Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: f15sim on November 18, 2013, 10:20:20 AM
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I'd attempted to create an account here so you folks could take a look at castAR and maybe get in on the Kickstarter.
However, since the admin team (for whatever reason) decided to take 3-4 days to validate my account, you guys just have to wait until after Sept. 2014 to get your hands on it. :D
Here's the KS page: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/technicalillusions/castar-the-most-versatile-ar-and-vr-system
Their website is here: http://www.technicalillusions.com
The reason I'm posting this is because I think castAR is going to revolutionize how visual systems are done for flight (and other) simulation. It renders the collimated display I built (http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll) fairly obsolete.
Does Aces High have support for data export in order to drive real-world instruments?
g. (tspec in the AWIII days)
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I sense hocus pocus donation humping.
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That reply makes no sense.
g.
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Voss is back.
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Voss is back.
That is exactly what went through my mind, as well.
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Ahh, I get it. You're under the impression that I'm some kind of troll and/or spammer. :D
My name is Gene Buckle and here's some of the things I've been working on...
My F-15C flight simulator -> http://www.f15sim.com
Misc. simulator projects -> http://geneb.simpits.org
The world's first DIY collimated display for flight and driving simulators -> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll
So no, I'm not "Voss".
g.
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Are you planning on flying Aces high with us?
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It's certainly on my to-do list.
Does AH support data exports?
g.
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It's certainly on my to-do list.
diplomatic answer :D
Does AH support data exports?
No.
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Rats. :D
g.
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so you are asking for donations and that is basically it.
semp
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Oh yes, I'm asking for donations to a Kickstarter that's closed. *rolls eyes*
There's folks out there that would like using castAR with sims like Aces High. I had originally hoped to be able to post a link to the KS in time for those that WERE to be able to get in on the first run.
g.
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Donations (informational spamola)= handouts of any kind. (Anything to help them move their cause along. See, any normal human being would have contacted AH directly being their contact info is on their home page)
Time
Money
Data
Information
Community relations
I'm quite certain my comment makes sense to you now.
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oculus rift works with aces high somewhat. how is yours different that oculus rift? cant tell if you already have a prototype working as oculus rift is ready to go full blast next year. some people here already have developer's kits.
semp
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Voss Buckle
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castAR is augmented reality, not virtual. It allows you to interact with your physical environment without blocking your vision. Here's a couple examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhdqMpTgSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3HGrclGkIE
However, since AH doesn't support data export I suspect that the Oculus Rift and an xbox controller will be the interface of choice. :)
g.
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Voss Buckle
Ok, I'll bite. Who is Voss?
g.
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how much is your prototype?
semp
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castAR is augmented reality, not virtual. It allows you to interact with your physical environment without blocking your vision. Here's a couple examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhdqMpTgSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3HGrclGkIE
However, since AH doesn't support data export I suspect that the Oculus Rift and an xbox controller will be the interface of choice. :)
g.
Your sarcasm and snarky tone gives you away and probably costs you any credibility you may have had.
Seems like a Voss-fit to me.
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It's not *mine*. I'm a backer, not any part of the company.
There were two prototypes listed in the KS for $10k each. I read an article that mentioned the Oculus Rift developer bought one of the two. (article is here: http://www.roadtovr.com/tag/palmer-luckey-castar/)
g.
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It's not *mine*. I'm a backer, not any part of the company.
There were two prototypes listed in the KS for $10k each. I read an article that mentioned the Oculus Rift developer bought one of the two. (article is here: http://www.roadtovr.com/tag/palmer-luckey-castar/)
g.
Ok. Thx for the info. Good to know.
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Your sarcasm and snarky tone gives you away and probably costs you any credibility you may have had.
Seems like a Voss-fit to me.
Wow.
I post a link to a really cool (and relevant) product that I suspect you guys might be interested in and I all I get in return is insults, so yeah I'm going to be snarky and sarcastic.
g.
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See Rules #2, #4
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I would snap at if Hiteh would support it. Be a whole lot better than trackir. Where do you get it
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I suspect they'll be commercially available after the KS group gets their production models in September 2014.
Technical Illusions showed off working hardware at Maker Fair SF in May - there's a lot of video of it in action. Leo Laporte did an hour interview with the creators on his Triangulation show (http://www.twit.tv) and there's coverage on tested.com too.
g.
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See Rules #2, #4
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See Rules #2, #4
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How will this compare to Oculus Rift VR set?
ack-ack
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Still, the product is exactly what everyone would want.
I know I want one now
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If you're curious about castAR, there's a lot of helpful people over at http://technicalillusions.com/forums/ that would be happy to answer any questions you've got.
g.
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imho CastAR won't be any good for AH. It doesn't offer the same FoV as the Oculus Rift, and there will be the challenge of two screens (you get issues in colour alignment).
I'd wait for the Rift HD retail product, it will have 6DoF tracking and an HD screen with a nice broad FoV.
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:noid Similar talk seems like 12 years ago.
:cheers: Oz
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imho CastAR won't be any good for AH. It doesn't offer the same FoV as the Oculus Rift, and there will be the challenge of two screens (you get issues in colour alignment).
I'd wait for the Rift HD retail product, it will have 6DoF tracking and an HD screen with a nice broad FoV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3HGrclGkIE
in this video it looks pretty good. I imagine the goal would be to create a full 180 or even 360 coverage of the flexible screens. Would that not be better than VR?
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Mechanic, the castAR can follow many tracking targets - this allows a builder to construct a dome or other enclosure that you can be guaranteed of never losing head tracking - the tracking camera on the castAR has a 110 degree FOV, so if you place tracking target (basically five IR LEDs) every 90-100 degrees along both axes, you're set. The goal for the integrated IMU was met so even if the tracking camera manages to lose all the tracking targets, the IMU can take over until such time as the camera can re-accquire a tracking target.
I did some digging and I really don't care for being compared to this Voss dude. I'm certain that every statement I've made here can be easily and independently verified by anyone here that cares to click the links I've provided. Or better yet, search YouTube and Google for "castAR" and see what you get.
g.
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it will take up a room and cost 10k or more. not very affordable for gaming. wonder what kind of computer is needed to run that thing too.
semp
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I did some digging and I really don't care for being compared to this Voss dude.
Well if ya dug enough and read enough of what you found you'd know this guy is a psychotic scammer that has plagued this community (and another similar one) for quite a long time. Like a boomerang, he goes away and then returns after a while under another name with some crazy can't miss moneymaking scam--for him anyway. This has gone on for years and years and it's just a community thing to make sure the others that might be new to the group don't get sucked in.
If you're legit, best of luck to you.
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Well if ya dug enough and read enough of what you found you'd know this guy is a psychotic scammer that has plagued this community (and another similar one) for quite a long time. Like a boomerang, he goes away and then returns after a while under another name with some crazy can't miss moneymaking scam--for him anyway. This has gone on for years and years and it's just a community thing to make sure the others that might be new to the group don't get sucked in.
If you're legit, best of luck to you.
Understood, but it's _blatantly_ obvious that I'm not that guy and I mean *BLATANTLY*. My YouTube channel is here: http://www.youtube.com/f15sim. Nothing but 3D printing, ShopBot stuff, cockpit building and electronics interfacing. Nary a CIA agent, F-16 pilot or "war" story in the bunch. As the only civilian in the world to own an F-15C fuselage section, I'm not exactly unknown, especially in hard-core flight simulation circles (Steve Canaby owns the only other F-15 cockpit section - an A model he scored a couple of years ago. (He's got a B-52 flight deck that I would LOVE to get my hands on...))
If you guys want to treat new people like utter crap, that's entirely up to you - but it doesn't exactly paint your community in a very good light.
g.
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Your mistake was leading off with the whole Kickstarter money angle...
It would have been received much better if you had simply gone with, "Check out this cool new thing that is being developed"...
People who are really interested would have found their way to the KickStarter on their own.
This community got seriously burned, and consequently remains suspicious and quite jaded. You shouldn't take it personally, but you should also understand why.
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Your mistake was leading off with the whole Kickstarter money angle...
It would have been received much better if you had simply gone with, "Check out this cool new thing that is being developed"...
People who are really interested would have found their way to the KickStarter on their own.
This community got seriously burned, and consequently remains suspicious and quite jaded. You shouldn't take it personally, but you should also understand why.
Ding ding ding!!! We have a winnah!
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Your mistake was leading off with the whole Kickstarter money angle...
It would have been received much better if you had simply gone with, "Check out this cool new thing that is being developed"...
People who are really interested would have found their way to the KickStarter on their own.
This community got seriously burned, and consequently remains suspicious and quite jaded. You shouldn't take it personally, but you should also understand why.
Granted, the first post could have been a bit more clear, but it's pretty obvious by what I wrote that the KS was closed by the time I was able to get my account validated in order to post the message. It's kind of hard to accuse someone of begging for money when there's no actual mechanism present to take any...
I did learn one thing - the effort to avoid tit-for-tat is bloody exhausting. :D
g.
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Granted, the first post could have been a bit more clear, but it's pretty obvious by what I wrote that the KS was closed by the time I was able to get my account validated in order to post the message. It's kind of hard to accuse someone of begging for money when there's no actual mechanism present to take any...
I did learn one thing - the effort to avoid tit-for-tat is bloody exhausting. :D
g.
Pretty obvious to whom? I, therefore you is a terrible way to manage your communication especially to audiences you claim not to be familiar with.
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It was obvious to me that the kick starter campaign was closed and he was just letting people know that a new VR/AR bit of hardware was being created. You guys seem pretty churlish but I will admit the style sounded to my ear a little too breezy and over familiar, reminiscent of those cheery "check this out guys, I couldn't believe it, it really works" kind of spam things.
If you took the time to look at his display you'd have realized he is just an alpha enthusiast who creates impressive stuff. Makes me jealous.
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It was obvious to me that the kick starter campaign was closed and he was just letting people know that a new VR/AR bit of hardware was being created. You guys seem pretty churlish but I will admit the style sounded to my ear a little too breezy and over familiar, reminiscent of those cheery "check this out guys, I couldn't believe it, it really works" kind of spam things.
If you took the time to look at his display you'd have realized he is just an alpha enthusiast who creates impressive stuff. Makes me jealous.
As with most things misunderstood, misinterpreted, under stated, over stated and underwhelmed... it's never the end, it's always the means.
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How do you feel about bit coins?
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How do you feel about bit coins?
The same way I feel about mp3 songs.
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Florida timeshares?
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Florida timeshares?
Make me an offer. 12 weeks per year and the management company has it leased 9 weeks after I choose my three so I make a little. Destin. If you've got the money, lemme know but I'm betting you don't.
What else would you like to know?
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Bad bet, no need to get hostile.
I confess I'm not real familiar with the timeshare thing, I just always figured it was a bad deal from the sound of it. No offense.
I'm pretty much a "no" person when somebody tells me about investment schemes etc.
Does the time share work like this: you buy in with a chunk of cash and get 12 weeks of use at a resort, there is a maintenance fee but the rent on the timeshare when your not using it covers that plus some extra? If you want to sell your timeshare how does that work?
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Bad bet, no need to get hostile.
I confess I'm not real familiar with the timeshare thing, I just always figured it was a bad deal from the sound of it. No offense.
I'm pretty much a "no" person when somebody tells me about investment schemes etc.
Does the time share work like this: you buy in with a chunk of cash and get 12 weeks of use at a resort, there is a maintenance fee but the rent on the timeshare when your not using it covers that plus some extra? If you want to sell your timeshare how does that work?
Best to read up on some of the websites. Some are resort, some are homes. Mine is a home 40 yards from the beach. Beware of management company contracts and if you choose to invest in one, you'll be fine.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3HGrclGkIE
in this video it looks pretty good. I imagine the goal would be to create a full 180 or even 360 coverage of the flexible screens. Would that not be better than VR?
That's not the point, you are still limited to a FoV supplied by those screens. CastAR rate it as 90 degrees but it doesn't even look close to that to me (maybe 45 degrees).
Also when you use it in VR mode you don't need to use those screens.
There are also questions about the CastAR tracking system, it has a limited FoV so may not deal with the tracking required for flight sims very well.
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ah ok, so oculus would be a better choice all round then.
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ah ok, so oculus would be a better choice all round then.
For Aces High most definitely.
For this F15 guy castAR has some unique offerings if he uses it as an AR instead of VR solution. With AR he can still look at the cockpits he's built.
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The tracking camera that's mounted to the bridge of the castAR frames has a FOV of 110 degrees.
The tracking targets are made up of five IR LEDs. They're arranged in a square pattern with the fifth LED offset diagonally a short distance from the lower left corner. The fifth LED does two jobs - it identifies the lower left corner of the tracking target (and thus its orientation) and its output is modulated by a cheap micro-controller. This allows individual tracking targets to be identified.
Technical Illusions will be releasing the modulation method for the tracking targets so people can build them if they don't want to buy them - the system is simple enough that you could build one for about $7 at the high end.
castAR can track up to 200 targets - I suspect because they're using an 8 bit modulation code which would limit the total to 255 combinations and they're reserving some for "internal" use.
If you want to build a complete 360 degree environment, you would place a tracking target about every 90-100 degrees to give yourself a bit of overlap. This would pretty much ensure that no matter where you looked, you'd ever lose tracking. Because they're going to be including an IMU as well, even if the tracking camera were to lose sight of the available targets, the IMU could take over until such time as the camera was able to re-acquire a target.
Tracking is handled by an FPGA (currently - an ASIC will be created for the production model once the feature set is set in concrete) mounted to the castAR. This keeps all the tracking load on the castAR and not on the host, which makes for very, very fast tracking. I don't know what the actual latency is, but I've read that it's as-good or better than the currently published figures for the Rift. Tracking data is passed to the host via USB cable and according to Jeri & Rick's interview on Triangulation (http://twit.tv/show/triangulation/124) the data packets are 72 bytes long. I don't recall what the data rate is however. (Watch the episode, it's got a lot of good information in it by the people that created it.)
castAR connects to the host via HDMI cable for video. The host considers castAR to be a single 2560x720 display. The current version of castAR utilizes two 720p pico projectors mounted over the center of each eye. The projectors put out a very low level of light. So low that unless you're looking at a retro-reflective surface, you won't see the output of the projectors. However, with RR material, the output is clean and bright, even in normal room lighting. The reason this works like this is because the retro-reflective surface (essentially the same fabric used for safety stripes on clothing) has a very, very narrow angle of reflection. This means that nearly all the output from the projectors is reflected directly back at the source with very little loss due to scattering effects. This phenomenon allows more than one castAR user to share the same retro-reflective surface without causing display interference. For example, given an RR surface on a table and one tracking target, user two can sit shoulder to shoulder with user one and they'll both see the same thing, from slightly different angles (due to the horizontal offset from the tracking target) and there won't be any image "contamination" from the projectors. Tandem use is also possible, so you fast-mover fans could actually build a tandem cockpit with a practical and affordable video system.
I don't recall what the exact horizontal FOV is, but it's the _actual_ FOV from the projectors, not optically modified as with the Rift. (With the Rift, you're looking at two "halves" of the same LCD panel and its internal optics are broadening what you see, so all the raving about how the Rift's FOV is so much better than x, y or z is mostly nonsense.) castAR utilizes LCD shutters that operate at 120Hz to give the "3D" effect. Each shutter operates at a 50% duty cycle and the projectors have some small percentage of overlap (I don't recall the exact figure.) and each eye "sees" a full 1280x720 image. (There's more going on with the system at this level, but I don't recall the details - I think most of it is covered in the Triangulation episode I link to above.)
castAR also has a VR "clip-on" which is essentially a special pair of lenses that fit on the face of the castAR and reflect the output of the projectors into your eyes. I know very little about this feature because it's not my area of interest.
Finally, the target weight of castAR is 100g and it doesn't interfere with glasses.
Questions?
g
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The problem with LED tracking systems is it requires CPU overhead, and the more points you track the higher the overhead. And it's not adaptive or portable.
CastAR is nice for a cockpit builder, but for regular VR use the Rift is a superior option.
My Rift is the 4th VR headset I've owned, and the 3rd VR headset I've used with Aces High (I've been playing Aces High with VR headsets for around 7 years now).
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So f15 does this mean I could build a simpit inside a sphere of reflective stuff and be able to see out the windows? Can the projectors project far enough and would there be back scattering from the pit? Also is there a reflective coating that would work or is there only fabric? I always figured that a collimated display as you built would be better because of latency but couldn't see how you could make a sphere out of it without a defense contract.
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Wow.
I post a link to a really cool (and relevant) product that I suspect you guys might be interested in and I all I get in return is insults.
g.
welcome to the Aces High BBS! :)
short on reading comprehension, but full to the brim with nerd angst and impotent rage
:x hi Changeup
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The problem with LED tracking systems is it requires CPU overhead, and the more points you track the higher the overhead. And it's not adaptive or portable.
You likely missed the part where I mentioned that the tracking data processing happens on the castAR and only passes the results of the tracking processing to the host in 72 byte packets. Therefore, "cpu overhead" is a non-issue.
CastAR is nice for a cockpit builder, but for regular VR use the Rift is a superior option.
No, you _think_ the Rift is the superior solution. Until you've tried both, you don't have enough information to make a logical decision. :)
g.
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So f15 does this mean I could build a simpit inside a sphere of reflective stuff and be able to see out the windows? Can the projectors project far enough and would there be back scattering from the pit? Also is there a reflective coating that would work or is there only fabric? I always figured that a collimated display as you built would be better because of latency but couldn't see how you could make a sphere out of it without a defense contract.
Yes, you could build a sphere out of the fabric for use with a cockpit. I'm going to be building a 96" diameter half-sphere test rig shortly. I'm hoping it'll attract the TI team into giving me some hands on time with castAR before April. *laughs*
My understanding is that because of how the projectors work, unless the material is retro-reflective, you're not going to see an image reflected in it. That being said, you might see something if the only light available is that coming from castAR.
There's only one surround collimated display in commercial use at the moment. L3 makes them for military flight simulators that are based on fighters. The "cheap" ones start out around $20M USD each. The display is built from individual geodesic panels, each one being a "sandwich" of optical material that delivers a collimated display. When combined into a dome AND when you're in the center of the space defined by the sphere, the display is insanely great. If you get off axis, things start creeping around the "corners" that make up the cells and it looks all wrong.
You CAN build a total 360 degree display system without any AR/VR gear. It's called a "cube map". You create a space (say a cube, 8-9' to a side) and set it up so there's one projector aimed at each inside face of the cube (6 projectors total). You place your cockpit such that your head will be in the geometric center of the cube and you'll have a fantastic display. There's a couple of people doing this with DCS: A-10 (Flim and others) right now.
From what I've heard, Jeri & Rick have done some limited testing of spray-on retro-reflictive paints, but haven't had much luck. I sent them two screen samples I built a couple of weeks ago. They're basically 1/8 hardboard painted with Behr Silver Screen paint and have really, really, really tiny glass beads (bead blasting media) embedded while the paint was still wet. I haven't asked about a testing report yet as I wanted to avoid bugging them about it until they'd had time to recover from the media blitz they did towards the end of the Kickstarter.
g.
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welcome to the Aces High BBS! :)
short on reading comprehension, but full to the brim with nerd angst and impotent rage
:x hi Changeup
It's been...educational.
What amazes me is the number of 9 year olds that can afford to play the game... :D
g.
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You likely missed the part where I mentioned that the tracking data processing happens on the castAR and only passes the results of the tracking processing to the host in 72 byte packets. Therefore, "cpu overhead" is a non-issue.No, you _think_ the Rift is the superior solution. Until you've tried both, you don't have enough information to make a logical decision. :)
g.
You haven't tried either, the CastAR hasn't even made it to a fully working prototype even. I have doubts about the reflective capabilities over longer distances that would be needed for a simpit.
Aces High does not support external instrument systems.
From my point of view you haven't thought it through properly, nor have much experience with VR systems. Have you even owned or tried a VR headset?
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You haven't tried either, the CastAR hasn't even made it to a fully working prototype even. I have doubts about the reflective capabilities over longer distances that would be needed for a simpit.
Aces High does not support external instrument systems.
From my point of view you haven't thought it through properly, nor have much experience with VR systems. Have you even owned or tried a VR headset?
Looks like the 9 year olds noses work just fine.
As we said. Spam.
Hi Gemini.