Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GScholz on November 19, 2013, 05:22:03 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
Most impressive!
Lars Andersen, a danish archer, is rediscovering the ancient techniques of the masters of archery.
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Very impressive.
Wouldn't want to get on his bad side :D
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That guy is good. :aok
Shot a bow alot when I was younger. Had a 60# longbow very accurate but never was a speed demon. Like sports you should use your instinct to aim. Very interesting the history of the bow. Good Find.
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Very cool video..
Question, tho.. They used a computer voice for the narration, didn't they? Very distracting..
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Very cool video..
Question, tho.. They used a computer voice for the narration, didn't they? Very distracting..
I agree, very distracting. Could be that they used it for the English translation.
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:O holy cow...that is friggin awesome. i want to talk to that guy and get some lessons.
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seen Batty do this, drunk , falling off a horse..
standard Bucks action
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Wow!
I had no idea, Now, when I think of the stories of the armies of Persia shooting so many arrows into the sky it blotted out the sun, maybe this was involved.
boo
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Yes they used some text-to-voice software for the narration. It's probably for the best considering how Danes sound when trying to speak English...
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Drive by archery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOnyEbU-3hU&
:lol
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That's something else... At first I was thinking he was using a relatively low poundage bow, but watching it a second time, it looks to me like it might not be.
Unreal shooting though. I did a lot of traditional archery in my teens, and when I was at my best it was like throwing a ball, but my MIND doesn't work as fast as that guy, never mind my body...
Wiley.
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i want to know how he knocks the arrows to quickly and accurately...
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i want to know how he knocks the arrows to quickly and accurately...
Watching the vid I asked myself the same thing,looks like he uses several various finger holds to notch and draw.
I could ne mistaken but I thought the Persians used Bow rings to draw the bows they used,I do know the Mongols did with their horse bows.
I would bet the bow used was around a 45# draw,I'm working on a longbow,sort of,it's actually a flat bow that's 72 inches nock to nock and has atleast a 60# draw. I actually got a scale today to test the draw weight before I put the final finish on it,incase I might need to lighten the draw a wee bit!
Now to figure out how to do a Flemish twist!
:salute
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i'm looking into a take down bow with a metal riser and composite limbs around 45-50lbs for small game hunting...if i could shoot the thing like that guy in the video, i could save money on arrows. :lol
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i want to know how he knocks the arrows to quickly and accurately...
I'm guessing he's using a pinch draw, rather than a Mediterranean or Mongolian draw/hold. The pinch draw wasn't uncommon, and it allowed for very quick "indexing" of the nock against the string.
I also suspect he's using an arrow with a different nock style. Most of us are most familiar with Mediterranean finger holds, and arrows nocked appropriately for that method, but that's far from the only style of nock/hold used traditionally.
With a pinch grip, and a more bulbous, shallow-notched, "cross-nocked" arrow he'd be able to almost ignore the need to line the nock up with the string. He'd hold multiple arrows in his hand, and just open his thumb to slide the string into his hand, pinch the arrow, and draw, allowing the string to fall into place on the nock on its own.
Imagine a nock that doesn't look so much like a slotted screw on the end, but rather closer to a phillips head screw. More like this --> (+) than this --> (l). The notches wouldn't be nearly as deep-cut as we're accustomed to either.
These types of nocks were also more common amongst horse-mounted archers, who might have had difficulty lining up a slotted nock on a bouncing, moving horse. With these types of nocks, you would also likely see a 2- or 4- fletched arrow, rather than a three-fletched arrow with one fletch being a different color...
The type of archery shown sacrifices accuracy for speed, so the deeper nock and using a fletch to index the arrow on the string goes right out the window.
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Putting a word in for poor Legolas I'd think the Silvan longbow had a bit more draw weight than a short bow optimized for speed shooting and piercing cardboard, not orcs... ;)
Estimates for the draw of these bows varies considerably. Before the recovery of the Mary Rose, Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimated the bows of the Medieval period drew 90110 pounds-force (400490 newtons), maximum, and Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believed the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 8090 lbf (360400 N).[9] Other sources suggest significantly higher draw weights. The original draw forces of examples from the Mary Rose are estimated by Hardy at 150160 lbf (670710 N) at a 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length; the full range of draw weights was between 100185 lbf (440820 N).[10] The 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length was used because that is the length allowed by the arrows commonly found on the Mary Rose.
A modern longbow's draw is typically 60 lbf (270 N) or less, and by modern convention measured at 28 inches (71.1 cm). Historically, hunting bows usually had draw weights of 5060 lbf (220270 N), which is enough for all but the very largest game and which most reasonably fit adults can manage with practice. Today, there are few modern longbowmen capable of using 180185 lbf (800820 N) bows accurately.[11][12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow
-C+
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Elves are such cheats...
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I'm guessing he's using a pinch draw, rather than a Mediterranean or Mongolian draw/hold. The pinch draw wasn't uncommon, and it allowed for very quick "indexing" of the nock against the string.
I also suspect he's using an arrow with a different nock style. Most of us are most familiar with Mediterranean finger holds, and arrows nocked appropriately for that method, but that's far from the only style of nock/hold used traditionally.
With a pinch grip, and a more bulbous, shallow-notched, "cross-nocked" arrow he'd be able to almost ignore the need to line the nock up with the string. He'd hold multiple arrows in his hand, and just open his thumb to slide the string into his hand, pinch the arrow, and draw, allowing the string to fall into place on the nock on its own.
Imagine a nock that doesn't look so much like a slotted screw on the end, but rather closer to a phillips head screw. More like this --> (+) than this --> (l). The notches wouldn't be nearly as deep-cut as we're accustomed to either.
These types of nocks were also more common amongst horse-mounted archers, who might have had difficulty lining up a slotted nock on a bouncing, moving horse. With these types of nocks, you would also likely see a 2- or 4- fletched arrow, rather than a three-fletched arrow with one fletch being a different color...
The type of archery shown sacrifices accuracy for speed, so the deeper nock and using a fletch to index the arrow on the string goes right out the window.
very interesting...thank you for the information. didn't realize there were different nock styles or that there were names for them. i'm going to have to look for nocks like that when i purchase arrows for small game.
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I'm guessing he's using a pinch draw, rather than a Mediterranean or Mongolian draw/hold. The pinch draw wasn't uncommon, and it allowed for very quick "indexing" of the nock against the string.
It's what it looked like to me on the video. Was kind of hard to tell but it looked to me like he was pinching between his thumb and forefinger, he might've been using a thumb ring, hard to tell from the video.
I also suspect he's using an arrow with a different nock style. Most of us are most familiar with Mediterranean finger holds, and arrows nocked appropriately for that method, but that's far from the only style of nock/hold used traditionally.
With a pinch grip, and a more bulbous, shallow-notched, "cross-nocked" arrow he'd be able to almost ignore the need to line the nock up with the string. He'd hold multiple arrows in his hand, and just open his thumb to slide the string into his hand, pinch the arrow, and draw, allowing the string to fall into place on the nock on its own.
Imagine a nock that doesn't look so much like a slotted screw on the end, but rather closer to a phillips head screw. More like this --> (+) than this --> (l). The notches wouldn't be nearly as deep-cut as we're accustomed to either.
Interesting. Never heard of such a thing, but it makes sense.
These types of nocks were also more common amongst horse-mounted archers, who might have had difficulty lining up a slotted nock on a bouncing, moving horse. With these types of nocks, you would also likely see a 2- or 4- fletched arrow, rather than a three-fletched arrow with one fletch being a different color...
The type of archery shown sacrifices accuracy for speed, so the deeper nock and using a fletch to index the arrow on the string goes right out the window.
As long as it was clearing the riser, I wouldn't think it would make much difference to accuracy, other than the speed he's doing it at.
I'd be really curious if his draw weight is posted somewhere...
Wiley.
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I'd be surprised if it was more than 50 pounds. Most short bows aren't.
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very odd style...instead of anchoring the bow and pulling the string back, he does a push/pull sort of thing. both arms are in motion...
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Yes they used some text-to-voice software for the narration. It's probably for the best considering how Danes sound when trying to speak English...
:furious
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Have en lille en... :cheers:
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Have en lille en... :cheers:
Lψfter glasset mod nord - og skεl til dig... :cheers:
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It's what it looked like to me on the video. Was kind of hard to tell but it looked to me like he was pinching between his thumb and forefinger, he might've been using a thumb ring, hard to tell from the video.
He's placing the arrow on the correct side of the bow for a right-handed thumb draw, but on the wrong side for a Mediterranean draw. If he's using a thumb ring, I'd expect him to have the arrow on the left side of the bow?
A pinch draw could be used either way.
Looking at his film closer, he's using modified plastic nocks; not the type I was referring to earlier. He's just heated and flared his out. He's probably filed grooves in front of the nocks too, to allow him to index the nocks in his right hand between his fingers. The combination would allow him to shoot pretty dang fast with a thumb draw (but it pretty much rules out a pinch draw).
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He's placing the arrow on the correct side of the bow for a right-handed thumb draw, but on the wrong side for a Mediterranean draw. If he's using a thumb ring, I'd expect him to have the arrow on the left side of the bow?
Though I've never looked at it that hard, from what I can recall reading up on it the thumb ring draw uses the opposite side from the Mediterranean draw as well. Just to be clear on terminology, I assume a Mediterranean draw is the standard 3 finger, one above 2 below?
I might've been looking at a pinch draw when I thought I was looking at a thumb ring draw though. This was in the late 80s/early 90s, pre-Internet for me.
I spent a lot of time looking at release technique when I used to shoot a compound. I wound up drawing with 3 fingers, then dropping to only holding it with my middle finger after the weight slackened at full draw. It worked awfully well. Then I switched to traditional and never looked back.
What he's doing there is slightly intriguing to me, but I don't have access to a right side shelf bow.
Wiley.
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Though I've never looked at it that hard, from what I can recall reading up on it the thumb ring draw uses the opposite side from the Mediterranean draw as well. Just to be clear on terminology, I assume a Mediterranean draw is the standard 3 finger, one above 2 below?
I might've been looking at a pinch draw when I thought I was looking at a thumb ring draw though. This was in the late 80s/early 90s, pre-Internet for me.
I spent a lot of time looking at release technique when I used to shoot a compound. I wound up drawing with 3 fingers, then dropping to only holding it with my middle finger after the weight slackened at full draw. It worked awfully well. Then I switched to traditional and never looked back.
What he's doing there is slightly intriguing to me, but I don't have access to a right side shelf bow.
Wiley.
Yes, Mediterranean is generally one finger above, two below. It can also be one above/one below, or all three below, and there are various anchor points used (top finger at corner of mouth, middle finger at corner of mouth etc.).
With the Med draw, the draw usually starts with the string in or near the first crease of the fingers, but at anchor the string is usually a bit further out (about half way between the crease and the finger tip). This has the effect of rolling the string a bit during the draw. For a right-handed archer, the roll of the string is clockwise as viewed from above, so with the arrow placed on the left side of the bow the roll will have the effect of "holding" the arrow against the bow. If you placed it on the right side of the bow though, it would have the effect of pulling the arrow away from the bow, causing it to fall off of the shelf. Of course, with the arrow on the left, and the roll of the string working as it should, you can still make the arrow fall off of the shelf if you have errors with the draw (generally, I'll see "cupping" of the string hand, or too much tension in that hand, etc...).
With a thumb draw though, the roll/rotation of the string is reversed. For a right-handed shooter (holding the bow in the left hand) the rotation of the string is counter-clockwise as viewed from above. Placing the arrow on the left side of the bow will cause the arrow to fall of of the shelf, but placing it on the right will cause the rotation to hold the arrow against the shelf.
So, a right-handed shooter would place the arrow on the left with a Med draw, or on the right with a thumb draw.
However, a thumb ring changes things again. Being as smooth as it is, and "hooking" the string, it doesn't impart the rotation to the string the same way. Generally it doesn't twist the string much at all, so the arrow could be placed on either side and held in place with a slight cant (tilt) of the bow.
This shooter shown is holding multiple arrows in his right hand at the same time, and he never crosses the arrow over the upper limb to place it on the left side. he's placing the arrows against the right side. This leads me to believe he's probably using a thumb draw, and I suspect without a thumb ring.
I started out shooting traditional as a kid, but mostly with recurves. I then "progressed to shooting compounds, and was even an archery instructor for a few years. Eventually, I went back to traditional, and went to longbows instead. My primary interest is in native american archery. I hand-craft my own arrows, leather equipment, and even knap arrowheads now and again (but they're illegal to hunt with here). I've made my own bows too; wooden self bows as well as laminated wood or wood and fiberglass bows.
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very odd style...instead of anchoring the bow and pulling the string back, he does a push/pull sort of thing. both arms are in motion...
This is known as a push-pull draw, and is common with traditional shooters.
You're probably more familiar with a set-arm arm draw, but there's also a locked-arm swing draw.
With compound shooters, the set-arm draw is by far the most common. Traditional shooters may use it too (I often do while hunting) but more commonly use a push-pull draw. One of the big "secrets" to success with traditional equipment is "pushing" the bow hand toward the target (physically and mentally). If you forget to do that, you often have arrows going all over the place... The push-pull method really helps with that. I use it whenever I can, but it can sometimes be difficult to get away with in a deer hunting situation (more movement involved).
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:furious
Lengro, after hearing you on vox, I don't blame them for needing text to vox translation!
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Everyone speculating about draw weight... did ya'll have a reading comprehension fail? He states it clearly in the credits at the end.
"2 rebuilt KAYA bows 30, 35 pounds."
Interesting technique, but like was pointed out, he's sacrificing accuracy for speed, not saying this wasn't how it was done though. I'm sure military archers or yore had different bows and techniques for different situations. I imagine a mounted archer would be devastating in close quarters with this technique and a light draw weight bow, at the same time I'm sure they utilized much heavier bows shooting from distance. In modern terms kind of like a 9mm SMG to a precision bolt action .338LM.
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Thread necro justified by this new impressive video by the same danish guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk)
:O :O
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
Most impressive!
Lars Andersen, a danish archer, is rediscovering the ancient techniques of the masters of archery.
Mythbusters couldn't split an arrow even when they set up a machine to launch the arrow exactly dead center. Makes you wonder...
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Mythbusters couldn't split an arrow even when they set up a machine to launch the arrow exactly dead center. Makes you wonder...
Mythbusters need to invite Anderson to the show....
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I've split an arrow with a field point and compound bow at 30yrds, it's pretty common with a modern compound bow target shooting.
I think this guy is impressive to a point. However his bow is too weak and easy to use, his wild jumping around antics serve no purpose other than theatrical entertainment and his methods would be seriously tested under the pressure of a cavalry charge beating down on him. He seems to think that a planned jump in a gym onto a crash mat proves he could fire arrows while falling of a horse? Not a chance that this is the same situation.
I'm not putting the guy down, his skills are interesting and the speed is impressive, but there are no practical situations where this style would be of use. Well, perhaps one situation, if he was being attack by soft skinned women in the nude armed with feather dusters.
Give me a yeoman archer firing 100-160lbs of longbow loosing 12 heavy ash shafts fletched with goose feather and tipped with 5 inches of bodkin a minute any day over this circus archery with a toy bow and plastic arrows.
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I've split an arrow with a field point and compound bow at 30yrds, it's pretty common with a modern compound bow target shooting.
I think this guy is impressive to a point. However his bow is too weak and easy to use, his wild jumping around antics serve no purpose other than theatrical entertainment and his methods would be seriously tested under the pressure of a cavalry charge beating down on him. He seems to think that a planned jump in a gym onto a crash mat proves he could fire arrows while falling of a horse? Not a chance that this is the same situation.
I'm not putting the guy down, his skills are interesting and the speed is impressive, but there are no practical situations where this style would be of use. Well, perhaps one situation, if he was being attack by soft skinned women in the nude armed with feather dusters.
Give me a yeoman archer firing 100-160lbs of longbow loosing 12 heavy ash shafts fletched with goose feather and tipped with 5 inches of bodkin a minute any day over this circus archery with a toy bow and plastic arrows.
Well yea, let him come into a combat situation against me with me in a foxhole armed with a SAW....
But that is not the point of Anderson. He has studied, practiced, and recreated combat tactics of old that while not employable in today's combat situation, certainly helps us understand what "good" was back then.
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They would not have even been useful 600 years ago at Agincourt. They would not have even been useful 1000 years ago against a Viking raiding party. They probably would not have even been useful 4000 years ago against bronze clad Egyptians. Perhaps they would be useful for hunting, however it makes a lot more sense to fire one high power arrow straight through an unaware target than pepper it's hide with 10 weak arrows while it runs away after the first hit.
I admire his skill, let me repeat that. A fantastic archer of his kind. I'd like to meet the guy and shoot with him. It's very cool. But it is for entertainment only.
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I've split an arrow with a field point and compound bow at 30yrds, it's pretty common with a modern compound bow target shooting.
That's a parlor trick, nothing more. An arrow is oscillating quite a bit in flight, that's not going to be a reliable shot. Deflecting it, sure, but consistently splitting lengthwise isn't happening. And hitting it is going to send parts heading in new and unpredictable directions. Skillwise, up there with shooting an aspirin out of the air but as an actual thing one would do in a fight? Not likely.
I think this guy is impressive to a point. However his bow is too weak and easy to use, his wild jumping around antics serve no purpose other than theatrical entertainment and his methods would be seriously tested under the pressure of a cavalry charge beating down on him. He seems to think that a planned jump in a gym onto a crash mat proves he could fire arrows while falling of a horse? Not a chance that this is the same situation.
Assuming you see the fall coming, the only material difference would be the sudden stop at the bottom. What happens between the fall and the impact would be no different.
I'm not putting the guy down, his skills are interesting and the speed is impressive, but there are no practical situations where this style would be of use. Well, perhaps one situation, if he was being attack by soft skinned women in the nude armed with feather dusters.
Give me a yeoman archer firing 100-160lbs of longbow loosing 12 heavy ash shafts fletched with goose feather and tipped with 5 inches of bodkin a minute any day over this circus archery with a toy bow and plastic arrows.
I've been thinking about it a bit lately. Not all combat involved armor that was particularly effective against arrows. A guy that made it a way of life could probably get close to that level of proficiency with a 50 or 60 lb bow, and that would be plenty for a lot of non-metal armor. The jumping around... whatever, but the shooting ability would be quite useful against non metal armored opponents.
Wiley.
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That's a parlor trick, nothing more. An arrow is oscillating quite a bit in flight, that's not going to be a reliable shot. Deflecting it, sure, but consistently splitting lengthwise isn't happening. And hitting it is going to send parts heading in new and unpredictable directions. Skillwise, up there with shooting an aspirin out of the air but as an actual thing one would do in a fight? Not likely.
absolutely, I was only commenting because someone said mythbusters said it wasn't possible.
Assuming you see the fall coming, the only material difference would be the sudden stop at the bottom. What happens between the fall and the impact would be no different.
I would expect that your only concern when falling off a horse is concentrating on not breaking your neck. But Perhaps you are right, I just can't see it.
I've been thinking about it a bit lately. Not all combat involved armor that was particularly effective against arrows. A guy that made it a way of life could probably get close to that level of proficiency with a 50 or 60 lb bow, and that would be plenty for a lot of non-metal armor. The jumping around... whatever, but the shooting ability would be quite useful against non metal armored opponents.
Wiley.
With a fully drawn 60lb bow, absolutely, then it would start becoming more useful. A lot of the trick shots in the video are not even close to full draw.
Consider that with adrenalin flowing most of these trick shots would not have stopped the enemy quick enough before they were slicing the archer in half.
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I've been thinking about it a bit lately. Not all combat involved armor that was particularly effective against arrows. A guy that made it a way of life could probably get close to that level of proficiency with a 50 or 60 lb bow, and that would be plenty for a lot of non-metal armor. The jumping around... whatever, but the shooting ability would be quite useful against non metal armored opponents.
Wiley.
Actually I would dispute that! Both the Japanese and Chinese found that simple silk could stop an arrow fired from any bow,then add in simple paper armour and the combatant was almost impervious to arrows fired at him.
The paper armour was multiple layers and made of overlapping scales,like those of a "Dragon" and the silk was a simple cape that was fastened around the neck and attached to the waist or legs and would billow out like a parachute.This would catch and trap the arrow,I've seen it demonstrated and to my amazement it was quite effective!
As for splitting an arrow,well I suppose it could be done but the grain of the wood used in the arrow would have to be exceptionally straight or it would turn the striking arrow off to one side or the other.
I do agree with Batty,while impressive I would rather a heavy longbow delivering and heavy arrow with an impressive bodkin,or sharpened spoon head....... :devil
Hopefully one of these days I'll get that string made for the bow I'm building. I need to till it down somewhat as it pulls over 70lbs at 22 inches and I can feel it flex in the handle area.Oh and I need to locate a few choice feathers to fletch my arrows.
:salute
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John! Send me a mailing address and I will send you a bundle of goose feathers, left or right wing up to you. You'd have to cut them up yourself but I imagine you would relish the task.
Sharpened spoons are the mutt's nuts :D
here is a bow I have been working on today Morf, The flat spot on the lower limb needs steam bending, the stave was kinked in two places on that limb. The balance is perfect despite the apparent inequality. If I was to till the lower limb any further I would have to reduce the whole bow down by about 10#
This picture shows about 20-22" of draw with a weight of about 80#. When she is finished and sealed she will draw to the ear hopefully around 100#@28"
(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p620/monkeyfarmer/PICT0024_zps855bbbfb.jpg)
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Actually I would dispute that! Both the Japanese and Chinese found that simple silk could stop an arrow fired from any bow,then add in simple paper armour and the combatant was almost impervious to arrows fired at him.
The paper armour was multiple layers and made of overlapping scales,like those of a "Dragon" and the silk was a simple cape that was fastened around the neck and attached to the waist or legs and would billow out like a parachute.This would catch and trap the arrow,I've seen it demonstrated and to my amazement it was quite effective!
Hmp! By what I'd read, the silk was mostly there to aid in extraction. Wonder what kind of tips they were using...
As for splitting an arrow,well I suppose it could be done but the grain of the wood used in the arrow would have to be exceptionally straight or it would turn the striking arrow off to one side or the other.
I was always under the impression straight grain was pretty much a necessity for consistency. Also to have any imperfections pointing upward when the arrow goes forward so if it does happen to give, the break will go upward away from fleshy bleedy bits like your hand.
I do agree with Batty,while impressive I would rather a heavy longbow delivering and heavy arrow with an impressive bodkin,or sharpened spoon head....... :devil
Hopefully one of these days I'll get that string made for the bow I'm building. I need to till it down somewhat as it pulls over 70lbs at 22 inches and I can feel it flex in the handle area.Oh and I need to locate a few choice feathers to fletch my arrows.
:salute
Hehe... Not saying there aren't better options for pitched open warfare with full on armor, but it is not completely useless either.
What kind of string?
Wiley.
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Thx for the offer Batty but in a couple months the Canada geese will be everywhere and going into molt so it's just a matter of dropping by the local park and picking a few up!
She's got quite the kink! you could try dry heat bending it if you dont have a steamer and if you want drop my an email and I can help with building a cheap steamer for bows!
Willey, I suppose it depends on what the arrow is made from,obviously modern built wooden arrows use straight grains but that wasnt always the case. Many homemade arrows start from flatstock wood so you may get some runoff grains. My main point was if all things were perfect I'm sure a highly skilled archer could split an arrow but as you said it would be like shooting a pill out of the sky! :rofl
Yes I also read the silk"chute" was bright and had designs to make them targeted but that doesnt change the fact that it actually stopped and arrow. As for the point they had IIRC a normal field point on a wooden arrow as they used a real person on horseback to test the theory. The silk was able to trap the arrow and displace it's energy,how effective it was against multiple arrows is debatable but it was the first line of defense used with some type of armour,leather,paper, etc.
As for type of string,I plan a flemish twist,I've tried a couple of the new fibers but I want to go with tried and true dacron. I have considered using other "natural" fibers but it seems too much trouble.
BTW Batty,I'm in no hurry,it's the journey thats important not where you end up!
:salute