Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on October 25, 2013, 12:37:12 AM
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Here are some more pointers from our time in the TA.
Lag Pursuit
At point #1 I'm coming through and pulling out of a dive as you pass below me. You had a 50 MPH advantage on me and you use that speed to start going into the vertical. Rather than try and pull a tighter turn to try and get behind you and follow you with a pure or lead pursuit, I loosen my turn and enter a lag pursuit in order to gain a little E and keep behind you. At point #2 as you reach the top of your loop I am continuing my lag pursuit in a gentle climb behind you. I've now gained up to 210 MPH while you're looping over the top at 100 MPH. At point #3 you are coming down from your loop at 130 MPH while I continue my lag pursuit climb up over the top of you at 120 MPH. I did not enter a pure or lead pursuit at any point because I didn't want to waste any E after seeing the fight was going vertical, and I didn't want you coming over the top of your loop and getting a shot on me as I reach stall speeds. The lag pursuit put me in a position where you are not able to get a shot as you come through your loop as you don't have enough speed to pull lead with just 500 yards of separation.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Lt24_zps60804274.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Lt24_zps60804274.png.html)
Merge and Boelcke's Rule #6
In this merge you made the mistake of turning to the right when I was positioned off to your left. What this did was expose your 6 o'clock to me and I was able to easily turn onto your tail.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Lt3_zps8bf3e157.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Lt3_zps8bf3e157.png.html)
You could have done 1 of 2 other moves in this situation. One being to just blow right on by me and convert all of your E into altitude which forces me to use my E in a turn if I want to get on your tail...
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Lt32_zpse9080958.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Lt32_zpse9080958.png.html)
Or, you could have turned left into the attack. I would of either broke left as well into your attack, or swung out to your right and pull a right turn into you. Boelcke's rule 6 states that you must always turn into the attack and put your opponent on the defensive. This doesn't necessarily mean to turn head on with them, but that you shouldn't turn away from your opponent and give them your 6. Your job as a fighter pilot is to AVOID doing just that. The quickest way to die is to turn away from your opponent or try to run away.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Lt33_zpsd7fef106.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Lt33_zpsd7fef106.png.html)
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What to do with an E and Altitude Advantage
At point #1 you are coming down in a diving attack on me. I can see you have the altitude and E advantage, but I do however have some time to work with as you are nearly 2K away so I level off in order to gain E. At point #2 I see you are starting to position onto my 6 and are slowly gaining on me. I want to put some pressure on you and start my turn back into you now that I've gained some E. You see me turn back for you and you start to climb up and over the top of me. At point #3 you use up a bit of E rolling over and pulling into me. This is a mistake as you are giving up your altitude advantage to try for a difficult shot. I have plenty of speed to pull up into your attack and deny you the shot and now you no longer have the altitude advantage.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Lt14_zps22595e63.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Lt14_zps22595e63.png.html)
What you should have done is use your speed to gain an even bigger altitude advantage and force me to use my E in a turn to try and climb to you. I however have less E than you and less altitude and trying to climb with you will just result in me being roped and killed as I stall. If I don't follow you up then you can just convert some of that altitude back into speed and dive on my 6 again.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Lt15_zps75cbef82.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Lt15_zps75cbef82.png.html)
How not to get shot when you overshoot
In this next picture you tried to follow me through a turn and get a shot but I denied you the shot and forced an overshoot. I then reversed my turn into you and got a perfect shot opportunity on you. When you overshoot you have to be aware of which way your opponents nose is pointed and which way you are going. In the image you saw my nose go from pointed away from you to towards you as I reversed my turn for a shot. You continued your path and flew right into my guns. The green lines represent where I am able to get my guns to. You want to fly to the areas where I can not get guns to. You could have gone with option 1: see that overshoot coming, break off your turn, go vertical, and make your opponent bleed E in a larger turn when he reverses his turn. Or, you could have gone with option 2: Know your opponent will reverse his turn, tighten your turn into him as he does, position yourself on the other side of him, climb away, and watch as your opponent uses more E trying to reverse a 2nd time for a shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Ltmissesandovershoothownottodie2_zps8d1318e6.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Ltmissesandovershoothownottodie2_zps8d1318e6.png.html)
In this next example I am the attacker and you are the defender. My initial attack is denied by your well timed turn. As I overshoot at point #1 I notice you loosen your turn. I know you're saving E and waiting for me to continue my turn into you so you can get a shot, so I deny you that shot by simply loosening my turn and staying off to your side. At point #2 you finally reverse your turn into me for a shot attempt. I see this and make my move and turn into you to deny you the shot. In the little window showing your cockpit view we can see I am successful and you do not have a shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/MeavoidingLt12_zps0ecbdc08.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/MeavoidingLt12_zps0ecbdc08.png.html)
Rolling Scissor: What do I do when my enemy is going up and I'm going down?
The one thing you seemed to struggle with the most was when the fight turned into a rolling scissors match. In a rolling scissors your goal is not to line up a shot, but to fly to your opponents six o'clock. In this first image I am climbing while you are diving. I can see the exact path you are going to take and I roll my plane over the top and outside your turn to try and get on your six. As I read a trainer explaining the rolling scissors in another thread, you want to put your lift vector behind your opponent to get behind them. (Lift vector might be the wrong term, I'm not a real pilot :) )
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LtRS12_zps7737f91f.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LtRS12_zps7737f91f.png.html)
This second image we can see you are turning trying to get a shot on me. This puts your lift vector in front of me and causes the overshoot. What you want to do is turn in below me and put your lift vector behind me in an attempt to get on my 6.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LtRS22_zpsed2b07dd.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LtRS22_zpsed2b07dd.png.html)
We can see in this last image that you have overshot and my roll over the top, positioning my lift vector behind you, has given me the shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LtRS3_zps6763c612.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LtRS3_zps6763c612.png.html)
In this side shot I've marked the same amount of flight path we both flew through the rolling scissors. Mine is a lot shorter than yours because of my steeper climb which was a result of me positioning my lift vector behind you. I travel foward a lot slower than you and force the overshoot. As the saying goes: "The shortest distance between two points is a straight line." You're path was straighter than mine so you reached the next point before me.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LtRS42_zps586c68de.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LtRS42_zps586c68de.png.html)
Links for anyone interested. Maybe you trainers and experts can tell me if I did good? :uhoh
http://www.mediafire.com/download/kowhhris6wbcny6/Lt.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6lox78qyao5ttjj/Lt2.ahf
Random Latrobe Thought
When you're dogfighting, you're not flying your plane because you can. You are flying your plane in response to whatever move your opponent makes. If someone is diving on me from 5 o'clock high, I'm not making a right turn because I think it looks pretty. I'm making a right turn because someone is diving on me from the right! And, that pilot diving on me isn't pulling back on his stick to climb because he likes altitude. He's pulling back and climbing because I've turned into him and foiled his shot. So in a weird way you are flying both your plane and your opponents plane. You're 800 off his 6 and you want him to break right? Position yourself off to his right and he'll break that way (if he's smart that is). Boelcke's rule #6 says to break into the attack and don't expose your six, so he will break right or he will expose his 6 to you. It's kind of how I force a lot of people to auger when I'm fighting on the deck. They're looking for an opening to dive on me, so I give them the shot they want... only I positioned myself beforehand so they have to make a steep approach to me. Then when I foil their attack at the last moment with a BRD they are going too steep and too fast to pull out of the dive and smack into the ground. :D
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That was very nice and quite a lot of effort, Latrobe. Thanks to you, and to LtCondor, from all of us.
- oldman
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Thanks a lot for the lessons. It has gave me a lot work on to be successful. Thanks a lot for the time and screenshots.
Wishing you to be on many sixes. :salute :salute :salute
LtCondor
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I see school is in session. :aok
Very well done sirs!!! :salute
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Latrobe you might find it simpler to explain dogfighting in terms of pursuit curves and turn circles. The trails on AH film make the circles clear even to new players. The turn circle in this case is defined as the minimum radius turn the bandit can make at that point in time. If you fly into that turn circle then the bandit cannot shoot you. To shoot at the bandit you use lead pursuit. To get on the bandits flight path you use lag pursuit. Depending on the situation you'll either point your aircraft nose or point your lift vector. Lift vector can be imagined as a line straight up from the cockpit, your "up" view, and is roughly the direction that lift is applied to the aircraft. Using a few general principles is easier to understand and easier to apply to different situations. For example you'll notice that the rolling scissors is basically both aircraft turning into each others turn circle.
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Latrobe you might find it simpler to explain dogfighting in terms of pursuit curves and turn circles. The trails on AH film make the circles clear even to new players. The turn circle in this case is defined as the minimum radius turn the bandit can make at that point in time. If you fly into that turn circle then the bandit cannot shoot you. To shoot at the bandit you use lead pursuit. To get on the bandits flight path you use lag pursuit. Depending on the situation you'll either point your aircraft nose or point your lift vector. Lift vector can be imagined as a line straight up from the cockpit, your "up" view, and is roughly the direction that lift is applied to the aircraft. Using a few general principles is easier to understand and easier to apply to different situations. For example you'll notice that the rolling scissors is basically both aircraft turning into each others turn circle.
I'm not that smart. I never had a single lesson from a trainer or real pilot and the only reading I ever did was on the basics (Split-s, Yo-Yo's, Pursuit's, etc). Everything else I learned from trial and error so I don't know any of the proper terms or when and how to use them. :)
A good example of my limited knowledge of combat terms is a while back I just knew that if I pulled my plane this way then I can get behind my opponent. I had no idea it was called a rolling scissors or why it worked. :lol
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In this case it's not so much a matter of terminology. It's an efficient way of thinking about and analyzing fights. Players turn the wrong way because they don't know where they should be going. Visualizing the bandit's turn circle, both current and potential, shows you your options.
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Good stuff Latrobe, thanks for the time you and ltcondor put into this. :salute :cheers:
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Thanks for all the time you put into this and ur films. Always helpful.
:salute
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Latrobe you might find it simpler to explain dogfighting in terms of pursuit curves and turn circles. The trails on AH film make the circles clear even to new players. The turn circle in this case is defined as the minimum radius turn the bandit can make at that point in time. If you fly into that turn circle then the bandit cannot shoot you. To shoot at the bandit you use lead pursuit. To get on the bandits flight path you use lag pursuit. Depending on the situation you'll either point your aircraft nose or point your lift vector. Lift vector can be imagined as a line straight up from the cockpit, your "up" view, and is roughly the direction that lift is applied to the aircraft. Using a few general principles is easier to understand and easier to apply to different situations. For example you'll notice that the rolling scissors is basically both aircraft turning into each others turn circle.
I've been playing these games a long time. I am no where as good as I should be with all the practice I have. However, from my point of view what Latrobe said and how he says it makes far more sense than what you have said above. What you posted just makes my head hurt :(
Perhaps you could take the pictures he used in his explanations and edit them to show what the heck.... umm.....what circles and lift vectors your talking about. That way us guys in the shallow end of the pool may learn what you guys in the deep end take for granted.
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I've been playing these games a long time. I am no where as good as I should be with all the practice I have. However, from my point of view what Latrobe said and how he says it makes far more sense than what you have said above. What you posted just makes my head hurt :(
Perhaps you could take the pictures he used in his explanations and edit them to show what the heck.... umm.....what circles and lift vectors your talking about. That way us guys in the shallow end of the pool may learn what you guys in the deep end take for granted.
It's easy to understand, you probably just aren't used to the terms. When Latrobe says to turn into the bandit's turn he's telling you to fly into the bandit's turn circle. Every time you aren't flying straight your flight path is curved and that curve is a section of a circle. The circle we're concerned with is the circle implied by the smallest radius turn the bandit can make. When you are inside that circle you can't get shot because the bandit can't pull more lead, he's already maxed his turn and pulling harder will stall him. You've seen this a thousand times, you just think of it in different terms. Turn circles and pursuit curves are the keys to understanding dogfighting.
I don't know if you've trained with anyone but I'm sure you realize that getting lots of practice is more productive after training than before training.
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It's easy to understand, you probably just aren't used to the terms. When Latrobe says to turn into the bandit's turn he's telling you to fly into the bandit's turn circle. Every time you aren't flying straight your flight path is curved and that curve is a section of a circle. The circle we're concerned with is the circle implied by the smallest radius turn the bandit can make. When you are inside that circle you can't get shot because the bandit can't pull more lead, he's already maxed his turn and pulling harder will stall him. You've seen this a thousand times, you just think of it in different terms. Turn circles and pursuit curves are the keys to understanding dogfighting.
I don't know if you've trained with anyone but I'm sure you realize that getting lots of practice is more productive after training than before training.
I've trained with a number of people on a number of things. The point here is the way Latrobe explained things. To us guys who don't "do this for a living" what he says make sense, but what you say doesn't.... well to me anyway.
He used simple english, where you seem to be using Klingon :D That's why I thought if you took the time to add the "circles" and vectors" to his pictures it could help a lot more people understand what your saying and so be able to use those "keys to understanding dogfighting"
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It's easy to understand, you probably just aren't used to the terms. When Latrobe says to turn into the bandit's turn he's telling you to fly into the bandit's turn circle. Every time you aren't flying straight your flight path is curved and that curve is a section of a circle. The circle we're concerned with is the circle implied by the smallest radius turn the bandit can make. When you are inside that circle you can't get shot because the bandit can't pull more lead, he's already maxed his turn and pulling harder will stall him. You've seen this a thousand times, you just think of it in different terms. Turn circles and pursuit curves are the keys to understanding dogfighting.
I don't know if you've trained with anyone but I'm sure you realize that getting lots of practice is more productive after training than before training.
I understand what you're saying but there's a saying... A picture's worth a thousand words. Note the number of positive responses to Latrobes pictures vs your words.
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I've trained with a number of people on a number of things. The point here is the way Latrobe explained things. To us guys who don't "do this for a living" what he says make sense, but what you say doesn't.... well to me anyway.
He used simple english, where you seem to be using Klingon :D That's why I thought if you took the time to add the "circles" and vectors" to his pictures it could help a lot more people understand what your saying and so be able to use those "keys to understanding dogfighting"
Which word don't you understand? You know what a circle is? Lift vector was explained as your "up" view. What are you confused about?
Take any of your dogfight films and turn trails on, watch from the fixed view, zoomed out enough to see the geometry of the fight. You will see that you can only get shot outside of the bandit's turn circle and you can only shoot the bandit when he's outside of your turn circle. This tells you where you need to fly to avoid getting shot. It's really that simple.
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Which word don't you understand? You know what a circle is? Lift vector was explained as your "up" view. What are you confused about?
Take any of your dogfight films and turn trails on, watch from the fixed view, zoomed out enough to see the geometry of the fight. You will see that you can only get shot outside of the bandit's turn circle and you can only shoot the bandit when he's outside of your turn circle. This tells you where you need to fly to avoid getting shot. It's really that simple.
What is not understandable is how it all comes together. Is the circle and lift vector pictured as a thumb tack with the point of the tack always pointing up through the center of your canopy? Or do the circles move and change as your path changes? With the film viewer and trails, we are seeing the flight in 3 dimensions and so only "see" a circle when a person pulls a flat turn ( more often than not a BIG no-no). How do the "circles" relate to the twisting and spiraling trails we see in the film viewer?
Latrobe's explanation was more along the lines of "if you do this, a good opponent will do this and your in the tower, other options that may save you are option A and option B and this is why" The "why" is explained as "you will save E here" or "he will burn a lot more E here" or "he can't pull for a shot because ..." All very easy to understand.
I would love to understand more about circles and such but nobody has be able to explain it so an idiot like me could grasp it. I was hoping you could add the circles and so make it easier to understand.
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Which word don't you understand? You know what a circle is? Lift vector was explained as your "up" view. What are you confused about?
Take any of your dogfight films and turn trails on, watch from the fixed view, zoomed out enough to see the geometry of the fight. You will see that you can only get shot outside of the bandit's turn circle and you can only shoot the bandit when he's outside of your turn circle. This tells you where you need to fly to avoid getting shot. It's really that simple.
As a trainer don't you think it might be more constructive to find a better way to get through to a prospective student than to berate him and be combative? In this case the student is even telling you his preferred method of learning.
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What is not understandable is how it all comes together. Is the circle and lift vector pictured as a thumb tack with the point of the tack always pointing up through the center of your canopy? Or do the circles move and change as your path changes? With the film viewer and trails, we are seeing the flight in 3 dimensions and so only "see" a circle when a person pulls a flat turn ( more often than not a BIG no-no). How do the "circles" relate to the twisting and spiraling trails we see in the film viewer?
Latrobe's explanation was more along the lines of "if you do this, a good opponent will do this and your in the tower, other options that may save you are option A and option B and this is why" The "why" is explained as "you will save E here" or "he will burn a lot more E here" or "he can't pull for a shot because ..." All very easy to understand.
I would love to understand more about circles and such but nobody has be able to explain it so an idiot like me could grasp it. I was hoping you could add the circles and so make it easier to understand.
As you correctly point out, the circle changes position as you roll your lift vector. The circle is actually a 3D bubble of potential turns. We use the 2D circle for simplicity by only considering the slice of the bubble defined by the lift vector. A good way to understand it is to watch your fight films with trails on. This way you teach yourself to analyze fights. Once you understand ACM you can drive the fight instead of reacting to it. Learning the basics is much less work then learning the specifics of every possible situation and gives you the same result or better. Watch some films with trails on, look for the turn circles, then get back to me with questions.
As a trainer don't you think it might be more constructive to find a better way to get through to a prospective student than to berate him and be combative? In this case the student is even telling you his preferred method of learning.
As a trainer I find it best to teach the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM. If a student prefers to learn a different way they have that choice.
In Klingon I wasn't combative, I was exceptionally nice. :D
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As you correctly point out, the circle changes position as you roll your lift vector. The circle is actually a 3D bubble of potential turns. We use the 2D circle for simplicity by only considering the slice of the bubble defined by the lift vector. A good way to understand it is to watch your fight films with trails on. This way you teach yourself to analyze fights. Once you understand ACM you can drive the fight instead of reacting to it. Learning the basics is much less work then learning the specifics of every possible situation and gives you the same result or better. Watch some films with trails on, look for the turn circles, then get back to me with questions.
As a trainer I find it best to teach the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM. If a student prefers to learn a different way they have that choice.
In Klingon I wasn't combative, I was exceptionally nice. :D
LOL!!! I have been playing this game for over 11 years and have watched hundreds of thousands of films (I film each fight, and spend sunday morning going through the fights I had the previous week). I understand BFM and ACM's. I understand as Morph is so fond of saying, "pushing your opponent forward through your "up", "up forward","forward" view which translates to "point your lift vector behind your opponent". I have also read about "circle fighting" from you and a number of other players, but have never been able to grasp what is meant by it.
Teaching "the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM" may be a good idea, only if you can make those ideas understandable. I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I really would like to understand this.
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See one, do one, teach one.
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Maybe I'll post some more pictures explaining lift vectors and the circles. I think I understand what FLS is trying to explain.
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LOL!!! I have been playing this game for over 11 years and have watched hundreds of thousands of films (I film each fight, and spend sunday morning going through the fights I had the previous week). I understand BFM and ACM's. I understand as Morph is so fond of saying, "pushing your opponent forward through your "up", "up forward","forward" view which translates to "point your lift vector behind your opponent". I have also read about "circle fighting" from you and a number of other players, but have never been able to grasp what is meant by it.
Teaching "the most efficient and effective way to understand ACM" may be a good idea, only if you can make those ideas understandable. I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I really would like to understand this.
I don't know the expression "circle fighting" but I believe all of your films illustrate turn circles. I explained what they are already. If you reread the explanation and watch your films as I suggested you may have an epiphany. If that doesn't help you might schedule some training.
The concept is pretty simple so you may just be overthinking it. I'm at work so I can't add pictures but I think, after 11years, you can figure it out if I point you in the right direction. If you fight someone in the TA and they have smoke on it can be easier to visualize the circle. The tail end of the smoke is also a useful guide for lag pursuit.
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Here's what I think FLS is trying to say.
Lift Vector
All planes create lift, that's how they're able to fly. The engine provides thrust (or forward momentum if you like). The forward momentum creates airflow over the wings. The wings are designed to provided lift and when you get enough airflow over the wings you fly! Lift vector is just a fancy way of describing this. Your plane raises up into the air, so your Lift Vector is pointed straight up above you (tilt your head back and looks straight up. That's the direction of your Lift vector.)
(Note: The other two forces at work here are Gravity and Drag, but we're explaining Lift vectors so I left them out.)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LiftVectorExplaineddone_zps63b9df05.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LiftVectorExplaineddone_zps63b9df05.png.html)
In this rolling scissors fight I am positioning my lift vector behind LtCondor's plane. I'm doing this because I want to get onto his 6 before I start lining up my shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LiftVector1done_zpsb32d2092.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LiftVector1done_zpsb32d2092.png.html)
From LtCondor's perspective we can see his lift vector is positioned in front of my plane. He's maneuvering his plane to try and get a shot on me. He won't get that shot though because I've positioned my lift vector behind him to try and get on his 6. This also puts my plane inside his turn circle. (Turn circles will be explained very soon! ;) )
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LiftVector2done_zps403470ba.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LiftVector2done_zps403470ba.png.html)
A few seconds later I win the rolling scissors and get behind LtCondor's 3-9 line and am ready to start lining up my shot. (3-9 line: Draw a line right across their plane from wingtip to wingtip, also called the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock positions hence the name 3-9 line. Everything behind that line is on their 6 or behind them. Everything in front of that line is on their 12 or in front of them.)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/LiftVector3done_zpsaed060c7.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/LiftVector3done_zpsaed060c7.png.html)
Turning Circles
Turning circles are quite literally the circle you make when you turn your plane. In this first image I am turning into LtCondor at maximum G's. LtCondor is inside my turn circle so if he were to hover right there like a helicopter then I would be physically incapable of ever shooting him because I simply can not get my guns on him. I'm already pulling maximum G's in my turn. The orange circle shows how tight I can get my turn and at no point would I be able to pull lead on LtCondor and get a shot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Circles1done_zps3a500b56.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Circles1done_zps3a500b56.png.html)
However, that is just one nano-second of a moment in the fight. There are tons of other variables are work here. LtCondor was faster than me and pulling a lead turn the whole way through my turn. He is going too fast to keep inside my turn and starts to drift outside of my turn circle. In this next image we see that he has started to cross from inside my turn circle to outside my turn circle (the orange circle). At the same time we see that I have moved from outside his turn circle to inside his turn circle (the white circle). This is also called a flight path overshoot and is the first step to forcing a 3-9 line overshoot (where he literally flies out in front of you).
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Circles2done_zpse1a66919.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Circles2done_zpse1a66919.png.html)
These circles are constantly changing at all times during a fight. Loosening or tightening a turn will create larger or smaller turn circles. The direction of your turn will obviously decide in which way your turn circle is. Most bizarre of all is these turn circles are not actually circles. They're spheres. Planes can also climb and dive as well as turn left and right. Turn circles are created whether your perform a flat turn, and immelman, or a split-s. You can combine horizontal and vertical flight to turn in any direction you want in the sphere.
To show just how drastic and sudden turn circles can change, here's an image of that same fight just 1 second later. I reverse my turn back into LtCondor. This reverses the direction of my turn circle as well. Now instead of my turn circle being back towards our previous flight paths, it is heading the other way away from our previous flight paths. Into our flight paths one second, away from them the next.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/Circles3done_zps7d714e22.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/Circles3done_zps7d714e22.png.html)
For anyone thinking "Well now he's back inside your turn circle and he's going to shoot you!" Remember, turn CIRCLES are SPHERES. In this case I also went into a climb over the top of LtCondor and he misses the shot and overshoots. ;)
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I think you'll find the turn circle is a very useful concept. The next thing to learn is the post, which is the center of the circle, and the entry window behind the post, for efficiently flying to the bandit's 6. I'll put a pic up when I get home.
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The next thing to learn is the post, which is the center of the circle, and the entry window behind the post, for efficiently flying to the bandit's 6. I'll put a pic up when I get home.
I think I've done that before. Is that where you predict your opponents turn and start your attack run before his turn and catch him at a certain point in his turn? I might have done this a few times when killing planes hiding in base ack. I start my attack as they're just coming out of the ack knowing that they will turn back once they get too far. I usually get them about halfway through their turn as they try to get back to the ack.
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I think I've done that before. Is that where you predict your opponents turn and start your attack run before his turn and catch him at a certain point in his turn? I might have done this a few times when killing planes hiding in base ack. I start my attack as they're just coming out of the ack knowing that they will turn back once they get too far. I usually get them about halfway through their turn as they try to get back to the ack.
Eventually you learn a lot through experience but starting with the basic concepts should help people learn faster. Flying behind the post to the entry window gives you enough turning room to approximately match flight paths. Flying in front of the post leads to a flight path overshoot and may allow the bandit to turn to your 6. The choice is based on whether you want a tracking shot or a crossing snap shot.
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Don't mind the jets, it's from an AF manual.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b2b0/96kr6j48jeglo744g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?96kr6j48jeglo74)
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Don't mind the jets, it's from an AF manual.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b2b0/96kr6j48jeglo744g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?96kr6j48jeglo74)
can you explain what we are seeing here and how to use the circles, entry window and so on. It looks like the chase plane pulls a hard angle between "B" and "C". Is this a drawing mistake, or is the chase plane pulling inside they others circle? If so how if we assume like aircraft?
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can you explain what we are seeing here and how to use the circles, entry window and so on. It looks like the chase plane pulls a hard angle between "B" and "C". Is this a drawing mistake, or is the chase plane pulling inside they others circle? If so how if we assume like aircraft?
The point of the illustration is to show you where to enter the bandit's turn circle in order to fly to their 6. With that in mind look at the circles Latrobe drew on his screenshots. Flying behind the post to the entry window gives you enough turning room to approximately match flight paths. Flying in front of the post leads to a flight path overshoot and may allow the bandit to turn to your 6. The choice is based on whether you want a tracking shot or a crossing snap shot.
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Don't mind the jets, it's from an AF manual.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/b2b0/96kr6j48jeglo744g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?96kr6j48jeglo74)
Well that picture doesn't explain anything other than that the inside plane can evidently turn harder than the outside plane which he seems to do well after passing through the illustrated "entry window".
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Well that picture doesn't explain anything other than that the inside plane can evidently turn harder than the outside plane which he seems to do well after passing through the illustrated "entry window".
The picture is not an explanation. It's an illustration of the best entry to the bandit's turn circle if you wish to fly to the control position on the bandit's 6.
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What it looks like to me is that the attacking plane flies a lag pursuit on the defending plane at B and all the way up until just before C. Then at C the attacking plane starts pulling inside the defenders turn to a pure or even lead pursuit. At C the attacker could have continued a lag pursuit to stay locked on the defenders six, but it looks like they wanted to keep this diagram short and simple and had him pull for a pure pursuit. I'm assuming both planes in that diagram are at Co-E and have at least roughly the same turn rate (or radius I don't know which of these turning terms is correct), so there's no risk of overshooting from having too much speed or a worse turn rate and it's all about the angles.
If that's the case then I think I see what FLS is saying. Fly BEHIND the post to position yourself BEHIND your opponent. Fly IN FRONT of the post to fly IN FRONT of your opponent and try for a snap shot. It really is that simple, it's just a little hard to see it in your head. I only got it after looking at FLS's diagram for a bit.
Look at the image in sections instead of a whole and it might make a little more sense. Look at where both planes are and where they're pointed at in points A, A and a half, B, B and a half, and then C.
A looks like a lead pursuit possibly from trying to line up a shot before the turn.
Half way down A's path the defending plane is directly off the attackers nose which makes it a pure pursuit now. The attacker does not turn with him and instead enters a lag pursuit to enter BEHIND THE POST.
B the attacker still has yet to turn as he continues to fly a lag pursuit to enter BEHIND THE POST. The attacker is trying to match his turn circle (or flight path if that makes more sense) to the defenders turn circle (flight path) by flying the same path as him.
Halfway down B's path the attacker has now started his turn and keeps in lag pursuit to match turn circles (or flight paths). The attacker enters BEHIND THE POST because he's aiming to get on the defenders six before he shoots.
C the attacker starts pulling to a pure pursuit and his nose is now pointed at the defenders six. He gains the defenders six from flying lag pursuit and entering BEHIND THE POST.
I hope FLS doesn't mind me drawing graffiti all over his pretty diagram. :D
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/turncircleentry2red_zps13c491a5.jpg) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/turncircleentry2red_zps13c491a5.jpg.html)
Now here's entering AHEAD OF THE POST.
At Halfway through A the attacker continues pulling his lead turn for a shot instead of dropping back to lag pursuit.
At B the attacker is still pulling lead and enters AHEAD OF THE POST. See the difference in between the two B's? When he enters BEHIND THE POST he's positioned more towards the defenders six. When he enters AHEAD OF THE POST he's getting further from the defenders six.
Halway through B the attacker is still pulling lead and getting further from the defenders six, and then at C we can see the classic snap shot that we've all taken many times before. The defender is flying across the nose of the attacker giving the attacker a snap shot. However, the attacker has made it a lot easier for the defender to avoid this shot by entering BEFORE THE POST. If the attacker misses his shot then he will overshoot and the defender can then become the attacker. Entering BEHIND THE POST keeps the attacker on the defenders six and makes it harder for the defender to force an overshoot.
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You could also say that the sharp turn by the attacker bleeds excess speed while giving the required turn but really it's just an illustration of the correct entry to the bandit's turn circle. Btw if you look at the flight path length then C for the attacker would already be a flight path overshoot.