Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FLOOB on November 25, 2013, 10:56:09 AM
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Worth watching. Allied WWII pilots talking tactics vs the dusseldorks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSU_T3VM22g
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Anyone have any idea precisely what it is in the wing of the Fw 190 at the start of the clip which explodes? I've seen a number of guncam sequences where something in the Wurger's wing goes boom, have never figured out what.
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My guess is the magazine.
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Worth watching. Allied WWII pilots talking tactics vs the dusseldorks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSU_T3VM22g
The Pony is obviously porked...
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Anyone have any idea precisely what it is in the wing of the Fw 190 at the start of the clip which explodes? I've seen a number of guncam sequences where something in the Wurger's wing goes boom, have never figured out what.
cannon rounds
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Narrator: "The P47D and M models could tackle any Luftwaffe fighter in any type of dogfight."
:headscratch:
That is entirely opinionated statement. We all know it is the skill of the pilot that is supreme, not the plane. I doubt the top Allied pilots would choose the P47D or M as their first choice vs a top LW pilot. I suppose that one could argue at bombers altitude P47 could prove to be superior in many ways. No offense Thunderbolt afficianados, it was a great plane, but dogfighter?
Later on...
The P-38L "could outdive, outrun, outturn and outgun" the Luftwaffe
The P51 "could outturn the Germans"
What rubbish. I'm sorry, I know, I wasn't there and I have never flown said aircraft, however this is terribly biased stuff.
To the victor goes the spoils, in this case the history apparently.
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He was talking about the p38L with its hydraulic assisted controls. You'll notice that when they talk about the earlier models of p38 aperantly it was such a huge pos that it wasn't even as good as the German planes. I have no doubt that the p51 could out turn 109s and 190s, duh.
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He was talking about the p38L with its hydraulic assisted controls. You'll notice that when they talk about the earlier models of p38 aperantly it was such a huge pos that it wasn't even as good as the German planes. I have no doubt that the p51 could out turn 109s and 190s, duh.
P-38K.... That's all I have to say.
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That is entirely opinionated statement. We all know it is the skill of the pilot that is supreme, not the plane. I doubt the top Allied pilots would choose the P47D or M as their first choice vs a top LW pilot.
I would be remiss if I did not point out that your post is also a "opinionated statement".
Now for one of my own:
It is true the skill of a pilot is important...but other factors come into play as well. Relative numbers of opponents, E advantages, strengths and weaknesses of the opposing fighters, etc. are also equally important. The best pilot on earth will (usually) die if at a significant tactical disadvantage due to the situation, number of opponents, quality of his equipment, etc. He may take a few with him...but he will die just the same. "Quantity has a quality all its own" is as true now as it was 2500 years ago at Thermopylae.
Just sayin'... :D
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"How did you get shot down, Colonel?"
"We'll it was five to one, I got four."
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I find it interesting they said "allied fighters could out turn them [109]" In game, that seems to not be true... Only me?
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I dont think the P51 could out turn a 109 in real life. Just by sure weight and dynamics of what each plane was used for. You certainly wouldnt be seeing a P38 in a turn fight with a 109, however yes it did outdive and out run the 109s.
The concept of most allied fighters was to be fast fly for a long time, and carry lots of ord. Most of the Germans and japs made their planes more for dogfighting and intercepting which generally made them better turners. The 190s had the firepower and engine for big bomber intercepts which made them heavy, so a P51 could generally out maneuver and use better E tactics against the 190. It wasn't until the 190D that gave the p51 a harder time because they were made to catch P51s.
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I dont think the P51 could out turn a 109 in real life. Just by sure weight and dynamics of what each plane was used for. You certainly wouldnt be seeing a P38 in a turn fight with a 109, however yes it did outdive and out run the 109s.
The concept of most allied fighters was to be fast fly for a long time, and carry lots of ord. Most of the Germans and japs made their planes more for dogfighting and intercepting which generally made them better turners. The 190s had the firepower and engine for big bomber intercepts which made them heavy, so a P51 could generally out maneuver and use better E tactics against the 190. It wasn't until the 190D that gave the p51 a harder time because they were made to catch P51s.
The P-51 pilots in the video disagreed...
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The P-51 pilots in the video disagreed...
I think speed plays a factor here. By AH modeling the P51 turns great when fast....better than the 109...add in a notch of flap and it turns even better.
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Well just doesn't seem logical, but it could also depend on the pilots skills/ training as well. I cant watch the Vid at work. But this is the first time i've heard a p51 could out turn a 109 in a stall fight. Especially since the 109s were crafted to fight the agile spitfires as well.
and yeah thats very true fulc.. they could be a huge factor.
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Especially since the 109s were crafted to fight the agile spitfires as well.
:headscratch:
The first 109 flew almost one year before the Spitfire, and the basic design concept was never changed when Spitifres appeared.
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damn i've just been lawyered :lol
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damn i've just been lawyered :lol
Lol!
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Still need to see some specs on p51 vs 109 in turn fight.. but i'm fairly sure the 109 would win that category. Just because of what each plane was designed to do performance wise...
Well lusche they did have the hurricane to worry about too.
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Still need to see some specs on p51 vs 109 in turn fight.. but i'm fairly sure the 109 would win that category. Just because of what each plane was designed to do performance wise...
Well lusche they did have the hurricane to worry about too.
Not trying to argue, but if you don't have specs, how can you be so sure? I don't know that's for sure, but after watching the video, it's pretty clear the folks that were there thought differently than you, or how the game models the planes. It could be a function of operating alt, speed, talent at the time, lots of things. Them's that were there said more than once in the video they "didn't want to get into a turn fight with us. We could pull lead on them in just a few turns."
That said, I am fine with how the game is modeled, it's a game...
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I think the models should reflect reality. If the Pony could turn inside the 109 then that's how it should be in-game.
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"How did you get shot down, Colonel?"
"We'll it was five to one, I got four."
Red Dawn.
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Red Dawn.
We have a winner!
:)
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Lets get back to the P38 for a minute. The article says the P38L was, " . . . also fitted, as was a tail warning radar."
I want that. Off to the wish list.
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I think speed plays a factor here. By AH modeling the P51 turns great when fast....better than the 109...add in a notch of flap and it turns even better.
This^
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Indeed mine is an opinionated statement. However it is also a largely accepted "opinion" that superior skill will best inferior regardless of the weapon in hand. Yes way outnumbered will change the dynamic quite a bit.
This is the first account I've seen that describes the P51D as a highly capable turner. Not to say there aren't more...
I've read numerous LW that differ considerably from a lot of these contentions put forth. I would contend the majority of 109's were more concerned about Spitfires, where (maybe?) 190s concerned more with the US ac.
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I find it interesting they said "allied fighters could out turn them [109]" In game, that seems to not be true... Only me?
Lot of things in this game happen that would not in real life...........LOTS :O
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Nevermind.
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Narrator: "The P47D and M models could tackle any Luftwaffe fighter in any type of dogfight."
:headscratch:
That is entirely opinionated statement. We all know it is the skill of the pilot that is supreme, not the plane. I doubt the top Allied pilots would choose the P47D or M as their first choice vs a top LW pilot. I suppose that one could argue at bombers altitude P47 could prove to be superior in many ways. No offense Thunderbolt afficianados, it was a great plane, but dogfighter?
Later on...
The P-38L "could outdive, outrun, outturn and outgun" the Luftwaffe
The P51 "could outturn the Germans"
What rubbish. I'm sorry, I know, I wasn't there and I have never flown said aircraft, however this is terribly biased stuff.
To the victor goes the spoils, in this case the history apparently.
True what you are saying. But remember this.
They were out turning the 109 in a 38 to the left.. I don't care who you are if you are in a stall fight in 109 you will notice that engine torque will snap you around in right hand turn at extremely low speed. Listen to what he is saying. They were turning those 109s in right hand turns under 80 mph. There is no way that 109 will stay with you, especially if it is a k4.
3 Most P-51 battles started at high speed with the 109. If P 51 can get a 109 compressing it is extremely easy to get on there six. Also remember that the P-51b is a extremely good in a Turn fight. A p51 in skilled hands can do it especially with high speed flaps. More important was the fact that toward the end of the war most of Luft. pilots were nubes.
4 In the game, most people are average pilots in the fact that we fly so many different planes. Try flying just on plane for a month and see how much better you perform. Much less for a year. Each plane has little secrets to flying it to the edge of it's performance.
5 that is not the first time I have heard these things from vets. ONe of my good friends flew 51 in 44 and he says the same thing. One of the other things was a lot of time the 51 had less fuel, were as the 109s had quite a bit on bored at the time of engagement. He said the more time the war went on the average caplablities of the German pilot declined because of lack of experience were as the Allied pilots had more experience. Theatrically the 109 could out turn a 51 but in real life it was a toss up .
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To clarify, I'm not speaking about anything "in game."
However, at the same I do realize that HT has taken the greatest efforts to yield a near real life simulation based on each aircraft's available/applicable data.
What I'm saying is go read more LW accounts before you close the book and finally, come to your own conclusions.
:salute
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To clarify, I'm not speaking about anything "in game."
However, at the same I do realize that HT has taken the greatest efforts to yield a near real life simulation based on each aircraft's available/applicable data.
What I'm saying is go read more LW accounts before you close the book and finally, come to your own conclusions.
:salute
+1 HTC has made a great flight sim
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I've met two P-38 pilots both of whom flew in Italy and they both said they could out turn the 109's just by cutting power to the one side. As for the 51. People have stated over the years, it wasn't the best at anything. But it was the fact that it was good enough at EVERYTHING. We all know the K-4 out climbs it, and the 190 out rolls it. And bla bla, IMO ya high speed and one notch of flaps the 51 will out turn it.
After that, it's all pilot.
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True what you are saying. But remember this.
They were out turning the 109 in a 38 to the left.. I don't care who you are if you are in a stall fight in 109 you will notice that engine torque will snap you around in right hand turn at extremely low speed. Listen to what he is saying. They were turning those 109s in right hand turns under 80 mph. There is no way that 109 will stay with you, especially if it is a k4.
3 Most P-51 battles started at high speed with the 109. If P 51 can get a 109 compressing it is extremely easy to get on there six. Also remember that the P-51b is a extremely good in a Turn fight. A p51 in skilled hands can do it especially with high speed flaps. More important was the fact that toward the end of the war most of Luft. pilots were nubes.
In ah the p51d out turns the p51b. You can verify this with bootstrap. Nube means African American, it's slang for Nubian.
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Anyone have any idea precisely what it is in the wing of the Fw 190 at the start of the clip which explodes? I've seen a number of guncam sequences where something in the Wurger's wing goes boom, have never figured out what.
The 190s had wing spar weaknesses even without getting shot to pieces. I believe I read that the pilots were restricted on flight speed and g-load because of this flaw.
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You certainly wouldnt be seeing a P38 in a turn fight with a 109, however yes it did outdive and out run the 109s.
Are you sure about that? This is from an AAR of a P-38 pilot from the 370th FG describing a dogfight with a few Bf 109s that bounced them from above.
Lt. Royal Madden 370th FG, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
ack-ack
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It's interesting to hear Allied pilots opinions of their aircraft and their superiority over the German rides considering how far down Wikipedia's list of WWII Aces you have to go before you find somebody who isn't German much less find somebody who is American.
I am certainly glad that my side won but I am of the opinion that it was the lack of serviceable aircraft, properly trained replacement pilots, and poor decision making by Luftwaffe command, combined with the overwhelming numbers of planes they were facing that won the day.
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It's interesting to hear Allied pilots opinions of their aircraft and their superiority over the German rides considering how far down Wikipedia's list of WWII Aces you have to go before you find somebody who isn't German much less find somebody who is American.
I am certainly glad that my side won but I am of the opinion that it was the lack of serviceable aircraft, properly trained replacement pilots, and poor decision making by Luftwaffe command, combined with the overwhelming numbers of planes they were facing that won the day.
now I agree with you Germany had great pilots, but the fact that kill volume is somehow your way of saying who is good or not...
I go skeet shooting with 2 guys (when I have funds) not often, but I out shoot my good dear friends most every time. God help them, they have always shot more often, they should be better..
As my name would state, I'm a Heartman fan, but the fact that he had a lot of easy targets can't be denied. Read his book, and he even had a honey hole shooting guys from a training field.
That being said we also know most Germans and Russians never rotated home, they flew 1-2hr missions sometimes 5-6 times a day. And Americans who flew 1 mission and averaged less than one per day, and had even at the end they only had a max of under 100missions.
So to say U.S. Pilots or aircraft are somehow not as good, is just silly.
Case in point, I'm willing to bet I'm better than you in game, but my PC broke, and I'd rather make sure my child is well cared for befor I fix my toy.
(Who cares if this is a correct statement) reverse me for you, if it makes you feel better. But that's what your implying with your statement of Aces.
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now I agree with you Germany had great pilots, but the fact that kill volume is somehow your way of saying who is good or not...
I go skeet shooting with 2 guys (when I have funds) not often, but I out shoot my good dear friends most every time. God help them, they have always shot more often, they should be better..
As my name would state, I'm a Heartman fan, but the fact that he had a lot of easy targets can't be denied. Read his book, and he even had a honey hole shooting guys from a training field.
That being said we also know most Germans and Russians never rotated home, they flew 1-2hr missions sometimes 5-6 times a day. And Americans who flew 1 mission and averaged less than one per day, and had even at the end they only had a max of under 100missions.
So to say U.S. Pilots or aircraft are somehow not as good, is just silly.
You mean Erich Hartmann? Kind of hard to tell what you are saying, the last
Case in point, I'm willing to bet I'm better than you in game, but my PC broke, and I'd rather make sure my child is well cared for befor I fix my toy.
(Who cares if this is a correct statement) reverse me for you, if it makes you feel better. But that's what your implying with your statement of Aces.
You mean Erich Hartmann? Kind of hard to tell what you are saying in the end. I was with you up 'til the last part and now I'm not sure anymore.
A fact being neglected is having two of your three top bosses addicted to drugs and looney out their minds was probably not a good thing for LW pilots.
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I am Hartmann
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I am Hartmann
Sure you are Bubi. ;)
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I am Hartmann
No, I'm Spartacus!