Author Topic: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery  (Read 1438 times)

Offline Charge

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2013, 02:21:02 AM »
Putting a word in for poor Legolas I'd think the Silvan longbow had a bit more draw weight than a short bow optimized for speed shooting and piercing cardboard, not orcs...  ;)

Estimates for the draw of these bows varies considerably. Before the recovery of the Mary Rose, Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimated the bows of the Medieval period drew 90–110 pounds-force (400–490 newtons), maximum, and Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believed the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80–90 lbf (360–400 N).[9] Other sources suggest significantly higher draw weights. The original draw forces of examples from the Mary Rose are estimated by Hardy at 150–160 lbf (670–710 N) at a 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length; the full range of draw weights was between 100–185 lbf (440–820 N).[10] The 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length was used because that is the length allowed by the arrows commonly found on the Mary Rose.

A modern longbow's draw is typically 60 lbf (270 N) or less, and by modern convention measured at 28 inches (71.1 cm). Historically, hunting bows usually had draw weights of 50–60 lbf (220–270 N), which is enough for all but the very largest game and which most reasonably fit adults can manage with practice. Today, there are few modern longbowmen capable of using 180–185 lbf (800–820 N) bows accurately.[11][12]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2013, 06:09:01 AM »
Elves are such cheats...
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2013, 10:31:21 AM »
I'm guessing he's using a pinch draw, rather than a Mediterranean or Mongolian draw/hold.  The pinch draw wasn't uncommon, and it allowed for very quick "indexing" of the nock against the string.

I also suspect he's using an arrow with a different nock style.  Most of us are most familiar with Mediterranean finger holds, and arrows nocked appropriately for that method, but that's far from the only style of nock/hold used traditionally.

With a pinch grip, and a more bulbous, shallow-notched, "cross-nocked" arrow he'd be able to almost ignore the need to line the nock up with the string.  He'd hold multiple arrows in his hand, and just open his thumb to slide the string into his hand, pinch the arrow, and draw, allowing the string to fall into place on the nock on its own.

Imagine a nock that doesn't look so much like a slotted screw on the end, but rather closer to a phillips head screw.  More like this --> (+) than this --> (l).  The notches wouldn't be nearly as deep-cut as we're accustomed to either.

These types of nocks were also more common amongst horse-mounted archers, who might have had difficulty lining up a slotted nock on a bouncing, moving horse.  With these types of nocks, you would also likely see a 2- or 4- fletched arrow, rather than a three-fletched arrow with one fletch being a different color...

The type of archery shown sacrifices accuracy for speed, so the deeper nock and using a fletch to index the arrow on the string goes right out the window.
very interesting...thank you for the information. didn't realize there were different nock styles or that there were names for them. i'm going to have to look for nocks like that when i purchase arrows for small game.
jarhed  
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2013, 12:18:44 PM »
I'm guessing he's using a pinch draw, rather than a Mediterranean or Mongolian draw/hold.  The pinch draw wasn't uncommon, and it allowed for very quick "indexing" of the nock against the string.

It's what it looked like to me on the video.  Was kind of hard to tell but it looked to me like he was pinching between his thumb and forefinger, he might've been using a thumb ring, hard to tell from the video.

Quote
I also suspect he's using an arrow with a different nock style.  Most of us are most familiar with Mediterranean finger holds, and arrows nocked appropriately for that method, but that's far from the only style of nock/hold used traditionally.

With a pinch grip, and a more bulbous, shallow-notched, "cross-nocked" arrow he'd be able to almost ignore the need to line the nock up with the string.  He'd hold multiple arrows in his hand, and just open his thumb to slide the string into his hand, pinch the arrow, and draw, allowing the string to fall into place on the nock on its own.

Imagine a nock that doesn't look so much like a slotted screw on the end, but rather closer to a phillips head screw.  More like this --> (+) than this --> (l).  The notches wouldn't be nearly as deep-cut as we're accustomed to either.

Interesting.  Never heard of such a thing, but it makes sense.

Quote
These types of nocks were also more common amongst horse-mounted archers, who might have had difficulty lining up a slotted nock on a bouncing, moving horse.  With these types of nocks, you would also likely see a 2- or 4- fletched arrow, rather than a three-fletched arrow with one fletch being a different color...

The type of archery shown sacrifices accuracy for speed, so the deeper nock and using a fletch to index the arrow on the string goes right out the window.

As long as it was clearing the riser, I wouldn't think it would make much difference to accuracy, other than the speed he's doing it at.

I'd be really curious if his draw weight is posted somewhere...

Wiley.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2013, 02:11:03 PM »
I'd be surprised if it was more than 50 pounds. Most short bows aren't.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »
very odd style...instead of anchoring the bow and pulling the string back, he does a push/pull sort of thing. both arms are in motion...
jarhed  
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Offline lengro

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 03:25:12 PM »
Yes they used some text-to-voice software for the narration. It's probably for the best considering how Danes sound when trying to speak English...

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2013, 03:38:18 PM »
Have en lille en...  :cheers:
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Offline lengro

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2013, 03:51:04 PM »
Have en lille en...  :cheers:

Lψfter glasset mod nord - og skεl til dig...  :cheers:
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2013, 07:52:35 PM »
It's what it looked like to me on the video.  Was kind of hard to tell but it looked to me like he was pinching between his thumb and forefinger, he might've been using a thumb ring, hard to tell from the video.


He's placing the arrow on the correct side of the bow for a right-handed thumb draw, but on the wrong side for a Mediterranean draw.  If he's using a thumb ring, I'd expect him to have the arrow on the left side of the bow?  

A pinch draw could be used either way.

Looking at his film closer, he's using modified plastic nocks; not the type I was referring to earlier.  He's just heated and flared his out.  He's probably filed grooves in front of the nocks too, to allow him to index the nocks in his right hand between his fingers.  The combination would allow him to shoot pretty dang fast with a thumb draw (but it pretty much rules out a pinch draw).
MtnMan

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Offline Wiley

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2013, 10:24:36 AM »


He's placing the arrow on the correct side of the bow for a right-handed thumb draw, but on the wrong side for a Mediterranean draw.  If he's using a thumb ring, I'd expect him to have the arrow on the left side of the bow?  


Though I've never looked at it that hard, from what I can recall reading up on it the thumb ring draw uses the opposite side from the Mediterranean draw as well.  Just to be clear on terminology, I assume a Mediterranean draw is the standard 3 finger, one above 2 below?
I might've been looking at a pinch draw when I thought I was looking at a thumb ring draw though.  This was in the late 80s/early 90s, pre-Internet for me.

I spent a lot of time looking at release technique when I used to shoot a compound.  I wound up drawing with 3 fingers, then dropping to only holding it with my middle finger after the weight slackened at full draw.  It worked awfully well.  Then I switched to traditional and never looked back.

What he's doing there is slightly intriguing to me, but I don't have access to a right side shelf bow.

Wiley.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2013, 08:31:02 PM »
Though I've never looked at it that hard, from what I can recall reading up on it the thumb ring draw uses the opposite side from the Mediterranean draw as well.  Just to be clear on terminology, I assume a Mediterranean draw is the standard 3 finger, one above 2 below?
I might've been looking at a pinch draw when I thought I was looking at a thumb ring draw though.  This was in the late 80s/early 90s, pre-Internet for me.

I spent a lot of time looking at release technique when I used to shoot a compound.  I wound up drawing with 3 fingers, then dropping to only holding it with my middle finger after the weight slackened at full draw.  It worked awfully well.  Then I switched to traditional and never looked back.

What he's doing there is slightly intriguing to me, but I don't have access to a right side shelf bow.

Wiley.

Yes, Mediterranean is generally one finger above, two below.  It can also be one above/one below, or all three below, and there are various anchor points used (top finger at corner of mouth, middle finger at corner of mouth etc.).

With the Med draw, the draw usually starts with the string in or near the first crease of the fingers, but at anchor the string is usually a bit further out (about half way between the crease and the finger tip).  This has the effect of rolling the string a bit during the draw.  For a right-handed archer, the roll of the string is clockwise as viewed from above, so with the arrow placed on the left side of the bow the roll will have the effect of "holding" the arrow against the bow.  If you placed it on the right side of the bow though, it would have the effect of pulling the arrow away from the bow, causing it to fall off of the shelf.  Of course, with the arrow on the left, and the roll of the string working as it should, you can still make the arrow fall off of the shelf if you have errors with the draw (generally, I'll see "cupping" of the string hand, or too much tension in that hand, etc...).

With a thumb draw though, the roll/rotation of the string is reversed.  For a right-handed shooter (holding the bow in the left hand) the rotation of the string is counter-clockwise as viewed from above.  Placing the arrow on the left side of the bow will cause the arrow to fall of of the shelf, but placing it on the right will cause the rotation to hold the arrow against the shelf.

So, a right-handed shooter would place the arrow on the left with a Med draw, or on the right with a thumb draw.

However, a thumb ring changes things again.  Being as smooth as it is, and "hooking" the string, it doesn't impart the rotation to the string the same way.  Generally it doesn't twist the string much at all, so the arrow could be placed on either side and held in place with a slight cant (tilt) of the bow.

This shooter shown is holding multiple arrows in his right hand at the same time, and he never crosses the arrow over the upper limb to place it on the left side.  he's placing the arrows against the right side.  This leads me to believe he's probably using a thumb draw, and I suspect without a thumb ring.

I started out shooting traditional as a kid, but mostly with recurves.  I then "progressed to shooting compounds, and was even an archery instructor for a few years.  Eventually, I went back to traditional, and went to longbows instead.  My primary interest is in native american archery.  I hand-craft my own arrows, leather equipment, and even knap arrowheads now and again (but they're illegal to hunt with here).  I've made my own bows too; wooden self bows as well as laminated wood or wood and fiberglass bows.
MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2013, 08:37:58 PM »
very odd style...instead of anchoring the bow and pulling the string back, he does a push/pull sort of thing. both arms are in motion...

This is known as a push-pull draw, and is common with traditional shooters.

You're probably more familiar with a set-arm arm draw, but there's also a locked-arm swing draw.

With compound shooters, the set-arm draw is by far the most common.  Traditional shooters may use it too (I often do while hunting) but more commonly use a push-pull draw.  One of the big "secrets" to success with traditional equipment is "pushing" the bow hand toward the target (physically and mentally).  If you forget to do that, you often have arrows going all over the place...  The push-pull method really helps with that.  I use it whenever I can, but it can sometimes be difficult to get away with in a deer hunting situation (more movement involved).
MtnMan

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Offline macleod01

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2013, 01:37:57 PM »
:furious

Lengro, after hearing you on vox, I don't blame them for needing text to vox translation!
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Offline saggs

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Re: Reinventing the fastest forgotten archery
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2013, 03:35:48 PM »
Everyone speculating about draw weight...  did ya'll have a reading comprehension fail?  He states it clearly in the credits at the end.

"2 rebuilt KAYA bows 30, 35 pounds." 

Interesting technique, but like was pointed out, he's sacrificing accuracy for speed, not saying this wasn't how it was done though.  I'm sure military archers or yore had different bows and techniques for different situations.  I imagine a mounted archer would be devastating in close quarters with this technique and a light draw weight bow, at the same time I'm sure they utilized much heavier bows shooting from distance.  In modern terms kind of like a 9mm SMG to a precision bolt action .338LM.