Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: artik on September 24, 2013, 03:33:29 AM
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It is known that before modern computed gunsites with radar based range detector like LCOS the aiming was done using tracers...
I mostly prefer to fly planes with canons like 109D, or Yak-3, La-7. So I'm familiar to be very careful with ammo and not waste it too much.
Now when training for BoB with Hurricane with its 8 .303 cal guns I tried to look on my traces in offline shooting 111...
I was surprised that I started getting kills much easier. I looked at my tracers, adjusted them a little pointing to the cockpit and poooof 111 is gone. Once I started to looking on my tracers and aiming using them it was much easier to calculate the correct deflection.
Now it has price: you should do longer bursts of fire because it takes time for bullets reach the target area and than after adjusting it takes time to the stream to move to the target.
Now I started testing this in planes with .50 cal that have longer shooting time and found that it was easier to move the bullet stream even in
hard deflection shoots, in other case I could shoot down easily a 110 running away in my Pony. I just started firing and than adjusted a little a stream of bullets and... many many hits detected and 110's wing had gone.
- How many of you actually use tracers for aiming?
- How effective do you find them?
- I know that many prefer to hide tracers because they are not helpful and disclose your shooting. Does it really worth the effort?
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- How many of you actually use tracers for aiming? I do
- How effective do you find them? Quite effective in the long run, as without racers my ability to hit the enemy will diminish rapidly over time
- I know that many prefer to hide tracers because they are not helpful and disclose your shooting. Does it really worth the effort? For some it will be, for some it won't ;)
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I liked tracers on because I thought they looked pretty, and you can see just where your rounds are going.
I've recently turned them off to see if maybe it'll help me improve my aim and the enemy doesn't know when I'm shooting. It's not really hard to shoot plane down with tracers off. Once you've flown with them on for a while then you know where to aim and where your shots will go. Just pull the same lead you always pulled with tracers on, pull the trigger, and watch the magic sprites light up. I think some people also turn tracers off so there is less stuff showing between them and their target so they don't lose track of their target in the tracers.
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. Once you've flown with them on for a while then you know where to aim and where your shots will go. Just pull the same lead you always pulled with tracers on, pull the trigger, and watch the magic sprites light up.
I did experiment with tracers off several times in my career. At first, it's like you said, just oull the same lead and pull trigger. However, after some time I start to lose my mental sight picture, and my ability to hit gets worse and worse. Without tracers I can't judge as well by how much I missed and correcting my fire will be more difficult. When I tried no tracers for a week, my gunnery was down to 'average' at the end.
So I do occasionally disable tracers (mostly in the 262), but only for one or two sorties.
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I shoot with them off most of the time. For me it just cuts down on the visual distractions and eliminates my problem of aiming with the tracers instead of my sight. I'll turn them back on if I'm flying a plane I don't fly often or if I'm in some sort of aiming slump.
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I haven't used tracers since 05' simply because my aim increased significantly without them. I can't aim worth crap with my tracers on, they just get in the way. :(
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I shoot with them off most of the time. For me it just cuts down on the visual distractions and eliminates my problem of aiming with the tracers instead of my sight. I'll turn them back on if I'm flying a plane I don't fly often or if I'm in some sort of aiming slump.
Buffs can have tracers off too? :confused:
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Buffs can have tracers off too? :confused:
IIRC, the lead plane can cut them off but the drones still have tracers.
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Just my humble thought...
So when I had tracers on, I would take high deflection shots... Crossing or raking shots... Very high miss percentage shots. On top of wasting my ammo on those shots I found myself flying for position setup too even take those shots.
Wasting ammo is bad. Flying for the wrong position is bad. :bhead
:airplane:
This tour I turned my tracers off.......
Now instead of flying for a position which places me in a bad spot. I find myself flying for the sure shot. The dead six.
:huh. Why, how, what?
I do not waste my planes energy seeking a momentary shot that will place me in a bad position for the overall outcome of the fight. The mentality of my flying changed along with my placement for the saddle.
I used too have my convergence set at the weapon type maximum range.... Now I set EVERY weapon to a point convergence of 300.....
My enemy will fill my windscreen and I know I do not miss by doing such a dirty deed..... With tracers off he holds still just long enough for me to readjust my fire and make the rounds count. :devil
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Always preferred tracers off. One advantage is not giving away your or firing on
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I use tracers. It isn't like your plane is a sniper trying to hide, the enemy KNOWS you're there. If they do not know you're there then it doesn't matter anyways: you get the kill regardless.
I use tracers on all of my AH planes. I rely on them more so for the high ammo planes loaded with MG's. Otherwise, I only fire when the aim is more true for lack of better terms.
One thing I suggest for everything to try: while in the Ostwind move your sight up and out of the gun sight and rely only on tracers. I've been far more successful with the Ostwind since going that route vs using the gun sight (plus, the sight picture is very limited).
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I use tracers. It isn't like your plane is a sniper trying to hide, the enemy KNOWS you're there. If they do not know you're there then it doesn't matter anyways: you get the kill regardless.
Uhh... if you're on someone's six whose saddled up on another guy and he starts seeing your tracers flying by, it will alert him to your presence. This is big when using MGs where you will have to hit consistently for a slightly longer amount of time.
I also like tracers off when taking pot shots from longer distances. I know it always freaks me the fkk out when I'm trying to get a gap on someone and they suddenly ping me from d500 and he had tracers off. :) psychological advantage.
I also find as someone else noted tracers add a lot of clutter to the screen. It would be cool if we could choose the amount of tracer rounds fired.
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Tracers on now, but I vary depending on mood and my shooting i.e. if I'm on a hot streak or so cold I couldn't hit an elephant in the arse at 5 yards (which is sadly most of the time). I rarely see a difference in hit %, but agree the tracers off helps with not alerting the target you are firing...until pieces start to fly off of course.
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Now instead of flying for a position which places me in a bad spot. I find myself flying for the sure shot. The dead six.
Agreed. Turning off tracers encourages you to fly like they actually flew, particularly to hold your fire until you're within historical ranges.
And, as others say, turning off tracers also turns off the public service announcement, "SOMEONE IS SHOOTING AT YOU."
- oldman
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And, as others say, turning off tracers also turns off the public service announcement, "SOMEONE IS SHOOTING AT YOU."
- oldman
not if you tweak the advanced sounds a little... :D
there is one drawback...i got a sound glitch that made me think there was a tank on my six at less than 100 yards firing at me.
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Dead six isn't the sure shot, it's the most difficult.
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Yep...I prefer a low angle, high aspect shot myself. I need a BIIIIGGGG target. :D
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tracers on or off don't matter, I can still hear then coming with surround sound.
semp
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Tracers can help with improving your aim as it forces you to lead and aim with your gun sight instead of your tracers. It takes a couple of weeks to get used to it but those that stick it out will see an improvement in their hit %. For many years I flew with them off but recently turned them back on to see if I would fall into old bad habits and lead/aim with my tracers instead of my gun sight but years of flying with tracers off, aiming with the gun sight has become second nature to me.
ack-ack
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Recently I've pushed my wing gun convergence back out to 350-450. Cannon and MG. With game release 2.20 I pulled those in to 250-325 as a response to suddenly not being able to hit anything after updating to that release online. With 2.30 I suddenly couldn't hit anything with those short convergences. Almost every sortie until 2.30 patch 3, not landing any kills, or only 1, or assists. With patch 3, I decided to pull my convergences out and started landing kills again. It was like night and day. I landed from one sortie with my guns at the shorter convergences with only assists and frustration. Pulled my convergences out for the next sortie, and everything I shot at was hit as my sight picture used to work with the shorter convergences.
In both cases I was aiming with the same sight picture and lead values due to the gunsights I use.
Tracers on or, tracers off. It's the sight picture you have to train yourself to which never changes. When you adjust convergence you are attempting to fit the bullet stream to your sight picture. We are all limited to shooting to where the con will be visa your relative flight paths and how that relates to what you are using in your windscreen, gunsight glass edges, or reticle ring as your percentage of lead relative to lines of travel. The closer you can maneuver to your target the less you need to worry about your sight picture.
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I've done both, when I first started AH my main ride was the 51D. I found myself relying on the traces. I started talking to some of the veteran players and one suggested tracers off. It took awhile to get the hang of it, but eventually I figured out how to lead better.
Now I'm flying the Mossie almost exclusively. And the amount of bullets that fly out of the nose of that plane, I figure I don't need to send the warnings that I'm missing. So I'm still flying with them off...maybe I'll try tonight with them on.
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I think tracers on or off is irrelevant. what counts is if you actually use your gunsight properly. for example I have always traces on. I have an old gunsight that I got from bustr a couple of years ago and I use it to actually aim with it. I can see the tracers falling short but at the same time I see flashes hitting the airplane. I have told bustr many times that that gunsight is like cheating in the game. of course I am not as accurate as I used to be with it because I dont play as much. but you get the point.
the reason I have tracers on is more of a "scare the other guy" , I'll shoot at the guy I am following to either make him nervous and turn or cause him to break off somebody. normally it works.
but like i said before, actually using the gun sight properly works regardless of tracers. and before you look at my stats be aware that I always spend all ammo before I land. I want that coveted "wasted ammo" medal :)
semp
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but like i said before, actually using the gun sight properly works regardless of tracers.
semp
Which is the reason why turning off tracers is a good learning tool as it forces you to learn how to aim with your gun sight instead of the tracers. Once a player has learned to use the gun sight and properly gauge the lead and aim, having tracers on or off at that point is irrelevant and becomes a personal preference.
ack-ack
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I never use tracers, why give red icon in front any idea you are there ?
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I found that after the initial adjustment phase my aim got a little better (which isn't saying much) when I turned tracers off. Occasionally I turn them back on to reset my mental sight picture but in generally I prefer to have them off.
Besides when you miss as much as I do I don't want them to know I'm shooting at them. ;)
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It would be cool if we could choose the amount of tracer rounds fired.
I agree with this 100%, as a matter of fact I posted it in the wishlist and received very little feedback. Would like know to here how others feel about it.
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From my understanding about tracers being used to signal a pilot has "x" # of rounds left... Sqy the last 100rounds..... I would load those tracers halfway through my ammo not on the end when i am out.
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A long time ago, I quit using tracers and my gunnery started to climb above 10%. I haven't looked back. To each, his own; ymmv.
Ammo
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Dead six isn't the sure shot, it's the most difficult.
beat me to it. :aok
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I do often wonder how the tracers are modeled. Tracers were typically hollowed out bullets filled with flammable compounds, and when burned off, left the bullet lighter affecting the trajectory. While close, the were not accurate and better used as a general guide rather than a precise indicator of where the bullets are hitting.
It seems to me, in game, that the tracers are actually showing a different trajectory than the bullets, and over time I tend to go without since I am already adjusting for the difference, might as well avoid the distraction.
Not sure if it's imagined or modeled though :)
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Sure makes films look more exciting...
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I never use tracers, why give red icon in front any idea you are there ?
Yeah that way you have a chance to escape unnoticed after you've spent all your ammo and missing. :x
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I found that after the initial adjustment phase my aim got a little better (which isn't saying much) when I turned tracers off. Occasionally I turn them back on to reset my mental sight picture but in generally I prefer to have them off.
Besides when you miss as much as I do I don't want them to know I'm shooting at them. ;)
LOL!!! "....miss as much as I do...." LOL!!! righttttttt!
You one of those guys I fear giving ANY shot opportunity, Greebo, Twinboom and fester are a few others. Most guys should you have to pass in front of their guns you can add a roll or twist and it's enough to have them miss. You guys that shoot in the +10% range are the upper few percent of ALL the players according to Lusche charts.
I'd be happy to be able to maintain half of your hit percentage Souls :furious
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I never really had a problem with aiming, tracers on or off i still get 14% hit percentage if not higher. I could be gone over a year and come back and would take one day to get it back.
More I think about it with Track IR I really dont even use my gunsight that much unless I am chasing someone down thats 4-600 front of me, otherwise everything I do is snap shots and I try to get where I can take a wing off (seems to take far less damage to come off then trying to aim from the front to the back which almost never seems to down someone except spray some oil).
It probably comes down to my way of flying, in a Yak-3 for example, I never would fire unless I am closer then 200 yards, same for a Hurricane I or spitfire I.
If I am in a P47 - spray like hell, even with 267 rpg package you can still fire off a squirt and have 20 more sprays. Something like a Yak you dont get that luxury.
/what I do lose over time is ACM, and SA - i have to completely restart and relearn everything - aiming just never was a problem, its keeping my airspeed up and not falling below my rules.
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I never really had a problem with aiming, tracers on or off i still get 14% hit percentage if not higher. I could be gone over a year and come back and would take one day to get it back.
More I think about it with Track IR I really dont even use my gunsight that much unless I am chasing someone down thats 4-600 front of me, otherwise everything I do is snap shots and I try to get where I can take a wing off (seems to take far less damage to come off then trying to aim from the front to the back which almost never seems to down someone except spray some oil).
It probably comes down to my way of flying, in a Yak-3 for example, I never would fire unless I am closer then 200 yards, same for a Hurricane I or spitfire I.
If I am in a P47 - spray like hell, even with 267 rpg package you can still fire off a squirt and have 20 more sprays. Something like a Yak you dont get that luxury.
/what I do lose over time is ACM, and SA - i have to completely restart and relearn everything - aiming just never was a problem, its keeping my airspeed up and not falling below my rules.
wish I could aim :cry
I think the highest I have seen my hit% was 9....only because I went after a few bombers that tour. :rofl :rofl
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After all this time in the game. I wish tracers on\off was a check box in the hanger with each ride where you select fuel and load outs. The file that would hold it probably could be stored to the aircraftname.cfg file which holds your convergence info. Default, it would be "on" if the file were deleted or a new install. I suspect more players would experiment with it then. As is, the inconvenience of drilling into the clipboard options menu makes a last minute change of mind a "bite me" deal along with even remembering where it is.
As the game is presented now, the tracers are good for filling the time void while you wait for the results when you pull the trigger. Without tracers, taking a 400-600 yard shot has an empty timing point while you wait, which really becomes apparent. During that moment your only course is to keep glued to your con till feed back happens. You and he can make at least one major move during that period polluting your expected feedback to help you aim. Straffing at ground targets is another time wait until you receive the impact feedback to then make your next move decision.
Tracers off forces you to learn how to aim developing a sight picture like learning long range tactical shooting. Tracers on allows minor mistakes that can be adjusted visa redirecting the tracer stream if you have developed a basic sight picture understanding. Otherwise you need to visit a Trainer to learn how to develop the concept of a sight picture in air to air combat.
Sometimes offline shooting at drones with the LCG turned on. I've wished that it were augmented with a lead holdoff ring edge, or ring that changes diameter to give the appropriate lead edge relative to range and combined speeds in the same color green. It would use the cross as it's center pipper. This would help develop the sight picture of 5, 10, 20 and 30 degree hold off or 90 degree snapshots say to 800 yards shown in the WW2 manual "Bag the Hun". I suspect many players never deduce the relationship of the green cross to divisions of their main ring for hold off values. Having a green ring edge combined with the cross would go a long way to helping develop a sight picture. I'll bet just like the green cross shows inside of the cockpit, a lead ring would show how much to blind pull the nose.
Semp mentioned a gunsight I gave him that makes him feel like he's cheating. I tried to account for the LCG movement offline while combining the instructional devices of "Bag the Hun". Turns out if you read the tech manual for a K14 about how the gyroscopic precession works and film shooting drones with trails on. The playback kind of acts as a picture book how to make the gunsights when you stop frame. I gave Messiah one of these a while back. He seemed to be able to average 5-7 kills every sortie with his 47.
Making gunnery easier to learn will help some new customers feel less frustrated and more willing to stick around. After all, the K14 was the AAF admitting to the fact only a very small percentage of people can hit anything from a moving aircraft without a lot of help.
Hey semp, I want to make you feel really guilty. PM me and I will give you a gen8. You have a gen1.
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Tracers throw me off when I shoot, I haven't used em in years. But I also shoot from any angle, like shooting any bird in flight once you've seen it move through the air enough you can guess with pretty good accuracy where your bullets need to go. Just takes time.
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Most common pre war activity of the majority of fighter aces. Bird shooting.
Most common problem for the rest of the fighter pilots. Judging lead in low E turns 100-600 yards.
Why both the Allies and Germany came up with gyroscopic precession compensating gunsights K14 and EZ42. Japan was working on a prototype near the end, Type4 Model3.
Many AAF pilots in the pacific using the active gyroscopic compensating K14 after moving from the fixed 101Mil ring N9 or MK8, or even MkII. Complained that if they had to shut off the 6-star compensation reticle and go back to the 70Mil fixed ring, they couldn't calculate the lead anymore with a 70Mil ring. This is why the NAVY quickly moved to the 100Mil Mk8 in 1941 and nearly all allied fighters entering the ETO were retrofitted with British MkII to take advantage of the large ring for lead shooting. The AAF did not upgrade it's N3 to a 70Mil ring until 43 while most AAF Mk8 were mounted from the factory in P47 with P38 being upgraded to L3. N9 were field mounted into some fighters but, never became a factory standard due to the arrival of the K14 and fitting issues.
Note on factory installed N9:
◾all P-51D up to P-51D-20-NT 44-12852 and P-51D-20-NA 44-72226 (c). Contrary to what has often been written, the N-9 was never fitted to the P-51B & C as the required number of modifications to the cockpit and additional parts to be fabricated was considered ineffective.
◾P-63 from P-63A-10 through P-63C-5 replacing the N-3C gunsight.
◾A-26 (later B-26) replacing the N-3B or N-3C gunsight.
Learning gunnery in this game is hard for the average player. Based on Pareto's Principle of 80\20. Most of us have bad hit% in the game. I bet Lusche can prove that by pulling stats on all active individual players for any recent tour.
It would help retain newbies if the offline LCG gunsight had an active ring that changed diameter along with the computations from the green cross that holds it to the correct lead at range so new players can see how many rings, or smaller division of a ring to visualize holding over, above or under. That's what the hand book "Bag the Hun" was trying to teach in it's cartoonish format.
If someone is asking if tracers help with gunnery. It's more likely the player needs gunnery help and is working through improving his gunnery in general.
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Learning gunnery in this game is hard for the average player. Based on Pareto's Principle of 80\20. Most of us have bad hit% in the game. I bet Lusche can prove that by pulling stats on all active individual players for any recent tour.
You called, Sir?
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/hitperc163_zps1858283c.jpg)
As some players have freakishly high hit% while having only one or two sorties in fighter mode (coming across a formation of low buffs and then switching to attack mode for the rest of the tour), I simply limited this analysis to all pilots that had at least 100 sorties in fighter mode.
That's hundreds of players who collectively have more than 2/3rd of all fighter mode sorties & kills in the LW MA.
Clarification 12.02% pilots at 6% hit percentage means 12.02% of all those pilots with at least 100 sorties had a hit % between 6.00 and 7.99%
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Uhh... if you're on someone's six whose saddled up on another guy and he starts seeing your tracers flying by, it will alert him to your presence. This is big when using MGs where you will have to hit consistently for a slightly longer amount of time.
If he's saddled up on your buddy then you want him to know you're shooting at him.
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If he's saddled up on your buddy then you want him to know you're shooting at him.
Yes, this is probably the most important factor when you want someone to break of your wingman's 6 it is good idea to make him see your tracers
even if you can't hit. It would be one of the primary reasons to have them on. Usually when pilot sees tracers near him he breaks for good.
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From: Lusche
You called, Sir?
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/hitperc163_zps1858283c.jpg)
As some players have freakishly high hit% while having only one or two sorties in fighter mode (coming across a formation of low buffs and then switching to attack mode for the rest of the tour), I simply limited this analysis to all pilots that had at least 100 sorties in fighter mode.
That's hundreds of players who collectively have more than 2/3rd of all fighter mode sorties & kills in the LW MA.
Clarification 12.02% pilots at 6% hit percentage means 12.02% of all those pilots with at least 100 sorties had a hit % between 6.00 and 7.99%
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Not far off from some of the numbers I've seen in AAF reports from WW2.
After the K14 was in use, the numbers became skewed because many of the upper 80% started on their way to becoming 20%er's based on raw hit% per enemy combat action. I think the hit rates in general by pilots went up by 35-40% due to the active lead compensation from the K14. Especially once AAF command issued direct orders forcing all pilots to learn how to use it and stop switching it off for the 70Mil fixed ring. And then the reports from the PTO by pilots who having transitioned from large 100-105Mil ring N9, Mk8 or GM MKII to the K14. When the bulbs burned out or the gyroscopes malfunctioned. They no longer could calculate lead using the fixed 70Mil ring against Japanese fighters.
The problem had to do with the high speeds of the fighters. Gunners in bombers used a 2Rad system of rings 35Mil and 70Mil. The fighters were coming to them. Fighter to fighter needed a 3Rad or 100-105Mil ring to account for lead at their higher relative speeds. I'm still researching why the British terms stayed in use of 100mph or 70mph describing 3Rad and 2Rad rings. The AAF N-3 gun sights were referred to as 70mph gun sights and the British refused them if they could with lend lease aircraft. Or first thing swapped them out for MKII.
Again my reasoning for a dynamic diameter changing ring coupled with the LCG's green cross. While the cross gives you the point to place the center of your gun sight, the ring changes diameter to show you a relative sight picture over your fixed "gunsight.bmp" to see how many divisions of your ring you are holding over in your lead. A starting point for the new player to understand visualizing a sight picture and why it works the way it does.
OR
A place for players in general to use as a benchmark against problems they see in the game.
By the way, I think the LCG cross is calculating lead to the nearest extremity of the drone like the extreme tip of a bomber's inside wing. And even when you saw that wing off. It still calculates for that point in space regardless.
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Gun percentage have much to do what plane you are flying, flying the A5 with 4 cannons would be one of the worst with 3 different trajectories.
I have much better gun% with the 109s than I ever will get in the 190s.
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so I got the new updated gunsight from bustr. now I dont play as much as I used to, so my aiming is not as good as it used to be. anyway so I get into a fight with this p38 and I raked from head to toe when he tried to reverse. I just followed the line on the gunsight. next thing I know is I get a pm calling me a hacker as there's no way i could have made that shot as many g's as he was pulling.
I got another pm today one today, from another guy who thought it's impossible to make shots like that. so please dont blame me, I am not a hacker. blame bustr for that gunsight was his idea. it was his fault. leave me out of it.
semp
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so I got the new updated gunsight from bustr. now I dont play as much as I used to, so my aiming is not as good as it used to be. anyway so I get into a fight with this p38 and I raked from head to toe when he tried to reverse. I just followed the line on the gunsight. next thing I know is I get a pm calling me a hacker as there's no way i could have made that shot as many g's as he was pulling.
I got another pm today one today, from another guy who thought it's impossible to make shots like that. so please dont blame me, I am not a hacker. blame bustr for that gunsight was his idea. it was his fault. leave me out of it.
semp
:rofl :rofl
people are funny.
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What gunsight is that?
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Jeez. Can't believe Leviathn used to hit up sometimes near 20% back in the old days. I'd usually hover around 11-15%.
You called, Sir?
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/hitperc163_zps1858283c.jpg)
As some players have freakishly high hit% while having only one or two sorties in fighter mode (coming across a formation of low buffs and then switching to attack mode for the rest of the tour), I simply limited this analysis to all pilots that had at least 100 sorties in fighter mode.
That's hundreds of players who collectively have more than 2/3rd of all fighter mode sorties & kills in the LW MA.
Clarification 12.02% pilots at 6% hit percentage means 12.02% of all those pilots with at least 100 sorties had a hit % between 6.00 and 7.99%
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Yes, this is probably the most important factor when you want someone to break of your wingman's 6 it is good idea to make him see your tracers
even if you can't hit. It would be one of the primary reasons to have them on. Usually when pilot sees tracers near him he breaks for good.
I would argue the opposite. If I'm being hit but can't see which direction the tracer is coming from, I'm more likely to break off due to not being 100% certain of whose shooting at me, and from where.
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If he's saddled up on your buddy then you want him to know you're shooting at him.
He'll know when either he's starting to lose parts or he's in the tower already. I'd rather be invisible until I get a sure fire killing shot.
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I don't use tracers and haven't used them for about 10 years....
Why? Nath defined most reasons I don't use them.
1) Tracers can alert my target (and every other nearby bad guy who sees them).
2) Tracers alert GVs if I'm strafing.
3) In a Wirbel or field ack, the enemy doesn't know he's being shot at until he's hit.
It's all about stealth and deception....
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I aim with my tracers. In fact I've turned off the gunsight in my p47m.
I fly every other plane with a special sight made by Bustr. Its similar to the Mk8M6, but with some tracking lines on the sides for low deflect shots. It's hard to explain, but you basically put the target between these two lines as you lead, then watch it go boom.
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Always use tracers crew, checking in.