an extensive way. They were definitely used against Chinese Army troops in battle during this period, not just against civilians (although they did that as well). There are also persistent allegations that the Nazis used chemical weapons in at least 2 isolated circumstances in WW2 against the Soviets. I haven't seen any real compelling proof of this though.
(11) This is an overstatement of a fact. The HMS Victory was in drydock and did in fact receive some damage from a bomb that fell in the drydock. It was not a direct hit though as far as I am aware. The HMS Victory is of course the oldest commissioned warship in the world, having been launched in 1765. The USS Constitution (launched in 1797 as one of the original 6 frigates of the US Navy) is the oldest commissioned warship afloat (the Victory is in perpetual drydock).
(14) I would have to see evidence of this one. I am not aware that any country used unmanned aircraft for the purpose of reconnaissance in WW2. They were however used as targets for training, and of course as guided weapons. By the way, to get real technical and nitpicky, Predators and other current unmanned aicraft are not drones. Drones refer to unmanned targets such as the QF-106. The Predator is more correctly referred to as a RPA or remotely piloted aircraft. The media insists on calling them drones and it is very irritating to a nerd that is super detail oriented like myself.
(15) This happened more than once. In the Pacific theater a P-47 struck the ocean and flew home with all blades bent back as well. What a great airplane (and engine)!
(16) Obviously this is meant to say FW-190 not 109. It also is worded misleadingly so that it appears that the TA-152 never saw combat, but that is not true. It did, albeit in small numbers (less than 50 aircraft delivered, making it the Aces High aircraft that was the rarest of anything we have in the game, as even the Me-163 was built in the hundreds of aircraft). The Bf-109 was produced in even greater numbers (most produced fighter in history with over 34k built) and with even more types and variants, with a truly staggering amount of variation, and even a number of custom one-off builds for certain aces if I remember correctly.
(17) From what I can tell, this is actually low! Those figures given add up to 136 German flag officers KIA in WW2 (this number includes all services, which may account for the difference). As near as I can tell after researching this I come up with 289 KIA. In addition, if you count those killed in accidents, suicides, and executed during and after the war, as well as those that died as prisoners, the number comes up to a staggering 969 deaths of German Generals and Admirals. They weren't the only ones though. According to one source that I found, the Soviets lost 680 Generals during the war to all causes with 245 of those being KIA. The Americans lost about 40.
(18) This is disputed as different countries counted differently, and there is lots of controversy over the numbers themselves for a variety of reasons, but on the many of the generally accepted lists, this is in fact how it is listed. In addition to the 2 with over 300 kills, there are another 13 with over 200 kills credited and a total of 35 with over 150 kills. Regardless of which side of the debate you come down on, it is clear that all the top fifty scoring fighter pilots in history are German, even if there were drastic overcounts (of which there is no evidence). While all air forces in WW2 inflated their kill counts (mainly due to the fog of war essentially), the Germans actually were pretty meticulous about crediting kills personally, and there are some aces who actually may have scored MORE than they are credited with. By the way, Aces High has really helped me understand how the overcounts happened. For those of you that haven't flown in the historical type scenarios in AH (like the BoB scenario that is going on now, FSO, and Snapshots), they typically have the kill messages turned off, so you have no idea how many kills you get unless you see the enemy crash or sustain catastrophic damage. Even then, several people may have been shooting at it. So far, for every event I have flown in, except one, I have thought that I killed more enemy planes than the logs actually credited me with afterwards. In real war, even more confusion would have prevailed no doubt.
(19) This is worded in a slightly confusing way. I believe it means to say that Ilmari Juutilainen was the highest scoring non-German fighter ace, and that is in fact correct.
(21) Disputed at the very least. Although the Brits counted V-1's as air-to-air kills, some lists don't count those, which would cause Van Lierde to drop way down the list as he only destroyed 6 fixed wing aircraft. Also, Marmaduke Pattle is considered by some to have killed between 50 and 52, which would make him the undisputed high scorer of the RAF, but many of the records were lost early in the war. Pattle makes most peoples short list as one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time independent of scoring, due to a rare combination of factors that he exhibited, much in the same way that Marseille is often listed by some as the Luftwaffe's greatest despite not being the highest scoring.
(23) Rudel predominantly flew the Stuka, but I believe that he scored all 9 of his air kills in a FW-190 which he also occasionally flew. He also flew more combat missions than anyone in history a total that is unlikely to ever be surpassed. His numbers may also be inflated some in terms of the objects killed, but as with his fighter pilot brethren, even if you cut them by two-thirds, you still end up with probably the top scorer. It's a shame he was so dedicated to such an awful cause.
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5 post poster comments on a 60 post poster.
Interesting...light up the IP address locator boys, think we have someone talking to themselves again.
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The Luftwaffe calculated that it would only lose 1 aircraft for every 3 bombers shot down when attacking unescorted heavy bombers. Aerial gunnery from bombers was a fatally flawed concept. One author, who's name I can't remember, even said that no aircraft were ever shot down by the hand-held guns of American heavy bombers (waist, radio room, nose guns). The turrets were only marginally better. Someone posted a chart years ago showing the dispersion of the bullets from each turret of a B17 and B24. 20 mils at 500 yards for the B17s tail gun. The conversion in feet was around a ~40 diameter I believe.
A post-war study showed that speed was the key to success for both bombers and fighter escorts. The faster a bomber was, the less likely it was to get shot down. The escort fighters had to be faster than the intercepting fighters, or they would be useless. A key example of this is F-86s escorting B29s into North Korea. F-86 was basically the same speed as the Mig-15. It couldn't stop them from shooting down the B29s, and daylight raids with B29s over North Korea were stopped.
Most early B-29 missions were escorted by F-84s and F-80s. F-86s didn't do much escorting... It's important to understand that the MiGs would be waiting at very high altitudes, and would dive in, speed brakes out. Unless the fighters get there well before the bombers, you can't prevent the enemy fighters from diving through the escort. Below 10,000 feet, the MiG-15 was not greatly faster than the F-84 and slower than any version of the F-86. When the F-86s arrived well in advance of the B-29s, the MiGs were often much too harried to be very effective.
Down low, the MiGs were less impressive. Indeed, in November of 1952, at least 3 MiG-15bis fighters were gunned down by a pair of Navy F9F-5s (Naval Reservists). Flying out of the Soviet Union, a sizable formation of MiG tested the air defenses of the US carrier groups. A pair of Panthers were directed to investigate the radar contacts. While passing 26,000 ft, the MiGs were spotted high above (around 50k). Both radar and visual counts showed 7 MiGs. Diving down, the MiGs initiated a gun run on the Navy fighters. Bad decision. The Navy pilots assumed they were under attack, asked for and received permission to engage the MiGs. Four MiGs made the initial attack with the other three coming down not far behind. The Navy pilots managed to gain the advantage despite the nearly 2/1 odds. A third F9F arrived as the remaining MiGs tried to bug out. This F9F finished off a damaged MiG. Gun camera film showed three MiGs down for certain, and at least three more damaged to varying degrees... The Soviets later admitted two MiGs down. Intercepted radio chatter revealed three missing and three more declaring emergencies. Soviet search and rescue efforts were substantial, but to no avail. On Panther was hit by several 23mm rounds, but returned to the CV (USS Oriskany) without difficulty.
The Soviets thought they were playing with F9F-2 fighters. However, these were F9F-5s, a bit more sporty than the -2.
The above is a very short version of the fight. All three of the Navy pilots have been interviewed several times (I have personally spoken to two of them)... After two of these gentlemen passed away, the remaining pilot changed his story, claiming he had shot down all three. Of course, this goes against the combat reports, State Department interviews, the Oriskany's After Action report and everything else obtained since the event. I have all of this documentation, including strips of the gun camera films. This story has been touched on in a magazine, and I wrote a web piece on it in 1997. John Bruning dedicated a chapter to it in his book, Crimson Sky.
One more thing, if you examine claims for B-29s shot down, the Soviets, Chinese and NK pilots claimed 124 B-29s downed by fighters combined. Actual losses to all causes were 34, with just 16 known to have been shot down by MiGs. Another 14 were lost to causes unknown, and it's possible that a few of this group that were victims of a MiG. Nonetheless, you cannot accept Soviet claims. If you did, you would have to believe that they shot down more F-86s than ever flew a sortie over Korea.
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24) The highest (altitude) air to air kill: ETO - On 12 September 1942- Emanuel Galitzine intercepted a Ju-86R at 43,000 in the spitfire. Never shot the Ju down, but did fire at and made contact to force the Ju-86 back to France. PTO - F4U intercept a Ki-47 at 48,000 feet. Ack-Ack knows more about this story, please fill in on it.
Sent on behalf of Oaktree
I believe this was an F4u whose guns jammed, he used the prop to chop the tail off the Ki-45 (I believe it was). Whether this story is true or not I have never got to read an actual account of it, only "internet" hearsay.
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I believe this was an F4u whose guns jammed, he used the prop to chop the tail off the Ki-45 (I believe it was). Whether this story is true or not I have never got to read an actual account of it, only "internet" hearsay.
It's a true story, it happened during the Okinawa campaign. Forgot the name of the USMC pilot, but he and another Corsair pilot intercepted a IJAAF recce plane that was at 40,000ft+ and were forced to use their props to chew away the tail of the Japanese recce bird after Corsairs' cannon froze due to the high altitude. It's a well documented and verified engagement and is considered the highest shoot down that occurred during WW2.
ack-ack
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(I have personally spoken to two of them)
Good stuff, WW, thanks.
- oldman
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"Yeah, the hand-held guns (not the turreted guns) of American heavy bombers probably never shot down an enemy aircraft."
Neither of gun systems used in B17's tail position were powered turrets but "hand-held" guns. Only top and bottom positions had powered turrets which had smaller scatter and thus more concentrated fire power. The guns on the sides were practically useless but the two gunners could be used for other important tasks during flight.. and fight.
-C+
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There is a reason they called it the "Cheyenne tail turret ".
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It's a true story, it happened during the Okinawa campaign. Forgot the name of the USMC pilot, but he and another Corsair pilot intercepted a IJAAF recce plane that was at 40,000ft+ and were forced to use their props to chew away the tail of the Japanese recce bird after Corsairs' cannon froze due to the high altitude. It's a well documented and verified engagement and is considered the highest shoot down that occurred during WW2.
ack-ack
Wow did his prop survive? Got to say that took guts.
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Wow did his prop survive? Got to say that took guts.
no kidding, I usually try to verify stories like this but ack-ack has got it, my problem is whats posted on the internet i try to track down however I have never been able too.
I seen a few variations of the story on the internet, i assumed it was fake. One website claims it was an F4u-5 which wasn't even in WW2.
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"Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But curve in towards 40 fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes." -- Hans Philipp
Wow, someone said war was fun. Who'd a thunk.
Oops, sorry. Carry on.
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"There is a reason they called it the "Cheyenne tail turret "."
Ok, if you consider mounting the guns in a geared aluminum "pumpkin" a turret, then that's what it is then. However, while it was somewhat an improvement to earlier model, it was not powered in any axis and it did not even provide improved armor protection to the gunner but only an armored rear glass. Thus it is no wonder that it had worse scatter than either of the powered turrets.
http://legendsintheirowntime.com/B17/B17_guns.html
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=21120.0
-C+
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I think that it's highly likely that bombers shot down fighters. Just in the 2nd raid on Schweinfurt it is clear that LW fighters were shot down by bombers (as there weren't US fighters present during much of the mission).
You can argue that gunners in AH kill attacking fighters with much higher probability than in real life, yes -- but you also have to admit that fighters in AH kill bombers with much higher probability than in real life.
Again, look at Schweinfurt. 229 B-17's attacked the city. They were attacked by a couple hundred LW fighters. 60 B-17's were shot down. 35 LW fighters were shot down. In AH, a 1:1 ratio of attacking fighters to defending bombers (note, this is 200 LW fighters and 200 bomber aircraft, not 200x3 bomber aircraft) would result in approx. 100% bomber loss and something far less than 100% fighter loss (10% maybe?).
Why?
Probably for a few reasons. First, is that in real life pilots probably didn't press attacks the same way we do with no real physical harm on the line. Second is that AH pilots have, on average, ten times more time fighting than even experienced real fighter pilots, and that translates into more lethality in the environment they have optimized themselves for. Third is that it is probably easier to hit in AH than in real life (where equipment wasn't perfect, visibility was worse, there were malfunctions, vibrations, noise, extreme cold, more adrenaline pumping, movement was restricted in bulky equipment, etc.).
And bombers in real life would fly very slowly. So slow they sometimes used flaps from the IP to the target.
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Wasnt Antwerp also hit by both "V" weapons during the war? Maybe Liege too?
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Wasnt Antwerp also hit by both "V" weapons during the war?
Yes.
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And bombers in real life would fly very slowly. So slow they sometimes used flaps from the IP to the target.
They did fly more slowly than we fly them in AH, but I haven't ever heard of them using flaps on their bomb runs.
Fighters, too, flew more slowly -- not using full power generally except in engaging in combat, thus entering combat at less than top speed.
In scenarios, some GL's fly bombers at less than full power in order to maintain integrity of the group's formation.
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In scenarios, some GL's fly bombers at less than full power in order to maintain integrity of the group's formation.
Which, IMO, is a highly recommendable habit for all formation flying in AH. Minor corrections trying to get the autoclimb in synch with your leader can drop you kiloyards apart.
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They did fly more slowly than we fly them in AH, but I haven't ever heard of them using flaps on their bomb runs.
Fighters, too, flew more slowly -- not using full power generally except in engaging in combat, thus entering combat at less than top speed.
In scenarios, some GL's fly bombers at less than full power in order to maintain integrity of the group's formation.
Well now you have.
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Well now you have.
It was my way of (I hope) politely saying that I'm not sure I believe it still. ;) You could be right -- maybe it's something Lancasters did at times during night bombing, and if so, why? I don't think that US bombers did that.
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Again, look at Schweinfurt. 229 B-17's attacked the city. They were attacked by a couple hundred LW fighters. 60 B-17's were shot down. 35 LW fighters were shot down. In AH, a 1:1 ratio of attacking fighters to defending bombers (note, this is 200 LW fighters and 200 bomber aircraft, not 200x3 bomber aircraft) would result in approx. 100% bomber loss and something far less than 100% fighter loss (10% maybe?).
Why?
Fighter on fighter action in AH also results in a fraction of planes shot down several times that of WWII.
When you fight from a chair with a beer in your hand, pulling 1G, and you are getting hit by bright pixels you tend to press your attacks a lot more. When on the other hand you sit on your parachute in a vibrating plane under G stress, real slugs of lead whizzing by and your wingman has just been blown to bits, you do not press your attacks as much.
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Fighter on fighter action in AH also results in a fraction of planes shot down several times that of WWII.
When you fight from a chair with a beer in your hand, pulling 1G, and you are getting hit by bright pixels you tend to press your attacks a lot more. When on the other hand you sit on your parachute in a vibrating plane under G stress, real slugs of lead whizzing by and your wingman has just been blown to bits, you do not press your attacks as much.
I took two rides at Cavanaugh: Stearman and the Texan...I'm fairly convinced that anyone over 50 wouldn't be flying WWII fighter aircraft for survival...they won't survive long without several miles run a day, thin frame and in "flying" shape. I asked the pilot to do what he could to make the last 15 mins of each flight as physically "stressful" as he could, safely of course, and it was not greatness...it was relief when it was over. I didn't get sick...but I was glad to stop "g-grunting" and leaning into turns to avoid having the skin on my face pealed off. It was an absolute assault on my body, lol.
By my estimation, we get about 10% of the full experience of combat flight. Hell, half the moves people make online would cause them to pass out and auger in RL flight, lol. Guess that's what Bighorn, Morfiend and BigRat mean when they say, "learn to fly smoothly".
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And bombers in real life would fly very slowly. So slow they sometimes used flaps from the IP to the target.
Not very likely, at least for the US bombers. Both the B-17 and B-24 cruise well above max flap speed, they would have to slow significantly. Lead slowing enough to use flaps would cause havoc in the large formations used by the 8th AF. Simply slowing and speeding up the formation would be a mess. On the B-17 with it's simple flap there would be little to gain by using flaps. Using flaps/slowing would also decrease range.
You have anything documentation about using flaps on bombrun? I gotta call BS otherwise.
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First American fighter ace of ww2 was Portland, OR born Chinese-American, Arthur Chin.