Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Lusche on October 16, 2013, 10:41:11 PM
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Got a question for you guys.
Recently I came across formations of B-17, which very effectively used shallow high speed dives as a defence. And when I say 'high speed', I really mean it - in three cases I was barely able to catch them in a Komet while running into serious compression problems.
Checking the films I found them flying at speeds over 450mph and up to 503 mph TAS at 23-24k in one case (while being fully able to retain the drones, they just started to warp around).
Anybody knows if that would be possible in real life?
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Got a question for you guys.
Recently I came across formations of B-17, which very effectively used shallow high speed dives as a defence. And when I say 'high speed', I really mean it - in three cases I was barely able to catch them in a Komet while running into serious compression problems.
Checking the films I found them flying at speeds over 450mph and up to 503 mph TAS at 23-24k in one case (while being fully able to retain the drones, they just started to warp around).
Anybody knows if that would be possible in real life?
Not that it makes a difference bombs on or bombs out?
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Not that it makes a difference bombs on or bombs out?
Bombs on.
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When I was 10 or 12 I had a book on the b- 17 that had a sort of flight manual reprint. It said something like don't exceed 220 mph in a dive, but that's probably my bad memory, I remember thinking it was awful slow so I doubt it was much above 300 if that. That said I googled it and one of the first citations http://aafo.com/library/history/B-17/b17part3.htm (http://aafo.com/library/history/B-17/b17part3.htm) make reference to diving to 450 to put out fires.
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Bombs on.
The answer is no.
Granted this manual is for the F model.
I don't think they made that much of a change that the G model could do what AHII B-17s are capable of.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/173467808/Boeing-B-17-Flying-Fortress-Pilots-Manual
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Boeing%20B17/b17doanddont_zpsb7d57082.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Boeing%20B17/b17doanddont_zpsb7d57082.jpg.html)
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Granted this manual is for the F model.
Same thing for the G model.
No.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/69325227/1943-AN-01-20EF-1-Pilot-s-Flight-Operating-Instructions-for-Army-Models-B-17F-and-G-British-Model-Fortress-II
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Manual says 270 is max dive speed. 270 IAS is around 400 TAS at 23K.
I'm guessing max dive limits allowed for turbulence and higher speeds are possible.
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Last time I had a B-17 that fast, I was missing practically everything. :noid
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Manual says 270 is max dive speed. 270 IAS is around 400 TAS at 23K.
I'm guessing max dive limits allowed for turbulence and higher speeds are possible.
As much as Lusche has on film?
"450mph and up to 503 mph TAS at 23-24k"
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(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/b-17max_zps8983fc83.jpg)
The drones couldn't totally stay with him and got some vertical seperation at this point, but caught up again quickly when he slowed down to 450mph TAS.
At all encounters, they were warping quite a bit, which made getting close to have a shot very dangerous. Especially when the 17s started to do some wild maneouvers (still at very high speeds). Very high risks of collisions there...
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I Like the "don't dive in excess of 270mph"....that's like the standard level drop speed in aces high :confused:
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I Like the "don't dive in excess of 270mph"....that's like the standard level drop speed in aces high :confused:
Lol, no it isn't. That's IAS, which is is about 400mph TAS at 24k. Usual bombing speed at that alt for our B-17 is between 250 and 270 mph TAS -> 170-185 mph IAS
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I Like the "don't dive in excess of 270mph"....that's like the standard level drop speed in aces high :confused:
I like how it talks about glide angles & how & what will clear the bomb bay doors.
Also maximum air speed & that power must be off & wind milling propellers at 40,000 lbs. :aok
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Boeing%20B17/b17sdoanddonta_zps0370b0a8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Boeing%20B17/b17sdoanddonta_zps0370b0a8.jpg.html)
Would like to see some films on dive bombing to see what is in spec & what is not. :D
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Sorry minor hijac. :P
While on the subject of bombers :headscratch: lets have a look at the Lancaster III shall we.
Bomb clearance angle 30 deg in a dive.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/42679113/1945-Pilot-s-and-Flight-Engineer-s-Notes-Lancaster-Mark-I-Mark-VII-Mark-III-Mark-X
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Avro%20Lancaster/16-2ff6d436b5_zpsc8de7b95.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Avro%20Lancaster/16-2ff6d436b5_zpsc8de7b95.jpg.html)
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The answer is no.
Granted this manual is for the F model.
I don't think they made that much of a change that the G model could do what AHII B-17s are capable of.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/173467808/Boeing-B-17-Flying-Fortress-Pilots-Manual
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Boeing%20B17/b17doanddont_zpsb7d57082.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Boeing%20B17/b17doanddont_zpsb7d57082.jpg.html)
Oooh it says DON'T spin.
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Also maximum air speed & that power must be off & wind milling propellers at 40,000 lbs.
That is not what it says. To achieve the specified glide angle at stated speed power must be at idle. You can use power but at the stated speed the angle will be shallower.
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I can't imagine ANY of the bombers in AH, with exception to the Ar234, being able to withstand speeds that fast regardless of being loaded with ord and fuel or not.
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A bit surreal but hey, Spielberg invented cartoon landing gear for a real B-17.
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I can't imagine ANY of the bombers in AH, with exception to the Ar234, being able to withstand speeds that fast regardless of being loaded with ord and fuel or not.
Mossie XVI.
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An important question is how much faster that B17 could go than those measly 503mph :cool:
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Mossie XVI.
*sigh* There has always got to be one. :) ok ok ok.... how about "heavy bombers" not being able to withstand speeds that high. Not the B29, Lancaster, B17, B24, Ju88, etc.
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*sigh* There has always got to be one. :) ok ok ok.... how about "heavy bombers" not being able to withstand speeds that high. Not the B29, Lancaster, B17, B24, Ju88, etc.
You mentioned the Ar234. That made your comment fair game. :p
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You mentioned the Ar234. That made your comment fair game. :p
:airplane: For what ever it is worth in this discussion, I have seen the B-29C, (real life), at 365IAS, many, many times when decending. I was also told that we may increase the VNE speed, 5% for each 10,000 foot of altitude!
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An important question is how much faster that B17 could go than those measly 503mph :cool:
Tests are still running, but I just got the B-17 up to 400mph indicated / 525 mph true airspeed at ~17k without breaking up and without losing formation!
No wonder I could'nt really catch up at one time in a severely compressing Me 163 :lol
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Tests are still running, but I just got the B-17 up to 400mph indicated / 525 mph true airspeed at ~17k without breaking up and without losing formation!
No wonder I could'nt really catch up at one time in a severely compressing Me 163 :lol
Perk the B-17. :D
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the FW190A8 compress at about 605 mph :rock
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What happens to the waist gunners in such a dive? Aren't they just standing there in front of a big open window?
I love trying to dogfight in the b26 but I can't help thinking about those gunners flying around in the back as I do all those ACM...
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I love trying to dogfight in the b26 but I can't help thinking about those gunners flying around in the back as I do all those ACM...
If they were still able to walk they'd probably kick your butt when you landed. I've been in the back of a B-17 doing wingovers, certainly throws you around.
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What happens to the waist gunners in such a dive? Aren't they just standing there in front of a big open window?
I love trying to dogfight in the b26 but I can't help thinking about those gunners flying around in the back as I do all those ACM...
Not all B-17s had open waist gunner positions.
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some bombers really needs to be reviewed in the scope of flying in formation at high speed and maneuvering.
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Tests are still running, but I just got the B-17 up to 400mph indicated / 525 mph true airspeed at ~17k without breaking up and without losing formation!
No wonder I could'nt really catch up at one time in a severely compressing Me 163 :lol
Did you give a try to the lancasters? I bet they'go even faster
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some bombers really needs to be reviewed in the scope of flying in formation at high speed and maneuvering.
:airplane: I would guess that the AH programmer who model the 17's tried to model the drones to react just like the mother ship. That is what they would have done in real life. The one thing that troubles me about these so called hvy bombers in this game is this: in a 60 degree bank, you are pulling 2 G's and I read somewhere, am not sure about this, but the 17 was only stressed for 3.6 degrees. That tells me that just a little more g loading on the wing and the main spar would fail and down they would come. No question that the 17 was one tough bird, all you have to do is look at some of the pic's of damage after missions during the war. I would also suspect that all of the manufacturers spec's were probably exceeded during combat quite often, with guys trying to stay alive.
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*sigh* There has always got to be one. :) ok ok ok.... how about "heavy bombers" not being able to withstand speeds that high. Not the B29, Lancaster, B17, B24, Ju88, etc.
Ju 88 was designed for dive-bombing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6pmAVrbNjyE#t=93
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At least one B-17 did a loop when climbing and flew through the prop-wash of another bomber. It popped some rivets in the fuselage near the tail and the plane ended up coming out of the dive after exceeding 350mph. I can't remember which book I read this in. I'll see if I can find the anecdote on the net.
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At least one B-17 did a loop when climbing and flew through the prop-wash of another bomber. It popped some rivets in the fuselage near the tail and the plane ended up coming out of the dive after exceeding 350mph. I can't remember which book I read this in. I'll see if I can find the anecdote on the net.
:airplane: Talking about rivets, how much faster would the ole 17 cruise at, if it had flush rivets instead of the round headed raised ones?
(http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p684/earl1937/rivetID2_zps112bdc25.jpg)
I know that they did not have the technology methods for counter sunk rivets back in the day, but I think the B-29 was first production aircraft to use "counter" sunk rivets through out the aircraft. Not positive about that, but that is what I had heard at one time.
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What kind of rivets are used here?
(http://www.eduard.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Eduard-On-Spitfire-Research-Trip-In-Canada_02.jpg)
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What kind of rivets are used here?
(http://www.eduard.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Eduard-On-Spitfire-Research-Trip-In-Canada_02.jpg)
:airplane: I think what you are looking at are called "Zeus" fasteners, which the British used on most all there aircraft which had metal panels and hatches. The Spits with wooden wings, had a fabric material I think, not sure if they ever made one with all metal wings!
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Spitfires were all-metal construction. No wood. You must be thinking of the Hurricane.
I'm asking about the rivets used on the wing itself, not the hatches.
Here's a closeup of the underside of the aileron:
(http://spitfiresite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DSC06778.jpg)
What kind of rivets are those? They seem very flush with the metal panels.
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Look like pop rivets.
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Howard Hughes' H-1 had flush rivets in 1935.
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Howard Hughes' H-1 had flush rivets in 1935.
:airplane: True, but was not a mass produced aircraft!
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The answer is no.
Granted this manual is for the F model.
I don't think they made that much of a change that the G model could do what AHII B-17s are capable of.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/173467808/Boeing-B-17-Flying-Fortress-Pilots-Manual
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Boeing%20B17/b17doanddont_zpsb7d57082.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Boeing%20B17/b17doanddont_zpsb7d57082.jpg.html)
New Background, In case of drunk and forgets how to fly a 17
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some bombers really needs to be reviewed in the scope of flying in formation at high speed and maneuvering.
I'm a HUGE proponent of tightening the leash on drones, and further restricting the speed limit before drones start to pop.
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Got a question for you guys.
Recently I came across formations of B-17, which very effectively used shallow high speed dives as a defence. And when I say 'high speed', I really mean it - in three cases I was barely able to catch them in a Komet while running into serious compression problems.
Checking the films I found them flying at speeds over 450mph and up to 503 mph TAS at 23-24k in one case (while being fully able to retain the drones, they just started to warp around).
Anybody knows if that would be possible in real life?
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2011/02/oreillycantexplain1.jpg)
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I'm a HUGE proponent of tightening the leash on drones, and further restricting the speed limit before drones start to pop.
I would second that. :aok
Yes that is the lead Boston 4.5k away from the drones.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/bostondronespread_zps754c733e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/bostondronespread_zps754c733e.jpg.html)
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some bombers really needs to be reviewed in the scope of flying in formation at high speed and maneuvering.
Why, they are easy kills already. Give them a chance so when the splode they feel like actually were able to defend themselves.
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You haven't met 99000 I recon, coming in from behind his set of b17s, at 1.5k out your plane already lost parts ,and have departed controlled flight before reaching 1.0k.
No heavy bomber could ever do raids unescorted during ww2 without suffer heavy losses, except for some isolated fights.
Also HTC say they are trying to be as close as real life as possible in FM's, and flying @ 525mph diving in a formation and still be able to shoot at 1.5k is not one of them.
Only some can catch a b17 doing that, and they have to close in painfully slow doing it, giving the gunners almost 800 yards in the bomber to shoot at the fighter before it can effectively shoot back.
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You haven't met 99000 I recon, coming in from behind his set of b17s, at 1.5k out your plane already lost parts ,and have departed controlled flight before reaching 1.0k.
You see, I don't do that. There is a reason it's called "dead six"
I have gotten 2 of 3 of 99900's 17's and lived to land, but it requires correct tactics. He's good (one of the best really), but not unbeatable. Unless I get careless bombers are scalps.
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You see, I don't do that. There is a reason it's called "dead six"
I have gotten 2 of 3 of 99900's 17's and lived to land, but it requires correct tactics. He's good (one of the best really), but not unbeatable. Unless I get careless bombers are scalps.
You misunderstand me, If you meet a B17 doing a dive at 400 mph+ dive tactic you are not going to perform a classic high-12 attack or anything fancy, that's what I mean.
I've met mr 99000 in a classic high-12 attack, I get one plane but paid with a smoked engine.
At 1k out if pilot is a good shot, and you are in a normal fighter coming in from 11-1 o'clock, you have the engine hurt or worse, I can name at least 3 guys that do that regularly in b17's, not any other plane though.
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In scenarios, if bombers are unescorted and get attacked by any significant force of fighters, they get mauled.
Not every bomber gunner is 999000, and not every attacking fighter pilot is Thrila, so you can't base analyses on assuming everyone is like that. If you go by what happens in scenarios, fights tend to turn out a lot more like what historical accounts are like.
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in the scenarios I've been flying the 110g2, its nerve-breakingly slow to catch the b17s flying @ 30k, which it was not IRL, they where flying less than 200mph in formation, in AH about 50% faster.
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You haven't met 99000 I recon, coming in from behind his set of b17s, at 1.5k out your plane already lost parts ,and have departed controlled flight before reaching 1.0k.
No heavy bomber could ever do raids unescorted during ww2 without suffer heavy losses, except for some isolated fights.
Also HTC say they are trying to be as close as real life as possible in FM's, and flying @ 525mph diving in a formation and still be able to shoot at 1.5k is not one of them.
Only some can catch a b17 doing that, and they have to close in painfully slow doing it, giving the gunners almost 800 yards in the bomber to shoot at the fighter before it can effectively shoot back.
:airplane: Dead six my friend. Just as dangerous as the purple heart corner. Depending on your leverage with the tail, you've constantly got at least 4 guns on you. There's only a small zone where the 17 can only shoot it's tail gun into the enemy behind it.
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I've heard people say that B-17's flew at about 180 mph indicated. In scenarios, they fly at about 200 mph indicated (or less for groups where the GL throttles down a bit to hold better formation). That's not a huge difference, especially considering that fighters cruise around in AH at full power, which they didn't typically do in real life. In scenarios, B-17 max alts are typically 24-25k.
Here's a shot from my cockpit in Der Grosse Schlag.
(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/200710_derGrosseSchlag/pics/frame3/Image-0074.jpg)
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I've heard people say that B-17's flew at about 180 mph indicated. In scenarios, they fly at about 200 mph indicated (or less for groups where the GL throttles down a bit to hold better formation). That's not a huge difference, especially considering that fighters cruise around in AH at full power, which they didn't typically do in real life. In scenarios, B-17 max alts are typically 24-25k.
Here's a shot from my cockpit in Der Grosse Schlag.
(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/200710_derGrosseSchlag/pics/frame3/Image-0074.jpg)
:airplane: Good post! What I do is fly my 17s at 35 inches MP, that way if someone is more than 1.0K away, they can catch up much easier. I also never turn more than a 30 degree change in direction at any one time and I do that at a "standard rate" of 3 degrees per second, which makes it much easier for the bombers to stay in formation. When turning the bombers on the inside can reduce power slightly and the ones on the outside of the turn can add power and that way, we can keep the formation intact. 35" and full increase RPM gives us about 190 IAS.
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I'm with you on that, Earl. In the recent Battle of Britain 2013 scenario, I had our He 111's at 1.25 ATA, well off the max throttle setting of 1.35 ATA, in order to maintain formation integrity.
(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201309_BattleOfBritain2013/pics/frame4/008-forward-SNAG-0013.jpg)