Author Topic: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!  (Read 1748 times)

Offline Lusche

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2013, 12:02:24 PM »
Especially since the 109s were crafted to fight the agile spitfires as well.

 :headscratch:

The first 109 flew almost one year before the Spitfire, and the basic design concept was never changed when Spitifres appeared.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2013, 12:08:06 PM »
damn i've just been lawyered  :lol
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2013, 12:42:34 PM »
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2013, 01:13:56 PM »
Still need to see some specs on p51 vs 109 in turn fight.. but i'm fairly sure the 109 would win that category. Just because of what each plane was designed to do performance wise...

Well lusche they did have the hurricane to worry about too.
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Offline Scca

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2013, 01:41:05 PM »
Still need to see some specs on p51 vs 109 in turn fight.. but i'm fairly sure the 109 would win that category. Just because of what each plane was designed to do performance wise...

Well lusche they did have the hurricane to worry about too.
Not trying to argue, but if you don't have specs, how can you be so sure?  I don't know that's for sure, but after watching the video, it's pretty clear the folks that were there thought differently than you, or how the game models the planes.  It could be a function of operating alt, speed, talent at the time, lots of things.  Them's that were there said more than once in the video they "didn't want to get into a turn fight with us.  We could pull lead on them in just a few turns."

That said, I am fine with how the game is modeled, it's a game...
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2013, 01:48:28 PM »
I think the models should reflect reality. If the Pony could turn inside the 109 then that's how it should be in-game.
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2013, 02:15:22 PM »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2013, 02:15:55 PM »
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Offline Randy1

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2013, 02:58:51 PM »
Lets get back to the P38 for a minute. The article says the P38L was, " . . . also fitted, as was a tail warning radar."

I want that.  Off to the wish list.

Offline pangea

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2013, 03:09:54 PM »
I think speed plays a factor here.  By AH modeling the P51 turns great when fast....better than the 109...add in a notch of flap and it turns even better.




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Offline RotBaron

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2013, 12:48:41 AM »
Indeed mine is an opinionated statement. However it is also a largely accepted "opinion" that superior skill will best inferior regardless of the weapon in hand. Yes way outnumbered will change the dynamic quite a bit.

This is the first account I've seen that describes the P51D as a highly capable turner. Not to say there aren't more...

I've read numerous LW that differ considerably from a lot of these contentions put forth. I would contend the majority of 109's were more concerned about Spitfires, where (maybe?) 190s concerned more with the US ac.
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Offline HawkerMKII

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2013, 05:57:24 AM »
I find it interesting they said "allied fighters could out turn them [109]"  In game, that seems to not be true...  Only me?

Lot of things in this game happen that would not in real life...........LOTS :O
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Offline ntrudr

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2013, 11:03:31 AM »
Nevermind.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 11:06:15 AM by ntrudr »

Offline wpeters

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2013, 11:12:07 AM »
Narrator: "The P47D and M models could tackle any Luftwaffe fighter in any type of dogfight."  

 :headscratch:


That is entirely opinionated statement. We all know it is the skill of the pilot that is supreme, not the plane. I doubt the top Allied pilots would choose the P47D or M as their first choice vs a top LW pilot. I suppose that one could argue at bombers altitude P47 could prove to be superior in many ways.  No offense Thunderbolt afficianados, it was a great plane, but dogfighter?

Later on...

The P-38L "could outdive, outrun, outturn and outgun" the Luftwaffe

The P51 "could outturn the Germans"

What rubbish. I'm sorry, I know, I wasn't there and I have never flown said aircraft, however this is terribly biased stuff.

To the victor goes the spoils, in this case the history apparently.


True what you are saying.  But remember this.

They were out turning the 109 in a 38 to the left..  I don't care who you are if you are in a stall fight in 109 you will notice that engine torque will snap you around in right hand turn at extremely low speed.   Listen to what he is saying. They were turning those 109s in right hand turns under 80 mph.  There is no way that 109 will stay with you, especially if it is a k4.

3  Most P-51 battles started at high speed with the 109. If P 51 can get a 109 compressing it is extremely easy to get on there six.  Also remember that the P-51b is a extremely good in a Turn fight.  A p51 in skilled hands can do it especially with high speed flaps.  More important was the fact that toward the end of the war most of Luft. pilots were nubes.  

4 In the game, most people are average pilots in the fact that we fly so many different planes.  Try flying just on plane for a month and see how much better you perform. Much less for a year. Each plane has little secrets to flying it to the edge of it's performance.

5 that is not the first time I have heard these things from vets. ONe of my good friends flew 51 in 44 and he says the same thing.  One of the other things was a lot of time the 51 had less fuel, were as the 109s had quite a bit on bored at the time of engagement.  He said the more time the war went on the average caplablities of the German pilot declined because of lack of experience were as the Allied pilots had more experience.  Theatrically the 109 could out turn a 51 but in real life it was a toss up .  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 11:14:10 AM by wpeters »
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Offline RotBaron

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Re: WWII fighter tactics monkey floggers!
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2013, 01:39:35 PM »
To clarify, I'm not speaking about anything "in game."

However, at the same I do realize that HT has taken the greatest efforts to yield a near real life simulation based on each aircraft's available/applicable data.

What I'm saying is go read more LW accounts before you close the book and finally, come to your own conclusions.

 :salute
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