B-17 VNE - RL vs AH?

[Lusche]

Got a question for you guys.

Recently I came across formations of B-17, which very effectively used shallow high speed dives as a defence. And when I say 'high speed', I really mean it - in three cases I was barely able to catch them in a Komet while running into serious compression problems.
Checking the films I found them flying at speeds over 450mph and up to 503 mph TAS at 23-24k in one case (while being fully able to retain the drones, they just started to warp around).

Anybody knows if that would be possible in real life?

[lyric1]

Got a question for you guys.

Recently I came across formations of B-17, which very effectively used shallow high speed dives as a defence. And when I say 'high speed', I really mean it - in three cases I was barely able to catch them in a Komet while running into serious compression problems.
Checking the films I found them flying at speeds over 450mph and up to 503 mph TAS at 23-24k in one case (while being fully able to retain the drones, they just started to warp around).

Anybody knows if that would be possible in real life?

Not that it makes a difference bombs on or bombs out?

[Lusche]

Not that it makes a difference bombs on or bombs out?

Bombs on.

[pembquist]

When I was 10 or 12 I had a book on the b- 17 that had a sort of flight manual reprint. It said something like don't exceed 220 mph in a dive, but that's probably my bad memory, I remember thinking it was awful slow so I doubt it was much above 300 if that. That said I googled it and one of the first citations http://aafo.com/library/history/B-17/b17part3.htm  make reference to diving to 450 to put out fires.

[lyric1]

Bombs on.

The answer is no.
Granted this manual is for the F model.
I don't think they made that much of a change that the G model could do what AHII B-17s are capable of.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/173467808/Boeing-B-17-Flying-Fortress-Pilots-Manual

[lyric1]

Granted this manual is for the F model.

Same thing for the G model.
No.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/69325227/1943-AN-01-20EF-1-Pilot-s-Flight-Operating-Instructions-for-Army-Models-B-17F-and-G-British-Model-Fortress-II

[FLS]

Manual says 270 is max dive speed.  270 IAS is around 400 TAS at 23K.
I'm guessing max dive limits allowed for turbulence  and higher speeds are possible.  

[Volron]

Last time I had a B-17 that fast, I was missing practically everything.

[lyric1]

Manual says 270 is max dive speed.  270 IAS is around 400 TAS at 23K.
I'm guessing max dive limits allowed for turbulence  and higher speeds are possible.  

As much as Lusche has on film?
"450mph and up to 503 mph TAS at 23-24k"

[Lusche]

The drones couldn't totally stay with him and got some vertical seperation at this point, but caught up again quickly when he slowed down to 450mph TAS.
At all encounters, they were warping quite a bit, which made getting close to have a shot very dangerous. Especially when the 17s started to do some wild maneouvers (still at very high speeds). Very high risks of collisions there...

[SirNuke]

I Like the "don't dive in excess of 270mph"....that's like the standard level drop speed in aces high 

[Lusche]

I Like the "don't dive in excess of 270mph"....that's like the standard level drop speed in aces high 

Lol, no it isn't. That's IAS, which is is about 400mph TAS at 24k. Usual bombing speed at that alt for our B-17 is between 250  and 270 mph TAS ->  170-185 mph IAS

[lyric1]

I Like the "don't dive in excess of 270mph"....that's like the standard level drop speed in aces high 

I like how it talks about glide angles & how & what will clear the bomb bay doors.
Also maximum air speed & that power must be off & wind milling propellers at 40,000 lbs. 



Would like to see some films on dive bombing to see what is in spec & what is not. 

[lyric1]

Sorry minor hijac.

While on the subject of bombers lets have a look at the Lancaster III shall we.
Bomb clearance angle 30 deg in a dive.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/42679113/1945-Pilot-s-and-Flight-Engineer-s-Notes-Lancaster-Mark-I-Mark-VII-Mark-III-Mark-X

[FLOOB]

The answer is no.
Granted this manual is for the F model.
I don't think they made that much of a change that the G model could do what AHII B-17s are capable of.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/173467808/Boeing-B-17-Flying-Fortress-Pilots-Manual

Oooh it says DON'T spin.