Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: shoresroad on September 30, 2013, 03:18:06 AM
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I'm no expert, but after being shot down probably a thousand times over the last 9 months and watching the films of my death, I'm seeing a real trend among the top pilots who kill me...a super tight high climbing sudden reversal that resembles a 180 degree pivot. Sometimes it's a true loop, but more often than not it is a pivot at the top of a steep climb or a steep climb with a 180 degree role at the top then nose down that can often beat a flat turn or oblique loop. It's how many top sticks win the game of angles and get inside my reversal.
I started this thread just to get the discussion going. I know there is a whole lot more to dogfighting, but when things get dicey and tight I now realize I can almost count on a sudden climb and some kind of a 180 degree pivot at the top with the pilot dropping on my head. By working on both how to do this and how to counter it over the past 3 months my k/d has gone from about 0.75 to the 1.25 - 1.75 range.
I'm not suggesting anyone should become a "one trick pony" but this is one trick that I have been worn out with and I think should be in every noob's offensive and defensive game plan from day one.
My take, yes you need to work on SA, energy management, other maneuvers. But the high yo-yo reversal is difficult to master and counter (at least for me) and so often used in the MA by top sticks I think it should be high on the list of first things a noob should be working on immediately. It became almost my routine manner of death from good sticks, and now that I'm using it and defending against it as best I can I'm turning what used to be 1 or 2 reversal deaths into an occasional brouhaha that sometimes I now win against some pretty good sticks. If nothing else I can sometimes make them work harder at killing me :lol
Take it from here, experts and trainers...exemplary films would be a great start.
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Excellent write up Shoresroad. I too have this problem, and if they get on my 6 I might as well just give up. Very rarely do I survive and get them. :(
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Sounds more like a barrel roll then a high yoyo shoresroad. When you fly by underneath it appears that the bandit is pivoting because your point of view is moving. It would help if you posted a film.
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Sound like it might be a classic rope, or as FLS said it's a barrel roll and the pivot at the top is the moment you're overshooting. Film would be a huge help in explaining this stuff, I'll see if I have any saved of these two situations.
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Shoresroad what plane do you fly most?
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The loop is what that Japanese ace used (can't think of name) to just destroy wildcats and such by stalling them out for an easy kill.
Everything else is what I call "roping" like I'm pulling you up behind (you thinking you have a shot to get me) but you lose your airspeed a lot faster than I did because you pulled so hard to get behind me (which killed your energy). As I'm above you on verge of complete stall I would cut throttle and roll over and begin to come down as you spin helplessly. :)
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In the K4, I make extensive use of roping and high yo-yo's. Because you can't really maneuver with a lot of planes, you have to make use of your engine power to generate angles in the vertical. A big reason I like the high yo-yo is that it gives you a great opportunity to unload your aircraft, and make a much easier shot.
One thing I find that (personally) throws me when I'm going for a yo-yo is when my target split-S's. It increases vertical separation (and a good pilot won't squander a lot of altitude on one kill), as well as putting your direction of travel relatively close to 180 degrees away from your attacker.
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Thanks for everybody's feedback so far. Rather than a bunch of replies, this is to FLS, Latrobe and Joach1M:
IRL I have a civilian pilot's license (single engine land) including some basic aerobatics training in a Great Lakes Biplane. Does that make me a better player in AH...NO! :lol
But what I'm seeing in one version of this maneuver is what I was taught as a Hammerhead Stall. Climb straight up full throttle at about an 80 degree angle, and then just before the stall and still at full throttle kick hard rudder towards the torque pull and the plane will snap around 180 degrees. You can control the stall point by pulling back on your throttle for just a moment, but the rudder kick is at full throttle as you're counting on the torque to snap you around more than the rudder. It is a pretty violent maneuver. In AH I have asked two very good pilots to show me their version of this maneuver and one did exactly as described above but throttled back a bit to avoid going into a spin from the snap of the torque. The other pilot was able to do it full throttle with WEP and maintain control of his plane. I haven't been able to pull it off yet without throttling back, but at full throttle with WEP his reversal was an amazingly quick pivot.
The other version I have seen done two ways. Straight up at about 80 degrees, then a 180 degree roll inverted and then stick full back with flaps out and just enough throttle to get over the top but keep the loop as tight as they can as they pull their nose up. The other version they begin the roll during the climb but do basically the same thing at the top. I also see a little rudder and/or aileron as they go over the top to get their nose where they want it headed as they come down.
This is not a barrel roll as I was taught IRL, but I was not taught combat ACM or any consideration given to flying against an opponent, so maybe it is. I'm not on their six when I see this. It is their move as we pass the 3-9 line on a co-alt merge. It is also the move I see from good pilots if they come in with an Alt and E advantage and start to pick me to death...up and down over and over again with very quick pivots at the top. The first version is the move I do see often used at the top of a rope, but I no longer follow anyone up for a rope. If I'm at high speed sometimes I will go into a merge but not reverse and just look back to watch their reversal. If it's super snappy it gives me an idea of the caliber of pilot I'm about to go up against and I very often see some form of this. Of course I don't do this at slow speeds as they will immediately be on my six.
I'll try to find some film, but I was mostly watching all this 2 or 3 months ago and now it is buried in a million other films. But the next time I see one I will post the film.
I'm also going to go back to my trainer to see if he's still active and ask him to beat me to death in the vertical once a week so I can continue to work on this :lol
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Shoresroad what plane do you fly most?
I fly bombers about 50% of the time and fighters the rest of the time. And I get bored with any plane after about 3 sorties (let alone 3 weeks or 3 months). So knowing I will always be a Jack of all Trades and a Master of None by doing this I have a hand full of favorites I fly, those being the P-47, F4U1-A, Spitfires, Ki-84 and the 109's. I do better with this small group than by falling asleep from "same plane" boredom in the middle of a dogfight :lol
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Of late I have made myself watch the speed indicator on a vertical chase then break off early if the closure is weakening.
Old P38 AH threads speak of a P38 flop at the top of the rope. Not sure how that was done either.
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If you watch films from the fixed view with trails on you can usually see what the other player is doing.
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I think we all need to see what you see and film is the only answer.
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If you watch films from the fixed view with trails on you can usually see what the other player is doing.
Hi FLS,
Yep, that's how I figured out what these guys were doing to get around on me so fast at the top. It's not their only move, but definitely one of the "go to" moves for many. It keeps the fight almost entirely vertical and I've found it difficult to counter or execute. But it's what I'm working on currently and just thought it might make for a good conversation.
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I will get a new film or find an old film as soon as possible. In the mean time here is a definition of a Hammerhead Stall that describes what I'm seeing in the first case:
1/4 loop (pull or push) to vertical, as momentum/airspeed decreases, rudder is applied and the aircraft rotates around its yaw axis, the nose falls through the horizon and points towards the ground, a momentary pause is made to draw the vertical down line, and 1/4 loop to level flight. This figure is sometimes called a stall turn which is a misnomer because the aircraft never actually stalls. The manoeuvre is performed when the aeroplane decelerates through 20 - 30kts (more or less, depending on the aeroplane flown) of airspeed. The cartwheel portion of the hammerhead is performed with full rudder and full opposite aileron. Gyroscopic forces from the propeller during the rapid rate of yaw will produce a pitching and rolling moment and a degree of forward stick will be required to keep the aeroplane from coming off-line over the top. The yaw is stopped with opposite rudder while the ailerons and elevator remain in position, then once the yaw is stopped and the aeroplane is pointed down vertically, all controls are returned to neutral together. Although they can be flown left or right in any aeroplane with the proper technique, a hammerhead is best flown to the left with a clockwise rotating prop, and to the right with an anticlockwise rotating prop (as in a Yakovlev type), due to propeller torque/gyroscopic effects.
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Of late I have made myself watch the speed indicator on a vertical chase then break off early if the closure is weakening.
Old P38 AH threads speak of a P38 flop at the top of the rope. Not sure how that was done either.
Randy, it's actually pretty easy. At the top of the climb, cut one engine, rudder over towards the cut engine, and turn in that direction. You'll be able to seemingly pivot the 38 on its tail.
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The loop is what that Japanese ace used (can't think of name) to just destroy wildcats and such by stalling them out for an easy kill.
Everything else is what I call "roping" like I'm pulling you up behind (you thinking you have a shot to get me) but you lose your airspeed a lot faster than I did because you pulled so hard to get behind me (which killed your energy). As I'm above you on verge of complete stall I would cut throttle and roll over and begin to come down as you spin helplessly. :)
Going vert :noid
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In the K4, I make extensive use of roping and high yo-yo's. Because you can't really maneuver with a lot of planes,
ehh proper throttle and flap management and the k4 will play with the "more agile" planes in the game. :aok
AH takes a long time to figure out. Quite a huge learning curve actually.i remember when I saw the first hammer head ingame....kazaa smacked me down with it. I spent MONTHS trying everything to perfect this hammerhead move but couldn't. Then came along the idea of cross controlling. This is pretty much the only way I can get a near perfect hammer head (in 109s at least) the f4u and ta152 with massive rudder movements it's a lot easier to drop flaps throttle boot right rudder and roll to the right down onto the enemy.
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Going vert :noid
my favorite *rubs hands together*
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I will get a new film or find an old film as soon as possible. In the mean time here is a definition of a Hammerhead Stall that describes what I'm seeing in the first case:
1/4 loop (pull or push) to vertical, as momentum/airspeed decreases, rudder is applied and the aircraft rotates around its yaw axis, the nose falls through the horizon and points towards the ground, a momentary pause is made to draw the vertical down line, and 1/4 loop to level flight. This figure is sometimes called a stall turn which is a misnomer because the aircraft never actually stalls. The manoeuvre is performed when the aeroplane decelerates through 20 - 30kts (more or less, depending on the aeroplane flown) of airspeed. The cartwheel portion of the hammerhead is performed with full rudder and full opposite aileron. Gyroscopic forces from the propeller during the rapid rate of yaw will produce a pitching and rolling moment and a degree of forward stick will be required to keep the aeroplane from coming off-line over the top. The yaw is stopped with opposite rudder while the ailerons and elevator remain in position, then once the yaw is stopped and the aeroplane is pointed down vertically, all controls are returned to neutral together. Although they can be flown left or right in any aeroplane with the proper technique, a hammerhead is best flown to the left with a clockwise rotating prop, and to the right with an anticlockwise rotating prop (as in a Yakovlev type), due to propeller torque/gyroscopic effects.
The hammerhead is an aerobatic move that's rarely seen in Aces High. It's as rare as a tail slide. Hammerheads are misnamed as stall turns in real flying but conversely in Aces High stall turns are called hammerheads and tail slides. It's possible to do hammerheads by reducing throttle but it's difficult to maintain proper alignment and it's generally too slow for combat. The F2b does a nice hammerhead and the P-38 can do it with rudder or asymmetrical thrust. If you have film of a hammerhead in a fight I'd enjoy seeing it.
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The hammerhead is an aerobatic move that's rarely seen in Aces High. It's as rare as a tail slide. Hammerheads are misnamed as stall turns in real flying but conversely in Aces High stall turns are called hammerheads and tail slides. It's possible to do hammerheads by reducing throttle but it's difficult to maintain proper alignment and it's generally too slow for combat. The F2b does a nice hammerhead and the P-38 can do it with rudder or asymmetrical thrust. If you have film of a hammerhead in a fight I'd enjoy seeing it.
Will do :) as some of the good pilots are using it in the MA (I can think of three immediately). I rode with and fought one of them in the DA several weeks ago who can do them in a Ki-84 without losing control at full throttle and WEP (so far I do lose control and go into a wicked spin in the Ki-84). It is one of his bread and butter moves, although he has many. I'm hoping he will see this thread and jump in. I don't want to name him as he did me a favor in showing me his way after beating me to death with the move. With that Ki-84 he would climb and gain altitude and then cartwheel that 84 on it's yaw axis and typically drop down from above me and inside whatever I was trying to do. If I maintained altitude with him he would do something else, but the moment he realized he could use it he would pop up, cartwheel and come down inside me :lol He called it something else, but when I rode with him as he explained what he was doing I realized it was a hammerhead stall as described in the text I posted above. Another pilot I rode with just a few days ago took me through the same maneuver in a P-47M and it was not as snappy as the Ki-84, but as he described it, it was straight up, then full rudder with torque and opposite aileron - another hammerhead although he called it a high yo-yo. And he uses it frequently to great effect, so I just thought it was the "in" thing to do :lol
Just thought I would bring it up for discussion as most noobs live in a horizontal world of flat turns or loops and split-s's and when I get beat by a good pilot it is usually by his ability to gain altitude and quickly reverse getting inside whatever I'm doing. Probably many ways to do that, but when I saw several using hammerheads to do it I decided to work on them.
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A little off topic but you might enjoy this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuTycIGXfno
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A little off topic but you might enjoy this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuTycIGXfno
Simply amazing! Who is Ottopylot? Is this you FLS...if so where do I sign up for training :aok
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The Hammerhead, or Stall Turn as FLS says it is, in it's simplest terms is just out climbing your opponent. This is usually done by having a superior climbing plane like a 109K4, but you can do it by having an Energy Advantage too. A P-40 doing 400mph will out climb a 109 who is only going 200mph, even though the 109 has a better climb rate. Go into a gently climb, pull few G's, and watch as your opponent just can't climb with you. When you see him start to nose down or stall out then you loop over and dive on him. If you time it right then you can shoot them just as they stall out. Best way to counter this is to simply not climb with them. Level off, gain some speed, go into a shallow climb away from them to try and neutralize some of that altitude advantage they will be getting and wait for them the make the first move. When they come diving down then use their speed against them to force and overshoot.
The other version you explained with the 80 degree climb and then a 180 roll I'm not quite sure what that is yet. I'm not good at picturing these things in my head. If I can't see it then I haven't a clue. I'm a hands on person. I understand it better if I can physically see it and watch how it works.
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You don't need training for that shoresroad, just practice snap rolls at different climb angles. Unfortunately the film recorder doesn't show control surface movement but you do see the flaps. Play with throttle and the timing of stick and rudder input. Except the not quite vertical tail slide and the turns it's all variations on stalling one wing.
Lepape2 does it in combat. Check out his videos if you haven't seen them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HPaXGUDrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX73JT3o4GM
And yes that was me, my first video with Vegas Movie Studio.
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Hi Latrobe,
I've fought you and flown with you, and you are one of the best pilots that I've seen in the game.
At this stage I'm trying not to get beat on angles after a cold merge. Sometimes it takes 2 or 3, or 6 or 8 merges, but a great pilot will eventually get inside me, or on top of me, or both, and I'm trying to work on ways to not let that happen. When I realize I've been beat on a reversal after a merge I try to extend again and reset (only thing I know to do) rather than fight my way out which never works for me (my bag of tricks ain't that good yet). By extending to reset I at least get another shot at a new merge under hopefully equal advantage again. This frustrates many good pilots who want to hurry up and finish me off, but I learn more from having another go and sometimes after seeing their first few merges I can then beat them or replicate what they are dong and turn it into a stalemate.
What you're talking about sounds more like what to do and not to do when you are on someone's six, or if someone is on your six. At the moment I'm trying to work on keeping them off my six when they come in on my twelve :) Maybe its the same topic :lol I don't like furballs much as they seem like chaotic random killing, so I look more for 1v1's as often as I can as in a furball even if I get the advantage on my primary target I'm often killed by another red guy I don't even see coming in from another angle. On the Military Channel I seldom see WWII aerial combat footage where a pilot is in danger of being killed by 6 or 8 different boogies all within 3 or 4 seconds of striking range. The furballs in AH look more like something out of WWI than WWII, so I try to avoid furballs and look for 1v1's on their edges or in route. That's why I'm focused so much on the merge at the moment.
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Furballs like the ones that happen in the MA did occur historically. I would say that dueling situations were comparatively rarer. Most of the time the loser never saw it coming. That said, furballing is almost an entirely different skill set. It requires high SA, good judgement, and an eye for opportunity. On the other hand, dueling is very much like a game of chess, with the winner invariably being the one who makes the fewest mistakes. (Said person usually being not me.) I've played this game and others like it for years, and I'm still not very good at dueling. That said, here's a few bits of dueling wisdom that I've picked up:
1. Know what your plane will do, and know what the other guy's plane can do, and plan your strategy accordingly.
2. Energy state trumps almost everything, so learn how to read both your own and your opponent's.
3. Learn how to fly your plane while looking out of every view, especially the rear, rear up, up, and forward up views. By this I don't mean just level flight. You need to know how to execute combat maneuvers while looking in any direction. The best practice I've found is to execute a barrel roll until you've got it in your muscle memory, then do it with your eyes closed, then do it looking out a different view.
4. Study the film, study the film and study the film. There's always one spot where you can see the tide of the battle turning.
5. Spend your energy wisely. Know when it's safe to store up some alt at the cost of getting slow, and know when to burn alt to get fast.
6. When all else fails, break away, grab some alt, and get back into the fight.
7. Always try to add an out-of-plane maneuver whenever possible. Add a vertical element, or change the angle of your turn so it is outside the plane of maneuver of your opponent. If he's in a flat turn, go vertical, if he's in the straight-up vertical, make your moves 10 or 20 degrees off. Try not to turn at the same angle as your opponent.
8. Learn to use your roll rate to change direction in the vertical.
Hope that helps.
-Muzzy
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I don't like furballs much as they seem like chaotic random killing
Yes, it is chaotic, but it's calculated chaos. Going into a furball there are several different correct "paths" to take (paths being a set series of moves that will take place). Some paths have more survivable options than others, some paths lead to only 1 survivable option. The trick is picking the right options instead of the wrong options, which is rather difficult if you aren't a pilot who can read 10 moves ahead. I know I can't! I very much just make things up as I go. :)
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Randy, it's actually pretty easy. At the top of the climb, cut one engine, rudder over towards the cut engine, and turn in that direction. You'll be able to seemingly pivot the 38 on its tail.
Katanaso, I will give that a go. I had wondered for awhile what the P38 flop was. I had guessed it was a tail slide flop but could never get that to work.