Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on September 30, 2013, 03:00:42 PM
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:airplane: The German expression is how the P-38 received its nick name of "Fork Tailed Devil"! In 1935, the USAAC asked for plans for a high altitude fighter-interceptor, which could fly at 360MPH! Several companies summited plans, Boeing, Consolidated, Curtis, Douglas and Vultee, and Lockheed.
Lockheed won the design contract with engineers Hall Hibbard and "Kelly" Johnson doing the design of the P-38. On June 23, 1937, Lockheed received the contract for 1 unarmed P-38 and work proceeded on the XP-38 as it was designated. First flight was on Jan 27th, 1939 and the "lightening" quickly exceeded its design goals, hitting 409MPH at 20,000 feet.
10,038 P-38's were built, 4,000 of them the "L" model. 90% of the aerial recon patrol pictures of Eureope were taken by a P-38. The first escorted mission to Berlin and back was by P-38's, but because of its ability to range at long distances, up to 1,000 miles and return, it soon was mainly used in the South Pacific. On August 14, 1942, was the first American aircraft to shoot down a German aircraft, a FW-200 patrol bomber over Iceland.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/p-38_zps6fc32d9d.jpg)
As with any long-term production aircraft, the P-38 underwent many modifications. The fastest of the modifications was the P-38J with a top speed of 420 mph, and the version produced in the greatest quantity was the "L," of which 3,735 were built by Lockheed and 113 by Vultee. The P-38J intakes under the engines were enlarged to house core-type intercoolers. The curved windscreen was replaced by a flat panel, and the boom mounted radiators were enlarged. Some were fitted with bombardier type noses, and were used to lead formations of bomb-laden P-38s to their targets. The P-38M was a two-seat radar-equipped Night Fighter, a few of which had become operational before the war ended.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/456px-Lockheed_F-5_Lightning_zps82094f37.jpg) One of the Photo recon P-38's over Europe, note the extended nose for camera equipment.
The first unit to receive P-38s was the 1st Fighter Group. After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the unit joined the 14th Pursuit Group in San Diego to provide West Coast defense.The first Lightning to see active service was the F-4 version, a P-38E in which the guns were replaced by four K17 cameras. They joined the 8th Photographic Squadron out of Australia on 4 April 1942. Three F-4s were operated by the Royal Australian Air Force in this theater for a short period beginning in September 1942.
On 29 May 1942, 25 P-38s began operating in the Aleutian Islands in Alaska. The fighter's long range made it well-suited to the campaign over the almost 1,200 mi (2,000 km)–long island chain, and it would be flown there for the rest of the war. The Aleutians were one of the most rugged environments available for testing the new aircraft under combat conditions. More Lightnings were lost due to severe weather and other conditions than enemy action, and there were cases where Lightning pilots, mesmerized by flying for hours over gray seas under gray skies, simply flew into the water. On 9 August 1942, two P-38Es of the 343rd Fighter Group, 11th Air Force, at the end of a 1,000 mi (1,609 km) long-range patrol, happened upon a pair of Japanese Kawanishi H6K "Mavis" flying boats and destroyed them, making them the first Japanese aircraft to be shot down by Lightnings.
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/P38-joltin_zpsd8df5749.jpg) One of the 20 or so restored P-38's privately owned shows its lines and color.
The P-38 had a long and storied history, destroy in aerial combat more Japanese aircraft than any other American fighter, and was finally retired by the Honduran Air Force in 1965.
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Excellent post! The P-38 is one of my all time favorite aircraft. I had the pleasure and honor of seeing Red Bull's stunningly beautiful P-38 (former White Lighting) at the local air show here last year.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/Bod%C3%B8%20Air%20Show%202012/P-38Side2.jpg)
Captured some video with my phone cam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjUizl-4rIE
Btw. the Germans didn't really call the P-38 "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel", but it's one of those great myths that should have been true! ;)
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:rock
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The P-38 had a long and storied history, destroy in aerial combat more Japanese aircraft than any other American fighter,
That credit goes to the F6F Hellcat, it shot down more Japanese fighters than any other US fighter in the Pacific. The P-38's credit of most Japanese planes is only when its compared to other USAAF fighters.
ack-ack
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Excellent post! The P-38 is one of my all time favorite aircraft. I had the pleasure and honor of seeing Red Bull's stunningly beautiful P-38 (former White Lighting) at the local air show here last year.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/Bod%C3%B8%20Air%20Show%202012/P-38Side2.jpg)
Captured some video with my phone cam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjUizl-4rIE
Btw. the Germans didn't really call the P-38 "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel", but it's one of those great myths that should have been true! ;)
:airplane: That was a remark made the USAF history on the P-38! I had always thought it was the Japanese which named it such!
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That credit goes to the F6F Hellcat, it shot down more Japanese fighters than any other US fighter in the Pacific. The P-38's credit of most Japanese planes is only when its compared to other USAAF fighters.
ack-ack
:airplane: Again that was a post on the USAF and other sites, but I think it was in regards to Dick Bong, I think was his name, I think he had something like 39 kills and serveral others destroyed on the ground. I would like to see some figures on how many the 38 shot down and the F6F shot down. Might interesting!
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The F6F accounted for 75% of all aerial victories recorded by the U.S. Navy in the Pacific.[32] Radar-equipped Hellcat night fighter squadrons appeared in early 1944.
Navy and Marine F6F pilots flew 66,530 combat sorties and claimed 5,163 kills (56% of all U.S. Naval/Marine air victories of the war) at a recorded cost of 270 Hellcats (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1).[33] The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents with a claimed 13:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M, 9.5:1 against Nakajima Ki-84, and 3.7:1 against the Mitsubishi J2M during the last year of the war.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/F6F-Hellcat/153559104743243
The P-38 had around 1800 claims vs the Japanese. The F4F around 2100 claims.
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The Pacific War was in many ways the "Russian Front" for the Americans. In the air the US pilots faced an enemy that was tactically naive and flew inferior aircraft for most of the war. On the ground the war was savage, fought with a brutality unimaginable to people who haven't lived through it. If the Japanese had the production capacity of the USSR, American pilots might well have approached, if not matched or even exceeded the German kill tallies on the Russian Front.
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The P-38... One of the best twin-engine fighters. That is until the F7F arrived....
Here we have a P-38F and P-38J bracketed by a pair of F7F-3N fighters. Think about it... The F7F had roughly twice the HP of the P-38F, and was only 25% heavier... Nearly 450 mph, and well over 5,000 ft per minute climb in WEP, the F7F was deemed the best piston-engine fighter ever designed by the U.S. Navy's Chief Test Pilot. The combination of four 20mm cannon and four .50 cal MGs made it one of the most lethal fighters to see squadron service in WWII. The F7F-2N missed combat by mere hours....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1292202_3491339297534_198171437_o.jpg)
(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/1/4/1801416.jpg)
One of my favorite youtube videos... An unmodified F7F-3N giving Bob Hoover's Old Yeller (modified P-51D) all it can handle....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kkilBoA3I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kkilBoA3I)
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The P-38... One of the best twin-engine fighters. That is until the F7F arrived....
Here we have a P-38F and P-38J bracketed by a pair of F7F-3N fighters. Think about it... The F7F had roughly twice the HP of the P-38F, and was only 25% heavier... Nearly 450 mph, and well over 5,000 ft per minute climb in WEP, the F7F was deemed the best piston-engine fighter ever designed by the U.S. Navy's Chief Test Pilot. The combination of four 20mm cannon and four .50 cal MGs made it one of the most lethal fighters to see squadron service in WWII. The F7F-2N missed combat by mere hours....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1292202_3491339297534_198171437_o.jpg)
(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/1/4/1801416.jpg)
One of my favorite youtube videos... An unmodified F7F-3N giving Bob Hoover's Old Yeller (modified P-51D) all it can handle....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kkilBoA3I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kkilBoA3I)
:airplane: No question about it, was truly a great fighter, which arrived to late for the big war, but I believe the F-82 could give it all it wanted in a one on one!
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:airplane: That was a remark made the USAF history on the P-38! I had always thought it was the Japanese which named it such!
I've heard both stories. Either that it was the Germans in North Africa, or the Japanese in the SW Pacific.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Sea_Hornet_F_Mk_30_-_001.jpg)
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Sea_Hornet_F_Mk_30_-_001.jpg)
:aok
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I've heard both stories. Either that it was the Germans in North Africa, or the Japanese in the SW Pacific.
It's most likely the creation of a US wartime correspondent trying to think up some nice little extra bit of 'oomph' in his story. Same with the Corsair's "whistling death" nickname supposedly given to it by the Japanese when it turned out to be a US war correspondent.
ack-ack
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It's most likely the creation of a US wartime correspondent trying to think up some nice little extra bit of 'oomph' in his story. Same with the Corsair's "whistling death" nickname supposedly given to it by the Japanese when it turned out to be a US war correspondent.
Agreed. The German and Japanese pilot reports &c, so far as I know, are devoid of any such reference.
Except I did read once that the Ju52 drivers in the Med used the term, although that's a very faint memory and probably not supportable by reliable sources.
- oldman
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:airplane: No question about it, was truly a great fighter, which arrived to late for the big war, but I believe the F-82 could give it all it wanted in a one on one!
Given equal pilots, same altitude, I think the P-82 (lets compare the P-82E) would be over-matched. The F7F-3 had 5,000 hp on tap (WEP), meaning the P-82 was down more that 1,200 hp. Both could reach 460 mph at 21,000 feet, but the F7F-3 would get to that altitude almost 2 minutes sooner. The F7F-3 had a lower wing loading, and stalled almost 35 mph slower than the Twin Mustang. This more than hints that in any kind of maneuver fight, the F7F-3 will dominate. Like the F6F, the Tigercat was designed to have docile handling around the boat. The F7F-3 had a far larger vertical stab (hydraulically boosted) than the F7F-1, which resulted in excellent control at low speeds, but a bit over-sensitive at high speed. During the Joint fighter conference, and F7F-1 was found to easily match the P-38L in turn radius.
The de Havilland Hornet F.3 is a closer match for the F7F-3. A bit faster than the F7F-3, it doesn't climb or accelerate quite as good below 15,000 feet The Hornet's wing loading is substantially greater than that of the F7F-3 (at standard fighter combat weight). The F7F-3 has around 95 square feet more wing area than the Hornet. Thus, the edge in maneuverability probably goes to the Tigercat.
Down low, the F7F-3 is a pure monster. 395 mph at sea level and well over 5,000 fpm climb rate... Chris Fahey, one of the Plane's of Fame pilots discussed the F7F with me. His comments were... "The F7F is faster than both (F8F and P-51D), certainly can't out-dogfight a Bearcat, and I don't think it would best a Mustang if it stayed in a turning fight too long. But it owns the vertical, can leave (the P-51) at will.. So I think the advantages outweigh the turn performance. Of the three, the Bearcat is what I'd choose." Chris stated that he was not aware of any prop fighter that could beat the F8F in a genuine dogfight. Chris has more than two thousand hours in F-16s. He has many hours in the F6F-5, P-38J and F8F. He also flies the F-86 and MiG-15.
Milo, are there any flyable Hornets or Sea Hornets anywhere these days? It would be a shame if there are none....
Chris Fahey and son in PoF P-38J.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1277670_723509277674711_103579553_o.jpg)
Chris doing the maintenance....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/622422_10151643808598790_1664473586_o.jpg)
Chris flying the MiG....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/922536_10200271351601222_1422527051_o.jpg)
Chris flying the Sabre....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/468207_650642144953089_320055962_o.jpg)
More of Chris and his favorite past time...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/903890_10151379382887828_1449670057_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/336748_4349338741191_2102770818_o.jpg)
I like this shot...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/841324_531111686909051_1343456713_o.jpg)
Steve Hinton, John Hinton, Chris Fahey, Stewart Dawson and Kevin Eldridge
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/465066_818325417274_672004471_o.jpg)
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You know, maybe we need a 1946 arena. Think of the planes that almost made it into the fight; the F7F, F8F, AD, F4U-5, F-84, Spit Mk24, Meteor, Vampire, P-80, Fury, Sea Fury, etc., etc.
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Just make them really expensive perk rides.
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No surviving Hornets. Bits of them are around and there is a guy in England who is bit buy bit hoping to build one with as many of the surviving parts as he can get. His cockpit section is a work of art.
http://www.dhhornet50.net/
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:airplane: The German expression is how the P-38 received its nick name of "Fork Tailed Devil"!
Germans never called P-38 Der Gabelschwanz Teufel.
It was purely the invention of a single US journalist in African theather. Just colourful wartime writing that created yet another of the countless urban myths of WWII.
G
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Germans never called P-38 Der Gabelschwanz Teufel.
It was purely the invention of a single US journalist in African theather. Just colourful wartime writing that created yet another of the countless urban myths of WWII.
G
:airplane: A direct quote from Lockheed-Martin web site on the history of the P-38 in North Africa: Within six months, as the P-38 showed its versatility in North Africa, a lone hysterical German pilot surrendered to soldiers at an Allied camp near Tunisia, pointing up to the sky and repeating one phrase—“der Gableschwanz Teufl”—over and over. I believe in German, that means "fork tailed devil"! I could be wrong as I do not speak German, but serveral sites on line which go into the history of the 38, all point to the Germans in North Africa as the ones who first coined the phase.
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:airplane: A direct quote from Lockheed-Martin web site on the history of the P-38 in North Africa: Within six months, as the P-38 showed its versatility in North Africa, a lone hysterical German pilot surrendered to soldiers at an Allied camp near Tunisia, pointing up to the sky and repeating one phrase—“der Gableschwanz Teufl”—over and over. I believe in German, that means "fork tailed devil"! I could be wrong as I do not speak German, but serveral sites on line which go into the history of the 38, all point to the Germans in North Africa as the ones who first coined the phase.
As noted before earlier in this thread, it was nothing more than a piece of creative writing by a wartime journalist and Lockheed seized upon it for publicity. It's not the only case, the nicknames for other fighters that were attributed by the enemy were nothing more than creative writing by wartime journalists. Another example was the Corsair, that was supposedly nicknamed "Whistling Death" by the Japanese, yet upon further investigation, there is not one single record of any Japanese referring to the Corsair as such. It was later found out that a US wartime journalist is the one that penned it for some magazine article and it was only after that article was published that you can find any reference to the Corsair being nicknamed Whistling Death by the Japanese and only in Allied publications. Call it Allied wartime propaganda, that's all it was.
ack-ack