Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: perdue3 on December 12, 2013, 01:10:07 AM
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Anyone?
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No.
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Yes because you cannot type math on the computer.
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math
Hey, I got it!
Poor, poor, Schlowy.
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Depends on the respective volumes. The question you should be asking is spruce denser than aluminum :devil.
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I know aluminum is more dense, but does that make it heavier?
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He might mean, given a part of equal strength (like a spruce wing spar vs. an aluminum wing spar), which is lighter?
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It depends on the application and required types and values of loads but it can be, yes.
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I know aluminum is more dense, but does that make it heavier?
Yes, if objects are of the same volume (size), then the denser object is heavier.
Aluminum is about 5-6 times denser than spruce, so given equal volumes, aluminum is much heavier.
However, if you are talking about volumes based on achieving an equal strength between the materials, then it gets much more complicated. As Shida said, that all depends on the application and types of forces/stresses being applied.
Here's an interesting article comparing light aircraft construction materials, with charts and numbers for the math wizards:
http://exp-aircraft.com/library/heintz/material.html
<S>
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Wood has most of its strength in one direction and is strong in compression in this direction only. Aluminium is much better than wood in tension and for this reason it was used on the lower skins of the Mosquito's wings. The Mosquito had a very clever structure using inner and outer plywood skins separated by a balsa wood filler or longerons. Like most aluminium aircraft a lot of the loads were carried in this composite outer skin rather than through the internal structure.
Most Soviet fighters using wooden construction carried more of the loads internally which was less efficient. So when all metal versions of the La-7 and Yak-9 appeared after the war their skin was designed to take more of the loads and so their airframes were much lighter than their predecessors'.
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A tid bit. Concrete can weigh less per cubic foot than aluminum.
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\
It has been put to the test, no?
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm206/tomkwi/tomkwi2/SpruceGoose1.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/tomkwi/media/tomkwi2/SpruceGoose1.jpg.html)(http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q376/seauctions/april%202010%20art%20inventory/thesprucegoose.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/seauctions/media/april%202010%20art%20inventory/thesprucegoose.jpg.html)(http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a445/skyhawgs/T-Sport%20Pictures/IMGP2594.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/skyhawgs/media/T-Sport%20Pictures/IMGP2594.jpg.html)
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Oh my farking Jesus H Christmas!
aluminIum!
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Oh my farking Jesus H Christmas!
aluminIum!
NO! It's alOOminum! :bhead
:D
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Oh my farking Jesus H Christmas!
aluminIum!
From "A Short History of Nearly Everything," by Bryson:
"The confusion over the aluminum/aluminium spelling arose because of some uncharacteristic indecisiveness on Davy's [Humphry Davy's] part. When he first isolated the element in 1808, he called it 'alumium'. For some reason he thought better of that and changed it to 'aluminum' four years later. Americans dutifully adopted the new term, but many British users disliked 'aluminum', pointing out that it disrupted the '-ium' pattern established by sodium, calcium, and strontium, so they added a vowel and syllable."
So, you see that "aluminum" is the correct form if you go by what it was named by the man himself. :aok
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Stiffness to weight ratio for spruce is about the same as aluminum. However, stiffness to weight is not always the only thing that goes into materials decisions, depending on what properties you need and what the physical configuration of and use of the part is.
In the case of aircraft, spruce and other woods are obviously decent choices since they were used so much historically, including as pointed out in the Spruce Goose, and other woods in the Mossie.
Sometimes, though, the decision included that wood was available and aluminum was in short supply (a decision that did factor into choice for Mossie and maybe for the Spruce Goose, too).
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I knew someone called Bruce :old:
He was a bit overweight, he was not a colonial :old:
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smarmy Brits!
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The British following elemental naming conventions, shame on them. :rolleyes:
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The British following elemental naming conventions, shame on them. :rolleyes:
Maybe they should rename oxygen, copper, iron, argon, xenon, bromine, hydrogen, mercury, phosphorus, lead, gold, silver, carbon, tin, sulfur, zinc, arsenic, antimony, cobalt, nickel, bismuth, nitrogen, chlorine, manganese, tungsten, boron, iodine, silicon, and radon, then. (And they should add an "i" into "platinum", "molybdenum", "tantalum", and "lanthanum".)
There are many "-ium" element names and many that are not. Davy didn't pick "aluminium", and the British not only didn't pick what he did name it ("aluminum", which fits right in with "platinum", "molybdenum", "tantalum", and "lanthanum") but they didn't even go back to what he originally named it ("alumium") and instead made up their own name to fit their preferences for this one element.
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Also, as Davy was British, I guess I shouldn't say that the British decided to rename it, I should say that some portion of the British establishment decided to rename it.
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These days aluminum is lighter on the wallet than aircraft spruce.
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Below from KingPins reference:
As a rule of thumb, aluminum is three times heavier, but also three times stronger than wood. Steel is again three times heavier and stronger than aluminum.
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The "Spruce Goose" was actually made almost entirely of birch. :old:
http://www.evergreenmuseum.org/the-museum/aircraft-exhibits/the-spruce-goose/
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Can it be carried by a swallow?
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I think a pound of aluminium is much heavyer than a pound of spruce :rolleyes:
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Can it be carried by a swallow?
African or European?
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If I was building an aireoplane I wood use sprucium.
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As prasied by the great designers and builders, the best material is Unatainium.
Few have been able to acquire it. :D
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I think a pound of aluminium is much heavyer than a pound of spruce :rolleyes:
I think a 2x2x6 made of wood weights the same as a 2x2x6 made of aluminum :rolleyes:.
which reminds me of the old, what weights more a pound of gold or a pound of cotton. a pound of cotton weights more but an ounce of gold weights more than an ounce of cotton.
semp
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The British following elemental naming conventions, shame on them. :rolleyes:
Always wondered why y'alls pronounced it wrong.
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Bounder!
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As prasied by the great designers and builders, the best material is Unatainium.
Few have been able to acquire it. :D
Is that how Americans spell Unobtainium? :aok
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around here is its Aluminium.
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I think Colonials are very cute when they say 'aloominum'. Also 'polymeer', 'sodder' and 'ambidextrious' :)
All semantic fun-poking aside the question isn't as simple as it first appears. The Mosquito's fuselage for instance is a perfect application for composites, natural or otherwise, because it is a very rare thing: a true monocoque structure. The loads are distributed in the most elegant manner possible. Composites are very well disposed to monocoque construction while aluminium alloy is not.
If you were going to replace an alloy brake pedal, say, with a composite one then you would be smart to redesign a boxy-shaped version to exploit the attributes of the new material and not copy the obvious design when using alloy. This is why the original question is difficult to answer.
What was the purpose of the question by the way, was it over a dispute about aircraft construction?
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The mosquito construction made a very smart use of the fiber direction in the wood, matching it to the forces expected to apply on each section.
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One advantage of wood that de Haviland pointed out was that due to the larger size of the wing spar on the Mosquito, a chunk taken out of it by a bullet or a shell would represent a smaller percentage of the spar, and thus a smaller percentage of its strength, than the same chunk being taken out of an aluminum spar.
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oops :)
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Could use the "Witch logic" to find out
BEDEVERE: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2: Burn!
VILLAGER #1: Burn!
CROWD: Burn! Burn them up! Burn!…
BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1: More witches!
VILLAGER #3: Shh!
VILLAGER #2: Wood!
BEDEVERE: So, why do witches burn? [pause]
VILLAGER #3: B–… ’cause they’re made of… wood?
BEDEVERE: Good! Heh heh.
CROWD: Oh yeah. Oh.
BEDEVERE: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE: Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #1: Oh, yeah.
RANDOM: Oh, yeah. True. Uhh…
BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No. No.
VILLAGER #2: No, it floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond! Throw her into the pond!
BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Uh, very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Uh, gra– gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches! Churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead! Lead!
ARTHUR: A duck!
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEVERE: Exactly. So, logically…
VILLAGER #1: If… she… weighs… the same as a duck,… she’s made of wood.
BEDEVERE: And therefore?
VILLAGER #2: A witch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
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Spruce is lighter than Aluminium. Aluminum is lighter than Spruce.
End of discussion.